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CONTROVERSY AND CONSPIRACY – IT’S ALL IN YOUR HEAD

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Post by Derbymanc on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 10:25 am

First topic message reminder :

The last couple of weeks have seen two massive fights come off that have had us all salivating but unfortunately both seem to have left a dark stain with a lot of fans.

Vasyl Lomanchenko won this weekends bout with the heavy handed Walters in what some class as a strange ending, Walters refusing to come out for the 8th round, this led to more than a few people dubbing it the 2nd No Mas incident and accusing the fighter of lacking the heart when the going gets rough.(In this case the tough didn’t get going)
Whilst I can understand the sentiment it does ignore the fact that Walters was being bullied around the ring (something he’s not used to) and looked out of his depth against the possible future p4p king.

Maybe him and/or his corner decided enough was enough, (we’ve all shouted about how someone should stop a fight at some point) and that there was nothing going to happen other than a prolonged beating and/or a brutal knockout.

Yes it’s a disappointment and there was a slight chance Walters could find that one punch but if his mind-set had turned to ‘survival’ then it was never going to happen and he could have been seriously hurt. Hopefully he’ll go away, reassess, rebuild and be back again in the future.

Seemingly to some the biggest controversy ever in boxing happened the week before when Andre Ward won a razor thin decision against the big punching Sergey Kovalev, although you’d be forgiven for thinking that he won 12 rounds without throwing a punch if you’ve wandered online to discuss it. I’m not really sure why it’s caused such an upset throughout the boxing community as there was 1 point in it and in my opinion it could have gone either way.

Despite not being much of a fan of Ward (I’ll be honest I find him boring,) I had him 1 or 2 up by the end BUT if it had been given to Kovalev, I wouldn’t have been complaining the way some have.

continued at http://www.topclassboxing.co.uk/Articles/controversy_and_conspiracy_its_all_in_your_head.html

I know i know, i don't normally put a few up but what can i say i got nowt better to do, next up is the joys of coaching :-)

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 6:23 pm

A good starting point might be watching the fights instead of repeating what you've seen written elsewhere but hey you seem to base all your opinions on everything other than watching boxing.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 6:32 pm

lol

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Post by milkyboy on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 6:34 pm

BoxingFan88 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:a la Griffin? Behave.

The guy had decent success before cutting and running when RJJ started to get on top of him. Then got KTFO in the rematch.

Not sure I can even make sense of your second line....

That KO was an absolute peach

One of my favourite of all time

Like Lewis, its the ultimate revenge

Funnily, when I see that knock out, I wonder how a guy as defensively good as griffin got hit with that shot. He pulled back, misjudged the distance and couldn't go anywhere. Made himself a sitting duck.

Feel the same about kalambay getting stiffed by nunn. Just caught cold I guess.

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 6:46 pm

Nah Jones wasn't playing he went in there to destroy him

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Post by 88Chris05 on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 7:05 pm

Herman, you say that Jones was 'bang in his prime' in 2004 when Tarver flattened him. Stands to reason he wouldn't go from being absolutely prime to washed up in the space of a few months, so I'd guess you think he was still pretty much in his prime when Johnson put him down for the count as well. True?

So, Jones got walloped twice back-to-back in 2004 by two very good, but certainly not great fighters. And yet, for the previous twelve years consecutively he'd been toying with fighters of a similar level, and occasionally a higher one, time and time again without ever coming close to being starched like that.

Don't you think, then, that it's a bit strange that, after it never happening once in twelve years, it suddenly happened twice in one? Jones was either a) the jammiest and luckiest fighter in history between 1992 and 2003 to get away with it so many times when he was there for the taking, or b) seriously and rapidly starting to fall apart as a fighter by 2004. I know which one I think the evidence points to.

I ask this question to the really, really harsh Jones critics a lot, the ones who just say Tarver flattened him simply because Jones got found out finally facing a real fighter who had his number; in 2000, Tarver fought Eric Harding in an IBF eliminator. Harding beat him, and so got his shot at Roy. Predictably, although Harding caused Roy the odd stylistic issue early doors, Jones ended up beating him via a corner retirement without a great deal of hassle. So, had Tarver won that eliminator and got his fight with Roy in 2000, are you telling me you see it going the same way it did four years later (people do tend to forget he deservedly ground out a verdict over Tarver in their first fight despite looking appalling by his standards on the night)?

Just watch Jones any time up to Ruiz, particularly before or up to 2001-ish, and then compare how he looked against Tarver (even the first fight which he won) and Johnson. Two totally different animals, and all you need is a working pair of eyes to see it. You're having a laugh if you think Tarver and / or Johnson do that to a Jones anywhere around his peak, never mind bang in the middle of it.
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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 7:12 pm

His knockout of Hill was a thing of beauty too, one of the finest body shot stoppages you'll ever see.

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 7:48 pm

88Chris05 wrote:Herman, you say that Jones was 'bang in his prime' in 2004 when Tarver flattened him. Stands to reason he wouldn't go from being absolutely prime to washed up in the space of a few months, so I'd guess you think he was still pretty much in his prime when Johnson put him down for the count as well. True?

So, Jones got walloped twice back-to-back in 2004 by two very good, but certainly not great fighters. And yet, for the previous twelve years consecutively he'd been toying with fighters of a similar level, and occasionally a higher one, time and time again without ever coming close to being starched like that.

Don't you think, then, that it's a bit strange that, after it never happening once in twelve years, it suddenly happened twice in one? Jones was either a) the jammiest and luckiest fighter in history between 1992 and 2003 to get away with it so many times when he was there for the taking, or b) seriously and rapidly starting to fall apart as a fighter by 2004. I know which one I think the evidence points to.

I ask this question to the really, really harsh Jones critics a lot, the ones who just say Tarver flattened him simply because Jones got found out finally facing a real fighter who had his number; in 2000, Tarver fought Eric Harding in an IBF eliminator. Harding beat him, and so got his shot at Roy. Predictably, although Harding caused Roy the odd stylistic issue early doors, Jones ended up beating him via a corner retirement without a great deal of hassle. So, had Tarver won that eliminator and got his fight with Roy in 2000, are you telling me you see it going the same way it did four years later (people do tend to forget he deservedly ground out a verdict over Tarver in their first fight despite looking appalling by his standards on the night)?

Just watch Jones any time up to Ruiz, particularly before or up to 2001-ish, and then compare how he looked against Tarver (even the first fight which he won) and Johnson. Two totally different animals, and all you need is a working pair of eyes to see it. You're having a laugh if you think Tarver and / or Johnson do that to a Jones anywhere around his peak, never mind bang in the middle of it.

To be fair, injuries played a part in both Harding's win over Tarver (Tarver suffered a broken jaw and fractured ribs) and Harding's defeat to Jones (Harding suffered a torn bicep early in the contest and had to retire late). The Harding vs Tarver rematch was a far more one-sides affair (in Tarver's favour).

Jones was definitely going off by the time he faced Tarver - yet Tarver was probably the best light heavyweight he ever fought.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 7:50 pm

88Chris05 wrote:Herman, you say that Jones was 'bang in his prime' in 2004 when Tarver flattened him. Stands to reason he wouldn't go from being absolutely prime to washed up in the space of a few months, so I'd guess you think he was still pretty much in his prime when Johnson put him down for the count as well. True?

So, Jones got walloped twice back-to-back in 2004 by two very good, but certainly not great fighters. And yet, for the previous twelve years consecutively he'd been toying with fighters of a similar level, and occasionally a higher one, time and time again without ever coming close to being starched like that.

Don't you think, then, that it's a bit strange that, after it never happening once in twelve years, it suddenly happened twice in one? Jones was either a) the jammiest and luckiest fighter in history between 1992 and 2003 to get away with it so many times when he was there for the taking, or b) seriously and rapidly starting to fall apart as a fighter by 2004. I know which one I think the evidence points to.

I ask this question to the really, really harsh Jones critics a lot, the ones who just say Tarver flattened him simply because Jones got found out finally facing a real fighter who had his number; in 2000, Tarver fought Eric Harding in an IBF eliminator. Harding beat him, and so got his shot at Roy. Predictably, although Harding caused Roy the odd stylistic issue early doors, Jones ended up beating him via a corner retirement without a great deal of hassle. So, had Tarver won that eliminator and got his fight with Roy in 2000, are you telling me you see it going the same way it did four years later (people do tend to forget he deservedly ground out a verdict over Tarver in their first fight despite looking appalling by his standards on the night)?

Just watch Jones any time up to Ruiz, particularly before or up to 2001-ish, and then compare how he looked against Tarver (even the first fight which he won) and Johnson. Two totally different animals, and all you need is a working pair of eyes to see it. You're having a laugh if you think Tarver and / or Johnson do that to a Jones anywhere around his peak, never mind bang in the middle of it.

Kov batters Roy surely, Chris

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 7:53 pm

milkyboy wrote:
BoxingFan88 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:a la Griffin? Behave.

The guy had decent success before cutting and running when RJJ started to get on top of him. Then got KTFO in the rematch.

Not sure I can even make sense of your second line....

That KO was an absolute peach

One of my favourite of all time

Like Lewis, its the ultimate revenge

Funnily, when I see that knock out, I wonder how a guy as defensively good as griffin got hit with that shot. He pulled back, misjudged the distance and couldn't go anywhere. Made himself a sitting duck.

Feel the same about kalambay getting stiffed by nunn. Just caught cold I guess.

Good calls. Griffin and Sumbu were caught in horrible positions like when Barkley cracked Hearns, span back into position to punch and found himself directly above a 45 degree, falling Hearns. That second punch was absolutely brutal.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 7:55 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:
88Chris05 wrote:Herman, you say that Jones was 'bang in his prime' in 2004 when Tarver flattened him. Stands to reason he wouldn't go from being absolutely prime to washed up in the space of a few months, so I'd guess you think he was still pretty much in his prime when Johnson put him down for the count as well. True?

So, Jones got walloped twice back-to-back in 2004 by two very good, but certainly not great fighters. And yet, for the previous twelve years consecutively he'd been toying with fighters of a similar level, and occasionally a higher one, time and time again without ever coming close to being starched like that.

Don't you think, then, that it's a bit strange that, after it never happening once in twelve years, it suddenly happened twice in one? Jones was either a) the jammiest and luckiest fighter in history between 1992 and 2003 to get away with it so many times when he was there for the taking, or b) seriously and rapidly starting to fall apart as a fighter by 2004. I know which one I think the evidence points to.

I ask this question to the really, really harsh Jones critics a lot, the ones who just say Tarver flattened him simply because Jones got found out finally facing a real fighter who had his number; in 2000, Tarver fought Eric Harding in an IBF eliminator. Harding beat him, and so got his shot at Roy. Predictably, although Harding caused Roy the odd stylistic issue early doors, Jones ended up beating him via a corner retirement without a great deal of hassle. So, had Tarver won that eliminator and got his fight with Roy in 2000, are you telling me you see it going the same way it did four years later (people do tend to forget he deservedly ground out a verdict over Tarver in their first fight despite looking appalling by his standards on the night)?

Just watch Jones any time up to Ruiz, particularly before or up to 2001-ish, and then compare how he looked against Tarver (even the first fight which he won) and Johnson. Two totally different animals, and all you need is a working pair of eyes to see it. You're having a laugh if you think Tarver and / or Johnson do that to a Jones anywhere around his peak, never mind bang in the middle of it.

Kov batters Roy surely, Chris

The Roy of today sure.

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Post by 88Chris05 on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 7:58 pm

I know Harding's retirement was ostensibly down to a shoulder injury, Haz (although like Foreman, I'm sceptical about how serious it actually was and think that most damage was caused by Jones pummelling away at his shoulder to bring his guard down like he did). Point is, Harding was eventually outclassed and, in 2000, I think Tarver would have been in a similar manner. This was smack bang in the middle of the period where Jones was almost exclusively fighting southpaws, too, so it's not as if Tarver was likely to flummox him on that front.

Tarver the best 175 pounder that Jones fought? I'm not sure if Tarver was that much better than an unbeaten Griffin, perhaps not even as good as a 34 year old Hill. Reggie Johnson was in good form before losing to Roy, too. Either side of knocking Roy out, Tarver managed to let their first fight slip away when Jones was there for the taking and lost to the 'Road Warrior' before being outclassed by a 41 year old Hopkins. I guess it's not inconceivable, though.
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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 8:02 pm

88Chris05 wrote:I know Harding's retirement was ostensibly down to a shoulder injury, Haz (although like Foreman, I'm sceptical about how serious it actually was and think that most damage was caused by Jones pummelling away at his shoulder to bring his guard down like he did). Point is, Harding was eventually outclassed and, in 2000, I think Tarver would have been in a similar manner. This was smack bang in the middle of the period where Jones was almost exclusively fighting southpaws, too, so it's not as if Tarver was likely to flummox him on that front.

Tarver the best 175 pounder that Jones fought? I'm not sure if Tarver was that much better than an unbeaten Griffin, perhaps not even as good as a 34 year old Hill. Reggie Johnson was in good form before losing to Roy, too. Either side of knocking Roy out, Tarver managed to let their first fight slip away when Jones was there for the taking and lost to the 'Road Warrior' before being outclassed by a 41 year old Hopkins. I guess it's not inconceivable, though.

It sounds better saying he lost to the best Light Heavyweight he fought though Chris, doesn't fit into the right rhetoric to say that Jones actually beat better ones previously. Griffin, Hill and Reggie are the best he fought at the weight, Tarver is more in the Harding and old man McCallum region for me.

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Post by 88Chris05 on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 8:08 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:Kov batters Roy surely, Chris

Well even if he was the rightful winner the other week, he didn't 'batter' Ward. And as good, maybe great (that's a separate debate, let's not do it here!) as Ward is, Roy Jones he ain't.

I think Kovalev is an outstanding fighter. A top-ranked Light-Heavyweight at the least in any era. But Jones at his best was the 1964-67 Ali of the Middles / Light-Heavies. Not everyone will agree, but I think Jones was one of the most freakish fighters in history. His record might not stack up to his raw talent and ability (which doesn't mean it's a shallow record in its own right), but in a head-to-head I'd pick him to beat any 160 pounder in history barring a two or three who I'd put at 50:50, and even at 175 I wouldn't put him at anything worse than 40:60 against anyone.

I don't think Kovalev could beat Roy. I don't even put him in the same class of fighter as Roy. The point is, that's not an insult to Kovalev - it's a testament to how great Jones was.
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Post by AdamT on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 8:19 pm

My f.....g man Chris. No c..t from 160-168 beats Jones Jr. Spinks in recent times would maybe beat him at 175.

I will get flak for this, But Jones beats all the fab 4 at 160. Obviously 3 of the guys didn't start at middle. But no way could they beat a top form Jones. I think at his best, he really belongs in the GOAT debate.

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 8:34 pm

88Chris05 wrote:I know Harding's retirement was ostensibly down to a shoulder injury, Haz (although like Foreman, I'm sceptical about how serious it actually was and think that most damage was caused by Jones pummelling away at his shoulder to bring his guard down like he did). Point is, Harding was eventually outclassed and, in 2000, I think Tarver would have been in a similar manner. This was smack bang in the middle of the period where Jones was almost exclusively fighting southpaws, too, so it's not as if Tarver was likely to flummox him on that front.

Tarver the best 175 pounder that Jones fought? I'm not sure if Tarver was that much better than an unbeaten Griffin, perhaps not even as good as a 34 year old Hill. Reggie Johnson was in good form before losing to Roy, too. Either side of knocking Roy out, Tarver managed to let their first fight slip away when Jones was there for the taking and lost to the 'Road Warrior' before being outclassed by a 41 year old Hopkins. I guess it's not inconceivable, though.

I thought it was a torn bicep, caused when he threw a left and Jones blocked it? Wasn't it drooping off the bone?

I'd say Tarver was the best of that lot. Hill was heading over the...hill...when Jones took him out and coming off a loss. I don't rate Griffin as highly - that very definitely seemed to be a style issue coupled with motivational issues (which Roy figured out by the re-run). Reggie Johnson was better as a middle I'd say - his record at 175 was patchy to say the least.

Jones may have been going off when Tarver got him but even that version of Jones would have taken care of the aforementioned trio - without it being close.

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Post by Lance on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 8:41 pm

I do like hearing Jones fans come up with every excuse they can against Tarver. Yes Jones had declined but he still should have been capable of avoiding getting knocked out and still should have put up a fight in the third match. Tarver really did have his number.

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 8:41 pm

88Chris05 wrote:
Herman Jaeger wrote:Kov batters Roy surely, Chris

Well even if he was the rightful winner the other week, he didn't 'batter' Ward. And as good, maybe great (that's a separate debate, let's not do it here!) as Ward is, Roy Jones he ain't.

I think Kovalev is an outstanding fighter. A top-ranked Light-Heavyweight at the least in any era. But Jones at his best was the 1964-67 Ali of the Middles / Light-Heavies. Not everyone will agree, but I think Jones was one of the most freakish fighters in history. His record might not stack up to his raw talent and ability (which doesn't mean it's a shallow record in its own right), but in a head-to-head I'd pick him to beat any 160 pounder in history barring a two or three who I'd put at 50:50, and even at 175 I wouldn't put him at anything worse than 40:60 against anyone.

I don't think Kovalev could beat Roy. I don't even put him in the same class of fighter as Roy. The point is, that's not an insult to Kovalev - it's a testament to how great Jones was.

Roy wouldn't have been a middle in the days of same day weigh-ins (I would doubt in any case). He's a much bigger man than your Monzons, Grebs etc.

He was at his absolute best at 168. The best fighter ever at that weight and virtually unbeatable. He was never as formidable at 175 (some of that was due to him being naturally small at the weight - well, smallish - and the other an attitude shift after the McClellan tragedy).

I like a few fighters against him at 175. I think he's untouchable at 168 and too big for an imaginary 160 affair. Jones would be a problem for any of them, though.

I'll leave the issue of his freakish physical attributes - that never seems to end well (and has been done to death).

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 8:43 pm

Lance wrote:I do like hearing Jones fans come up with every excuse they can against Tarver. Yes Jones had declined but he still should have been capable of avoiding getting knocked out and still should have put up a fight in the third match. Tarver really did have his number.

I think there's something in that. Tarver would have given him problems at 175 even at his best. He was one of the few fighters to get in with Jones with real conviction he could win.

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Post by AdamT on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 8:47 pm

Nobody at 168 touches him. Agree with that

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 8:50 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
88Chris05 wrote:I know Harding's retirement was ostensibly down to a shoulder injury, Haz (although like Foreman, I'm sceptical about how serious it actually was and think that most damage was caused by Jones pummelling away at his shoulder to bring his guard down like he did). Point is, Harding was eventually outclassed and, in 2000, I think Tarver would have been in a similar manner. This was smack bang in the middle of the period where Jones was almost exclusively fighting southpaws, too, so it's not as if Tarver was likely to flummox him on that front.

Tarver the best 175 pounder that Jones fought? I'm not sure if Tarver was that much better than an unbeaten Griffin, perhaps not even as good as a 34 year old Hill. Reggie Johnson was in good form before losing to Roy, too. Either side of knocking Roy out, Tarver managed to let their first fight slip away when Jones was there for the taking and lost to the 'Road Warrior' before being outclassed by a 41 year old Hopkins. I guess it's not inconceivable, though.

It sounds better saying he lost to the best Light Heavyweight he fought though Chris, doesn't fit into the right rhetoric to say that Jones actually beat better ones previously. Griffin, Hill and Reggie are the best he fought at the weight, Tarver is more in the Harding and old man McCallum region for me.

Griffin lost to Tarver (a shut out),Dariusz, Jones and Harding (and split two fights with a bloated, disinterested Toney)- the best men he faced (and was lucky to get the "win" over Jones). I see no case for him being better than Tarver?

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 8:51 pm

AdamT wrote:Nobody at 168 touches him. Agree with that

He'd have put Calzaghe and Ward on their backsides.

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Post by AdamT on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 9:08 pm

Definitely Ward. Do you not think Calzaghe would cause problems? Too open maybe?

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Post by catchweight on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 9:50 pm

Jones was a terrific fighter, but have never bought into his untouchable status. If you watch enough boxing you figure out no boxer is untouchable. Jones was fragile which made him vulnerable. Fair to say he was on the slide by the tarver fights but its a little easy to dismiss it as jones being finished. Tarver showed he was not mr untouchable. Flashy, classy but also glassy.

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Post by AdamT on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 9:54 pm

Floyd has better longevity and obviously a better defensive boxer, but 90's Jones is the best fighter since I started following the sport.

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 9:55 pm

AdamT wrote:Definitely Ward. Do you not think Calzaghe would cause problems? Too open maybe?

I just don't see either being able to contend with him at '68. He was like a Marvel character against Byrd, Brannon, Thornton etc. I'm so glad they never made the Benn fight after Thornton. At that particular point, Benn would have been slaughtered.

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 10:17 pm

On the point made about Tarver being the best light heavy Jones faced: Virgil Hill probably rates above Tarver in an all-time sense, yet I'd suggest - of the versions of each man Jones faced - Tarver was the best fighter he fought at light heavy.

Ward aside for now (as he's just made the leap), the best 175 pound fighters of the post Spinks era were probably Jones, Tarver, Hill, Johnson, Dariusz, Hopkins and Dawson. Maybe add Kovalev and Stevenson in there. Maybe Pascal at a push.

Of the three guys Jones fought at light heavy (at the point he fought them), I'd say Tarver and Johnson were the best followed by Hill.

In an all-time sense, you'd have Jones and then maybe Hill, with the rest all in a bunch after that.


Last edited by hazharrison on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 10:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by AdamT on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 10:20 pm

His competition wasn't great. He made them look very poor.

Funny how you never fully appreciate a fighter until they are gone.

You have probably seen the GGG fight I posted earlier Haz.

Very enjoyable fight.

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 10:30 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:His knockout of Hill was a thing of beauty too, one of the finest body shot stoppages you'll ever see.

Behind the back?

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 10:31 pm

AdamT wrote:His competition wasn't great. He made them look very poor.

Funny how you never fully appreciate a fighter until they are gone.

You have probably seen the GGG fight I posted earlier Haz.

Very enjoyable fight.

same will happen with Pacquiao and Floyd

Just wait

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Post by AdamT on Tue 29 Nov 2016, 10:34 pm

Floyd will never be appreciated. Manny already is by most.

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