Lions 2017 - Name your team, captain and whatever else you want to harp on about

by GunsGermsV2 Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:19 pm

First topic message reminder :

My wishlist:

I hope AWJ is named captain to keep the Irish and English lads in check.
I hope Robshaw gets picked, he deserves to tour at least once at this point.
I hope the refereeing is strictly on a level playing field.
I hope NZ are made accountable for any incidents where they break anyone's collarbone and put them out of the game for 13 months.
The Lions to be at the very least competitive and win one of the first two tests.
I'd like to see Tadhg Furlong get a run out.
Would like to see an uncapped player in the squad.
No charity caps, Tom court, Shane Williams etc.
I hope Gatland comes up with a much more interesting and variable game plan than on the last Lions tour.
Dylan Hartley calls a ref the C word on the last day of the six nations and misses the tour.

by GunsGermsV2 Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:08 pm

beshocked wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:
beshocked wrote:Russell vs the ABs in NZ? Maybe if he has a good 6 nations. Just want to see a bit more resilience from him. He's clearly an exciting player but Sexton and Farrell both are much more experienced.

About time Russell led Scotland to some notable wins, Scotland seem to have the promise and with Glasgow going well hopefully this will give Scotland the confidence to kick on.

Sexton and Farrell both have experience beating the ABs too.

Farrell isnt that experienced an out half though plus he hasn't played there for England singe England started to consistently win games.

Russell has looked very good lately IMO.

Have to give you a minus because your comment is so stupid. I'd much rather give + and that's what I've been doing in general.

Come on gunsgermsv2, you are not a fool. Saying Farrell isn't that an experienced fly half......

I meant at international level obviously. He only has 20 international caps at OH and has only played one test at OH in the last two years for England. As such he isnt that experienced an international OH. In fact he is the least experienced OH of all options in terms of test caps at OH.

So take your minus back. Haha. Looks like the joke is on you.

by Scottrf Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:15 pm

30 international caps at flyhalf not 20. And it being his normal position for club where he's got to finals of the European Cup and Aviva Prem. Quite experienced.

by beshocked Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:27 pm

Not experienced enough for gunsgerms obviously.

Being back up 10 on a Lions tour doesn't mean anything either.

Beating the ABs at 10 is obviously completely irrelevant when facing the ABs.

Only won 3 AP titles and 1 European title at 10. Only beaten every top tier side bar SA as a 10.....

by LordDowlais Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:33 pm

I honestly believe that some members are over rating their own nations players, and under rating others, there is nothing wrong with that by the way, but let's at least be objective and give a few reasons and examples for why people have these opinions.

You see for me, my two picks for flyhalf are Sexton and Biggar. We will be doing a lot of defending down the 10 channel against the All Blacks, and these two at least can hold their own in that dept whilst being pretty damn reliable with other aspects of their game.

by Hammersmith harrier Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:34 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I honestly believe that some members are over rating their own nations players, and under rating others, there is nothing wrong with that by the way, but let's at least be objective and give a few reasons and examples for why people have these opinions.

You see for me, my two picks for flyhalf are Sexton and Biggar. We will be doing a lot of defending down the 10 channel against the All Blacks, and these two at least can hold their own in that dept whilst being pretty damn reliable with other aspects of their game.

by GunsGermsV2 Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:37 pm

I can pretend to agree with you if you like Beshocked. The reality is though Farrell isnt that experienced at international level at oh and hasnt played there for some time. Id prefer someone like Russell who regularly plays there.

by Hammersmith harrier Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:40 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I can pretend to agree with you if you like Beshocked. The reality is though Farrell isnt that experienced at international level at oh and hasnt played there for some time. Id prefer someone like Russell who regularly plays there.

Selective reasoning that, ignoring that Farrell is a more experienced 10 than Russell who plays there for the top side in European club Rugby. I don't understand why you completely ignore his club record.

by BamBam Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:41 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I honestly believe that some members are over rating their own nations players, and under rating others, there is nothing wrong with that by the way, but let's at least be objective and give a few reasons and examples for why people have these opinions.

You see for me, my two picks for flyhalf are Sexton and Biggar. We will be doing a lot of defending down the 10 channel against the All Blacks, and these two at least can hold their own in that dept whilst being pretty damn reliable with other aspects of their game.

You beat me to it

by BamBam Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:43 pm

I think its safe to assume Farrell will travel, as a competent 10 and 12, who offers the ability to change the game plan at 12 from the likes of Roberts/Henshaw - I don't see another 2nd fly half type of centre available if they want to change it up

I'd go with Sexton, Ford and Farrell as the 3

by GunsGermsV2 Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:43 pm

Club rugby is a level below international rugby which is a level below a tour to NZ.

by Scottrf Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:44 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Club rugby is a level below international rugby which is a level below a tour to NZ.

So 30 FH caps to the 22 of Russell.

by Exiledinborders Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:45 pm

beshocked wrote:Not experienced enough for gunsgerms obviously.

Being back up 10 on a Lions tour doesn't mean anything either.

Beating the ABs at 10 is obviously completely irrelevant when facing the ABs.

Only won 3 AP titles and 1 European title at 10. Only beaten every top tier side bar SA as a 10.....

You are wasting your time.

Certain posters seem to have a blind spot when it comes to Farrell. His record is irrelevant.

by GunsGermsV2 Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:48 pm

Id definitely pick Farrell Biggar and Russell for the squad and Russell to start.

by True Raven Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:49 pm

It's strange how Biggars stock has dropped significantly in a year, when last season he was easily the best home nations fly half in the world cup.

For the record my choice would be Farrell at 10 for the lions with Sexton on the bench and Biggar as the third choice fly half.

by GunsGermsV2 Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:50 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
beshocked wrote:Not experienced enough for gunsgerms obviously.

Being back up 10 on a Lions tour doesn't mean anything either.

Beating the ABs at 10 is obviously completely irrelevant when facing the ABs.

Only won 3 AP titles and 1 European title at 10. Only beaten every top tier side bar SA as a 10.....
You are wasting your time.

Certain posters seem to have a blind spot when it comes to Farrell. His record is irrelevant.

You are making things up now. Farrell isnt an experienced international out half.

by Exiledinborders Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:51 pm

BamBam wrote:I think its safe to assume Farrell will travel, as a competent 10 and 12, who offers the ability to offer a change of game plan at 12 from the likes of Roberts/Henshaw - I don't see another 2nd fly half type of centre available if they want to change it up

I'd go with Sexton, Ford and Farrell as the 3

I hope to God that Roberts is not in the game plan.

The patent Roberts game plan:
1) Trundle the ball up very slowly and run at the tackler and hope to get an offload away.
2) Repeat 1)
3) Er...
4) That's it.

by Exiledinborders Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:52 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:
beshocked wrote:Not experienced enough for gunsgerms obviously.

Being back up 10 on a Lions tour doesn't mean anything either.

Beating the ABs at 10 is obviously completely irrelevant when facing the ABs.

Only won 3 AP titles and 1 European title at 10. Only beaten every top tier side bar SA as a 10.....
You are wasting your time.

Certain posters seem to have a blind spot when it comes to Farrell. His record is irrelevant.

You are making things up now. Farrell isnt an experienced international out half.

He has more caps at out half than Russell who you apparently want to pick.

by BamBam Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:53 pm

I wouldn't even pick Roberts for Wales at 12 if it was me, but seeing as he's probably going and competing for first choice 12 I felt I had to include him in the conversation

by GunsGermsV2 Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:15 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:
beshocked wrote:Not experienced enough for gunsgerms obviously.

Being back up 10 on a Lions tour doesn't mean anything either.

Beating the ABs at 10 is obviously completely irrelevant when facing the ABs.

Only won 3 AP titles and 1 European title at 10. Only beaten every top tier side bar SA as a 10.....
You are wasting your time.

Certain posters seem to have a blind spot when it comes to Farrell. His record is irrelevant.

You are making things up now. Farrell isnt an experienced international out half.
He has more caps at out half than Russell who you apparently want to pick.

Only marginally more. The point is that Russell plays at OH at international level. Farrell doesnt. By the end of the six nations Russell will have pretty much the same caps at OH as Farrell and Farrell will not have played there regularly for two years.

For me that means Farrell is not that experienced an OH. Neither is Russell but I think he should be picked because he is probably the best all round OH.

I am almost 99% sure Gatland will pick Farrell though.

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:02 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:The patent Roberts game plan:
1) Trundle the ball up very slowly and run at the tackler and hope to get an offload away.
2) Repeat 1)
3) Er...
4) That's it.

I've seen little evidence that offloading is part of the plan. If it was, it wouldn't be so bad.

by beshocked Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:16 pm

Gunsgerms the funny thing is I've said that my first choice 10 would probably be Sexton but you can't deny that Farrell Jr is an experienced 10.

He's also been on a Lions tour as I previously mentioned.

I am open to Russell moving up the 10 pecking order if he improves his game management and overall control at international level.

It's not as if Farrell isn't regularly playing at international level. He's also still goalkicking.

Russell doesn't even do the goalkicking for his country. Not deemed good enough.

Surely the 10 has to be able kick at international level?

Plenty for Russell to prove.

by GunsGermsV2 Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:27 pm

beshocked wrote:Gunsgerms the funny thing is I've said that my first choice 10 would probably be Sexton but you can't deny that Farrell Jr is an experienced 10.

He's also been on a Lions tour as I previously mentioned.

I am open to Russell moving up the 10 pecking order if he improves his game management and overall control at international level.

It's not as if Farrell isn't regularly playing at international level. He's also still goalkicking.

Russell doesn't even do the goalkicking for his country. Not deemed good enough.

Surely the 10 has to be able kick at international level?

Plenty for Russell to prove.

It isnt Ireland v England Beshocked. You said Farrell is much more experienced than Russell. I dont think he is. You cant deny the fact that Farrell is actually one of the least experienced international OHs that stand a chance of getting selected.

Russell is only marginally less experienced and yet plays much more at OH now a days than Farrell thats why my preference would be for him. That and the fact that he is a much more exciting player.

If Farrell starts I expect the backs involvement will center around crash balls to Roberts every first phase. Im not denying he is a good rugby player.

by R!skysports Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:41 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:
beshocked wrote:Not experienced enough for gunsgerms obviously.

Being back up 10 on a Lions tour doesn't mean anything either.

Beating the ABs at 10 is obviously completely irrelevant when facing the ABs.

Only won 3 AP titles and 1 European title at 10. Only beaten every top tier side bar SA as a 10.....
You are wasting your time.

Certain posters seem to have a blind spot when it comes to Farrell. His record is irrelevant.

You are making things up now. Farrell isnt an experienced international out half.
He has more caps at out half than Russell who you apparently want to pick.

Only marginally more. The point is that Russell plays at OH at international level. Farrell doesnt. By the end of the six nations Russell will have pretty much the same caps at OH as Farrell and Farrell will not have played there regularly for two years.

For me that means Farrell is not that experienced an OH. Neither is Russell but I think he should be picked because he is probably the best all round OH.

I am almost 99% sure Gatland will pick Farrell though.

Now as a Scotsman always ready to over promote our players, I still think Russel is behind Sexton and Farrel - on a par with Ford.

The 6 nations will certainly be key and while Russel has improved almost immeasurable over the last year, there still is a need to show that through the 6 nations.

I hope for Scotland he can

by GunsGermsV2 Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:55 pm

Yeah the six nations will reveal a lot. Shame Farrell wont be playing OH in the six nations.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:01 pm

I think Guns is being a bit tongue in cheek with his comments on Farrell. He's obviously an experienced FH who's played under intense pressure at all levels. To suggest he's not played 10 for England for 2 years is irrelevant, it's his natural position and is only a makeshift 12. Even in England games, he often slips in at 10 and alternates 1st receiver with Ford, it's why it's working.

As it stands, I wouldn't select Farrell as a centre or first choice 10. He'd be a good backup for these positions though and a handy bench option.

by Guest Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:22 pm

Sgt_Pooly's beaten me to it. He's hooked you boys.

by LordDowlais Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:28 pm

Finn Russell needs to improve his defence, the All Blacks would flatten him down that 10 channel. He is pretty good in attack, but I do not think we will be doing much attacking, we need a 10 who can tackle on this tour, Biggar, Farrell and Sexton all fit that bill.

by GunsGermsV2 Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:31 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Finn Russell needs to improve his defence, the All Blacks would flatten him down that 10 channel. He is pretty good in attack, but I do not think we will be doing much attacking, we need a 10 who can tackle on this tour, Biggar, Farrell and Sexton all fit that bill.

I dont think we will do much attacking either but mainly because Gatland is very conservative. I think we should really take it to the ABs and go all out attack. Show no fear at all.

Im convinced the Australia series would have been won by the Lions after two tests if we weren't so conservative.

by beshocked Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:33 pm

Depends what you mean by all out attack. Even the ABs don't attack from their 22 all the time.

It's important to play intelligent rugby.

Gatland is indeed conservative but you can go too far in the opposite direction if you pick "style" over substance.

Need a balanced approach.

by LordDowlais Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:35 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Finn Russell needs to improve his defence, the All Blacks would flatten him down that 10 channel. He is pretty good in attack, but I do not think we will be doing much attacking, we need a 10 who can tackle on this tour, Biggar, Farrell and Sexton all fit that bill.

I dont think we will do much attacking either but mainly because Gatland is very conservative. I think we should really take it to the ABs and go all out attack. Show no fear at all.

Im convinced the Australia series would have been won by the Lions after two tests if we weren't so conservative.

This is why we need a solid 10, not a maverick one. People can say what they like about Dan Biggar, but one thing you cannot question is his commitment in defence, he will stand toe to toe with the biggest of them, plus he has a very high kicking %. Farrell is in the same mold as Biggar, but for me, he has that tendency to lose his concentration and get rattled at 10. That's just my opinion though.

I would go for Biggar and Sexton for the two outside halfs for the Lions as it stands, with Sexton being the starter.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:38 pm

I would of seriously considered Bigger but he's bang out of form. I'd take Sexton, Farrell and Ford with Russell needing a big 6N to steal the spot from Ford.

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:42 pm

Dan Biggar's not even the best outside half in Swansea, never mind Britain and Ireland.

by **RiscaGame** Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:43 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Dan Biggar's not even the best outside half in Swansea, never mind Britain and Ireland.

Exactly.

by True Raven Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:44 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I would of seriously considered Bigger but he's bang out of form. I'd take Sexton, Farrell and Ford with Russell needing a big 6N to steal the spot from Ford.

Like hell is he, we're top of the league with Biggar as our 10 and got more winning bonus points than probably any other team in Europe

by GunsGermsV2 Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:49 pm

People are probably judging Biggar based on Wales' form in November. However, Wales are nearly always rubbish in November and then raise their game in the 6N.

Biggar would be in my squad.

by beshocked Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:53 pm

Welsh fan would want to pick Welsh 10, shock horror!

Lorddowlais when would you say Farrell has been rattled more than Biggar?

Biggar will always be a hero to Wales because of his notable wins vs England but there has to be more to a 10 than just being able to beat England plus the ABs are another team entirely.

Biggar record vs SH sides is laughably poor too. Even managed to lose Samoa and Japan though maybe Japan count as NH?

Still embarrassing.

by True Raven Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:58 pm

beshocked wrote:Welsh fan would want to pick Welsh 10, shock horror!

Lorddowlais when would you say Farrell has been rattled more than Biggar?

Biggar will always be a hero to Wales because of his notable wins vs England but there has to be more to a 10 than just being able to beat England plus the ABs are another team entirely.

Biggar record vs SH sides is laughably poor too. Even managed to lose Samoa.

Lol, really?? is that the best you can come up with?

Welsh fans think Biggar is a hero because he kicked a penalty to beat England lol

by LordDowlais Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:00 pm

beshocked wrote:Biggar will always be a hero to Wales because of his notable wins vs England but there has to be more to a 10 than just being able to beat England plus the ABs are another team entirely.

Nope, it's not all just about England for me. If you watched Biggar in the game in the AI when we finally beat a SH team, Springboks, take a look at his defence in that game, and countless others, he is a solid tackler, he is awesome under the high ball, his kick and catch/chase is probably one of the best in the world, and he is good with his boot, just because he does not have snake hips, it does not make him inferior.

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais when would you say Farrell has been rattled more than Biggar?

Yes a lot more, I have seen it numerous times with Farrel, for both club and country, he will tackle though.

beshocked wrote:Biggar record vs SH sides is laughably poor too. Even managed to lose Samoa.

Is that the game where he was stretchered off after nearly being decapitated and he spent a few weeks on the sidelines afterwards ?

by Scottrf Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:01 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Is that the game where he was stretchered off after nearly being decapitated and he spent a few weeks on the sidelines afterwards ?

So you're saying his defence is weak?

by True Raven Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:02 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
beshocked wrote:Biggar will always be a hero to Wales because of his notable wins vs England but there has to be more to a 10 than just being able to beat England plus the ABs are another team entirely.

Nope, it's not all just about England for me. If you watched Biggar in the game in the AI when we finally beat a SH team, Springboks, take a look at his defence in that game, and countless others, he is a solid tackler, he is awesome under the high ball, his kick and catch/chase is probably one of the best in the world, and he is good with his boot, just because he does not have snake hips, it does not make him inferior.

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais when would you say Farrell has been rattled more than Biggar?

Yes a lot more, I have seen it numerous times with Farrel, for both club and country, he will tackle though.

beshocked wrote:Biggar record vs SH sides is laughably poor too. Even managed to lose Samoa.

Is that the game where he was stretchered off after nearly being decapitated and he spent a few weeks on the sidelines afterwards ?

Dont reason with him LD, he thinks all we care about is beating the English.

by LordDowlais Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:03 pm

Scottrf wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Is that the game where he was stretchered off after nearly being decapitated and he spent a few weeks on the sidelines afterwards ?
So you're saying his defence is weak?

No, how have you come to that conclusion ? Rolling Eyes

He was high tackled by a Samoan player and had to go off.

by True Raven Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:03 pm

Scottrf wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Is that the game where he was stretchered off after nearly being decapitated and he spent a few weeks on the sidelines afterwards ?
So you're saying his defence is weak?

How did you get that from LD's quote unless you think tackles above the neck are ok?

by LordDowlais Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:04 pm

True Raven wrote:Dont reason with him LD, he thinks all we care about is beating the English.

It's probably because of that stupid Stereophonics song. Rolling Eyes

by Scottrf Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:06 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Is that the game where he was stretchered off after nearly being decapitated and he spent a few weeks on the sidelines afterwards ?
So you're saying his defence is weak?

No, how have you come to that conclusion ?

He was high tackled by a Samoan player and had to go off.

Wasn't quite being serious...

by Sgt_Pooly Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:06 pm

True Raven wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I would of seriously considered Bigger but he's bang out of form. I'd take Sexton, Farrell and Ford with Russell needing a big 6N to steal the spot from Ford.

Like hell is he, we're top of the league with Biggar as our 10 and got more winning bonus points than probably any other team in Europe

Rabo and Challenge cup rugby is hardly a standard to judge Lions form. He's been dire for Wales and that's what he's going to be judged on.

by LordDowlais Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:07 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
True Raven wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I would of seriously considered Bigger but he's bang out of form. I'd take Sexton, Farrell and Ford with Russell needing a big 6N to steal the spot from Ford.

Like hell is he, we're top of the league with Biggar as our 10 and got more winning bonus points than probably any other team in Europe

Rabo and Challenge cup rugby is hardly a standard to judge Lions form. He's been dire for Wales and that's what he's going to be judged on.

OK, so we can decide after the 6N.

by beshocked Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:07 pm

Well Biggar did win welsh personality of the year for that victory over England in the RWC.

Not that ridiculous, Gavin Henson is revered for that tackle on ickle Tait and that kick to beat England...

Wasn't just the RWC win over England that Biggar is revered for though to be fair - managed to beat us in 2013 too.

That win over England in the RWC meant Gatland kept his job. Can't play down the significance.

Sorry true raven. I only think that because Biggar got an award for that very reason, Gatland kept his job for that very reason.

I respected Wales' victory over England in the RWC but too much emphasis has been put on it.

Now perhaps you individually aren't obsessed with beating England but I get the impression that many in Wales are.

I think if Wales to improve as a rugby playing nation then attitudes must change.

miaow even talked about Gatland sacrificing a game in the 6 nations to beat England in the RWC.

by LordDowlais Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:08 pm

Scottrf wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Is that the game where he was stretchered off after nearly being decapitated and he spent a few weeks on the sidelines afterwards ?
So you're saying his defence is weak?

No, how have you come to that conclusion ?

He was high tackled by a Samoan player and had to go off.
Wasn't quite being serious...

Oh OK.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:09 pm

Of course LD, a lot of the fringe calls will be made on 6N form. As it stands I can't see Bigger getting selected but things can change.

by LordDowlais Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:11 pm

beshocked wrote:Well Biggar did win welsh personality of the year for that victory over England in the RWC.

It wasn't just for that, it was for his overall performances for Wales that year, and Ospreys.

beshocked wrote:That win over England in the RWC meant Gatland kept his job. Can't play down the significance.

You do realise that Gatland has a contract until the next WC don't you ? I suppose he only got the Lions job because of that victory as well ? God some of you English members have an over inflated opinion of your national team.

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