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6N 2017: England v France, 4 February

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Post by George Carlin Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:14 am

First topic message reminder :

6N 2017: England v France, 4 February - Page 3 Englan11  6N 2017: England v France, 4 February - Page 3 France11
ENGLAND v FRANCE
4 February 2017
KO: 16:50
Twickenham, London 

Live on ITV, FR2, RTE, DMAX, BBC (H)

Referee: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Touch judges: Glen Jackson (New Zealand) & Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
TMO: Peter Fitzgibbon (Ireland)

A. Head to Head

102 Played 102
56 Won 39
7 Drawn 7
39 Lost 56
1623 Points 1290

B. Recent Form 

19 March 2016
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
21 – 31 to England

22 August 2015
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
25 – 20 to France

15 August 2015
Twickenham, London
19 – 14 to England

21 March 2015
Twickenham, London
55 – 35 to England

1 February 2014
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
26 – 24 to France

C. Teams

ENGLAND 
6N 2017: England v France, 4 February - Page 3 Mary-b10
15-Mike Brown; 14-Jonny May, 13-Jonathan Joseph, 12-Owen Farrell, 11-Elliot Daly; 10-George Ford, 9-Ben Youngs; 1-Joe Marler, 2-Dylan Hartley (captain), 3-Dan Cole, 4-Joe Launchbury, 5-Courtney Lawes, 6-Maro Itoje, 7-Tom Wood, 8-Nathan Hughes

Replacements: 16-Jamie George, 17-Matt Mullan, 18-Kyle Sinckler 19-Teimana Harrison, 20-James Haskell, 21-Danny Care, 22-Ben Te'o, 23-Jack Nowell

FRANCE
6N 2017: England v France, 4 February - Page 3 Raymon10
15-Scott Spedding; 14-Noa Nakaitaci, 13-Remi Lamerat, 12-Gael Fickou, 11-Virimi Vakatawa; 10-Camille Lopez, 9-Baptiste Serin; 1-Cyril Baille, 2-Guilhem Guirado (captain), 3-Uini Atonio, 4-Sebastien Vahaamahina, 5-Yoann Maestri, 6-Damien Chouly, 7-Kevin Gourdon, 8-Louis Picamoles

Replacements: 16-Clement Maynadier, 17-Rabah Slimani, 18-Xavier Chiocci, 19-Arthur Iturria, 20-Loann Goujon, 21-Maxime Machenaud, 22-Jean Marc Doussain, 23-Yoann Huget


Last edited by George Carlin on Sat Feb 04, 2017 5:09 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post by hugehandoff Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:09 pm

Marler and Haskell apparently both fit and available. Marler to start with Mullan on the bench, Wood to start with Haskell on the bench.

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Post by B91212 Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:29 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I really hope hope Mullen start. France have a good scrum and Mullen is certainly not a big scrummager, I'd be much happier with Marler getting the nod.
Agreed, Mullen has looked iffy in the scrums this season and that was with Lauchbury (expected to start) packing down behind him the majority of the time. EJ stated before the weekend that he was sure Marler would be fit but that could just be a tactic to divert attention until the side is named. Being fit and being selected could be 2 different things.

Anyone else think EJ could go for a 6/2 split on the bench? All the players lacking match fitness are in the forwards. Daly covering 11, 12, 13, 14 & 15.

Marler, Hartley, Cole
Launchbury, Kruis
Haskell, Hughes, Itoje
Youngs, Ford
May, Farrell, Joseph, Nowell
Brown

George, Genge, Sinkler, Lawes, Wood, Clifford/ Harrison, Care, Daly.

Adequate cover for the 4 players lacking match sharpness. Not what I would go with but a possibility nerveless.

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Post by B91212 Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:37 pm

hugehandoff wrote:Marler and Haskell apparently both fit and available. Marler to start with Mullan on the bench, Wood to start with Haskell on the bench.
Just saw that on the BBC after I posted! Good news on Marler.

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Post by lostinwales Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:58 pm

This is Jones. He doesn't do easing players back in off the bench. Nobody is going to get on the bench unless they can provide impact for 20 mins or so. Not quite fit enough to start isn't necessarily going to cut it

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:30 pm

Scottrf wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:What happened to Stephenson the young Saints centre. Him and Hill of Exeter were supposed to be the next big things for England.
Broken leg.

Came back from a long term injury, played a couple of games and broke his leg. He has talent to burn but may end up being like a certain Gloucester winger permanently injured!
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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:21 pm

Ah that's a shame to hear Wpi

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Post by Gooseberry Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:35 pm

B91212 wrote:[

Anyone else think EJ could go for a 6/2 split on the bench? All the players lacking match fitness are in the forwards.

Fairly likely IMO

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Post by Gwlad Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:07 am

France may push England close as i think they finally have a decent coach but England should, must, win.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:30 am

Gwlad wrote:France may push England close as i think they finally have a decent coach but England should, must, win.

I guess the same could be said of Italy & the Wales game.

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Post by robbo277 Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:01 am

Gooseberry wrote:
B91212 wrote:[

Anyone else think EJ could go for a 6/2 split on the bench? All the players lacking match fitness are in the forwards.

Fairly likely IMO

It's a good point, although who's actually lacking match fitness?

Marler and Hartley may be, but they get designated replacements on a 5/3 or a 6/2 bench, so adding an extra flanker to the bench wouldn't help either of them.

If he starts with Kruis and Haskell, he may be thinking he'll need to sub both of those before the end and then has to get one more guy in there for cover, which would probably be a flanker if Itoje starts at 6.

If he starts with Launchbury and Lawes, with Itoje at 6, he could get away with just two back row on the bench and let Kruis get some minutes with Saracens.

Clifford is apparently on a modified training programme, so if it's two back row on the bench, it could quite easily be Wood and Harrison.

Looking at the backs, who would add value onto a bench containing Daly and a sub 9? Possibly Te'o? I think Jones likes Te'o as a bench option, and I personally would be surprised to see him discard him to add cover in the forwards. I think it more likely he's start two of Lawes, Wood and Harrison and leave out Kruis and Haskell if required, and keep his 3 backs on the bench.

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Post by beshocked Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:39 am

Robbo where's the consistency? picard

Why does Kruis need minutes with Saracens when Marler doesn't need minutes with Quins and Hartley doesn't need minutes with Saints?

Does match fitness matter or not? If not then pick them all! Personally I wouldn't pick any non match fit player as a starter but then again, I've seen that rustiness can damage a performance. Sometimes it can, sometimes it doesn't.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:09 pm

What constitutes match fitness? We talk half the time of too many games so is it better players have set out several and are rested for want of a better word. Or is several games on the trot better?

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Post by GeordieFalcon Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:16 pm

Im sure Eddie and his team will have put all the players who are recovering from injuries through the mill fitness wise.

Its quite clear what he expects on the pitch regarding work rate and fitness level...and if a player is not able to achieve that...he wont play!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:19 pm

Or he's dragged off after 15 min.

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Post by Poorfour Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:22 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:What constitutes match fitness? We talk half the time of too many games so is it better players have set out several and are rested for want of a better word. Or is several games on the trot better?

Eddie was quoted in the Evening Standard last night talking about how with modern rehab and monitoring techniques he has a pretty good idea of who is match fit and who isn't, and he thinks all the returnees are ready to play. Apparently Marler has been boxing...
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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:24 pm

He does love risky training doesn't he! Let's hope he doesn't let may and his nose anywhere near that.

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Post by robbo277 Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:15 pm

beshocked wrote:Robbo where's the consistency?  picard

Why does Kruis need minutes with Saracens when Marler doesn't need minutes with Quins and Hartley doesn't need minutes with Saints?

Does match fitness matter or not? If not then pick them all! Personally I wouldn't pick any non match fit player as a starter but then again, I've seen that rustiness can damage a performance. Sometimes it can, sometimes it doesn't.


I never said Kruis needs minutes with his club. Please re-read my post. I tried to model Eddie Jones thought process to ascertain whether he would use a 5/3 split or a 6/2 split on the bench, and ran through a few of the things that might go through his head. I never indicated any preference for any player over another.

I said that, regardless of bench composition, Marler and Hartley (I possibly should have added "if selected", although I'd be surprised if they weren't) would have to have like-for-like replacements on the bench, regardless of the split. That's down to World Rugby regulations to reduce the likelihood of uncontested scrums. So if they're 50/50, Jones could pick them safe in the knowledge that he would have a like-for-like on the bench in case they broke down after 5 minutes.

Moving on, I said if he wanted to play Kruis and Haskell, he may want some extra cover on the bench. Depends how fit they are and whether he's worried about them getting through the game.

I then said if he played Launchbury, Lawes and Itoje at 4, 5 and 6 respectively, he could get away with no specialist second row cover on the bench. In which case, I'd hope he did release Kruis back to Saracens for game time.

He could start Marler, Hartley, Kruis and Haskell, if he thinks these guys are fit I'd have no problem with that what-so-ever. He may decide that one or two of them aren't quite there but are worth the risk, and stack his bench with an extra forward accordingly.

Or he may decide that Marler, Hartley and Haskell are all head and shoulders above the next guys in terms of ability, experience, leadership and whatever other factors he considers relevant, but on the other hand he has 4 top locks (and in Launchbury and Lawes, he has two guys more experienced than Kruis), selecting Kruis isn't necessary, so he might not rush him back. These can quite easily be compartmentalised into different arguments, and I don't think suggesting such a team would be inconsistent.

Now talking about my opinion on the players for the first time, if I had doubts over both Haskell and Kruis, and if I didn't want 6 forwards on the bench because I wanted to keep Te'o in the matchday squad, I'd rather have Lawes and Haskell than Kruis and Wood. Not because Lawes is better than Kruis, but because I think Haskell is that much better than Wood.

I will disclaim the above by saying I haven't seen Kruis or Haskell train for the last 9 days, so I don't know how fit and sharp they are looking, so I can't make that call as to whether there are any doubts over either of them. Which is why I used words such as "if" and "may".

Sorry if I suggested the Saracen might get cut. picard

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Post by B91212 Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:46 pm

robbo277 wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
B91212 wrote:[

Anyone else think EJ could go for a 6/2 split on the bench? All the players lacking match fitness are in the forwards.

Fairly likely IMO

It's a good point, although who's actually lacking match fitness?
I should have maybe said match sharpness Smile

I know you can't read too much into but looking at the forwards training photos today Mullen, Lawes and Wood all looked like they were training with a first choice pack (Hartley, Cole, Itoje etc). A pretty lean looking Marler with Sinkler and other potential reserves as they went through some breakdown work. Wonder if it will have any bearing on selection?

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Post by LondonTiger Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:32 am

England head coach Eddie Jones has retained 25 players ahead of Saturday's opening RBS 6 Nations game against France at Twickenham Stadium (kick-off 4.50pm, live on ITV).

Lock George Kruis (Saracens) will go for a further medical assessment tomorrow morning (Wednesday 1 February) to determine the extent of a knee injury picked-up in training today (Tuesday).

Several players who missed the Old Mutual Wealth Series in the autumn return including James Haskell, Maro Itoje and Jack Nowell.

Joe Marler is also included having recovered from a fractured leg sustained less than a month ago. Jones will name his side to face France on Thursday.

Forwards (15)

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints).

Backs (10)

Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

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Post by LondonTiger Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:36 am

So:

We see three looseheads for now (with Nathan Catt released), three people who could play at 7 and all four options at second row. In large part I suspect this is because of fitness worries.

For the matchday 23 we will obviously see one of the LHs dropping out (Genge?) with the remaining player left out largely dependent upon Kruis fitness test following his knee knock. If he passes then we could see a 6/2 bench split with the more versatile Daly retained ahead of Te'o.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:43 am

While I'm a big fan of Mullen his form this year is iffy to say the least. Would be a pretty aggressive running bench with Genge Sinckler and George.

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Post by Cumbrian Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:56 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:While I'm a big fan of Mullen his form this year is iffy to say the least. Would be a pretty aggressive running bench with Genge Sinckler and George.

You're not wrong, that front three has impact written all over it! The propping stocks are really starting to look good for the future. Ellis Genge (21), Kyle Sinckler (23), Paul Hill (21) are all young and mobile. The fact that we have got experienced and relatively young props to guide them through is good too. Dan Cole has another World Cup in him and on the loose head side Joe Marler and Mako Vunipola have possibly two.
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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:00 am

Harrison picard

Well lets see if he can finally show his club form from last season at this level....I genuinely hope he can do it...but im just a bit sceptical.

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Post by LondonTiger Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:19 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Harrison picard

Well lets see if he can finally show his club form from last season at this level....I genuinely hope he can do it...but im just a bit sceptical.

Harrison is surely only going to be on the bench - and really was up against Clifford who has had little game-time I think.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:49 am

Ive been very harsh on Harrison. Last season he was excellent for Saints. If he can reproduce that for us...then he's worth a spot. Jones seems to think he's worth the perseverance....but we've only seen sporadic evidence so far.

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Post by beshocked Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:09 pm

England only have one full back in the 25. picard

Surely it's a bit risky? Yes I know perhaps some fans think Daly can sing and dance but his last positional change didn't quite go to plan.... he still needs to establish himself in one position before saying let's throw him in anywhere he's needed. He's unproven in 3 positions.

What do we do if Brown comes off early injured?

Can't say it's been made clear who Jones would turn to in those circumstances.

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Post by Rugby Fan Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:12 pm

beshocked wrote:What do we do if Brown comes off early injured?

Can't say it's been made clear who Jones would turn to in those circumstances.
If Daly is on the bench, then it's probably him, because Jones namechecked him along with Watson as challengers to Brown. I suppose the other option is Nowell.

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Post by Poorfour Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:34 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
beshocked wrote:What do we do if Brown comes off early injured?

Can't say it's been made clear who Jones would turn to in those circumstances.
If Daly is on the bench, then it's probably him, because Jones namechecked him along with Watson as challengers to Brown. I suppose the other option is Nowell.

Or Lozowski. The options are there but unproven. But they've got to get proven sometime.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:41 pm

When we had an out and out option of a full back on the bench it was ripped into from some sections.

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Post by Brad71090 Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:51 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:When we had an out and out option of a full back on the bench it was ripped into from some sections.

It is a null and void position to have on the bench imo, you need a utility back for that spot

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:54 pm

Depends if you have a utility player on the pitch. Daly is surely the choice to cover full back.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:56 pm

Fb and wings are so close now...they all have to have near enough the same skillset...

Thus if needs must, May, Nowell, Watson (when fit) can all slot into FB

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Post by Rugby Fan Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:57 pm

Poorfour wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
beshocked wrote:What do we do if Brown comes off early injured?

Can't say it's been made clear who Jones would turn to in those circumstances.
If Daly is on the bench, then it's probably him, because Jones namechecked him along with Watson as challengers to Brown. I suppose the other option is Nowell.

Or Lozowski. The options are there but unproven. But they've got to get proven sometime.
Lozowski isn't one of the 25 players retained by Jones.

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Post by LondonTiger Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:00 pm

Poorfour wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
beshocked wrote:What do we do if Brown comes off early injured?

Can't say it's been made clear who Jones would turn to in those circumstances.
If Daly is on the bench, then it's probably him, because Jones namechecked him along with Watson as challengers to Brown. I suppose the other option is Nowell.

Or Lozowski. The options are there but unproven. But they've got to get proven sometime.

Not an option in this particular scenario though.

Daly will be on the bench and provide cover for FB is most likely scenario - though Nowell can also cover there. Probably a better situation than our last test where Slade was the cover on the bench (and the wingers were Yarde and May)

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Post by beshocked Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:02 pm

Utility is great but not if a player is a master of none. Daly has potential but hasn't excelled in one position at international level let alone covering 3 different ones. It's a risk. I don't share the confidence of the rest of you.

We've already seen Daly be a liability. I am not saying it will happen again but it could.

T'eo is similar, he hasn't excelled in one position yet he's very likely to be our other bench option. That worries me a bit personally.

Now maybe both will be a huge success we'll see.

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Post by BamBam Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:22 pm

Any suggestions of who else that is a) worthy of a place on the bench and b) good full back cover

And no, Alex Goode does not count

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:24 pm

beshocked wrote:Utility is great but not if a player is a master of none. Daly has potential but hasn't excelled in one position at international level let alone covering 3 different ones. It's a risk. I don't share the confidence of the rest of you.

We've already seen Daly be a liability. I am not saying it will happen again but it could.

T'eo is similar, he hasn't excelled in one position yet he's very likely to be our other bench option. That worries me a bit personally.

Now maybe both will be a huge success we'll see.

We've seen him make a mistake that even the most senior experienced pro's are making!

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6N 2017: England v France, 4 February - Page 3 Empty Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February

Post by BamBam Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:26 pm

Daly is obviously a liability - he might get red carded in every international he plays.

Just like May is liable to break his nose in every international he plays

Just like Goode is a near certainty to be utterly useless in every international he plays

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6N 2017: England v France, 4 February - Page 3 Empty Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February

Post by Fluxy Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:33 pm

Nick Abendanon  Run

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6N 2017: England v France, 4 February - Page 3 Empty Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February

Post by Scottrf Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:34 pm

Fluxy wrote:Nick Abendanon  Run
thumbsup

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6N 2017: England v France, 4 February - Page 3 Empty Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February

Post by beshocked Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:39 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
beshocked wrote:Utility is great but not if a player is a master of none. Daly has potential but hasn't excelled in one position at international level let alone covering 3 different ones. It's a risk. I don't share the confidence of the rest of you.

We've already seen Daly be a liability. I am not saying it will happen again but it could.

T'eo is similar, he hasn't excelled in one position yet he's very likely to be our other bench option. That worries me a bit personally.

Now maybe both will be a huge success we'll see.

We've seen him make a mistake that even the most senior experienced pro's are making!

Daly was only the 5th player to get red carded for England and first in 11 years.

It's not a mistake that is done often.


Bambam sadly there aren't really any.

Look I'd love to agree with you guys that a Daly is a proven performer at FB,wing and outside centre at international level but I just haven't seen any evidence.

I want Daly to come on at full back and tear up the opposition, it's just doesn't seem realistic.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:42 pm

Thankfully Lozowski has been released, what the hell was doing there anyway????

Daly is the perfect bench option, covering most back positions to high standard and having bags of gas to run at tiring defences.

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6N 2017: England v France, 4 February - Page 3 Empty Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February

Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:42 pm

I'm struggling to think of any player who has played full back bar Brown. Watson not available who covered against Italy Goode not considered good enough bench option. Daly made the same mistake several have in taking people in the air.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:44 pm

You consider it a mistake beshocked who would be on your bench?

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Post by LondonTiger Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:46 pm

beshocked wrote:
Look I'd love to agree with you guys that a Daly is a proven performer at FB,wing and outside centre at international level


You really need to stop putting words into peoples mouths.

You asked who would replace Brown if he went off injured, we said Daly. Pretty much everyone knows his international career is in it's infancy. He looked good starting at centre, and obviously made that timing issue when on the wing. There is no "proven" player to be on the bench and cover Full back (as well as wing and centre) so having that job filled by a promising young player who has played FB very well in domestic and Euro competitions seems a good idea to me.

Who would you choose on the bench for England?

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6N 2017: England v France, 4 February - Page 3 Empty Re: 6N 2017: England v France, 4 February

Post by beshocked Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:47 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Thankfully Lozowski has been released, what the hell was doing there anyway????

Daly is the perfect bench option, covering most back positions to high standard and having bags of gas to run at tiring defences.

Laugh where's the proof? I'd love it if it were true. Sadly Daly is currently most well known for being the 5th man to be red carded for England.

He must work to change that. Needs to prove himself in one position first then move on. Seems to being hyped before he's proved himself.

Must change perceptions, must back up the potential.

Fortunately Daly didn't cost England the game vs Argentina.

no 7 & 1/2 what Daly did IMO was more reckless and dangerous than other red cards I've seen given for taking people out in the air. Wouldn't even call it contentious - well deserved straight red.


Sgt Pooly just said this:" Daly is the perfect bench option, covering most back positions to high standard and having bags of gas to run at tiring defences."

You don't think that is hyping up a player before he's proved himself?


Last edited by beshocked on Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Scottrf Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:49 pm

Aside from what is at the moment a one-off incident, I think Daly has looked decent at international level. Very promising.

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Post by BamBam Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:52 pm

BS just doesn't want to say that he'd have Goode on the bench, but I can practically hear it bursting from his fingertips

Go on shocked, let it out

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:54 pm

So who is you choice for the back.positions for starting and bench beshocked?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:55 pm

He can't bam bam after saying that was a huge Lancaster mistake.

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