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6 Nations 2017: Italy v Ireland, 11th February

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Post by rapidsnowman Wed 08 Feb 2017, 11:49 am

First topic message reminder :

6 Nations 2017: Italy v Ireland, 11th February - Page 3 Italee11 6 Nations 2017: Italy v Ireland, 11th February - Page 3 Irelan10
ITALY v IRELAND
Date: Saturday 11 February 2017
Kick Off: 2:25pm (GMT)
Venue: Stadio Olimpico, Rome

TV Coverage: Live on ITV

Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Touch judges: Angus Gardner (Australia) & Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
TMO: Rowan Kitt (England)

Italy: 15-Edoardo Padovani, 14-Angelo Esposito, 13-Tommaso Benvenuti, 12-Luke Mclean, 11-Giovanbattista Venditti, 10-Carlo Canna, 9-Edoardo Gori; 1-Andrea Lovotti, 2-Leonardo Ghiraldini, 3-Lorenzo Cittadini, 4-Marco Fuser, 5-Andries Van Schalkwyk, 6-Maxime Mbanda, 7-Simone Favaro, 8-Sergio Parisse,

Replacements: 16-Ornel Gega, 17-Sami Panico, 18-Dario Chistolini, 19-George Biagi, 20-Abraham Steyn, 21-Giorgio Bronzini, 22-Tommaso Allan, 23-Michele Campagnaro.

Ireland: 15-Rob Kearney, 14-Keith Earls, 13-Garry Ringrose, 12-Robbie Henshaw, 11-Simon Zebo, 10-Paddy Jackson, 9-Conor Murray; 1-Cian Healy, 2-Rory Best (captain), 3-Tadhg Furlong, 4-Donnacha Ryan, 5-Devin Toner, 6-CJ Stander, 7-Sean O'Brien, 8-Jamie Heaslip.

Replacements: 16-Niall Scannell, 17-Jack McGrath, 18-John Ryan, 19-Ultan Dillane, 20-Josh van der Flier, 21-Kieran Marmion, 22-Ian Keatley, 23-Craig Gilroy.

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Post by eirebilly Sun 12 Feb 2017, 7:49 am

Fantastic game. Excellent and ruthless from Ireland. Great to see Gilroy getting a hatrick thumbsup
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Post by Rory_Gallagher Sun 12 Feb 2017, 8:32 am

http://www.the42.ie/gilroy-schmidt-ireland-italy-six-nations-2017-3235161-Feb2017/

What is it with Schmidt and constantly outing Ulster players? A "mixed bag"? He did the same crap with McCloskey last year.

Meanwhile, he didn't mention anything about Ringrose looking out of depth last week and his defensive positioning, Furlong's defensive nightmare at the line-out, Kearney's inability to pass a ball etc.

Like I said, Ulster players are judged more harshly compared to his Leinster players.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher Sun 12 Feb 2017, 8:35 am

He's probably peed off that a winger scored three tries for a change instead of playing to the script.

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Post by Kingshu Sun 12 Feb 2017, 9:07 am

I think thats he is just showing he's a tough man to please.

Stander should have got 10/10 in anyones book should have been praised to the high heavens

“I thought CJ was really good today, even the try-scoring and tactical kicking aside,” said Schmidt afterwards. “Defensively, I thought he got off the line and got through a real volume of defensive work.
“A lot of what he did didn’t result in tries for him, but resulted in positive outcomes for us. He’s a really positive contributor, a really willing contributor and the one thing I would say is that we have a back row with big engines."

Its praise but not 10/10 praise, if it was Martin O'Neil describing him it would be "magnificat, truly marvelous etc etc"

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Post by Rory_Gallagher Sun 12 Feb 2017, 9:29 am

Kingshu wrote:I think thats he is just showing he's a tough man to please.

Stander should have got 10/10 in anyones book should have been praised to the high heavens

“I thought CJ was really good today, even the try-scoring and tactical kicking aside,” said Schmidt afterwards. “Defensively, I thought he got off the line and got through a real volume of defensive work.
“A lot of what he did didn’t result in tries for him, but resulted in positive outcomes for us. He’s a really positive contributor, a really willing contributor and the one thing I would say is that we have a back row with big engines."

Its praise but not 10/10 praise, if it was Martin O'Neil describing him it would be "magnificat, truly marvelous etc etc"

No, he is a tough man to please for some. He isn't consistent in his criticism. Plus, Gilroy has been in the wilderness for a while. A simple "he played well" would have sufficed, at least for the media. I think he is covering his tracks as he will be immediately dropped following this game.

He has specifically called out errors for players (generally from Ulster) who aren't part of the system. Like I said, I heard no such criticism for the defensive weaknesses of Ringrose etc.

Also - did anyone else notice Gilroy's supposed defensive bloopers yesterday?

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Post by eirebilly Sun 12 Feb 2017, 11:04 am

I thought that Gilroy was absolutely superb when he came on, 3 try's in 33mins is a pretty good return and he should definitely get some credit for it. I cant remember any defensive errors that he made either. Actually thought that Irelands attack looked even more balanced when he came on...
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Post by SecretFly Sun 12 Feb 2017, 11:38 am

I'm not sure you could plant an anti-Ulster bias at Schmidt's feet, which I think is quite pointedly the point being made by Rory.

What did Joe Schmidt say about Jackson?  
Who is his Team Captain?
Which Ulster wing did he play last week when the player was way off International form?  
What Ulster wing seems to be a favourite nailed-on option for Schmidt when he's fit?
Haven't some Ulster fans in this forum stated that on current Provincial form not many Ulster players are putting their hands up?

Sensitivity I suppose is to be expected given the present feeling in Ulster about their Province, coaches, Nucifora, player transfers etc.  I can understand the feeling that 'everyone is out to get us' but I can't share that view of Schmidt when looking from outside the Ulster bubble.  No player on the Irish team has gotten it in the neck more pointedly from Schmidt than Simon Zebo - and look at him, a player that has worked through his black-sheep period and now I'm sure the coach and the player understand each other and realise they both want the same thing - performance + success.

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Post by catchweight Sun 12 Feb 2017, 11:46 am

Schmidt is probably just trying to temper expectations and keep things in context. Italy are dreadful.

If it were not for Rome being such a fashionable and popular destination, I think their place in the competition would really under the microscope.

17 years on from inclusion and it seems like their national team and club sides have never been further away. No meaningful progress.

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Post by eirebilly Sun 12 Feb 2017, 11:47 am

I thought that PJ was the best player for Ireland yesterday, excellent with the boot and excellent in his control of the game. He will be dropped for Sexton against France in 2 weeks but he can certainly hold his head high.

After a poor game last week, Heaslip played very well I feel.

Scannell played really well too, over the moon for him.
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Post by SecretFly Sun 12 Feb 2017, 11:56 am

I was a little surprised at the penalty try and yellow. I was surprised that it came so rapidly given that when we were up assaulting their line for what looked like 15 minutes early in the first half - how many blown infringements were committed against us as we tried to get over the line?

It's not a ref's role to make a competition out of a non-competitive game.

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Post by catchweight Sun 12 Feb 2017, 11:58 am

It was a sympathy penalty try. Italy must have infringed with about ten offsides in the passage of play leading up to Irelands try without any yellow card.


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Post by Scottrf Sun 12 Feb 2017, 12:01 pm

Not sure I agree. Pretty clear an infringement stopped a probable try.

Italy offended but can you say that a try probably would be scored if not for a single one of them? Don't think so.

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Post by SecretFly Sun 12 Feb 2017, 12:05 pm

I think so.

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Post by catchweight Sun 12 Feb 2017, 12:08 pm

After about 5 blatant offsides when Italy were defending on their own line I would expect the ref to produce a yellow there.

Italy might have scored with their drive, but its seldom that the ref will give a penalty try in that spot even if it can be argued it was warranted.

I thought it smacked a bit of giving Italy a freebie because they need all the help they can get.

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Post by marty2086 Sun 12 Feb 2017, 12:13 pm

eirebilly wrote:I thought that Gilroy was absolutely superb when he came on, 3 try's in 33mins is a pretty good return and he should definitely get some credit for it. I cant remember any defensive errors that he made either. Actually thought that Irelands attack looked even more balanced when he came on...

What defence was required of him?

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Post by aucklandlaurie Sun 12 Feb 2017, 1:23 pm

SecretFly wrote:I was a little surprised at the penalty try and yellow.  I was surprised that it came so rapidly given that when we were up assaulting their line for what looked like 15 minutes early in the first half - how many blown infringements were committed against us as we tried to get over the line?

It's not a ref's role to make a competition out of a non-competitive game.

 Fly do you think Jacko had some bias against Ireland?

 My observation was that the repeated Italy offsides were often well away from the ball/play, cant really say the same for Ryan.

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Post by SecretFly Sun 12 Feb 2017, 1:29 pm

Come on, laurie. I don't care where the ref came from.
I'm saying that was one rapidfire penalty try and yellow for Ireland after being practically kept out for 10 minutes by Italy using whatever number of blatant infringements they were blown up on. It was the ref doing the blowing.
Ireland's try would have come quicker had the ref taken a yellow out of his pocket to prompt Italy to stop blatantly infringing.
Just think about Ireland being the ABs and that happening to your boys ( I know, a difficult thing for you to contemplate Ireland in Black shirts - they ain't your favourite kinda people lately;) - but what would you be saying today?)


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Post by Rory_Gallagher Sun 12 Feb 2017, 1:41 pm

SecretFly wrote:I'm not sure you could plant an anti-Ulster bias at Schmidt's feet, which I think is quite pointedly the point being made by Rory.

What did Joe Schmidt say about Jackson?  
Who is his Team Captain?
Which Ulster wing did he play last week when the player was way off International form?  
What Ulster wing seems to be a favourite nailed-on option for Schmidt when he's fit?
Haven't some Ulster fans in this forum stated that on current Provincial form not many Ulster players are putting their hands up?

Sensitivity I suppose is to be expected given the present feeling in Ulster about their Province, coaches, Nucifora, player transfers etc.  I can understand the feeling that 'everyone is out to get us' but I can't share that view of Schmidt when looking from outside the Ulster bubble.  No player on the Irish team has gotten it in the neck more pointedly from Schmidt than Simon Zebo - and look at him, a player that has worked through his black-sheep period and now I'm sure the coach and the player understand each other and realise they both want the same thing - performance + success.

I don't know what it is, I'm just pointing out something that is happening. Ulster players receive direct criticism from Schmidt after the games and I don't know why. But it happens. It doesn't happen for other players who come into the system, especially not those from Leinster.

And yes, Ulster are crap this season. I said it myself that Ireland would be better off without the Ulster players this year. How does criticising a player in the media, one who played well, help that though? How is that going to build confidence? Like I said, I think Schmidt is covering his tracks as he plans to immediately drop him.

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Post by aucklandlaurie Sun 12 Feb 2017, 1:43 pm

Fly I would be more asking myself the question, "Does this offending directly influence play?" and its via that process I would arrive at the penalty try.

 To me the yellow was excessive, and surprising, but by now you probably know my thoughts on coloured cards. Jackson is one of those referees that has a good feeling for the game, and does fall into a game manager flow of the game rather than a straight out adjudicator.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher Sun 12 Feb 2017, 1:49 pm

Obviously being offside and infringing at the breakdown directly influences play...

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Post by aucklandlaurie Sun 12 Feb 2017, 1:52 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Obviously being offside and infringing at the breakdown directly influences play...

 No it isnt obvious.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Sun 12 Feb 2017, 1:53 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:Obviously being offside and infringing at the breakdown directly influences play...

 No it isnt obvious.

Clearly it is when the referee was constantly playing advantage because of it.

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Post by aucklandlaurie Sun 12 Feb 2017, 1:55 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:Obviously being offside and infringing at the breakdown directly influences play...

 No it isnt obvious.

Clearly it is when the referee was constantly playing advantage because of it.

 So why wouldnt he of awarded penalty tries and yellow cards?

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Post by geoff999rugby Sun 12 Feb 2017, 2:03 pm

The best post match comments I saw was BOD singling out Jackson for some criticism and then Schmidt singling out the same player for praise. BOD said he kicked too much and Schmidt said he was pleased with the way he mixed things up !

Fortunately Schmidt is in charge not BOD

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Post by SecretFly Sun 12 Feb 2017, 2:04 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

And yes, Ulster are crap this season. I said it myself that Ireland would be better off without the Ulster players this year. How does criticising a player in the media, one who played well, help that though? How is that going to build confidence? Like I said, I think Schmidt is covering his tracks as he plans to immediately drop him.

Maybe it is.  

Maybe too, as someone else alluded to above, he's giving his judgement of 'don't get cocky' to yet another zippy back that can sometimes lose the run of himself in eagerness to dart and dance and do the nice stuff whilst negating his other heavy duty..duty.  
After all, I referenced Zebo - how many times did Schmidt shrug his 'indifferent' shoulders when asked to praise Zebo back in the days when Zebo and Joe seemed to have issues every week?  He was giving the signal that praise will be tempered if players aren't providing the whole deal - defending duty, attack duty - training hard, listening to direction, etc.
So who are we to know what he sees in training and what he says behind to scenes to a player like Gilroy?  What we know is that a player with the zoom of Gilroy is usually a highly-strung player - they are race-horse like, eager to play - often over eager in the eyes of coaches that are trying to keep defensive shape.

I love a player like Gilroy.  Jesus I wish we had bundles of players like him to pick from - everyone knows my idea on having Ireland be a faster, looser attacking side.  But I realise that damn balance of bringing all players with you in attack can be the difference between winning the BIG games and losing them.  I think Schmidt is deliberately trying to bring Gilroy back down quickly so that training will be business-like and not full of laughs and playful trickery - same as he was doing with Zebo.

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Post by Guest Sun 12 Feb 2017, 2:06 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
SecretFly wrote:I'm not sure you could plant an anti-Ulster bias at Schmidt's feet, which I think is quite pointedly the point being made by Rory.

What did Joe Schmidt say about Jackson?  
Who is his Team Captain?
Which Ulster wing did he play last week when the player was way off International form?  
What Ulster wing seems to be a favourite nailed-on option for Schmidt when he's fit?
Haven't some Ulster fans in this forum stated that on current Provincial form not many Ulster players are putting their hands up?

Sensitivity I suppose is to be expected given the present feeling in Ulster about their Province, coaches, Nucifora, player transfers etc.  I can understand the feeling that 'everyone is out to get us' but I can't share that view of Schmidt when looking from outside the Ulster bubble.  No player on the Irish team has gotten it in the neck more pointedly from Schmidt than Simon Zebo - and look at him, a player that has worked through his black-sheep period and now I'm sure the coach and the player understand each other and realise they both want the same thing - performance + success.

I don't know what it is, I'm just pointing out something that is happening. Ulster players receive direct criticism from Schmidt after the games and I don't know why. But it happens. It doesn't happen for other players who come into the system, especially not those from Leinster.

And yes, Ulster are crap this season. I said it myself that Ireland would be better off without the Ulster players this year. How does criticising a player in the media, one who played well, help that though? How is that going to build confidence? Like I said, I think Schmidt is covering his tracks as he plans to immediately drop him.

I can't say that Schmidt is biased against Ulster, but it doesn't look good when he has critised McCloskey and Gilroy, when players from other Provinces seem to get a free pass.

I do believe Schmidt has decided not to play these players for the next game, and get's his excuses in early by informing the public of what he perceives as their failings. Some would say that's ruthless, and it is, but it's also cowardly.

Just my opinion.


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Post by catchweight Sun 12 Feb 2017, 2:08 pm

If you infringe 3 or 4 times defending on your 5 meter line within the same two or three passages of play then you should expect a yellow card. The ref was lenient on Italy infringing constantly.

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Post by aucklandlaurie Sun 12 Feb 2017, 2:36 pm

catchweight wrote:If you infringe 3 or 4 times defending on your 5 meter line within the same two or three passages of play then you should expect a yellow card. The ref was lenient on Italy infringing constantly.

 So if you could set the leniency angle aside for one moment.

 Do you the think there might be some other reason why he didnt issue any yellow cards against the Italian players?

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Post by SecretFly Sun 12 Feb 2017, 2:42 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
catchweight wrote:If you infringe 3 or 4 times defending on your 5 meter line within the same two or three passages of play then you should expect a yellow card. The ref was lenient on Italy infringing constantly.

 So if you could set the leniency angle aside for one moment.

 Do you the think there might be some other reason why he didnt issue any yellow cards against the Italian players?

Pity on Italy?

Thus was my initial point anyway.  Trying desperately to make a non-competitive game competitive?  I've seen those kind of weird games before many times (in club and International) but I just think this 6N is very important and in terms of our true opposition (Wales, Scotland, England and France) we need things to be tight in the reffing department.  That 'leniency' level with Italy (due to human pity?) and then  stone-cold sober enactment of law on us a little later down the line, could have scuppered our challenge for that 6N - unlikely given how Italy were playing but possible.

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Post by Scottrf Sun 12 Feb 2017, 2:52 pm

If anyone was wondering if Irish fans would moan about the ref when winning 63-10...

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Post by aucklandlaurie Sun 12 Feb 2017, 2:58 pm

SecretFly wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
catchweight wrote:If you infringe 3 or 4 times defending on your 5 meter line within the same two or three passages of play then you should expect a yellow card. The ref was lenient on Italy infringing constantly.

 So if you could set the leniency angle aside for one moment.

 Do you the think there might be some other reason why he didnt issue any yellow cards against the Italian players?

Pity on Italy?

Thus was my initial point anyway.  Trying desperately to make a non-competitive game competitive?  I've seen those kind of weird games before many times (in club and International) but I just think this 6N is very important and in terms of our true opposition (Wales, Scotland, England and France) we need things to be tight in the reffing department.  That 'leniency' level with Italy (due to human pity?) and then  stone-cold sober enactment of law on us a little later down the line, could have scuppered our challenge for that 6N - unlikely given how Italy were playing but possible.

 Fly, there aint a hell of a lot difference between "Pity on Italy' and leniency on Italy.

 If he was trying to make the game competitive, then didnt do a very good job of it.
 If we take the discretion from the referees you will kill the very adventure and spirit of the game, lets encourage more teams to play rugby rather than just sit back and wait for the referee to play the game for them, Ireland played well yesterday.

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Post by catchweight Sun 12 Feb 2017, 3:04 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
catchweight wrote:If you infringe 3 or 4 times defending on your 5 meter line within the same two or three passages of play then you should expect a yellow card. The ref was lenient on Italy infringing constantly.

 So if you could set the leniency angle aside for one moment.

 Do you the think there might be some other reason why he didnt issue any yellow cards against the Italian players?

No. I think it was a case of cutting the whipping boys some slack in front of their own fans. Re-enforced by the speed at which he awarded Italy a penaly try and yellow carded Ireland.

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Post by SecretFly Sun 12 Feb 2017, 3:07 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
 Fly, there aint a hell of a lot difference between "Pity on Italy' and leniency on Italy.

 If he was trying to make the game competitive, then didnt do a very good job of it.
 If we take the discretion from the referees you will kill the very adventure and spirit of the game, lets encourage more teams to play rugby rather than just sit back and wait for the referee to play the game for them, Ireland played well yesterday.

Pity and leniency is all I can come up with.  So I stick with both.  I was laughing anyway when I thought about that period of the game leading up to O'Mahony oops Ryan going off.

Ireland played okay.  Still need quite a bit more consistent creativity to take some pressure off those forwards.


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Post by Rory_Gallagher Sun 12 Feb 2017, 3:09 pm

Scottrf wrote:If anyone was wondering if Irish fans would moan about the ref when winning 63-10...

Who's moaning? I think it is a fair comment to point out that Italy possibly escaped a yellow card that other teams would have been penalised for. Is that not fair to discuss?

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Post by aucklandlaurie Sun 12 Feb 2017, 3:10 pm

catchweight wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
catchweight wrote:If you infringe 3 or 4 times defending on your 5 meter line within the same two or three passages of play then you should expect a yellow card. The ref was lenient on Italy infringing constantly.

 So if you could set the leniency angle aside for one moment.

 Do you the think there might be some other reason why he didnt issue any yellow cards against the Italian players?

No. I think it was a case of cutting the whipping boys some slack in front of their own fans. Re-enforced by the speed at which he awarded Italy a penaly try and yellow carded Ireland.

 ..and you dont think the difference in the type of offending influenced him in any way?

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Post by SecretFly Sun 12 Feb 2017, 3:11 pm

Scottrf wrote:If anyone was wondering if Irish fans would moan about the ref when winning 63-10...

That's perfectionism for you. Never happy. OK

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Post by catchweight Sun 12 Feb 2017, 3:15 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
catchweight wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
catchweight wrote:If you infringe 3 or 4 times defending on your 5 meter line within the same two or three passages of play then you should expect a yellow card. The ref was lenient on Italy infringing constantly.

 So if you could set the leniency angle aside for one moment.

 Do you the think there might be some other reason why he didnt issue any yellow cards against the Italian players?

No. I think it was a case of cutting the whipping boys some slack in front of their own fans. Re-enforced by the speed at which he awarded Italy a penaly try and yellow carded Ireland.

 ..and you dont think the difference in the type of offending influenced him in any way?

No. Just a case of the home team catching a break from the ref. If it happened in Dublin with an Irish crowd howling every infraction he would have probably gone to his pocket. Italy deserved it. Probably wouldnt have awarded the penalty try either, mind.

But the home team getting the benefit of the doubt with the ref is nothing new. It generally happens. This was merely a case in point in my opinion.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher Sun 12 Feb 2017, 3:15 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
SecretFly wrote:I'm not sure you could plant an anti-Ulster bias at Schmidt's feet, which I think is quite pointedly the point being made by Rory.

What did Joe Schmidt say about Jackson?  
Who is his Team Captain?
Which Ulster wing did he play last week when the player was way off International form?  
What Ulster wing seems to be a favourite nailed-on option for Schmidt when he's fit?
Haven't some Ulster fans in this forum stated that on current Provincial form not many Ulster players are putting their hands up?

Sensitivity I suppose is to be expected given the present feeling in Ulster about their Province, coaches, Nucifora, player transfers etc.  I can understand the feeling that 'everyone is out to get us' but I can't share that view of Schmidt when looking from outside the Ulster bubble.  No player on the Irish team has gotten it in the neck more pointedly from Schmidt than Simon Zebo - and look at him, a player that has worked through his black-sheep period and now I'm sure the coach and the player understand each other and realise they both want the same thing - performance + success.

I don't know what it is, I'm just pointing out something that is happening. Ulster players receive direct criticism from Schmidt after the games and I don't know why. But it happens. It doesn't happen for other players who come into the system, especially not those from Leinster.

And yes, Ulster are crap this season. I said it myself that Ireland would be better off without the Ulster players this year. How does criticising a player in the media, one who played well, help that though? How is that going to build confidence? Like I said, I think Schmidt is covering his tracks as he plans to immediately drop him.

I can't say that Schmidt is biased against Ulster, but it doesn't look good when he has critised McCloskey and Gilroy, when players from other Provinces seem to get a free pass.

I do believe Schmidt has decided not to play these players for the next game, and get's his excuses in early by informing the public of what he perceives as their failings. Some would say that's ruthless, and it is, but it's also cowardly.

Just my opinion.

Luke Marshall after the Canada game as well. Meanwhile some of his old guard (Leinster players) get a free pass. I know this will annoy people and it looks as if I am being bitter about Ulster players, but I'm just pointing out something that is happening. Schmidt will always be kinder towards his previous club, it is natural, but it may harm the team.

I must reiterate, Ireland could have picked their starting XV for this tournament without a single Ulsterman (bar Best) and that would have been entirely justified. Ulster have been so poor and many players off form. However, when they do play well for Ireland, it is strange when Schmidt bluntly criticises them in the media. Even when they don't play well, he doesn't have the same approach with others.

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Post by aucklandlaurie Sun 12 Feb 2017, 3:25 pm

SecretFly wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
 Fly, there aint a hell of a lot difference between "Pity on Italy' and leniency on Italy.

 If he was trying to make the game competitive, then didnt do a very good job of it.
 If we take the discretion from the referees you will kill the very adventure and spirit of the game, lets encourage more teams to play rugby rather than just sit back and wait for the referee to play the game for them, Ireland played well yesterday.

Pity and leniency is all I can come up with.  So I stick with both.  I was laughing anyway when I thought about that period of the game leading up to O'Mahony oops Ryan going off.

Ireland played okay.  Still need quite a bit more consistent creativity to take some pressure off those forwards.

 From a neutrals observation, that game was just the medicine for Schmidt and your team, and it came at just the right time after the Scottish experience. Every team has that difficult opening stanza against Italy.

 I wouldnt be too hard on your backs either, once you get Sexton back its the forwards that will have to deliver more, literally. Im not criticizing Sander for scoring tries but all the forwards (and halfback) need to give Sexton that quality ball and he will guide you all over the field. When is he back by way?

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Post by aucklandlaurie Sun 12 Feb 2017, 3:28 pm

catchweight wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
catchweight wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
catchweight wrote:If you infringe 3 or 4 times defending on your 5 meter line within the same two or three passages of play then you should expect a yellow card. The ref was lenient on Italy infringing constantly.

 So if you could set the leniency angle aside for one moment.

 Do you the think there might be some other reason why he didnt issue any yellow cards against the Italian players?

No. I think it was a case of cutting the whipping boys some slack in front of their own fans. Re-enforced by the speed at which he awarded Italy a penaly try and yellow carded Ireland.

 ..and you dont think the difference in the type of offending influenced him in any way?

No. Just a case of the home team catching a break from the ref. If it happened in Dublin with an Irish crowd howling every infraction he would have probably gone to his pocket. Italy deserved it. Probably wouldnt have awarded the penalty try either, mind.

But the home team getting the benefit of the doubt with the ref is nothing new. It generally happens. This was merely a case in point in my opinion.

 Thats OK, But no referee should be influenced by the crowd, and I dont think Jackson was influenced in any way by the Romans.

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Post by SecretFly Sun 12 Feb 2017, 3:31 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:

 I wouldnt be too hard on your backs either, once you get Sexton back its the forwards that will have to deliver more, literally. Im not criticizing Sander for scoring tries but all the forwards (and halfback) need to give Sexton that quality ball and he will guide you all over the field. When is he back by way?

We don't really know, laurie. But it seems he'll now have to fight for his place and Jackson looks to have done enough in Schmidt's eyes to start against France. Paddy has been playing great and mixing it up well. I'm always more settled in my heart about his kicking for points too .... even that impossible "wounded duck" (as Joe called it) shot somehow veered between the posts.


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Post by Rory_Gallagher Sun 12 Feb 2017, 3:34 pm

Sexton will start against France.

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Post by aucklandlaurie Sun 12 Feb 2017, 3:40 pm

SecretFly wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:

 I wouldnt be too hard on your backs either, once you get Sexton back its the forwards that will have to deliver more, literally. Im not criticizing Sander for scoring tries but all the forwards (and halfback) need to give Sexton that quality ball and he will guide you all over the field. When is he back by way?

We don't really know, laurie.  But it seems he'll now have to fight for his place and Jackson looks to have done enough in Schmidt's eyes to start against France.  Paddy has been playing great and mixing it up well.  I'm always more settled in my heart about his kicking for points too .... even that impossible "wounded duck" (as Joe called it) shot somehow veered between the posts.


 Yes he's points on the board with his kicking, I just have that gut feeling that with the more Defensive opposition to come,Sexton will get you in around/behind/over that D line. I should also add that I haven't seen a lot of Jackson to be too critical.

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Post by geoff999rugby Sun 12 Feb 2017, 5:40 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sexton will start against France.

Then go off after 20 mins with some knock or other.
I am wondering if his body is still up to it - I have my doubts

Fact is Jackson has started something like 6 of the last 8 games

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Post by wolfball Sun 12 Feb 2017, 8:36 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sexton will start against France.

Then go off after 20 mins with some knock or other.
I am wondering if his body is still up to it - I have my doubts

Fact is Jackson has started something like 6 of the last 8 games

Jackson has done very well. He was poor in the first half against scotland, not dealing with the scottish rush defence by kicking more was alot of the reason we were smashed back on the gainline last week. His second half, and his full game yesterday were brilliant, his game management was excellent, he mixed things up great, kicked from tee perfectly and I cannot recall any mistakes. He would be my preference to start against France.

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Post by marty2086 Mon 13 Feb 2017, 9:29 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sexton will start against France.

Then go off after 20 mins with some knock or other.
I am wondering if his body is still up to it - I have my doubts

Fact is Jackson has started something like 6 of the last 8 games

Sexton needs a prolonged break, too often he plays through injury and it has an adverse affect

If Sexton is deemed by Joe to be available and he goes with Jackson I wonder if it will force him to look after his body more or will drive him to take greater risks with his body

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Post by GunsGermsV2 Mon 13 Feb 2017, 9:33 am

Id select Jackson over Sexton at this point. Jackson is getting better all the time whereas Sexton is getting injured all the time.

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Post by rodders Mon 13 Feb 2017, 9:42 am

Munchkin wrote:
I can't say that Schmidt is biased against Ulster, but it doesn't look good when he has critised McCloskey and Gilroy, when players from other Provinces seem to get a free pass.

I do believe Schmidt has decided not to play these players for the next game, and get's his excuses in early by informing the public of what he perceives as their failings. Some would say that's ruthless, and it is, but it's also cowardly.

Just my opinion.

If you look back to the Autumn he was very critical of Gary Ringrose after the Australia game when everyone else was lauding his performances.

I think he is just reiterating the standards he expects and keeping players feet on the ground to keep improving.

Overall a great result but not the best performance. The title is in our hands but we'll need to improve to win our next 3 games.

Stander was immense again and Jackson had a great game.
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Post by rapidsnowman Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:11 am

The only thing I feel Sexton brings that Jackson doesn't (yet) - is that relentless drive.

Sexton is relentless in his pursuit of victory. He is a bit like Roy Keane in that regard. He will have a go at his team mates and spur them on. You could argue the backline needs someone with his character more than his actual skills/ability.

Jackson has certainly done everything asked of him and more.

Even if Sexton starts against France, with those giant French forwards rolling down the 10 channel, it won't be long before Paddy is on .

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Post by rodders Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:23 am

I agree Rapid but I'd extend that across the backs, they are all fairly quiet characters, I think that is why Schmidt values Kearney and Payne so highly.

I do think Jackson has a better and more varied range of passing than Sexton - he's obviously taken feedback to attack the line more as well so potentially offers more later in the game than Sexton when defenses are tiring.

I think we'll see Trimble and Sexton come into the starting side, maybe Henderson, O'Mahoney is an interesting call because Heaslip and Stander are both 80 minute men and 6 is covered by Henderson, Ryan and or Dillane so will he stick with VDF as cover for O'Brien, I think so.
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