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6N 2017: Wales v England, 11 February

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 13 Feb 2017, 11:36 am

First topic message reminder :

If the team as a whole can deal with it its not a big problem. He's not a revolving door in defence, makes his tackles and for the vast majority of the game Wales weren't threatening a try.

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Post by SecretFly Mon 13 Feb 2017, 4:04 pm

eirebilly wrote:I know it was a great pass that sent Daly away but doesn't anyone think that Cuthbert should be making the tackle there or at least ankle tapping him? I thought it was a feeble attempt myself.

You must be mistaken, billy. Think again.

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Post by eirebilly Mon 13 Feb 2017, 4:06 pm

Must have missed those inbetween the comments of how good Farrell's pass was.
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Post by dummy_half Mon 13 Feb 2017, 9:50 pm

Finally got round to watching the entire game (too much family stuff over the weekend).

Comments:
Great intensity from both defences. England showed again (as against France) that they probably scramble in defence better than any other side at the moment

Almost all the best players on the field were forwards - Moriarty was immense for Wales for the 55 minutes he was on, and his two back row colleagues were running him close. For England, Launchbury, Itoje and Lawes were absolute Trojans, and Cole and Marler worked their socks off.

Best match I've seen Biggar play in a long time - looked to be playing more heads-up and less 'rugby by numbers', closer to the game line (last couple of years he's got ever deeper).

Not sure why Youngs is getting stick - don't remember any bad passes and he was doing the basics well of getting to the ruck and just whipping the ball away.

First 20 and last 15 England were the better side, Wales better through the middle of the match, but neither side to the extent of putting the game out of sight.

Wales try was very well executed. I'm not sure Nowell can get across to cover his opposing winger as he would leave a big blindside gap if he goes earlier. Probably the best way to defend that play would be for Farrell to cover the winger and Nowell and Clifford to fill in behind (being wise after the event). Sometimes though you just have to say it was a good move.

Re the match winning try - why was JD2 taking the clearance kick anyway? Poor execution as well and then excellent execution from England to get Daly on the outside of Cuthbert. Yes, England did it well, but it started from a Wales mistake and then a bit of lazy coverage from Cuthbert letting Daly have the ball and 20 yards to the touchline.


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Post by Exiledinborders Mon 13 Feb 2017, 11:30 pm

SecretFly wrote:
cascough wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Same tactic...same dumb move.  I always say don't be kicking back to hard-running sides willing to come back at pace and using that momentum of the catch so far up field to become virtually unstoppable.

England pounced...but it WAS a massive bloody mistake.

Of course it was, but the game didn't hinge on Davies missing touch. That entire situation only existed because of everything that had gone before.

The situation didn't have to be kicked away so hopelessly.  The difference in the final score is the try.  I think everyone that watched that game gulped when they saw that one going off - I think a lot of people were mouthing, "What the f**k?"
When JD2 kicked you could hear his namesake on the commentary let out a cry as he could see what was coming. A wonderful moment.

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Post by englandglory4ever Tue 14 Feb 2017, 7:13 am

"Why was JD taking the kick anyway?" Because Biggar was off his feet at the bottom of a ruck overturning England ball illegally. The ref let it go. As it turned out it was fortunate for England in the end. Swing low.

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Post by cascough Tue 14 Feb 2017, 8:12 am

milkyboy wrote:
cascough wrote:
milkyboy wrote:
cascough wrote:
englandglory4ever wrote:The Welsh try was caused by bad defending by Nowell. He tried to track the Welsh winger but was too late. You will find it was Nowell who made the last gasp attempt at a tackle. Nowell let his opposition through, simple.

Agree entirely.

Credit to Wales, it was a lovely strike move, but our midfield did exactly as it should have done. Farrell hit S Williams and Joseph marked Davies. If Farrell gambles and hits L Williams instead but the ball is given to S Williams on the crash then it's a defensive error and S Williams is walking it in. If Joseph gambles and steps into L Williams  and the ball goes out the back then Davies is waltzing through a huge hole.

As it is, neither gambles, they both stick to their job. What was needed was Nowell to stick to his man and track L Williams sooner, especially given that L Williams had just been up to Webb and given him the call (although I appreciate just because the TV cameras picked that up in real time doesn't necessarily mean Nowell could have easily spotted it).

Miaow, your original point was that Joseph lacked the physicality to defend at 13 in Gatlands system. You've now switched to trying to pick up on any defensive mistakes he makes. Even if you think this is one, which I don't for the reasons I've explained above, it doesn't pertain to your original point.

It looks very much like you've made a snap judgement without really thinking about it or looking at the evidence and are now trying to justify that afterwards.

I'm no defensive coach, so I'm not claiming to know who has responsibility for what in every situation. I'm happy to buy into nowell being slow to get across. It looks like he was very late setting off. It also looked to me like Joseph continued to step up when the rest of the defensive line held... creating a hole you could drive a bus through. At what point does situational awareness trump marking your man and trusting the system?

But what situation should Joseph have been aware of?

It was perfectly executed and it wasn't until the last second that it was clear which man it was going to.


... the situation that they had a spare man.  Looked to me he had stepped up out of position, had he held his position he'd have had a choice to make about whether to leave his man for williams. Clearly, had nowell got across it's a decision he wouldn't have to make regardless.

It was a well executed move, but the way some are talking, a few dummy runners and a pop up pass is unstoppable from first phase if executed correctly. I doubt the england coaching staff see it that way.

I'm no defensive coach either, but I'd be amazed if they would want a player to guess which man a ball was going to, rather than each player stick to his man.

I agree, I doubt the England coaching team see that move as unstoppable, I expect they will want the blindside winger to track his man better next time.

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Post by cascough Tue 14 Feb 2017, 8:15 am

SecretFly wrote:
cascough wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Same tactic...same dumb move.  I always say don't be kicking back to hard-running sides willing to come back at pace and using that momentum of the catch so far up field to become virtually unstoppable.

England pounced...but it WAS a massive bloody mistake.

Of course it was, but the game didn't hinge on Davies missing touch. That entire situation only existed because of everything that had gone before.

The situation didn't have to be kicked away so hopelessly.  The difference in the final score is the try.  I think everyone that watched that game gulped when they saw that one going off - I think a lot of people were mouthing, "What the f**k?"

The difference in the score was 5 points. England scored 21 in the match. They came throughout the match. Each one of those points was preventable, why is this mistake (harsh on Sinckler, btw. two sides to every story) any more important than others players have made in the lead up to the other 14 of Englands points.

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Post by Scottrf Tue 14 Feb 2017, 8:52 am

cascough wrote:The difference in the score was 5 points. England scored 21 in the match. They came throughout the match. Each one of those points was preventable, why is this mistake (harsh on Sinckler, btw. two sides to every story) any more important than others players have made in the lead up to the other 14 of Englands points.
You think defence of a hard fought try through 20 phases is going to be critiqued to the same extend as, for example, someone throwing a preventable intercept leading to an open goal? It's more important because it's more easily preventable and the situation is common.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 14 Feb 2017, 9:10 am

Clearly a tactic though for Wales throughout the match so was each of those kicks a mistake or is this only a mistake because of the outcome?

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Post by Scottrf Tue 14 Feb 2017, 9:23 am

A tactic to kick to the 10 in space without cover that side? A mistake because of the situation not the outcome.

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Post by TightHEAD Tue 14 Feb 2017, 9:24 am

Has anyone talked about Farrells pass?
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Post by GunsGermsV2 Tue 14 Feb 2017, 9:26 am

TightHEAD wrote:Has anyone talked about Farrells pass?

It was a great pass. I dont like him much because he permanently has a puss on his face but that was a good pass.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 14 Feb 2017, 9:29 am

Tactic to kick in field all game I'd say Scott. I'm not really a big fan of picking out 1 instance or set of plays from a whole game and blaming that point though.

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Post by Scottrf Tue 14 Feb 2017, 9:33 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Tactic to kick in field all game I'd say Scott. I'm not really a big fan of picking out 1 instance or set of plays from a whole game and blaming that point though.
Even if you accept that it's a tactic to keep it in play, and you can just use a tactic no matter the circumstance, it was awful placement.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 14 Feb 2017, 9:35 am

I've seen better kicks but I saw worse mistakes through the match as well.

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Post by TightHEAD Tue 14 Feb 2017, 9:35 am

Has anyone mentioned Fords pass........what a cracker....joy to see.
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Post by Guest Tue 14 Feb 2017, 9:43 am

Christ, I can't wait 'til you lot lose! Talk about bad winners. vomit

And yes, I'm aware that I've bitten what the WUMs have offered when I should just ignore it Smile

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Post by Scottrf Tue 14 Feb 2017, 9:44 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I've seen better kicks but I saw worse mistakes through the match as well.
Circumstances matter in sport. Not everything is created equal. In tennis, the best players have higher win rates on the important points. The best golfers are known for their ability to deliver under pressure on the final day etc.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 14 Feb 2017, 9:46 am

Ah so a mistake that leads to a try after 20 min is a lesser event than the same mistake in the last 5 min. A mistake which is punished is worse than 1 which isn't. Can't agree. Why bad winners Griffin.

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Post by Guest Tue 14 Feb 2017, 9:47 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah so a mistake that leads to a try after 20 min is a lesser event than the same mistake in the last 5 min. A mistake which is punished is worse than 1 which isn't.  Can't agree. Why bad winners Griffin.

A lack of grace creeping into the posts since the win.  Look above.

Also, Griffin?! The mythical bird lion thing?

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Post by Scottrf Tue 14 Feb 2017, 9:48 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah so a mistake that leads to a try after 20 min is a lesser event than the same mistake in the last 5 min. A mistake which is punished is worse than 1 which isn't.  Can't agree. Why bad winners Griffin.
You're wrong then. A mistake which leads to a try after 5 minutes can be recovered from. A mistake which leads to a try at 80 minutes can't. Not all moments are created equal.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 14 Feb 2017, 9:52 am

Ha auto correct!

So the same mistake in the last 5 you judge differently on outcome then Scott. If Bigger runs in the intercept Youngs has made a horrendous mistake whereas it was smaller as Daly has serious pace. The game is 80 min not 5.

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Post by TightHEAD Tue 14 Feb 2017, 9:52 am

Griff wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah so a mistake that leads to a try after 20 min is a lesser event than the same mistake in the last 5 min. A mistake which is punished is worse than 1 which isn't.  Can't agree. Why bad winners Griffin.

A lack of grace creeping into the posts since the win.  Look above.

Also, Griffin?!  The mythical bird lion thing?

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Post by Scottrf Tue 14 Feb 2017, 9:54 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ha auto correct!

So the same mistake in the last 5 you judge differently on outcome then Scott.  If Bigger runs in the intercept Youngs has made a horrendous mistake whereas it was smaller as Daly has serious pace. The game is 80 min not 5.
Correct. But lets say you're winning. 80 minutes has gone. You can kick the ball out, but instead look for a try and throw an intercept pass and lose.

Now, compare with half time. Can kick the ball out but you want to press for a try. Throw an intercept pass and concede a try.

You really think that's the same mistake?

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Post by beshocked Tue 14 Feb 2017, 9:58 am

Even if Davies had kicked the ball out it still would have been an attacking lineout for England.

England were still exerting pressure in that period. Wales were trying to hold on.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 14 Feb 2017, 10:01 am

It's the same mistake but a different outcome Scott in terms of the match exactly the same in terms of points.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Tue 14 Feb 2017, 10:07 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ha auto correct!

So the same mistake in the last 5 you judge differently on outcome then Scott.  If Bigger runs in the intercept Youngs has made a horrendous mistake whereas it was smaller as Daly has serious pace. The game is 80 min not 5.

I'm with Scott on this one, Wales got 8 turnovers to Englands one but Sinckler getting over the top of the ball in the last minute was more important than those 8 turnovers because of circumstance. Farrell's conversion equally was more important than the others kicks he made.

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Post by Gooseberry Tue 14 Feb 2017, 10:09 am

Under different circumstances we could be slagging off Ford for booting possession away a few minutes earlier and totally overcooking it.
Sometimes it's not the decision that's the problem its the execution. The Welsh Chap did neither terribly well.

Yes of course it's one moment in a game and by no means the only piece of bad play and decision making. But when one side has been on top in terms of play and points for the majority of the game you're going to highlight a moment where they gift wrapped a game changing chance and somehow ended up losing.

England are riding their luck a bit. Playing into that is their fitness and confidence not to panic or give up...but sooner or later they will be on the wrong end of a piece of fortune or great play that makes the difference. They look vulnerable against decent but not great France and Wales sides. If they don't figure out how to get their own attack firing again then I really fancy Ireland to do them a kipper.



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Post by beshocked Tue 14 Feb 2017, 10:13 am

Outcomes matter no 7 & 1/2, I find it odd you think they don't.

Example of this was a big mistake by Russell against Ireland, because Maitland made a try saving intervention that big mistake hasn't really been talked about.

If it had led to a Scottish loss I am sure Russell would have been criticised heavily.


Some mistakes are punished, some are not. Some are more costly than others.

Davies mistake is obviously focused on because a try was scored in the subsequent attack but it wasn't an unforced error, Sinckler was pressurising him and England were pressing. Also 75 minutes into the game, fatigue will set in for those who have been on the pitch from the beginning.

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Post by Guest Tue 14 Feb 2017, 10:35 am

I'm with Scott and others on this too. If Cuthbert had made the tackle you may not have won the game, or more importantly you may not have had the time to win the game as the subsequent lineout, etc. may have taken a few minutes. However, had that incident been much earlier in the game and Cuthbert made the tackle, 20 or 30 mins earlier for example, then there might have been plenty of time. This is why us Welsh fans are so annoyed with Cuthbert. He gave him too much room on the outside. Had he made the tackle (ifs and buts) I reckon we might have won. We had another defender close at hand to secure the ruck. We may have even got a turnover as the rest of the English players were quite far away. Ifs and buts though, as I say! But certainly it was close enough to the end of the game to potentially be the last significant play of the game. So timing of the incident was very important and Wales did not have enough time to score points to turn it back around themselves.

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Post by cascough Tue 14 Feb 2017, 10:50 am

Griff wrote:Christ, I can't wait 'til you lot lose!  Talk about bad winners.   vomit

And yes, I'm aware that I've bitten what the WUMs have offered when I should just ignore it Smile

I'm sorry you think that, it's not a trait I'd like to perpetuate.

Wales were great, and it was a really close game. I just think it's wrong to suggest it comes down to 1 thing. The game is played over 80 minutes and points scored in the first minute are worth the same as points scored in the last minute.

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Post by robbo277 Tue 14 Feb 2017, 11:10 am

Gooseberry wrote:Under different circumstances we could be slagging off Ford for booting possession away a few minutes earlier and totally overcooking it.  
Sometimes it's not the decision that's the problem its the execution.  The Welsh Chap did neither terribly well.

Yes of course it's one moment in a game and by no means the only piece of bad play and decision making. But when one side has been on top in terms of play and points for the majority of the game you're going to highlight a moment where they gift wrapped a game changing chance and somehow ended up losing.

England are riding their luck a bit. Playing into that is their fitness and confidence not to panic or give up...but sooner or later they will be on the wrong end of a piece of fortune or great play that makes the difference.  They look vulnerable against decent but not great France and Wales sides. If they don't figure out how to get their own attack firing again then I really fancy Ireland to do them a kipper.



The old adage goes a kick is only as good as it's chase. A good chase from England chasing the game could turn an "overcooked" kick into a very good one.

Davies kick was harder to salvage. From the graphic below, you can see Wales had 10 players honey-potted around the ruck onside. This has also caused Roberts and Cuthbert to "suck in" towards the ruck.

If Davies kicked for touch, a good kick would have been dropped in the stands by a drunk spectator, a bad kick would have been taken by May (either in touch but with a quick throw available, or infield) or Brown, but there would have been a couple more hands to go through. This would have allowed a good chase to come straight up and put pressure on England's backfield attack, and salvage the bad kick.

I'm sure Davies was trying to keep the ball in field and he hit Ford. He ran with pace and hit Farrell wide to cut out 13 Welsh defenders. It wasn't a bad kick per se, it was the wrong kicking option at that time.

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Post by cascough Tue 14 Feb 2017, 11:12 am

Griff wrote:I'm with Scott and others on this too.  If Cuthbert had made the tackle you may not have won the game, or more importantly you may not have had the time to win the game as the subsequent lineout, etc. may have taken a few minutes.  However, had that incident been much earlier in the game and Cuthbert made the tackle, 20 or 30 mins earlier for example, then there might have been plenty of time.  This is why us Welsh fans are so annoyed with Cuthbert.  He gave him too much room on the outside.  Had he made the tackle (ifs and buts) I reckon we might have won.  We had another defender close at hand to secure the ruck.  We may have even got a turnover as the rest of the English players were quite far away.  Ifs and buts though, as I say!  But certainly it was close enough to the end of the game to potentially be the last significant play of the game.  So timing of the incident was very important and Wales did not have enough time to score points to turn it back around themselves.

If if if.

If Garces had pinged the clearly illegal L Williams at the breakdown (and probably binned him) what happened would be totally different.

Don't you see? Even in that 1 play, there were a multitude of things happening or things that could have happened. It's never as simple as picking on 1 thing and decreeing that that decides the game.

It might make for a more lively discussion to hang it on 1 moment, but in truth it was a really even game that over the 80 minutes England just edged.

The whole "England were outplayed for 76 minutes" and "but for a missed kick Wales would have won" are nothing more than newspaper headlines for me. Designed to sensationalise.

Do you really think Wales will be analysing the game this week and say "Right boys, go out and do exactly the same thing as you did for 80 minutes, except kick it out if it's near the end of the game". I don't, I think they will be looking at their decision making and execution throughout the whole game and working on what they might do better. How can they give away less penalties, how can they secure possession better, how do they cut down on individual errors.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 Tue 14 Feb 2017, 11:17 am

Griff wrote:I'm with Scott and others on this too.  If Cuthbert had made the tackle you may not have won the game, or more importantly you may not have had the time to win the game as the subsequent lineout, etc. may have taken a few minutes.  However, had that incident been much earlier in the game and Cuthbert made the tackle, 20 or 30 mins earlier for example, then there might have been plenty of time.  This is why us Welsh fans are so annoyed with Cuthbert.  He gave him too much room on the outside.  Had he made the tackle (ifs and buts) I reckon we might have won.  We had another defender close at hand to secure the ruck.  We may have even got a turnover as the rest of the English players were quite far away.  Ifs and buts though, as I say!  But certainly it was close enough to the end of the game to potentially be the last significant play of the game.  So timing of the incident was very important and Wales did not have enough time to score points to turn it back around themselves.

Cuthbert is rubbish, but it's not his fault he keeps getting picked.

Secondly Davis (golden boy JD2) did him and the rest of the Welsh team no favours at all. That ball should have been punted into the stands instead of being punted down the throat and into the hands to such a dangerous winger like Daly. England were smelling blood and ready to pounce on the defence (stretched beyond the breaking point) that didn't have time to reset.

Cuthbert left too much of a gap but Davis put his team under all kinds of pressure with such a dreadful clearing kick.
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Post by Gooseberry Tue 14 Feb 2017, 11:19 am

As a point ...earlier in the game Cuthbert did make a tackle that probably saved a try.

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Post by Guest Tue 14 Feb 2017, 11:31 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Griff wrote:I'm with Scott and others on this too.  If Cuthbert had made the tackle you may not have won the game, or more importantly you may not have had the time to win the game as the subsequent lineout, etc. may have taken a few minutes.  However, had that incident been much earlier in the game and Cuthbert made the tackle, 20 or 30 mins earlier for example, then there might have been plenty of time.  This is why us Welsh fans are so annoyed with Cuthbert.  He gave him too much room on the outside.  Had he made the tackle (ifs and buts) I reckon we might have won.  We had another defender close at hand to secure the ruck.  We may have even got a turnover as the rest of the English players were quite far away.  Ifs and buts though, as I say!  But certainly it was close enough to the end of the game to potentially be the last significant play of the game.  So timing of the incident was very important and Wales did not have enough time to score points to turn it back around themselves.

Cuthbert is rubbish, but it's not his fault he keeps getting picked.

Secondly Davis (golden boy JD2) did him and the rest of the Welsh team no favours at all. That ball should have been punted into the stands instead of being punted down the throat and into the hands to such a dangerous winger like Daly. England were smelling blood and ready to pounce on the defence (stretched beyond the breaking point) that didn't have time to reset.

Cuthbert left too much of a gap but Davis put his team under all kinds of pressure with such a dreadful clearing kick.

We're talking about timing of incidents in the game of rugby in general.

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Post by majesticimperialman Tue 14 Feb 2017, 11:34 am

It all comes down to who is to blame for the England try at the end of the game?

Is it Alex Cuthbert for not making that tackle on Daily?

Or is it Johnathon Davies clearance kick?

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Post by Scottrf Tue 14 Feb 2017, 11:36 am

majesticimperialman wrote:It all comes down to who is to blame for the England try at the end of the game?

Is it Alex Cuthbert for not making that tackle on Daily?

Or is it Johnathon Davies clearance kick?
Both? And others too? They were after all in a poor position on the field.

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Post by Guest Tue 14 Feb 2017, 11:36 am

cascough wrote:
Griff wrote:I'm with Scott and others on this too.  If Cuthbert had made the tackle you may not have won the game, or more importantly you may not have had the time to win the game as the subsequent lineout, etc. may have taken a few minutes.  However, had that incident been much earlier in the game and Cuthbert made the tackle, 20 or 30 mins earlier for example, then there might have been plenty of time.  This is why us Welsh fans are so annoyed with Cuthbert.  He gave him too much room on the outside.  Had he made the tackle (ifs and buts) I reckon we might have won.  We had another defender close at hand to secure the ruck.  We may have even got a turnover as the rest of the English players were quite far away.  Ifs and buts though, as I say!  But certainly it was close enough to the end of the game to potentially be the last significant play of the game.  So timing of the incident was very important and Wales did not have enough time to score points to turn it back around themselves.

If if if.

If Garces had pinged the clearly illegal L Williams at the breakdown (and probably binned him) what happened would be totally different.

Don't you see? Even in that 1 play, there were a multitude of things happening or things that could have happened. It's never as simple as picking on 1 thing and decreeing that that decides the game.

It might make for a more lively discussion to hang it on 1 moment, but in truth it was a really even game that over the 80 minutes England just edged.

The whole "England were outplayed for 76 minutes" and "but for a missed kick Wales would have won" are nothing more than newspaper headlines for me. Designed to sensationalise.

Do you really think Wales will be analysing the game this week and say "Right boys, go out and do exactly the same thing as you did for 80 minutes, except kick it out if it's near the end of the game". I don't, I think they will be looking at their decision making and execution throughout the whole game and working on what they might do better. How can they give away less penalties, how can they secure possession better, how do they cut down on individual errors.


We're talking about timing of incidents in the game.  Had the Davies kick been 20 minutes earlier and still led to a try then who knows?  Maybe Wales could have come back and won it.  That's why, for me, timing of an incident is important.  That's all we're discussing here.

Here's another example:  Australia (Kurtley Beale) scored against Wales after the 80mins was up.  It put them in the lead (Wales were leading up to that point) from which it was impossible for Wales to come back as time was up.  So timing is important.  Yes, what goes before it gets you to that point.  But if there is an incident that leads to points right before the final whistle, or very close, then that is hugely significant as it is nigh on impossible for the other team to come back from it.

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Post by beshocked Tue 14 Feb 2017, 11:38 am

Gooseberry I wouldn't say England are riding their luck - on at least two occasions the bounce of the ball went in Wales favour and led to huge gains - one being for Biggar.

I wouldn't call it luck that England's "finishers" not for the first time have helped England win. You have to perform for 80+ minutes.

Agree with cascough. Obviously England were pressurising Wales at the time of Jonathan Davies kick.

If you haven't built a big enough lead going into the final stages of the game you are always potentially vulnerable.


It was also 14-16, a penalty could have potentially won the match. Not as if Wales were defending a big lead.

England had the upper hand in the final 10.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Tue 14 Feb 2017, 11:39 am

Or you could just say - it was a very close game with possession and territory about equal.
However, England looked more dangerous when they had the ball , had the edge in the set piece & a better bench.

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Post by Barney McGrew did it Tue 14 Feb 2017, 11:40 am

Sorry for being a bad winner but I don’t buy the ‘it went down to the wire’ and ‘either side could have won it’ lines. Wales deserved the win as much as in any of their last dozen or so games against Aus, ie not at all. England had the 1st 30 minutes and the last 20 – they scored when they had to and they never let Wales get too far ahead. When the ABs do this it’s called great game management.

Having said that England aren’t playing well enough to go unbeaten for the whole competition IMO and I think Ireland will fancy their chances at home.
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Post by beshocked Tue 14 Feb 2017, 11:42 am

It would be like me saying Wales win in the RWC was lucky. I don't think it was. You have to do enough to win the game. Wales did that in the RWC, England did it in this match.

It's about being resilient enough and in both occasions the team that finished stronger won.

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Post by cascough Tue 14 Feb 2017, 11:49 am

Griff wrote:
cascough wrote:
Griff wrote:I'm with Scott and others on this too.  If Cuthbert had made the tackle you may not have won the game, or more importantly you may not have had the time to win the game as the subsequent lineout, etc. may have taken a few minutes.  However, had that incident been much earlier in the game and Cuthbert made the tackle, 20 or 30 mins earlier for example, then there might have been plenty of time.  This is why us Welsh fans are so annoyed with Cuthbert.  He gave him too much room on the outside.  Had he made the tackle (ifs and buts) I reckon we might have won.  We had another defender close at hand to secure the ruck.  We may have even got a turnover as the rest of the English players were quite far away.  Ifs and buts though, as I say!  But certainly it was close enough to the end of the game to potentially be the last significant play of the game.  So timing of the incident was very important and Wales did not have enough time to score points to turn it back around themselves.

If if if.

If Garces had pinged the clearly illegal L Williams at the breakdown (and probably binned him) what happened would be totally different.

Don't you see? Even in that 1 play, there were a multitude of things happening or things that could have happened. It's never as simple as picking on 1 thing and decreeing that that decides the game.

It might make for a more lively discussion to hang it on 1 moment, but in truth it was a really even game that over the 80 minutes England just edged.

The whole "England were outplayed for 76 minutes" and "but for a missed kick Wales would have won" are nothing more than newspaper headlines for me. Designed to sensationalise.

Do you really think Wales will be analysing the game this week and say "Right boys, go out and do exactly the same thing as you did for 80 minutes, except kick it out if it's near the end of the game". I don't, I think they will be looking at their decision making and execution throughout the whole game and working on what they might do better. How can they give away less penalties, how can they secure possession better, how do they cut down on individual errors.



We're talking about timing of incidents in the game.  Had the Davies kick been 20 minutes earlier and still led to a try then who knows?  Maybe Wales could have come back and won it.  That's why, for me, timing of an incident is important.  That's all we're discussing here.

Here's another example:  Australia (Kurtley Beale) scored against Wales after the 80mins was up.  It put them in the lead (Wales were leading up to that point) from which it was impossible for Wales to come back as time was up.  So timing is important.  Yes, what goes before it gets you to that point.  But if there is an incident that leads to points right before the final whistle, or very close, then that is hugely significant as it is nigh on impossible for the other team to come back from it.

This example only serves to underline my point.

Wales found themselves in a position of being without the ball at the end of the game with the potential to concede a try without being able to reply because of everything that had gone before. They weren't good enough to keep Australia out of reach. They got beaten over 80 minutes, simple as that. Australia on the other hand were good enough to stay in the game and keep pressuring right to the death, and were rewarded for it.

In the Australia case it happened 3 times was it? By a total of 5 points? It was no fluke. Australia weren't much better than Wales in those games for sure, they were close games. But better they were.

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Post by Gooseberry Tue 14 Feb 2017, 12:13 pm

....although recently Wales have had a good record of closing out tight games.

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Post by Guest Tue 14 Feb 2017, 12:22 pm

Who is saying that England (or Aus in the example above) were not better?!  England deserved the win because they scored more points.  I'm just stating that it did go down to the wire.  4 minutes from the end is a late score to win the game.  That the score at the end was decisive.  It changed the scoreline from a losing one for England to a winning one at a time in the game that the opposition could not realistically come back.  Surely that's the epitome of decisive.  And also that timing is important.  As Scott says above, some incidents and scores in a game happen at a time when it is not possible to recover e.g. 80 mins.  

England did not run away with this game.  It was not a 30 point drubbing.  It was close. And it came down to a stupid kick at the end, which was superbly finished.  We'll never know what would have happened if the kick went to touch, or if someone else had kicked it, or if we'd run it from our own line.  But that kick gave England the chance to score the try.  It was the opportunity that you needed.  Therefore, I say, it was decisive.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 14 Feb 2017, 12:47 pm

If we're talking about mistakes we should focus on what they were not what happened after the mistakes were made. A knock on is a knock on a pass to touch is a pass to touch.

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Post by Scottrf Tue 14 Feb 2017, 12:51 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:If we're talking about mistakes we should focus on what they were not what happened after the mistakes were made. A knock on is a knock on a pass to touch is a pass to touch.
What you keep ignoring is that what is different is the circumstances surrounding it. Knocking on an easy pass to miss out on a game winning try isn't the same as knocking on in the middle of the field in heavy traffic no matter how much you try to make it so.

A bad kick isn't just a bad kick, the extent to which it's bad depends on the situation on field and in the game.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 14 Feb 2017, 12:54 pm

Of course I'm ignoring circumstances because I'm judging potential mistakes or actual ones rather than what happened afterwards.the same as some ate ignoring what happened in 76 odd min of a match.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Tue 14 Feb 2017, 12:54 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:If we're talking about mistakes we should focus on what they were not what happened after the mistakes were made. A knock on is a knock on a pass to touch is a pass to touch.

Sorry but that's simply wrong, context is everything.

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