6N 2017: Scotland vs Wales, 25th Feb

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Scotland vs Wales


Date: Saturday 25th February 2017
Venue: BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Kick Off: 2:25pm
Referee: John Lacey (Ireland)
TV Coverage: Live on BBC

Weather Update


Teams

Scotland

1. Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors)
2. Faiser Brown (Glasgow Warriors)
3. Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors)
4. Richie Gray (Toulouse)
5. Johnny Gray (Glasgow Warriors)
6. John Barclay (C) (Scarlets)
7. John Hardie (Edinburgh)
8. Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors)

9. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors)
10. Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors)
11. Tim Visser (Harlequins)
12. Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors)
13. Huw Jones (Stormers)
14. Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors)
15. Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors)

Replacements

16 Ross Ford (Edinburgh)
17 Allan Dell (Edinburgh)
18 Simon Berghan (Edinburgh)
19 Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors)
20 Hamish Watson (Edinburgh)
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors)
22 Duncan Weir (Edinburgh)
23 Mark Bennett (Glasgow Warriors)


Wales

1 Rob Evans (Scarlets)
2 Ken Owens (Scarlets)
3 Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs)
4 Jake Ball (Scarlets)
5 Alun Wyn Jones (C) (Ospreys)
6 Sam Warburton (Cardiff Blues)
7 Justin Tipuric (Ospreys)
8 Ross Moriarty (Gloucester)

9 Rhys Webb (Ospreys)
10 Dan Biggar (Ospreys)
11 Liam Williams (Scarlets)
12 Scott Williams (Scarlets)
13 Jonathan Davies (Scarlets)
14 George North (Northampton)
15 Leigh Halfpenny (Toulon)

Replacements

16 Scott Baldwin (Ospreys)
17 Nicky Smith (Ospreys)
18 Samson Lee (Scarlets)
19 Luke Charteris (Bath)
20 Taulupe Faletau (Dragons)
21 Gareth Davies (Scarlets)
22 Sam Davies (Ospreys)
23 Jamie Roberts (Harlequins)

Lets hope they don't try the post ruck, false ruck trick!

Sorry RDW - if you lose to England and lose to Italy by > 15 you drop to 9th. Losing to Italy by <15 and to England by >16 keeps you in 8th

robbo277 wrote:I think the Welsh coaching set-up may have reached their shelf-life. Nothing wrong with them as coaches, but they're coming up 10 years in their roles and fresh voices and a fresh outlook may be necessary. Having won 3 Championships (and 2 Grand Slams) in 6 tournaments between 2008 and 2013, this will be Wales fourth tournament without silverware, and wins against the Southern Hemisphere teams still aren't materialising.

No offence Robbo, but that's a kind of "no s**t Sherlock" statement. Shelf-life was reached a few years ago, well past the sell-buy date now. Nothing positive from Wales for several years (apart from a bit of passion and bluster 2 weeks ago). Don't expect anything to change though. The coaches aren't capable and won't fall on their swords and the WRU lacks leadership and courage. We'll have the usual "chance to redeem themselves" bs. The coaches simply can't see how far they and the team are adrift from what's needed.

Gooseberry wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

BigGee wrote:

TJ wrote:trouble is Fagersons Sub is totally inexperienced is he not?

Zander is hardly the grizzled old vetern either! It is a lot to ask of him to keep putting in the 80 minute shifts in the front row, despite him managing it manfully so far.

Worth noting that England often use Mako Vunipola as an impact sub at loosehead, who is a fine player in the loose but technically not a great scrummager. Might be safe to let Berghan take him on for 15 minutes.

I don't think that's an accurate statement - he mangled his opposite number when he came on yesterday.

Through power and his opposite number being a disaster. Hes never been a technician. As a repacement hes usually coming up against either tired players or ones who get selected because the opposition had to select someone. International class tightheads are pretty rare, especially for smaller Unions like Italy.  Mako can get away with just a bit of brutality when with a completely fresh front row against the Italian second choices.
To be fair though loosehead is generaly not a greatly technical position and Mako has improved a bit ...some of his early caps he got absolutely spooned by more wiley opponents. Marler too started off with a reputation for being great in the loose but a terrible scrummager.

Either way they are both on a par in general terms, I just though Mako bought a lot more presence and the scrums later in the game were incredibnly dominant. If they push Scotland off their won ball early then that really would set a precedent for the game.

Agree 100%. Mako is a power player who can put the opposition on toast in a straight shoving contest, but can be negated if the opposition tighthead works the angle, shifts power or messes around with the binding. As you say, Mako is much improved from the penalty magnet he once was, but I still don't fear him at the set piece.

offload wrote:

robbo277 wrote:I think the Welsh coaching set-up may have reached their shelf-life. Nothing wrong with them as coaches, but they're coming up 10 years in their roles and fresh voices and a fresh outlook may be necessary. Having won 3 Championships (and 2 Grand Slams) in 6 tournaments between 2008 and 2013, this will be Wales fourth tournament without silverware, and wins against the Southern Hemisphere teams still aren't materialising.

No offence Robbo, but that's a kind of "no s**t Sherlock" statement.  Shelf-life was reached a few years ago, well past the sell-buy date now.  Nothing positive from Wales for several years (apart from a bit of passion and bluster 2 weeks ago).  Don't expect anything to change though.  The coaches aren't capable and won't fall on their swords and the WRU lacks leadership and courage.  We'll have the usual "chance to redeem themselves" bs.  The coaches simply can't see how far they and the team are adrift from what's needed.

You should do a deal with Montpellier and get Vern Cotter. Wales could benefit from Scotland's blunder.

Would Toonie be willing to swap jobs with Cotter you think? I think the SRU, Cotter, Toonie and Montpelier should come to a deal. I also think it would be in the interests of the SRU to pay Montpelier if need be to ensure they can keep Cotter until 2019 world cup or further. Toonie could coach Montpellier instead and gain valuable experience there with a group of players who are not all predominantly Scottish.

Obviously this is a bit crazy but considering the amazing progress Cotter has made I think questions need to be asked. Nightmare scenario would be Cotter becoming head coach of Wales or another NH side and having success there too.

No disrespect to Townsend, I'm happy to see him promoted but I just think they should of kept Cotter up until or past the RWC 2019

offload wrote:

robbo277 wrote:I think the Welsh coaching set-up may have reached their shelf-life. Nothing wrong with them as coaches, but they're coming up 10 years in their roles and fresh voices and a fresh outlook may be necessary. Having won 3 Championships (and 2 Grand Slams) in 6 tournaments between 2008 and 2013, this will be Wales fourth tournament without silverware, and wins against the Southern Hemisphere teams still aren't materialising.

No offence Robbo, but that's a kind of "no s**t Sherlock" statement.  Shelf-life was reached a few years ago, well past the sell-buy date now.  Nothing positive from Wales for several years (apart from a bit of passion and bluster 2 weeks ago).  Don't expect anything to change though.  The coaches aren't capable and won't fall on their swords and the WRU lacks leadership and courage.  We'll have the usual "chance to redeem themselves" bs.  The coaches simply can't see how far they and the team are adrift from what's needed.

If it were that obvious, they'd have been given their P45s. The fact that they haven't means it merits being said.

bsando wrote:Would Toonie be willing to swap jobs with Cotter you think? I think the SRU, Cotter, Toonie and Montpelier should come to a deal. I also think it would be in the interests of the SRU to pay Montpelier if need be to ensure they can keep Cotter until 2019 world cup or further. Toonie could coach Montpellier instead and gain valuable experience there with a group of players who are not all predominantly Scottish.

Obviously this is a bit crazy but considering the amazing progress Cotter has made I think questions need to be asked. Nightmare scenario would be Cotter becoming head coach of Wales or another NH side and having success there too.

No disrespect to Townsend, I'm happy to see him promoted but I just think they should of kept Cotter up until or past the RWC 2019

I think we all share your concern to be honest.

After seeing Glasgow's mixed bag this season I'm not so convinced, I feel that Toonie may just be riding on a wave of luck (much in the style of Clive Woodward), owing to the support staff and previous coaching of Glasgow. I just hope the boys take the lessons learnt under Cotter forward and the tombola comes out with the right balance of squad.

I can't help feeling we may be in for another rough year after this, even with Toonie's experience with the boys at Glasgow.

But here's hoping Gregor can replicate the Weegie culture from seasons past at test level.

robbo277 wrote:

offload wrote:

robbo277 wrote:I think the Welsh coaching set-up may have reached their shelf-life. Nothing wrong with them as coaches, but they're coming up 10 years in their roles and fresh voices and a fresh outlook may be necessary. Having won 3 Championships (and 2 Grand Slams) in 6 tournaments between 2008 and 2013, this will be Wales fourth tournament without silverware, and wins against the Southern Hemisphere teams still aren't materialising.

No offence Robbo, but that's a kind of "no s**t Sherlock" statement.  Shelf-life was reached a few years ago, well past the sell-buy date now.  Nothing positive from Wales for several years (apart from a bit of passion and bluster 2 weeks ago).  Don't expect anything to change though.  The coaches aren't capable and won't fall on their swords and the WRU lacks leadership and courage.  We'll have the usual "chance to redeem themselves" bs.  The coaches simply can't see how far they and the team are adrift from what's needed.

If it were that obvious, they'd have been given their P45s. The fact that they haven't means it merits being said.

I wish I had your confidence in the WRU to realise that enough is enough. It not only merits being said, it merits being repeated ad nauseam until "they" do something.

The WRU is complicit and in my opinion, actually has contributed to this demise in Welsh rugby.

Lets start with the patently obvious. Does anyone know why the WRU have seen fit to give 2 one year sabbaticals to their senior Coach? Shouldn't being head coach of Wales be enough, and if not isn't one sabbatical enough. Lets not forget Gatland also toured in 2009.

So, having decided amongst themselves that we can afford to let the guy steering the ship bugger off 2 years before the RWC for the last two cycles, we hand the reins to his sidekick and, thanks in the main to England's ineptitude we end up with a situation where Wales actually win the tourney under the stand in.

I know of no other sport or business that would tolerate this and allow an employee to pursue personal objectives at the obvious cost of the bigger picture. Now, based on excellent performances between 2008 and 2013 Wales are being held hostage by Gtaland and co and Howley is cashing in.

Personally if it means change I am all for Wales dissembling this season so that we get new coaches; we've had the same ideas for 9 years and we need new blood.

poissonrouge wrote:Sorry RDW - if you lose to England and lose to Italy by > 15 you drop to 9th. Losing to Italy by <15 and to England by >16 keeps you in 8th

Actually, England are so far ahead (plus they're playing at home) that Scotland could lose by 1000 points and it would make absolutely no difference to the rankings.

The Italy game is crucial, but Scotland have only lose by more than 16 once... and that was that game in 2007. I was just a little bit sick thinking about it.

IanBru wrote:

poissonrouge wrote:Sorry RDW - if you lose to England and lose to Italy by > 15 you drop to 9th. Losing to Italy by <15 and to England by >16 keeps you in 8th

Actually, England are so far ahead (plus they're playing at home) that Scotland could lose by 1000 points and it would make absolutely no difference to the rankings.

The Italy game is crucial, but Scotland have only lose by more than 16 once... and that was that game in 2007. I was just a little bit sick thinking about it.

Lets just beat England and take the pressure off :-)

Gwlad wrote:The WRU is complicit and in my opinion, actually has contributed to this demise in Welsh rugby.

Lets start with the patently obvious. Does anyone know why the WRU have seen fit to give 2 one year sabbaticals to their senior Coach? Shouldn't being head coach of Wales be enough, and if not isn't one sabbatical enough. Lets not forget Gatland also toured in 2009.

So, having decided amongst themselves that we can afford to let the guy steering the ship bugger off 2 years before the RWC for the last two cycles, we hand the reins to his sidekick and, thanks in the main to England's ineptitude we end up with a situation where Wales actually win the tourney under the stand in.

I know of no other sport or business that would tolerate this and allow an employee to pursue personal objectives at the obvious cost of the bigger picture. Now, based on excellent performances between 2008 and 2013 Wales are being held hostage by Gtaland and co and Howley is cashing in.

Personally if it means change I am all for Wales dissembling this season so that we get new coaches; we've had the same ideas for 9 years and we need new blood.

I'd assume the WRU have perhaps too big an emotional investment in the idea of the B&I Lions if all that you are saying makes sense and to a large degree it does. It seems to be a very casual/easy choice by WRU to give Gatland two shots at a sabbatical. The benefits for the WRU is I suppose the good emotions and publicity about the sport in the aftermath of the last Lions tour. The Welsh were central, the WRU were proud that it was their coach and I suppose the same was/is hoped for this year - a successful Lions tour with a good few Welsh players central to the results.

I agree fly

Does lions tour experiences make players better? I'd say yes.

If so you could argue that whatever people say on the contrary, I can't see how coaches won't favour their own players even subconsciously. They have strong relationships with such players, they can say... I know his game, I know what he's capable of... and the others will just have a few matches to convince.

Take Ian Evans for Joe Launchbury in 2013, a classic example.

You can't blame coaches for making such calls as its difficult to be completely unbaised and I think the WRU know it too. Not only are they making their home players better by having Gatland et al as coaches, they in part prevent their rivals from developing too.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

offload wrote:

robbo277 wrote:I think the Welsh coaching set-up may have reached their shelf-life. Nothing wrong with them as coaches, but they're coming up 10 years in their roles and fresh voices and a fresh outlook may be necessary. Having won 3 Championships (and 2 Grand Slams) in 6 tournaments between 2008 and 2013, this will be Wales fourth tournament without silverware, and wins against the Southern Hemisphere teams still aren't materialising.

No offence Robbo, but that's a kind of "no s**t Sherlock" statement.  Shelf-life was reached a few years ago, well past the sell-buy date now.  Nothing positive from Wales for several years (apart from a bit of passion and bluster 2 weeks ago).  Don't expect anything to change though.  The coaches aren't capable and won't fall on their swords and the WRU lacks leadership and courage.  We'll have the usual "chance to redeem themselves" bs.  The coaches simply can't see how far they and the team are adrift from what's needed.

You should do a deal with Montpellier and get Vern Cotter. Wales could benefit from Scotland's blunder.

Neither the WRU nor the SRU can afford Big Vern now - at Montpellier he is reportedly (The Times reporting it, no less) getting paid €3 million (£2.5 million) over his three year contract, making him the highest paid coach in any professional franchise worldwide. And the girls are very pretty in Montpellier.

NeilyBroon wrote:

bsando wrote:Would Toonie be willing to swap jobs with Cotter you think? I think the SRU, Cotter, Toonie and Montpelier should come to a deal. I also think it would be in the interests of the SRU to pay Montpelier if need be to ensure they can keep Cotter until 2019 world cup or further. Toonie could coach Montpellier instead and gain valuable experience there with a group of players who are not all predominantly Scottish.

Obviously this is a bit crazy but considering the amazing progress Cotter has made I think questions need to be asked. Nightmare scenario would be Cotter becoming head coach of Wales or another NH side and having success there too.

No disrespect to Townsend, I'm happy to see him promoted but I just think they should of kept Cotter up until or past the RWC 2019

I think we all share your concern to be honest.

After seeing Glasgow's mixed bag this season I'm not so convinced, I feel that Toonie may just be riding on a wave of luck (much in the style of Clive Woodward), owing to the support staff and previous coaching of Glasgow. I just hope the boys take the lessons learnt under Cotter forward and the tombola comes out with the right balance of squad.

I can't help feeling we may be in for another rough year after this, even with Toonie's experience with the boys at Glasgow.

But here's hoping Gregor can replicate the Weegie culture from seasons past at test level.

I hate to disagree with you Neily, but I think you are missing the point. There has been little or no Tombola action for Glasgow fans to wonder at this season and most of us firmly believe it's because His Toonieness is fixated on Europe. He has gone down the Ladyboys/Munster route of having, as much as possible, two squads. This is why, fitness permitting, Sam Johnson has started every European match at 12 but rarely featured in league matches. Dunbar has done most of his European work at 13, but mostly is 12 in the league. There are other patterns to spot but I can't be bothered.

Trust me, Toonie is still the good joo-joo magic man and he will bring something special to Scotland. It's just a shame for BVC who has really moved the team on from where he found it.

Welsh players are making it very easy for Gatland. Right now i'd only take Sam, AWJ Tipuric Faletau Webb and Liam at best.

Gwlad wrote:Welsh players are making it very easy for Gatland. Right now i'd only take Sam, AWJ Tipuric Faletau Webb and Liam at best.

Everyone of those, add Ken Owens and Dan Biggar. I'd also like to see Moriarty and Charteris

Gwlad wrote:Welsh players are making it very easy for Gatland. Right now i'd only take Sam, AWJ Tipuric Faletau Webb and Liam at best.

I don't think Toby can justify over Moriarty at the moment. Will need some big performances.

I'd say AW Jones, Moriarty, Warburton, Webb, Biggar, North, L Williams will tour.

Touch and go on Halfpenny, S. Williams, J. Davies, Faletau and Tipuric.

jimbopip wrote:

NeilyBroon wrote:

bsando wrote:Would Toonie be willing to swap jobs with Cotter you think? I think the SRU, Cotter, Toonie and Montpelier should come to a deal. I also think it would be in the interests of the SRU to pay Montpelier if need be to ensure they can keep Cotter until 2019 world cup or further. Toonie could coach Montpellier instead and gain valuable experience there with a group of players who are not all predominantly Scottish.

Obviously this is a bit crazy but considering the amazing progress Cotter has made I think questions need to be asked. Nightmare scenario would be Cotter becoming head coach of Wales or another NH side and having success there too.

No disrespect to Townsend, I'm happy to see him promoted but I just think they should of kept Cotter up until or past the RWC 2019

I think we all share your concern to be honest.

After seeing Glasgow's mixed bag this season I'm not so convinced, I feel that Toonie may just be riding on a wave of luck (much in the style of Clive Woodward), owing to the support staff and previous coaching of Glasgow. I just hope the boys take the lessons learnt under Cotter forward and the tombola comes out with the right balance of squad.

I can't help feeling we may be in for another rough year after this, even with Toonie's experience with the boys at Glasgow.

But here's hoping Gregor can replicate the Weegie culture from seasons past at test level.

I hate to disagree with you Neily, but I think you are missing the point. There has been little or no Tombola action for Glasgow fans to wonder at this season and most of us firmly believe it's because His Toonieness is fixated on Europe. He has gone down the Ladyboys/Munster route of having, as much as possible, two squads. This is why, fitness permitting, Sam Johnson has started every European match at 12 but rarely featured in league matches. Dunbar has done most of his European work at 13, but mostly is 12 in the league. There are other patterns to spot but I can't be bothered.

Trust me, Toonie is still the good joo-joo magic man and he will bring something special to Scotland. It's just a shame for BVC who has really moved the team on from where he found it.

Well here's hoping you're right! Cotter has done a fine fine job and it'd be a shame if it went to waste. We shall know soon enough either way, the grand wizard should be able to hit the ground running considering 3/4s of the squad are Weegies

fa0019 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Welsh players are making it very easy for Gatland. Right now i'd only take Sam, AWJ Tipuric Faletau Webb and Liam at best.

I don't think Toby can justify over Moriarty at the moment. Will need some big performances.

I'd say AW Jones, Moriarty, Warburton, Webb, Biggar, North, L Williams will tour.

Touch and go on Halfpenny, S. Williams, J. Davies, Faletau and Tipuric.

If so then its clear favouritism. Webb / Williams would be the only ones I have seen put their hands up for a place. Webb especially looks like the best 9 right now.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Welsh players are making it very easy for Gatland. Right now i'd only take Sam, AWJ Tipuric Faletau Webb and Liam at best.

Everyone of those, add Ken Owens and Dan Biggar. I'd also like to see Moriarty and Charteris

I don't think Owens will make it. I'd expect Hartley, George and Best to be the three hookers. I'd also take Fraser Brown ahead of Owens based on 6 Nations form.

Charteris had a good cameo against us, being one of the only Welsh players to turn up in the second half (Rhys Webb excluded), but lock is going to be one hell of a contest, and he'll need to be starting against Ireland and France to get a sniff in my view (which would be harsh on Ball, who was superb against England).

TJ wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Welsh players are making it very easy for Gatland. Right now i'd only take Sam, AWJ Tipuric Faletau Webb and Liam at best.

I don't think Toby can justify over Moriarty at the moment. Will need some big performances.

I'd say AW Jones, Moriarty, Warburton, Webb, Biggar, North, L Williams will tour.

Touch and go on Halfpenny, S. Williams, J. Davies, Faletau and Tipuric.

If so then its clear favouritism.  Webb / Williams would be the only ones I have seen put their hands up for a place.  Webb especially looks like the best 9 right now.

Very close battle between Webb and Murray for the 9 shirt. I'd start with Murray and have Webb on the bench.

3rd scrum half is wide open. I'm a big fan of Ben Youngs and he had a superb AI series, so he'd be my frontrunner.

Gwlad wrote:Welsh players are making it very easy for Gatland. Right now i'd only take Sam, AWJ Tipuric Faletau Webb and Liam at best.

The only Welsh players worth a place on the plane are Liam W,Rhys W and possibly Ken O and Tipuric.As for Sam W and AWJ the affair of the 'kick to touch' shows every sign of growing controversy.The video suggests that Warburton was making the touch decision on Biggar's prompting.This would support the rumour that Warburton is captain in all but name on Howley's say so.There should be no chance of wendyball Biggar being selected in front of Sexton,Jackson,Russell,Ford and Farrell-all of whom run faster and pass better.Just can't see Gatland picking 'favourites' when this Lions tour is his interview for the head NZ coach position.This supports an equally strong rumour that Gatland will not be returning to coach Wales win or lose in NZ.He'll want to avoid Henry's relationship with Welsh players not selected for NZ.

Webb was consistently dangerous against Scotland - the only welsh player who was.  Wiliams looked good with the few scraps of ball he got.  He might well have looked a lot better had he got any ball..  AWJ and Warburton huffed and puffed but were outplayed by their opposite numbers. tipuric was nowhere compared to Watson

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Welsh players are making it very easy for Gatland. Right now i'd only take Sam, AWJ Tipuric Faletau Webb and Liam at best.

Everyone of those, add Ken Owens and Dan Biggar. I'd also like to see Moriarty and Charteris

We at most will see 6 backrowers - you reckon 4 Welshman will go

What about Stander, Heaslip, SOB
What about Itoje, Vunipola, Robshaw, Haskell
A few handy Scotsman as well

Sorry but 4 Welsh backrowers is delusional

TJ wrote:Webb was consistently dangerous against Scotland - the only welsh player who was.  Wiliams looked good with the few scraps of ball he got.  He might well have looked a lot better had he got any ball..  AWJ and Warburton huffed and puffed but were outplayed by their opposite numbers.  tipuric was nowhere compared to Watson

That's wholly incorrect. I'm not sure why people keep laying into AWJ , they're a bit desperate for him not to go on the Lions tour that they keep resorting to things that didn't happen. I've also noticed that folks have been quiet about the time he smashed Gray Jnr backwards a few yards - it was sweet. FYI, Barclay was Warburton's opposite number, as both packed down at 6? Either way Warburton hasn't been outplayed in this entire tournament, he's been brilliant, as was Watson on Saturday. I'm inclined to agree with you about Tips. It seems he's been a little quiet, or just having one of those 'unseen work' moments that Danny Lydiate used to do a lot of...

Oh my god. This thread was chuntering along so nicely before it suddenly turned into more Lions willy waving.

Shame.

geoff999rugby wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Welsh players are making it very easy for Gatland. Right now i'd only take Sam, AWJ Tipuric Faletau Webb and Liam at best.

Everyone of those, add Ken Owens and Dan Biggar. I'd also like to see Moriarty and Charteris

We at most will see 6 backrowers - you reckon 4 Welshman will go

What about Stander, Heaslip, SOB
What about Itoje, Vunipola, Robshaw, Haskell
A few handy Scotsman as well

Sorry but 4 Welsh backrowers is delusional

you're the delusional one, check your facts…7 went in 2013 and 9 in 2009.

Robshaw and Haskell is laughable.

George Carlin wrote:Oh my god. This thread was chuntering along so nicely before it suddenly turned into more Lions willy waving.

Shame.

That's the blight of the obsession with the Lions. I don't wish it ill will but, boy, personally speaking it's a bloody circus every four years.

The question is Did Wales become complacent against Scotland?

Scotland had not beaten Wales in x amount of years ( not sure how long.) Could this be why Biggar went against AWJ regards the kick?

For Wales not to score any points in the second half.....is just not know before. Well not too me any way, they normaly score a penalty at least.

Scotland are/were good enough to win. Anyone that has been looking at their games in recent times knows this, anyone who has watched Glasgow develop in recent years knows this, and anyone that has Vern Cotter as coach probably expects an increase in competitiveness.

Wales didn't have to be complacent - all they had to do was play to the best of their ability in this season and Scotland (for now) are just playing better.

Just a minor point about 'penalty-gate' - AWJ had told the ref he was kicking for goal, the TJs had been instructed to go behind the posts and the tee was on the pitch yet the ref let them kick to the corner still when Biggar publicly over ruled his captain. If Wales hadn't messed up the lineout I think we would have been justifiably miffed about that!

Gwlad wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Welsh players are making it very easy for Gatland. Right now i'd only take Sam, AWJ Tipuric Faletau Webb and Liam at best.

Everyone of those, add Ken Owens and Dan Biggar. I'd also like to see Moriarty and Charteris

We at most will see 6 backrowers - you reckon 4 Welshman will go

What about Stander, Heaslip, SOB
What about Itoje, Vunipola, Robshaw, Haskell
A few handy Scotsman as well

Sorry but 4 Welsh backrowers is delusional

you're the delusional one, check your facts…7 went in 2013 and 9 in 2009.

Robshaw and Haskell is laughable.

It will be 6 + 1 who can play elsewhere.

Now that could be Itoje but even so you still think Wales will provide 4 of the 6 the dedicated backrowers.
Robshaw is a very smart player. Haskell may be a bit of a dick but he can do a job.
Laughable is Moriarity and indeed Owens
No way one both Warburton and Tiperic will both go - unless Gatland has his Welsh tinted glasses on

2009 was an overblown squad and the mistake will not be repeated.

Moriarity is laughable, as is Owens.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Just a minor point about 'penalty-gate' - AWJ had told the ref he was kicking for goal, the TJs had been instructed to go behind the posts and the tee was on the pitch yet the ref let them kick to the corner still when Biggar publicly over ruled his captain.  If Wales hadn't messed up the lineout I think we would have been justifiably miffed about that!

Yes. I noticed that. Poor reffing as well as once the decision is made you can not change it


Thankfully no points came from it

RDW_Scotland wrote:Just a minor point about 'penalty-gate' - AWJ had told the ref he was kicking for goal, the TJs had been instructed to go behind the posts and the tee was on the pitch yet the ref let them kick to the corner still when Biggar publicly over ruled his captain.  If Wales hadn't messed up the lineout I think we would have been justifiably miffed about that!

Penalty-gate will be the unavoidable topic at a Welsh press conference tomorrow.It'll be interesting to see who the WRU field as the spokesperson and fascinating to see how probing the media will be because even uncritical parts of the Welsh media are incredulous at what went on.Expect questions on Biggar's general behaviour and how he and Warburton overruled both AWJ and Lacey.Apparently 1/2p did not say he didn't fancy the kick! Getting better by the day.Who needs willy waving?

mikey_dragon wrote:

TJ wrote:Webb was consistently dangerous against Scotland - the only welsh player who was.  Wiliams looked good with the few scraps of ball he got.  He might well have looked a lot better had he got any ball..  AWJ and Warburton huffed and puffed but were outplayed by their opposite numbers.  tipuric was nowhere compared to Watson

That's wholly incorrect. I'm not sure why people keep laying into AWJ , they're a bit desperate for him not to go on the Lions tour that they keep resorting to things that didn't happen. I've also noticed that folks have been quiet about the time he smashed Gray Jnr backwards a few yards - it was sweet. FYI, Barclay was Warburton's opposite number, as both packed down at 6? Either way Warburton hasn't been outplayed in this entire tournament, he's been brilliant, as was Watson on Saturday. I'm inclined to agree with you about Tips. It seems he's been a little quiet, or just having one of those 'unseen work' moments that Danny Lydiate used to do a lot of...

It was a good battle and Gray and AWJ rather nullified each other but I would have Gray coming out on top for his carries. Watson was the best back row on the park by miles.

R!skysports wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Just a minor point about 'penalty-gate' - AWJ had told the ref he was kicking for goal, the TJs had been instructed to go behind the posts and the tee was on the pitch yet the ref let them kick to the corner still when Biggar publicly over ruled his captain.  If Wales hadn't messed up the lineout I think we would have been justifiably miffed about that!

Yes. I noticed that. Poor reffing as well as once the decision is made you can not change it


Thankfully no points came from it

Indeed - those 3 points might have made a difference!

geoff999rugby wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Welsh players are making it very easy for Gatland. Right now i'd only take Sam, AWJ Tipuric Faletau Webb and Liam at best.

Everyone of those, add Ken Owens and Dan Biggar. I'd also like to see Moriarty and Charteris

We at most will see 6 backrowers - you reckon 4 Welshman will go

What about Stander, Heaslip, SOB
What about Itoje, Vunipola, Robshaw, Haskell
A few handy Scotsman as well

Sorry but 4 Welsh backrowers is delusional

you're the delusional one, check your facts…7 went in 2013 and 9 in 2009.

Robshaw and Haskell is laughable.

It will be 6 + 1 who can play elsewhere.

Now that could be Itoje but even so you still think Wales will provide 4 of the 6 the dedicated backrowers.
Robshaw is a very smart player. Haskell may be a bit of a dick but he can do a job.
Laughable is Moriarity and indeed Owens
No way one both Warburton and Tiperic will both go  - unless Gatland has his Welsh tinted glasses on

2009 was an overblown squad and the mistake will not be repeated.

Moriarity is laughable, as is Owens.

at what point did i say Ownes or Morirarty? Never. And 'smart' is not a word i associate with Wobshaw. Nor is very good.

I think Geoff is having a go at me, for the record I'd be taking as a lions backrow the following players :

Stander, Robshaw, Warburton, Watson, Barclay, Heaslip, O'brien, Faletau.

If Billy V recovers he'll be in the mix, but he'll have to come back strongly, there are so many good backrowers and currently picking him would be based purely on reputation and not looking at who's on form an playing high intensity test match rugby.

Billy yes, Robshaw absolutely not. Willing to concede you dont normally need Tips and Warbs but the latter playing well at 6 and IMO could be skipper.

Watson isn't going on a Lions tour after what he has achieved in this 6 Nations.

A good cadre would be

Heaslip
SOB
Stander
Warburton
Tipuris
Faletau
Barclay

Billy V if fit

Gwlad wrote:Billy yes, Robshaw absolutely not. Willing to concede you dont normally need Tips and Warbs but the latter playing well at 6 and IMO could be skipper.

Watson isn't going on a Lions tour after what he has achieved in this 6 Nations.

A good cadre would be

Heaslip
SOB
Stander
Warburton
Tipuris
Faletau
Barclay

Billy V if fit

Totally baffled by that Watson has been the best 7 of the lions nations by far in this campaign, but playing well isn't enough whilst Billy V being injured is enough

Er Watson is a 7 and billy an 8?

Look, Watson is a decent player. not even starting for Scots regularly yet though. He is unproven and this is a lions tour. Tipuric Warburton and SOB are all proven Test 7s and winning Lions.

Billy V is a freak who we all know will be fighting for the 8 shirt with Faletau.

Warburton and Stander will compete for 6 but its Standers shirt to lose, Itoje will go and provides decent cover.

I see the hierarchy this way

6: Stander, Warburton, Itoje.
7: Warburton, SOB, Tipuric.
8: Billy V, Faletau, Heaslip.

Got to say that I agree that Watson is a long shot - he's got proven test winners ahead of him and is very much a specialist 7 which is a bit of a luxury on a lions tour.

If Watson stays on the radar he could well figure for injury cover but i just can't see that he is first pick in a group with so many quality players.

Who is this Watson guy?

Cyril wrote:Who is this Watson guy?

Luckily for you, you'll find out next week. 

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Cyril wrote:Who is this Watson guy?

Luckily for you, you'll find out next week. 

Luckily we're not Ireland and have a chance to tackle this World Class player 

Good luck. He isn't an easy man to tackle.

Wales have so far lost to two of the other Lions nations and failed to pick up a bonus point against Italy. Added to which, Gatland has said publicly that unlike in 2013, Wales aren't his template for the Lions this time around.

And yet there are posters on here suggesting without apparent irony that they'll provide more than a quarter of the squad. It's a rather touching display of faith but seems somewhat unrealistic to me.