Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[pedro]

First topic message reminder :

Corbyn I guess.

[Roller_Coaster]

In other news.

Fans of corporate nothingspeak / moopoo / utter dribble should have a shufty at the below link on Twitter. (if the link doesn't work it came from @andrewbensonf1 twitter a/c - or Mac being an F1 fan and twittist might be able to get it on here better than me!)

F1 gobbledegook

Eff me. This Sean Bratches guy gets paid for that? Really is like a sketch.

[navyblueshorts]

It's hardly one of the countries you associate with it, their level of involvement is nothing like that of America or GB.

That's the point though - you don't know anything about it and performing the same ignorant knee jerk reaction as the daily flail will no doubt come to.
So what's the end game? Kill all muslims? Or is it to keep a nice steady stream of taxpayers cash into the 'defence' budget with no questions asked? And if they are asked you are accused of being anti western or hating your country.

Sorry. I'm with S_R here. What we (the 'West') do in the middle east is often, and has often been, pretty scummy. These morons, however, are just morons looking for an excuse. We could have nothing to do with them and they'd still butcher and exterminate willy nilly. We can't win. They're only interested in their own narrow nihilistic and medieval interpretation of a book. They don't even distinguish between different views of Islam - if you're not with us and our views, you die; often pretty horribly. Screw them.

In a way, I think we should let the area implode. Alternatively, annihilate the area and simply take the oil we need. Bored stupid of these idiots now.

[MontysMerkin]

Nice one.

[kwinigolfer]

It's hardly one of the countries you associate with it, their level of involvement is nothing like that of America or GB.

That's the point though - you don't know anything about it and performing the same ignorant knee jerk reaction as the daily flail will no doubt come to.
So what's the end game? Kill all muslims? Or is it to keep a nice steady stream of taxpayers cash into the 'defence' budget with no questions asked? And if they are asked you are accused of being anti western or hating your country.

Sorry. I'm with S_R here. What we (the 'West') do in the middle east is often, and has often been, pretty scummy. These morons, however, are just morons looking for an excuse. We could have nothing to do with them and they'd still butcher and exterminate willy nilly. We can't win. They're only interested in their own narrow nihilistic and medieval interpretation of a book. They don't even distinguish between different views of Islam - if you're not with us and our views, you die; often pretty horribly. Screw them.

In a way, I think we should let the area implode. Alternatively, annihilate the area and simply take the oil we need. Bored stupid of these idiots now.

Trouble is, for every Islamist scumbagthug, there's scumbagthugs (on both sides) terrorising GB&I forty+ years ago, usually financed by Americans whilst their government turns a blind eye. Tactics now not much different from the 70's etc when you think about it.

Who knows what the answer is, but today's apparently normal thug/citizen could be tomorrow's killer wrapped up in some cause or another.

[navyblueshorts]

Nice one.

Glad you thought so.

[Be_the_ball]

The difference being, the "troubles" was solvable. In reality there's feck all difference between people from Ireland/NI and people from E/S/W.

The "troubles" was a bonkers situation where people were in conflict during the day and would go home and support the same teams as each other while watching Match of the Day at night.

It took a lot of work by largely the people of NI to be able to realise there could be a common future. And ultimately its the ordinary people of NI that we in E/I/S/W need to be supporting. Those in the extremes will have no where to go if they have no one to peddle Hate to.

The Middle east is a completely different story, different values, different expectations, different aspirations, different political norms, different legal systems. How do you solve that?

[Diggers]

Maybe if you are the West by not trying to solve it. Solve is probably the wrong word anyway, far too much self interest in play, from far too many parties, to believe a solution is being sought.
Re people being sick of it, I wonder how the people living there who aren't fundamentalists feel - in other words the vast majority of them. I wonder if the parents of the 30 people killed (by US led militia)at the school in Raqqa are bored by the situation.
I don't pretend to have a clue about what life has been like in the Middle East in the past decades, but I'm pretty sure in many areas is it has been utterly horrific.

[super_realist]

here is nothing wrong with Islam , there is issues with people being idiots. I work with and have Muslim friends, not one has attempted to kill me or call me an infidel, mainly because they are not idiots.

The guy that did this attack was known to police and been in and out of jail before he converted. He is a messed up bloke using Islam to continue with his general behaviour.

Nothing wrong with Islam? Tell that to someone who wants to leave Islam, or who is Muslim and gay, or who is a Muslim woman in Iran or Saudi Arabia. Try telling them there's nothing wrong with Islam. Nothing wrong with a religion which dictates how you can dress and what you can eat? How about the indoctrination of people from childhood to believe utter crap about the doctrines of Islam? No harm in that? (this goes for all religions, not just Islam)

There is nothing inherently good about Islam either, nor any other religion. So let's stop telling ourselves, "these aren't real Muslims" because NO ONE can say who is a real muslim or not, if they believe in Allah they are by definition Muslims. Like it or not, they might not be mainstream, just as the Westboro Baptist church are not mainstream, but they are religious.

Is there a solution? Maybe, I don't know, but giving what are effectively fairy tale book clubs recognition in society, education and politics is obviously not a good thing. Until we start treating religion like the insanely bad idea and credulous, unjustifiable nonsense it is and stop giving it special privilege and consideration in society then we'll never solve anything. (for example, who ever asked a religious leaders opinion on anything like politics and environment? No one, but we get it regardless)

I'm fine if people want to believe such obvious nonsense, but it should 100% be private, no influence in politics, no place in education other than as a comparative religion course, no tax breaks, no religious leaders in the House of Lords etc, treat it like a Bridge Club, Book Club, Thursday Night Poker Club etc. It deserves no special treatment.

[beninho]

I honestly think people that have such over the top views against religion just as insufferable as people that are religious. People tgat are so stupid to not accept that good things happen due to religion are ignorant. Food kitchens run by churches, homeless people helped by their places of worship and generally people that give their time to help people less well off then them.

Im not religious, im also not against religion. I will also say that my muslim friends are not dictated what to wear by islam. People can make their own choices, in most parts of the world. Take away saudi Arabia because its Frak mental and the route cause of alot of the problems that are going on. But a muslim guy kills 4 people and trump just kills 200 in an air raid and people still wonder why some muslims feel persecuted.

[navyblueshorts]

...But a muslim guy kills 4 people and trump just kills 200 in an air raid and people still wonder why some muslims feel persecuted.

Yeah, right. This is Mosul, where a bunch of nihilist f***heads have been in situ for, what? Two years? Such lovely people. Wouldn't hurt a fly . What do YOU propose? That the military that's trying to oust them (for everyone's good) shouldn't be supported by air strikes? It's WAR ffs. People die.

[super_realist]

I honestly think people that have such over the top views against religion just as insufferable as people that are religious. People tgat are so stupid to not accept that good things happen due to religion are ignorant. Food kitchens run by churches, homeless people helped by their places of worship and generally people that give their time to help people less well off then them.

Im not religious, im also not against religion. I will also say that my muslim friends are not dictated what to wear by islam. People can make their own choices, in most parts of the world. Take away saudi Arabia because its Frak mental and the route cause of alot of the problems that are going on. But a muslim guy kills 4 people and trump just kills 200 in an air raid and people still wonder why some muslims feel persecuted.

Ben, you seem to be completely unaware that the "holy" books of these religions specifically condone and give instructions for such behaviour. It gives them justification to do so. The bible is just as bad, if not worse.

It's incredibly naïve to think that the people who do atrocities are just "hiding behind religion" or aren't "true muslims" and are just bad people. If they would "do it anyway" why do they use religion as justification?

Why would they need to hide behind anything? If you wanted to do something abhorrent , why not just do it? It's not like they get let off for doing it in the name of religion, and it's not like religion needs a bad name as it's already got one. They have nothing to gain by doing it in the name of religion, unless they genuinely believe they are doing it in the name of their disgusting, imbecilic beliefs.

You want to know why people are against religion? Do you really have to ask?  Apart from it being 2017 and we ought to have grown out of fairy tales, there is nothing good done by religion, that can't be done without it, and with religion it retards the society of countries to an unacceptable level.

Food kitchens? Is that the best you can do? I suppose it's great the homeless get fed so long as the religious can kill you for being gay or daring to leave the religion?

There are plenty of non religious charities to support that do great work, but don't pretend they are doing it because of their religion like Christian Aid, they don't hide behind a message like religious groups and the need to be seen to be being altruistic and charitable. It's just done because it's good. If religion actually wanted to do some good, they're sitting on more wealth than god, (if he was real) anyway. So instead of relying on donations, those creeps in the Vatican or the Church of England could actually do something with the billions they have not paid taxes on and have scrounged from the public dole. They are appalling, dishonest and hypocritical organisations and it takes more than a bloody soup kitchen to give them any bloody credit.

Tell me ONE good thing done by religion that could not be done without it? There is literally nothing. So why bother with it?

[SmithersJones]

People who believe live longer than those who don't. Really annoys me, that stat.

[super_realist]

That's a load of crap actually if you are looking at modern countries and also depends if you are comparing countries, or people from one country and whether that country is religious.

We don't live in a religious country, or even continentso the stat doesn't affect us.

If you are only looking at third world countries like Africa and America, then there might be a correlation, but in modern forward looking secular countries, it isn't true, in fact it's the opposite.

Societal health improves the less religious a country is.

[beninho]

I'm off the religion comments. I have no issues with it, I have family that go to Church, I got married in a Church. I'm a pretty reasonable person, everything in life is not black and white. I have no issues with the vast majority of people that are religious, I though am obviously against people that use religion as a way to hurt people or carry out atrocities.

I honestly feel sorry for anyone that has such blinkered views on either side of the debate, that they hold so much pain and hate in them. But unfortunately not everyone in the world is normal and rational.

[super_realist]

Nor do I Ben, believe in Jewish Sky Zombies, talking snakes, people living to 900, thinking it's moral to pump your mum and the other disgusting books and teachings of religion all day long if you like, but when you use it to do harm to people and when the teachings are taken out of their private fairy tale clubs as is done, try to implicate it into politics, legislation, lawmaking, education and taxation as religions of most persuasions do, then it has to be stamped on.

It's literally like trying to get leprechauns, bigfoot, loch ness monsters into society, and that would be absurd, so this man made revolting construction should be treated the same.

[MontysMerkin]

Nice one.

Glad you thought so.

Not really. Just amazed.

[navyblueshorts]

Nice one.

Glad you thought so.

Not really. Just amazed.

Another positive contribution I see...

[Diggers]

Surely when it comes to religion you either have faith or don't, I kind of count agnostics as donts personally. I don't, so find it very hard to understand why some people do, especially when many people I know who do, are very rational in many ways.
So I've come to the conclusion that there isn't any point me talking about what it is to be religious as I can't put myself in that position, I can't imagine what "having faith" feels like.

[MontysMerkin]

Nice one.

Glad you thought so.

Not really. Just amazed.

Another positive contribution I see...

TBH you're posts on the subject are barmy and not worthy of discussion. I would expect a more logical and measured response from a toddler so we'll just leave it there.

[super_realist]

Surely when it comes to religion you either have faith or don't, I kind of count agnostics as donts personally. I don't, so find it very hard to understand why some people do, especially when many people I know who do, are very rational in many ways.
So I've come to the conclusion that there isn't any point me talking about what it is to be religious as I can't put myself in that position, I can't imagine what "having faith" feels like.

It's not a case of you have or you haven't got faith Diggers, it's how could you have faith? You do know what faith is like Diggers, if you cast your mind back to other childish beliefs like tooth fairies or Santa Claus, that's the same thing.

Faith is worthless and it tells you nothing, as there isn't anything you can't believe on faith. You could have faith that Shane Lowry is suddenly going to run the 100m in 10 seconds, doesn't make it true or even remotely likely, and faith based beliefs aren't something we should make allowances for or respect in the slightest. It's simply an excuse for people to believe when they haven't got a good reason, if they had a good reason, they wouldn't need faith. So people who express faith as something which ought to be respected are simply deluding themselves. It's more something which ought to be ridiculed.

[beninho]

Surely when it comes to religion you either have faith or don't, I kind of count agnostics as donts personally. I don't, so find it very hard to understand why some people do, especially when many people I know who do, are very rational in many ways.
So I've come to the conclusion that there isn't any point me talking about what it is to be religious as I can't put myself in that position, I can't imagine what "having faith" feels like.

It's not a case of you have or you haven't got faith Diggers, it's how could you have faith? You do know what faith is like Diggers, if you cast your mind back to other childish beliefs like tooth fairies or Santa Claus, that's the same thing.

Faith is worthless and it tells you nothing, as there isn't anything you can't believe on faith. You could have faith that Shane Lowry is suddenly going to run the 100m in 10 seconds, doesn't make it true or even remotely likely, and faith based beliefs aren't something we should make allowances for or respect in the slightest. It's simply an excuse for people to believe when they haven't got a good reason, if they had a good reason, they wouldn't need faith. So people who express faith as something which ought to be respected are simply deluding themselves. It's more something which ought to be ridiculed.

The thing is, your views are so extreme and bonkers, that you deserve to be more ridiculed than someone that goes to church on a Sunday. Because you act like a massive man sausage on the subject.

[pedro]

Where's the 'bonkers' ben? Isn't it just straight to the point w/o BS?

[super_realist]

My views aren't bonkers at all. They aren't even extreme. My stance on religion is exactly the same as a stance on anyone believing absurdly stupid things on no evidence whatsoever.

If you want to believe there's a jewish sky zombie, if you want to believe slavery is moral because the bible says it is. Fine, just leave it for your private fairy tale club, and stop expecting respect for those beliefs or accommodation from society.
So people should stop saying bombers and terrorists are not religious and that "there is nothing wrong with Islam" because that's a plainly stupid thing to say and far more bonkers.

[beninho]

Its clear that he has some sort of ingrained hatred of religion, the slightest mention sets him off on a rant when he just repeats phrases again and again. There seems to be a mental health issue.

The ridicule of people that think differently to yourself is not really a normal way to behave.

[MontysMerkin]

I think he's repressing something...

[beninho]

I think he's repressing something...

it was always the good looking boys...

[super_realist]

Its clear that he has some sort of ingrained hatred of religion, the slightest mention sets him off on a rant when he just repeats phrases again and again. There seems to be a mental health issue.

The ridicule of people that think differently to yourself is not really a normal way to behave.

Why wouldn't you have a hatred of religion? It's caused massive amounts of trouble and continues to do so. There is NOTHING good done by religion which can't be done without it.

As I keep saying but you seem to ignore, I'm FINE if you want to believe anything you want, but the moment that religious bodies ask for special treatment or want their voice heard in politics, education or expect tax breaks for their fairy tale club then sorry, it has no place there, or anywhere other than their sinister private  make believe clubs.

In the context of what we were talking about (London Terror attack) religion was an issue, hence why we're talking about it, though you seem to want to excuse it.

Imagine if your local Bridge club tried to get involved in things like Abortion, Gay Marriage, Sex Education etc? You'd tell them to get stuffed, and rightly so. Or how if the Bridge Club ran down 2 dozen people in London and said they did so because the constitution of the Bridge Club told them they could?

We'd have no tolerance for that, so we should have no tolerance for bad ideas like religion in modern society, other than in private.

Thanks for your diagnosis, I must ask for your credentials next time.

[navyblueshorts]

Nice one.

Glad you thought so.

Not really. Just amazed.

Another positive contribution I see...

TBH you're posts on the subject are barmy and not worthy of discussion. I would expect a more logical and measured response from a toddler so we'll just leave it there.

I rest my case. I mean, you could have made some reasoned, justified points re. my original post, but no, just the usual. I'm not even sure, looking back at my post, which part your mature original comment was in response to. All of it? The last sentence? No idea, but clearly you couldn't make any sort of cogent argument. Moving on...

[navyblueshorts]

I think he's repressing something...

More useful commentary I see. Agree with S_R, or not, at least he (usually) writes a detailed post on why he's adopting the position he does. Something you seem to find strangely difficult.

[MontysMerkin]

Alternatively, annihilate the area and simply take the oil we need. Bored stupid of these idiots now.

Well it was that really. Not sure how to respond to it. It was either a bit of wummery (hence the nice one) or if you really think that, moronic.

[super_realist]

Alternatively, annihilate the area and simply take the oil we need. Bored stupid of these idiots now.

Well it was that really. Not sure how to respond to it. It was either a bit of wummery (hence the nice one) or if you really think that, moronic.

Can you disagree with that part Monty?

[MontysMerkin]

I'm bored of the whole thing to be honest. But to deny our part in it's cause is naive. We spend billions (if not trillions) of tax payers money bombing the living bejesus out of some Frak I don't give a flying Poopie about. And as far as I can see for not much reason. And the nationalism behind it all is sickening.

[super_realist]

We don't spend trillions Monty, don't be silly. We don't have trillions, other than 1.6 trillion of debt. Afghanistan and Iraq have cost a combined 30 billion, or on other words, or roughly £400 quid per person. More than I'd like to have spent.

I'm not supporting any action there, or any reason we are there, but to consistently excuse those who are doing the atrocities over here, or who are hiding behind the UK or other countries "being in their land" as justification for their acts is horrendous. They just use it as an excuse as many of the perpetrators are not even from any country directly affected by any particular action.

If that was truly their reason, why are they attacking bit part countries like Denmark, Indonesia, Spain and Belgium instead of taking their "battle" to the US?

[MontysMerkin]

We don't spend trillions Monty, don't be silly. We don't have trillions, other than 1.6 trillion of debt. Afghanistan and Iraq have cost a combined 30 billion, or on other words, or roughly £400 quid per person. More than I'd like to have spent.

I'm not supporting any action there, or any reason we are there, but to consistently excuse those who are doing the atrocities over here, or who are hiding behind the UK or other countries "being in their land" as justification for their acts is horrendous. They just use it as an excuse as many of the perpetrators are not even from any country directly affected by any particular action.

If that was truly their reason, why are they attacking bit part countries like Denmark, Indonesia, Spain and Belgium instead of taking their "battle" to the US?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28153569 just on aircraft carriers.

Why is it horrendous? Try turning the tables and see how you think you would react.

9500 danish troops in Afghanistan
Indonesia are a mainly muslim country battling internal extremism.
Spain were deploying troops in Afghanistan for 14 years (main withdrawal in 2015)
Belgium airforce is engaged in Fallujah.

[super_realist]

Were the Danish attackers from Afghanistan? No. Would Denmark have been attacked were it not for Cartoons? No.

So Danish involvement in Afghanistan is not a reason because perpetrators of Danish terrorism weren't Afghans, nor was it related to Danish involvement in Afghanistan.

It was due to a crazed belief system not having a sense of humour or tolerance and thinking they're hysterically stupid beliefs command or deserve respect and are immune from criticism. Sorry, but f**k them.

Aircraft carriers aren't a direct procurement for Middle East action, so you can take that money off. Also Britain only spends 1.9% of it's GDP on Defence, down 100% on 1988 figures. Not exactly worth moaning about.

[McLaren]

In a way, I think we should let the area implode. Alternatively, annihilate the area and simply take the oil we need. Bored stupid of these idiots now.

Navy the rest of the post wasn't great, but I assume this is the bit that monty was referring to.

[MontysMerkin]

Were the Danish attackers from Afghanistan? No. Would Denmark have been attacked were it not for Cartoons? No.

So Danish involvement in Afghanistan is not a reason because perpetrators of Danish terrorism weren't Afghans, nor was it related to Danish involvement in Afghanistan.

It was due to a crazed belief system not having a sense of humour or tolerance and thinking they're hysterically stupid beliefs command or deserve respect and are immune from criticism. Sorry, but f**k them.

Aircraft carriers aren't a direct procurement for Middle East action, so you can take that money off. Also Britain only spends 1.9% of it's GDP on Defence, down 100% on 1988 figures. Not exactly worth moaning about.

Would Denmark have been attacked were it not for Cartoons? No idea, but glad you can think like a jihadist.

And this in no way condones any actions on behalf of terrorists (before someone has a dig about being an apologist).

As for aircraft carriers, if there was long standing peace there would be no reason to buy em (ignoring the fact they don't even bloody work), so it makes sense good business sense to keep things volatile. £20.9 billion by 2010 (not including interest) and that's a conservative estimate.

[super_realist]

Well considering the Danish gunman was a DANISH Muslim and his first attack was outside an ART GALLERY in which one the cartoonists (who had received MULTIPLE DEATH THREATS) was due to attend I hardly need to think like a Terrorist to see the motivation behind it do I? Not my fault you don't recall the news or can't be bothered to look it up. So it's clear that not all terrorist attacks are connected to Middle East action.


Living in "peacetime" doesn't mean you disband the military or stop renewing ancient military plant.

Again, British Military spending is just 1.9% per year. Bandying about figures like 20.9billion sounds a lot, but in terms of GDP, not very much.

[McLaren]

Super

What point are you trying to make.

So far I have managed to get the following from your long winding posts over the last few days.

Religious beliefs lack evidence.
You are an idiot to hold and continue to those beliefs.
Muslims terrorists attack because of those beliefs (and predominantly so).

Have I missed anything?

It would just be helpful if you could be a little more concise because at the moment I can't quite determine the premises of your argument or what argument you are even trying to make.

Thanks.

[super_realist]

Mac, we were discussing the London attacks and Beninho said there was "nothing wrong with Islam" which is clearly wrong for any religion.

Yes, you are credulous, gullible and naïve to hold any beliefs which are not based on evidence/good reason, by definition. Therefore, such beliefs command no place in anything like politics, education, lawmaking, legislation, taxation, environment etc etc etc.  Why do such people think their beliefs should shape any sort of policy, when it is indistinguishable from a fairy tale? It's laughable.

We shouldn't excuse these people, and we shouldn't try to pretend they "aren't true muslims", or that they are simply hiding behind it.

Nobody else is having trouble Mac understanding this . Is something wrong with your comprehension?

[Diggers]

Surely when it comes to religion you either have faith or don't, I kind of count agnostics as donts personally. I don't, so find it very hard to understand why some people do, especially when many people I know who do, are very rational in many ways.
So I've come to the conclusion that there isn't any point me talking about what it is to be religious as I can't put myself in that position, I can't imagine what "having faith" feels like.

It's not a case of you have or you haven't got faith Diggers, it's how could you have faith? You do know what faith is like Diggers, if you cast your mind back to other childish beliefs like tooth fairies or Santa Claus, that's the same thing.

Faith is worthless and it tells you nothing, as there isn't anything you can't believe on faith. You could have faith that Shane Lowry is suddenly going to run the 100m in 10 seconds, doesn't make it true or even remotely likely, and faith based beliefs aren't something we should make allowances for or respect in the slightest. It's simply an excuse for people to believe when they haven't got a good reason, if they had a good reason, they wouldn't need faith. So people who express faith as something which ought to be respected are simply deluding themselves. It's more something which ought to be ridiculed.

I don't really agree, when I was a child I was told to believe in certain things, I quickly stopped when I figured things out, it wasn't anything to do with faith. It doesn't explain why adults, capable of very clear rational thought in other areas, choose to believe. I've no doubt in many countries it does come with the culture, but not in the U.K. so much.
More than anything else it's just quite intriguing, why some people believe, have true faith. Maybe its some form of subtle mental illness, I've no idea.

[raycastleunited]

I don't really agree, when I was a child I was told to believe in certain things, I quickly stopped when I figured things out

Oh but Digs you should believe in certain things. If something is certain to happen then it usually happens. If you start relying on uncertain things you will struggle.

As for me, I believe in being pedantic.

[Hibbz]

Where your argument falls down for me S_R is that you won't give any credit for the good things people do in the name of religion because they could just as easily be done not in the name of religion but you're quite happy to castigate religion because people do bad things due to it when you could equally argue they'd be done (and are) without the religious justification.

I'd put myself down as atheist but am genuinely jealous of those with true faith that there is a greater power looking out for them even if that belief is irrational to me.

[Diggers]

A good belief to have Ray, I'm all for a bit of pedantry!

[super_realist]

Where your argument falls down for me S_R is that you won't give any credit for the good things people do in the name of religion because they could just as easily be done not in the name of religion but you're quite happy to castigate religion because people do bad things due to it when you could equally argue they'd be done (and are) without the religious justification.

I'd put myself down as atheist but am genuinely jealous of those with true faith that there is a greater power looking out for them even if that belief is irrational to me.

Hibbz, I'm talking about the things which religion specifically allows them to do, as set out in their holy books, i.e. death for apostacy, genocide, subjugation of women, castigation of homosexuals.

Of course people do horrible things for non religious reasons, but religious books now and throughout history give them actual permission and justification for their acts and it's very often cited for a reason for the things done, and Christianity is every bit as bad as Islam in that regard.

You can't kill someone for apostacy if there is no holy book or religious belief to begin with. That is something which can ONLY be done in the name of religion.

The harm done by religion far exceeds any good it has done.

There is no such thing as "true faith" It's credulity, and in any case, why would you want it? It tells you nothing and is nothing but "wishful thinking". You can believe anything on faith, but why would you want to believe something you don't know to be true? It's asinine. Surely you want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible?

I'm certainly not jealous of people who believe things without evidence, a.k.a. gullibility. I feel pity they haven't the logic to reason themselves out of it.

It's like living your life as if you one day you will win the lottery. If you live your life waiting for some sort of cosmic afterlife, how are you going to make the best of the one life you know you have? It's counter productive.

Diggers, most religious people haven't reasoned themselves into their beliefs either, most have been indoctrinated, just like we were as kids with Santa Claus or Toothfairies, but for some reason, it's more pervasive and people don't reason themselves out of what is indistinguishable from a fairy tale. That's tragic, not something to be respected.

[beninho]

I got married in a church, my children will likely be christened in a church, I was christened in a church, My parents and sister attend church regularly. I have friends who attend church and are religious.

I do not pity my family or friends for doing something they would like to do. Because thats not how you treat friends or family is it? No one that I know to be religious of any faith has been indoctrinated.

I accept that the vast majority of religious people are similar. They have some sort of faith or belief, this can be for any reason, even comfort in dark times. My sister has gone through breast cancer treatment recently at a young age. I have never spoken to her regarding her religious views, but would not be surprised if she felt that it helped her. Feeling something helps you, even if it didnt, can be of massive assistance.

Yep, there are issues with people who take the religious books literally. But luckily that's a tiny proportion of religious people in the world. Most people are fully aware of what is right and what is wrong, no matter what it says in a book.

[navyblueshorts]

In a way, I think we should let the area implode. Alternatively, annihilate the area and simply take the oil we need. Bored stupid of these idiots now.

Navy the rest of the post wasn't great, but I assume this is the bit that monty was referring to.  

Thank-you for your critique, but I stand by it. Monty's already clarified, so you're a bit slow off the mark I'm afraid. Your considered commentary on the situation would be...?

[super_realist]

I got married in a church, my children will likely be christened in a church, I was christened in a church, My parents and sister attend church regularly. I have friends who attend church and are religious.

I do not pity my family or friends for doing something they would like to do. Because thats not how you treat friends or family is it? No one that I know to be religious of any faith has been indoctrinated.

I accept that the vast majority of religious people are similar. They have some sort of faith or belief, this can be for any reason, even comfort in dark times. My sister has gone through breast cancer treatment recently at a young age. I have never spoken to her regarding her religious views, but would not be surprised if she felt that it helped her. Feeling something helps you, even if it didnt, can be of massive assistance.

Yep, there are issues with people who take the religious books literally. But luckily that's a tiny proportion of religious people in the world. Most people are fully aware of what is right and what is wrong, no matter what it says in a book.

Ben, you seem to be missing the point. I don't pity them in general, but I pity them on the ONE point that they believe in something for no reason whatsoever. Credulity is not something you should respect. Bad ideas do not command kudos.

If someone thought it was their destiny that they would marry Angelina Jolie and that it made them happy to think that, you wouldn't give them respect for that. You'd think they were deluded and a day dreamer. How is believing in god who allegedly sacrificed himself to himself (for a bank holiday weekend) to atone for rules he created any less silly? In fact it's even worse, because at lest Jolie exists, and is single.

So all the people you know who are religious have become so since they were adults? Sorry, I don't believe you.

Actually I don't think there's a tiny proportion of people who take the holy books literally. There is MASSIVE homophobia among the religious, especially Christian and Islam and a very great level of subjugation of women because of what these books tell them. Even now women can't be Priests. The bible states many horrible things and  that these are things it doesn't like and this is very often reflected in the views of the religious.

Like I continue to say though, believe what you want, but don't expect respect for it , and don't respect special treatment when your views are precisely the same as a fairy tale. It's just a club like a book club, bridge club or wine club.
That's my objection to religion, that and the sheer hypocrisy and selfishness of the belief.

If people know what is right and wrong, then why need a book? Why ignore the condoning of slavery, incest, infanticide etc, but maintain beliefs like homosexuality is wrong, substitutionary atonement and the subjugation of women is moral? Why bother with any of it if you're just going to pick and choose and you know what is right or wrong?

[beninho]

But what makes you so superior that you feel the need to pity anyone? Just because you do have different views, opinions or beliefs. Plenty have a reason to believe something, whether you do not agree is down to you. But to say you pity them is ridiculous. You dont know my mum or my sister, you dont have any idea what she has been through, assuming you have not had cancer. They dont want your pity.

I am not fighting for respect for religion, as mentioned many times I am not a religious person. I am rational enough to accept and understand that people are different and have different views and opinions. I accept you to be completely anti religion thats fine, I just think the way your portray it is a bit rude, nasty and over the top.

God bless you though.

[super_realist]

How could I respect the belief? I've already said I don't care if someone believes in such ridiculous things as long as they don't want special treatment for it. Fine.

People might have a "reason", but it's no more a "reason" than someone believing they've been abducted by aliens, and so doesn't deserve any credit. Faith is credulity by definition.

I feel sorry for anyone who lives under a delusion or in something which doesn't reflect reality. Why wouldn't you?
I feel sorry for people who suffer from mental illness, who are bi-polar or who suffer from depression. What's wrong with having pity for people? That's empathy isn't it?

You're right, I don't know what your sister has been through, but I do know what other people have gone through in terms of life threatening illnesses, and I don't care if they believe in the cancer curing leprechaun, it doesn't make the belief any more valid or credible and it won't help them other than it might help them stop thinking about it. Is that the limit of credulous beliefs?

I'm not being rude, as I don't go up to people and say: "Why do you believe in such obvious nonsense?" UNLESS they are trying to get special treatment for it.

So if your parents and sister believe in a god and go to church, (why aren't they muslim, jewish, hindu or sikh by the way?) that's fine, just keep it in their clubs.

If someone wants to believe there is a supernatural being looking out for them, fine, just keep it to yourself and don't try and shoehorn it into politics, education etc. It has no more of a place than astrology, alchemy or anything else based on nonsense like that. It's amazing how much people get away with and how much they think their opinion matters in society if they have Rabbi, Rev, Father or Iman in front of their name. It doesn't, it's no more worthy than the Chairman of the Loch Ness Monster Appreciation Society.

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