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Rank Britain's Lineal Champs (Last 50 Years)

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Post by hazharrison on Wed 29 Mar 2017, 9:07 pm

Fury, Haye, Calzaghe, Hatton, Lewis, Hamed, Honeyghan, McGuigan*, Minter, Magri, Buchanan, Stracey.

*Barry was Irish but won the British title.

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Post by AdamT on Wed 29 Mar 2017, 10:47 pm

Lewis
Calzaghe
Buchanan

Not sure were I'd place the rest, but that's my top 3.

Might be laughable, but Fury has the chance to be high on the list, if he comes back and proves he's the man.

It's a difficult list and I'm going to favour fighters I've seen more of.

Be interesting to see what more hardcore fans with knowledge of the sport think.

What is yours?

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Post by Atila on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 12:31 am

Like AdamT, I'm only going to rank three

Lewis
Calzaghe
Honeyghan

Can't make up my mind about the rest.

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Post by AdamT on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 7:42 am

I know I definitely put Hatton behind Hamed.

Also Honyghan probably has the single biggest win. Definitely a tough list, but I think Lewis deserve top spot Imo.

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Post by hazharrison on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 10:25 am

Think I'd go:

Lewis
Calzaghe
Buchanan
Hamed
Honeyghan
Hatton
Minter
Fury
Haye
Stracey
Magri

Left Barry out - he's Irish I've decided! And I'm stretching with the last two - before my time.



Last edited by hazharrison on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 10:31 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by AdamT on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 10:30 am

hazharrison wrote:Think I'd go:

Lewis
Calzaghe
Buchanan
Hamed
Honeyghan
Hatton
Minter
Fury
Haye
Stracey
Magri

Left Barry out - he's Irish I've decided! And I'm strecthing with the last two - before my time.


I would of probably went the same way. It's hard to dispute the top 3. I think Calzaghe was a wonderful boxer, but I could never rank him over Lennox Lewis. Lewis had a couple of losses, but he avenged them and beat better competition for a long period of time. Lewis also won every belt that was going and was the best Heavyweight for many years.

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Post by milkyboy on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 11:50 am

Don't think haz is far off with that list. I think 2,3,4 are kind of interchangeable depending on your criteria, factoring in opposition etc. Buchanan was a hell of a fighter who just happened to ruin into the greatest lightweight in history.

5&6 I agree with - Honey's big win is better than hattons, Hatton had more good wins, can't be much in it.

As for the rest, Minter's record would have been much better if he wasn't a bleeder, Stracey was a one hit wonder, and timing was everything... but the record book says he beat an atg in his back yard. Fury's a wildcard as his career stands. Haye is definitely relegation material here and magri definitely bottom.

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Post by hazharrison on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 12:00 pm

Not a lot of them in 50 years is it?

DeGale probably has the best bet of joining them from the current lot. Joshua, maybe.

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Post by AdamT on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 12:58 pm

I actually thought there would be many more?

Loads of title holders, especially in the alphabet era.

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Post by Rodney on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 1:02 pm

Good thread Haz, agree with Milky your list isn't far off. I'd personally have Buchanan as number 2 edging out Calzaghe. His wins Donato Puduano,Ismael laguna I,Ismael laguna II,
Jim Watt and the absolute masterclass against Ruben Navarro trump Joe's decent swansong victories for me.

Cheers.
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Post by hazharrison on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 2:01 pm

Rodney wrote:Good thread Haz, agree with Milky your list isn't far off. I'd personally have Buchanan as number 2 edging out Calzaghe. His wins Donato Puduano,Ismael laguna I,Ismael laguna II,
Jim Watt and the absolute masterclass against Ruben Navarro trump Joe's decent swansong victories for me.

Cheers.

You may well be right there - I know a lot of folks would have Ken top of the tree. Maybe he should go up a place based on those wins.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 3:00 pm

Rodney wrote:Good thread Haz, agree with Milky your list isn't far off. I'd personally have Buchanan as number 2 edging out Calzaghe. His wins Donato Puduano,Ismael laguna I,Ismael laguna II,
Jim Watt and the absolute masterclass against Ruben Navarro trump Joe's decent swansong victories for me.

Cheers.

Wouldn't you have to rate Foreman over Joe Louis too then.... (Unbeaten Frazier....Norton...Lyle....) Which I know you don't Rod....

I have Louis number 2 Heavy on longevity mainly...............Which is why I have Calzaghe number 2 on this list....After Lewis.....Have Hamed 3....I don't know much about Minter

Watt gets a bum draw on lists like this.......But Grady and Davis were highly thought of............Don't know much about Pitalua.....

I know the Captain would probably have Buchanan top........Huge regard for him.........

I've only seen him against Duran and am going on his record mainly.....Shame he didn't rematch Duran...From what I've heard he was better than that..

Worth remembering Honeyghan victims Blocker and Rosi went on to win world titles.......He'd be above the likes of Haye and Fury for sure..

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Post by milkyboy on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 3:06 pm

I don't think his nads ever recovered from Duran 1, truss!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 3:14 pm

milkyboy wrote:I don't think his nads ever recovered from Duran 1, truss!

Certainly didn't look anything special against Duran......For such an accomplished talent......Five months later Dejesus beat him.

So I imagine Roberto was still learning..

But hey....captain and Rod know more than me about the guy and styles make fights......Happy to go with their assesssments but not going to put him above ten years of calzaghe's work...

I have Wlad above Bowe and he smashed a decent Holy twice..

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 3:19 pm

The loss to Ishimatsu stops him being above Calzaghe, he shouldn't be losing to that quality regardless of having a dodgy eye. A very good lightweight but not quite a great one.

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Post by Rodney on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 3:19 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Rodney wrote:Good thread Haz, agree with Milky your list isn't far off. I'd personally have Buchanan as number 2 edging out Calzaghe. His wins Donato Puduano,Ismael laguna I,Ismael laguna II,
Jim Watt and the absolute masterclass against Ruben Navarro trump Joe's decent swansong victories for me.

Cheers.

Wouldn't you have to rate Foreman over Joe Louis too then.... (Unbeaten Frazier....Norton...Lyle....) Which I know you don't Rod....

11 year title reign, fought every #1 contender between 1936 and 1951 except two where he was off at war - as once mentioned Joe Louis held the title for longer than Margret Thatcher held the keys to No 10!  That's why Foreman can't rank above him - him and Ali in their own league.

Interesting question 25 lineal defenses - can you ever see that being topped ?

Cheers.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 3:24 pm

Rodney wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Rodney wrote:Good thread Haz, agree with Milky your list isn't far off. I'd personally have Buchanan as number 2 edging out Calzaghe. His wins Donato Puduano,Ismael laguna I,Ismael laguna II,
Jim Watt and the absolute masterclass against Ruben Navarro trump Joe's decent swansong victories for me.

Cheers.

Wouldn't you have to rate Foreman over Joe Louis too then.... (Unbeaten Frazier....Norton...Lyle....) Which I know you don't Rod....

11 year title reign, fought every #1 contender between 1936 and 1951 except two where he was off at war - as once mentioned Joe Louis held the title for longer than Margret Thatcher held the keys to No 10!  That's why Foreman can't rank above him - him and Ali in their own league.

Cheers.

I know his record but you have Louis above Ali........Yet you have Buchanan above Calzaghe's ten year longevity because of a few performances by Ken..

Longevity card seems to being playing here for fighters you like and the better victory card seems to playing against longevity when it doesn't suit your narrative........

I'd never accuse you of any double standards though Rod.... Wink thumbsup

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Post by Rodney on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 3:28 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:The loss to Ishimatsu stops him being above Calzaghe, he shouldn't be losing to that quality regardless of having a dodgy eye. A very good lightweight but not quite a great one.

Yeah Its a valid point Hammer, however the rot had sent in and not just from Duran's shot to the gonads - I think Ken start to suffer a little upstairs and that was a real demise in his talents. I'd have him above Calzaghe but I wouldn't argue you about it - a very good case can be made for Joe being above him.

On a different note the great Roberto Duran always spoke highly of Buchanan's talent.

Roberto Duran: Best I faced.

BEST JAB

Buchanan: He was tall, boxed well and his lateral movement was extremely good. Buchanan’s jab was difficult to deal with because he threw it on the move.

BEST DEFENSE

Buchanan: He was hard to hit cleanly. I was very young, lacked experience, and Buchanan had been world champion for a long time. A lot of people will expect me to say Wilfred Benitez or Leonard when it comes to defense but I wasn’t prepared properly for Benitez or the Leonard rematch. Davey Moore, who I beat easily, knocked Benitez out so there’s no comparison there. I was coming into my prime against Buchanan and he made me miss often.

BEST CHIN

Marvelous Marvin Hagler: I hit Hagler with a lot of punches and he just kept coming. I didn’t find him as skillful as some of the opponents I faced but he was the toughest.

BEST PUNCHER

Esteban De Jesus: De Jesus was the first opponent to knock me down and he had me down again in the second fight. When I lost to Thomas Hearns I was drained from losing weight too quickly, and that had a bad effect on me. Hearns got me with a great punch but I could have performed far better in a rematch. Marvin Hagler, who is a good friend of mine, told Hearns the only reason he knocked me out is because I wasn’t at my best.

FASTEST HANDS

Sugar Ray Leonard: He was the fastest fighter I ever fought but in the first fight I saw everything that was coming at me.

FASTEST FEET

Buchanan: At lightweight the opponents were much swifter on their feet and, back then, we were boxing in 15-round fights. Buchanan always kept on the move but I caught up with him eventually. That victory means a lot to me.

SMARTEST

Leonard: It’s hard to give you one name but Leonard stands out because he made adjustments during fights.

STRONGEST

Hagler: It was an extremely close fight but he got me tired late. Even though I built myself up to middleweight, Hagler was much bigger and used his strength on the inside. After making weight, a fighter rehydrates and there was a big difference there. Still, even when I was tired, Hagler couldn’t get me down. There was no way I was going to get the decision but some fans and reporters thought I’d done enough. Hagler had big American fights pending with Leonard and Hearns so there was a lot of money at stake.

BEST OVERALL

Leonard: I have to say Sugar Ray Leonard because look at what he did in his career after he lost to me. It takes a lot to come back from defeat and Leonard did it.

no mentions of being rolled like a drunk in there.

Cheers.
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Post by Rodney on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 3:30 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Rodney wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Rodney wrote:Good thread Haz, agree with Milky your list isn't far off. I'd personally have Buchanan as number 2 edging out Calzaghe. His wins Donato Puduano,Ismael laguna I,Ismael laguna II,
Jim Watt and the absolute masterclass against Ruben Navarro trump Joe's decent swansong victories for me.

Cheers.

Wouldn't you have to rate Foreman over Joe Louis too then.... (Unbeaten Frazier....Norton...Lyle....) Which I know you don't Rod....

11 year title reign, fought every #1 contender between 1936 and 1951 except two where he was off at war - as once mentioned Joe Louis held the title for longer than Margret Thatcher held the keys to No 10!  That's why Foreman can't rank above him - him and Ali in their own league.

Cheers.

I know his record but you have Louis above Ali........Yet you have Buchanan above Calzaghe's ten year longevity because of a few performances by Ken..

Longevity card seems to being playing here for fighters you like and the better victory card seems to playing against longevity when it doesn't suit your narrative........

I'd never accuse you of any double standards though Rod.... Wink thumbsup

A lot of Joe's defenses Truss guys weren't even rated in the top 25 in the world and Calzaghe wasn't the main man in the division - its a completely different level of longevity.

Cheers
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 3:35 pm

Rodney wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:The loss to Ishimatsu stops him being above Calzaghe, he shouldn't be losing to that quality regardless of having a dodgy eye. A very good lightweight but not quite a great one.

Yeah Its a valid point Hammer, however the rot had sent in and not just from Duran's shot to the gonads  - I think Ken start to suffer a little upstairs and that was a real demise in his talents. I'd have him above Calzaghe but I wouldn't argue you about it - a very good case can be made for Joe being above him.

On a different note the great Roberto Duran always spoke highly of Buchanan's talent.

Roberto Duran: Best I faced.

BEST JAB

Buchanan: He was tall, boxed well and his lateral movement was extremely good. Buchanan’s jab was difficult to deal with because he threw it on the move.

BEST DEFENSE

Buchanan: He was hard to hit cleanly. I was very young, lacked experience, and Buchanan had been world champion for a long time. A lot of people will expect me to say Wilfred Benitez or Leonard when it comes to defense but I wasn’t prepared properly for Benitez or the Leonard rematch. Davey Moore, who I beat easily, knocked Benitez out so there’s no comparison there. I was coming into my prime against Buchanan and he made me miss often.

BEST CHIN

Marvelous Marvin Hagler: I hit Hagler with a lot of punches and he just kept coming. I didn’t find him as skillful as some of the opponents I faced but he was the toughest.

BEST PUNCHER

Esteban De Jesus: De Jesus was the first opponent to knock me down and he had me down again in the second fight. When I lost to Thomas Hearns I was drained from losing weight too quickly, and that had a bad effect on me. Hearns got me with a great punch but I could have performed far better in a rematch. Marvin Hagler, who is a good friend of mine, told Hearns the only reason he knocked me out is because I wasn’t at my best.

FASTEST HANDS

Sugar Ray Leonard: He was the fastest fighter I ever fought but in the first fight I saw everything that was coming at me.

FASTEST FEET

Buchanan: At lightweight the opponents were much swifter on their feet and, back then, we were boxing in 15-round fights. Buchanan always kept on the move but I caught up with him eventually. That victory means a lot to me.

SMARTEST

Leonard: It’s hard to give you one name but Leonard stands out because he made adjustments during fights.

STRONGEST

Hagler: It was an extremely close fight but he got me tired late. Even though I built myself up to middleweight, Hagler was much bigger and used his strength on the inside. After making weight, a fighter rehydrates and there was a big difference there. Still, even when I was tired, Hagler couldn’t get me down. There was no way I was going to get the decision but some fans and reporters thought I’d done enough. Hagler had big American fights pending with Leonard and Hearns so there was a lot of money at stake.

BEST OVERALL

Leonard: I have to say Sugar Ray Leonard because look at what he did in his career after he lost to me. It takes a lot to come back from defeat and Leonard did it.

no mentions of being rolled like a drunk in there.

Cheers.

Rolled like a drunk !! thumbsup

McCallum, Starling and Breland all thought Curry was the most technically gifted fighter they saw........But its what you do that counts Rod.....

Seems to me....

Buchanan's wins count for more than Calzaghe's length of reign
Louis length of reign seems to count more than Ali's wins... thumbsup

No big deal though..

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Post by Rodney on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 3:40 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Rodney wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:The loss to Ishimatsu stops him being above Calzaghe, he shouldn't be losing to that quality regardless of having a dodgy eye. A very good lightweight but not quite a great one.

Yeah Its a valid point Hammer, however the rot had sent in and not just from Duran's shot to the gonads  - I think Ken start to suffer a little upstairs and that was a real demise in his talents. I'd have him above Calzaghe but I wouldn't argue you about it - a very good case can be made for Joe being above him.

On a different note the great Roberto Duran always spoke highly of Buchanan's talent.

Roberto Duran: Best I faced.

BEST JAB

Buchanan: He was tall, boxed well and his lateral movement was extremely good. Buchanan’s jab was difficult to deal with because he threw it on the move.

BEST DEFENSE

Buchanan: He was hard to hit cleanly. I was very young, lacked experience, and Buchanan had been world champion for a long time. A lot of people will expect me to say Wilfred Benitez or Leonard when it comes to defense but I wasn’t prepared properly for Benitez or the Leonard rematch. Davey Moore, who I beat easily, knocked Benitez out so there’s no comparison there. I was coming into my prime against Buchanan and he made me miss often.

BEST CHIN

Marvelous Marvin Hagler: I hit Hagler with a lot of punches and he just kept coming. I didn’t find him as skillful as some of the opponents I faced but he was the toughest.

BEST PUNCHER

Esteban De Jesus: De Jesus was the first opponent to knock me down and he had me down again in the second fight. When I lost to Thomas Hearns I was drained from losing weight too quickly, and that had a bad effect on me. Hearns got me with a great punch but I could have performed far better in a rematch. Marvin Hagler, who is a good friend of mine, told Hearns the only reason he knocked me out is because I wasn’t at my best.

FASTEST HANDS

Sugar Ray Leonard: He was the fastest fighter I ever fought but in the first fight I saw everything that was coming at me.

FASTEST FEET

Buchanan: At lightweight the opponents were much swifter on their feet and, back then, we were boxing in 15-round fights. Buchanan always kept on the move but I caught up with him eventually. That victory means a lot to me.

SMARTEST

Leonard: It’s hard to give you one name but Leonard stands out because he made adjustments during fights.

STRONGEST

Hagler: It was an extremely close fight but he got me tired late. Even though I built myself up to middleweight, Hagler was much bigger and used his strength on the inside. After making weight, a fighter rehydrates and there was a big difference there. Still, even when I was tired, Hagler couldn’t get me down. There was no way I was going to get the decision but some fans and reporters thought I’d done enough. Hagler had big American fights pending with Leonard and Hearns so there was a lot of money at stake.

BEST OVERALL

Leonard: I have to say Sugar Ray Leonard because look at what he did in his career after he lost to me. It takes a lot to come back from defeat and Leonard did it.

no mentions of being rolled like a drunk in there.

Cheers.

Rolled like a drunk !! thumbsup

McCallum, Starling and Breland all thought Curry was the most technically gifted fighter they saw........But its what you do that counts Rod.....

Seems to me....

Buchanan's wins count for more than Calzaghe's length of reign
Louis length of reign seems to count more than Ali's wins
... thumbsup

No big deal though..

We're not comparing Calzaghe's WBO reign to Louis's lineal reign are we ?
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 3:47 pm

Rodney wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Rodney wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:The loss to Ishimatsu stops him being above Calzaghe, he shouldn't be losing to that quality regardless of having a dodgy eye. A very good lightweight but not quite a great one.

Yeah Its a valid point Hammer, however the rot had sent in and not just from Duran's shot to the gonads  - I think Ken start to suffer a little upstairs and that was a real demise in his talents. I'd have him above Calzaghe but I wouldn't argue you about it - a very good case can be made for Joe being above him.

On a different note the great Roberto Duran always spoke highly of Buchanan's talent.

Roberto Duran: Best I faced.

BEST JAB

Buchanan: He was tall, boxed well and his lateral movement was extremely good. Buchanan’s jab was difficult to deal with because he threw it on the move.

BEST DEFENSE

Buchanan: He was hard to hit cleanly. I was very young, lacked experience, and Buchanan had been world champion for a long time. A lot of people will expect me to say Wilfred Benitez or Leonard when it comes to defense but I wasn’t prepared properly for Benitez or the Leonard rematch. Davey Moore, who I beat easily, knocked Benitez out so there’s no comparison there. I was coming into my prime against Buchanan and he made me miss often.

BEST CHIN

Marvelous Marvin Hagler: I hit Hagler with a lot of punches and he just kept coming. I didn’t find him as skillful as some of the opponents I faced but he was the toughest.

BEST PUNCHER

Esteban De Jesus: De Jesus was the first opponent to knock me down and he had me down again in the second fight. When I lost to Thomas Hearns I was drained from losing weight too quickly, and that had a bad effect on me. Hearns got me with a great punch but I could have performed far better in a rematch. Marvin Hagler, who is a good friend of mine, told Hearns the only reason he knocked me out is because I wasn’t at my best.

FASTEST HANDS

Sugar Ray Leonard: He was the fastest fighter I ever fought but in the first fight I saw everything that was coming at me.

FASTEST FEET

Buchanan: At lightweight the opponents were much swifter on their feet and, back then, we were boxing in 15-round fights. Buchanan always kept on the move but I caught up with him eventually. That victory means a lot to me.

SMARTEST

Leonard: It’s hard to give you one name but Leonard stands out because he made adjustments during fights.

STRONGEST

Hagler: It was an extremely close fight but he got me tired late. Even though I built myself up to middleweight, Hagler was much bigger and used his strength on the inside. After making weight, a fighter rehydrates and there was a big difference there. Still, even when I was tired, Hagler couldn’t get me down. There was no way I was going to get the decision but some fans and reporters thought I’d done enough. Hagler had big American fights pending with Leonard and Hearns so there was a lot of money at stake.

BEST OVERALL

Leonard: I have to say Sugar Ray Leonard because look at what he did in his career after he lost to me. It takes a lot to come back from defeat and Leonard did it.

no mentions of being rolled like a drunk in there.

Cheers.

Rolled like a drunk !! thumbsup

McCallum, Starling and Breland all thought Curry was the most technically gifted fighter they saw........But its what you do that counts Rod.....

Seems to me....

Buchanan's wins count for more than Calzaghe's length of reign
Louis length of reign seems to count more than Ali's wins
... thumbsup

No big deal though..

We're not comparing Calzaghe's WBO reign to Louis's lineal reign are we ?

What we are doing is pointing out that longevity only matters to you it seems when it is a fighter you like...

If you use the better victories argument then Ali is miles better than any heavyweight....Yet you rate Louis over him because of his ten year longevity...

Yet you point to just two Buchanan victories and that outweighs Calzaghe's ten year reign....

Just seems a little bit strange.....But I'm boring everyone as usual and you are smokescreening well with an irrelevant appraisal by Duran and this call for relevancy..

So we'll move on.. thumbsup ...before one of us gets rolled.. Wink

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 3:49 pm

if Wlad gets creamed by Joshua early like I expect.....

Wonder if Napoles becomes a better win for Stracey than Fury's......

Napoles is a long way higher than Wlad in overall standing..

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 4:20 pm

hazharrison wrote:Not a lot of them in 50 years is it?

DeGale probably has the best bet of joining them from the current lot. Joshua, maybe.

Is Degale the lineal champ?

I suppose he could get that title now Jack moved up

Personally I thought he lost the Jack fight and quite clearly...

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Post by hazharrison on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 7:30 pm

BoxingFan88 wrote:
hazharrison wrote:Not a lot of them in 50 years is it?

DeGale probably has the best bet of joining them from the current lot. Joshua, maybe.

Is Degale the lineal champ?

I suppose he could get that title now Jack moved up

Personally I thought he lost the Jack fight and quite clearly...

No mate. Had he beaten Jack he would have been. He'd probably need to beat Ramirez or Groves now Jack has moved up.

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Post by AdamT on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 7:46 pm

How does Louis rate over Ali? Obviously his reign is far better Than Calzaghe, but he doesn't rate over Ali.

If Ali never went into exile, I have no doubt he would smash Joe's 25 defences.

Anyway back on topic. Not overly familiar with Buchanan, but many my Dad:s age rate him as the best Uk fighter ever.

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Post by hazharrison on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 8:21 pm

AdamT wrote:How does Louis rate over Ali? Obviously his reign is far better Than Calzaghe, but he doesn't rate over Ali.

If Ali never went into exile, I have no doubt he would smash Joe's 25 defences.

Anyway back on topic. Not overly familiar with Buchanan, but many my Dad:s age rate him as the best Uk fighter ever.

I doubt that with Joe Frazier on the horizon...

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Post by milkyboy on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 9:07 pm

hazharrison wrote:
AdamT wrote:How does Louis rate over Ali? Obviously his reign is far better Than Calzaghe, but he doesn't rate over Ali.

If Ali never went into exile, I have no doubt he would smash Joe's 25 defences.

Anyway back on topic. Not overly familiar with Buchanan, but many my Dad:s age rate him as the best Uk fighter ever.

I doubt that with Joe Frazier on the horizon...

You so sure Frazier wins the fight of the century without Ali's Vietnam layoff? He certainly came back a much less mobile fighter. Might have depended when it happened and no doubt a prime joe gives any version of Ali a hard time. One of the great what if's.

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Post by Atila on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 9:09 pm

AdamT wrote:How does Louis rate over Ali? Obviously his reign is far better Than Calzaghe, but he doesn't rate over Ali.

If Ali never went into exile, I have no doubt he would smash Joe's 25 defences.

Anyway back on topic. Not overly familiar with Buchanan, but many my Dad:s age rate him as the best Uk fighter ever.
If Louis hadn't had to serve in WW2 and miss four years of his championship reign, the rate he was going, he could have made 35-40 defences of the title, maybe more.

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Post by Atila on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 9:15 pm

milkyboy wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
AdamT wrote:How does Louis rate over Ali? Obviously his reign is far better Than Calzaghe, but he doesn't rate over Ali.

If Ali never went into exile, I have no doubt he would smash Joe's 25 defences.

Anyway back on topic. Not overly familiar with Buchanan, but many my Dad:s age rate him as the best Uk fighter ever.

I doubt that with Joe Frazier on the horizon...

You so sure Frazier wins the fight of the century without Ali's Vietnam layoff? He certainly came back a much less mobile fighter.  Might have depended when it happened and no doubt a prime joe  gives any version of Ali a hard time. One of the great what if's.
The weird thing about Ali losing to Frazier in 1971 is that even though Ali was a massive name, it took 3 more years before he got a title shot again. These days after a fight like Frazier v Ali 1, there would be an instant rematch. Even more weird, is that Foreman never got a rematch with Ali despite fighting on for another 3 years after their fight.

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Post by milkyboy on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 9:20 pm

Atila wrote:
AdamT wrote:How does Louis rate over Ali? Obviously his reign is far better Than Calzaghe, but he doesn't rate over Ali.

If Ali never went into exile, I have no doubt he would smash Joe's 25 defences.

Anyway back on topic. Not overly familiar with Buchanan, but many my Dad:s age rate him as the best Uk fighter ever.
If Louis hadn't had to serve in WW2 and miss four years of his championship reign, the rate he was going, he could have made 35-40 defences of the title, maybe more.

Very true Atila, at a rate of 1 bum per month I make that 48 missed defences Very Happy

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Post by hazharrison on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 9:41 pm

Atila wrote:
milkyboy wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
AdamT wrote:How does Louis rate over Ali? Obviously his reign is far better Than Calzaghe, but he doesn't rate over Ali.

If Ali never went into exile, I have no doubt he would smash Joe's 25 defences.

Anyway back on topic. Not overly familiar with Buchanan, but many my Dad:s age rate him as the best Uk fighter ever.

I doubt that with Joe Frazier on the horizon...

You so sure Frazier wins the fight of the century without Ali's Vietnam layoff? He certainly came back a much less mobile fighter.  Might have depended when it happened and no doubt a prime joe  gives any version of Ali a hard time. One of the great what if's.
The weird thing about Ali losing to Frazier in 1971 is that even though Ali was a massive name, it took 3 more years before he got a title shot again. These days after a fight like Frazier v Ali 1, there would be an instant rematch. Even more weird, is that Foreman never got a rematch with Ali despite fighting on for another 3 years after their fight.

The Ali fight took its toll on Frazier. There were rumours of all kinds of health complications. He took two easy fights while they tried to get him into shape and went on tour with his band before running into Foreman (which delayed everything).

Frazier wasn't really ever the same fighter after the Fight of the Century. It was an epic win. Some fighters reach the mountain top and then regress - others can keep on ticking. Hatton wasn't the same guy after Tszyu. McGuigan after Pedroza. They weren't shot fighters, they just couldn't ever reach the levels they managed to in those career-high wins.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 9:46 pm

Rodney wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:The loss to Ishimatsu stops him being above Calzaghe, he shouldn't be losing to that quality regardless of having a dodgy eye. A very good lightweight but not quite a great one.

Yeah Its a valid point Hammer, however the rot had sent in and not just from Duran's shot to the gonads  - I think Ken start to suffer a little upstairs and that was a real demise in his talents. I'd have him above Calzaghe but I wouldn't argue you about it - a very good case can be made for Joe being above him.

Thinking about this from another point of view, Buchanan has a lot of non title wins that are more than comparable to Calzaghe's reign.

Ageing versions of Ortiz and Hernandez are better than 90% of Calzaghe's win column, longevity doesn't always mean lots of title defences.

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Post by AdamT on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 9:56 pm

Frazier would never beat an active Ali. Yeah he would be tough, but come on.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Thu 30 Mar 2017, 10:02 pm

Ali was always susceptible to a left hook so seems a bit folly to write off the chances of Frazier when he had the best left hook in the business, he wouldn't get near the 25 defences as against the 70's crop he'd slip up eventually.

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Post by Atila on Fri 31 Mar 2017, 6:08 pm

hazharrison wrote:
Atila wrote:
milkyboy wrote:
hazharrison wrote:
AdamT wrote:How does Louis rate over Ali? Obviously his reign is far better Than Calzaghe, but he doesn't rate over Ali.

If Ali never went into exile, I have no doubt he would smash Joe's 25 defences.

Anyway back on topic. Not overly familiar with Buchanan, but many my Dad:s age rate him as the best Uk fighter ever.

I doubt that with Joe Frazier on the horizon...

You so sure Frazier wins the fight of the century without Ali's Vietnam layoff? He certainly came back a much less mobile fighter.  Might have depended when it happened and no doubt a prime joe  gives any version of Ali a hard time. One of the great what if's.
The weird thing about Ali losing to Frazier in 1971 is that even though Ali was a massive name, it took 3 more years before he got a title shot again. These days after a fight like Frazier v Ali 1, there would be an instant rematch. Even more weird, is that Foreman never got a rematch with Ali despite fighting on for another 3 years after their fight.

The Ali fight took its toll on Frazier. There were rumours of all kinds of health complications. He took two easy fights while they tried to get him into shape and went on tour with his band before running into Foreman (which delayed everything).

Frazier wasn't really ever the same fighter after the Fight of the Century. It was an epic win. Some fighters reach the mountain top and then regress - others can keep on ticking. Hatton wasn't the same guy after Tszyu. McGuigan after Pedroza. They weren't shot fighters, they just couldn't ever reach the levels they managed to in those career-high wins.
Hatton was the same guy, it's just that when he reached the mountain top and HBO started to pick his opponents, they weren't as hand picked as they were before.

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