PGA Tour: The Masters - The Elimination Game: Notes from the Ballwasher

First topic message reminder :

OK, We haven't done this for a couple of years, going through the field of 94 golfers in completely arbitrary and biased fashion until we find a winner we can be happy with. Inspired by Andy North.

No consideration is being made for the conditions which may be influenced by the weather forecast. Storms on Monday closed the course, should be pleasant today, but more storms expected Wednesday. Perhaps the SubAir will presumably cope unless it blows a gasket through overuse, but it sounds as if fairways will still be soft. Then cool and quite windy for Rounds 1 and 2, fine and calmer for the weekend, greens drying out and running at 20 on the Stimpmeter.

1).No amateur has won The Masters and that won't change this week. Five golfers eliminated.

2).And Augusta first-timers haven't won since Fuzzy almost 40 years ago. That gets rid of 14 more, but this is an impressive crop of debutants including Fleetwood, Hadwin, Noren, Pieters & Rahm. Sorry guys, maybe next year.

3).Old Masters and Past Masters: This year in particular, the over-forties crowd who have flourished in the past, have been put into their place by the Young Guns. No-one over 40 has won the Green Jacket since Fatty O'Meara in 1998 and I don't see that trend changing, although Mickelson would undoubtedly bet against that trend. Green Zimmer frames for Phil, Lee, Henrik and 20 others, including 38-y-o Trevor Immelman who won't be in contention. Will he?

For those scoring at home, that's 42 down, 52 to go.

4).We haven't seen an Asian-born Major winner and who's to say Matsuyama won't be the first? Just not this week, Hideki, and you can commiserate with Ben An, James Hahn, Ikeda, Kevin Na (got to get rid of him somehow) and Tanihara. That's another six deported, 46 to go.

5).Continental Europe hasn't produced a winner since Jose Maria 18 years ago and that won't change this year, much as I think Rafa will have a good week. That's five more gone, plus I'll throw in Shane Lowry if my back can take it. 40 remain.

6).Lightning won't strike twice, willett? Very thin ice here as I really like Justin Rose to have a fine week. Good form all year and this may be his focus, much as Rio was last year. But the rest of the British contingent (including Rory) will drown their sorrows with the Patrons, and that's another 9 down the drain. 31 still playing.

7).I like winners and recent winners even more. That sees the field narrow considerably if I eliminate all those who haven't won this year or last - 11 more leave the premises, and then there were 20 (hate to see Kisner go).

8).Some high-flyers from last year have been under the radar this. Augusta National is no place to rediscover your game so adios to Jason Day, Spieth (but he'll surely be around the lead, won't he?), Scott, Reed, Bubba, 3 x Saffers, Walker, Koepka, Berger, Moore. That's a dozen to the exit, and an elite eight remain.

9).Most Masters winners are terrific putters, and Justin Thomas (48th in putting), Brendan Steele (102nd) and Johnny Vegas (164th) won't get it done.

10).Which leaves DJ, Fowler, Henley, Leishman and Sneds.
Sneds ticks most of the boxes, not least being someone who embraces the "Augusta" thing. Not in top form though.
Fowler still has that double-bogey in his DNA.
So this leaves us with a top 3 of Russell Henley, Marc Leishman and Dustin Johnson. All recent winners of course, but nothing wrong with a hot golfer. I can't see past DJ; he may be unsettled by the wind early in the tournament but soft fairways won't hurt him at all.  
Best of the rest: Berger, Oosthuizen, Rose, Spieth.

Diggers wrote:The jacket and the ceremony belong together, both appalling.

The presentation in the Butler Cabin is the unofficial ceremony. The official ceremony takes place on the 18th green afterwards. Corny none the less. The chit chatting with the amateur is also a bit awkward. But hey, it's The Masters, it has to be clichéed and surreal. David Lynch couldn't have scripted it better.

navyblueshorts wrote:

McLaren wrote:Utter choke.   I am surely allowed to use the choke label this time?

How do you like the taste of that humble pie Mac?

Probably a nice distraction from the usual pasta with ketchup.

pedro wrote:

Diggers wrote:The jacket and the ceremony belong together, both appalling.

The presentation in the Butler Cabin is the unofficial ceremony. The official ceremony takes place on the 18th green afterwards. Corny none the less. The chit chatting with the amateur is also a bit awkward. But hey, it's The Masters, it has to be clichéed and surreal. David Lynch couldn't have scripted it better.

It's terrible isn't it? Jim Nantz is supposed to be a broadcaster with lots of experience but every year it's like he hasn't been watching any of the golf at all. Hootie Payne is the man who was the Sebastian Coe to Atlanta Olympics, yet he's like a doddery old idiot who has forgotten his own name.
It's such a shame to end such a great spectacle in such a hackneyed manner.

navyblueshorts wrote:

McLaren wrote:Utter choke.   I am surely allowed to use the choke label this time?

:laugh: How do you like the taste of that humble pie Mac?

If we are going to get smart arsed I would point out that regardless of what happened afterwords he still choked the first attempt at winning.

Hardly choked Mac, by your reasoning i assume you have declared that Rose choked given his poor drive on the first playoff hole. Especially as he had the Honour.

If the Green Jacket ceremony gives so many of you angst, why do you continue to watch it? The tournament is over, very late in Europe (near Midnight or 1 am) and yet you continue to watch.

Its like the guy who was asked why he keeps jamming an ice pick in his ear. Answer: "Because it feels so good when I stop"

McLaren wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

McLaren wrote:Utter choke.   I am surely allowed to use the choke label this time?

How do you like the taste of that humble pie Mac?

If we are going to get smart arsed I would point out that regardless of what happened afterwords he still choked the first attempt at winning.

Mac even Harrington said that putt in regulation on 18 was really tough, he was right on a little ridge, from his feet the ball broke left, from where the ball was it broke right. You have to give dues where dues are deserved, and the only choking that was being done was by those struggling to swallow while finally seeing Sergio break his duck.

Even Harrington? You say that like it's meant to mean something

Well Davie, as most people would know there isn't too much love lost between Harrington & Sergio, and Harrington is recognised as one of the best pressure putters out there, so when he is standing up in defence of the difficulty of that putt, I think we can generally agree it was a tough putt, and there was no shame in missing it.

I'd say Rose choked on 17, his approach on 18 in regulation and his drive on the 1st playoff hole.

Garcias putts on 16 and 18 were quite difficult, both downhill with a break. But T2G he played beautifully over the last 5-6 holes.

Rose didn't choke pedro, he played steller golf for the past two days. His first putt on 18 in regulation was exactly where he aimed it, his first putt on 18 in the playoff broke exactly as he had expected it to do in regulation. His tee shot on 18 in the PO wasn't to his usual standard but I wouldn't describe it as a choke. That tournament was won not lost.

GPB wrote:If the Green Jacket ceremony gives so many of you angst, why do you continue to watch it?  The tournament is over, very late in Europe (near Midnight or 1 am) and yet you continue to watch.

Its like the guy who was asked why he keeps jamming an ice pick in his ear.  Answer: "Because it feels so good when I stop"

Probably because I was looking for it to actually be a credit to Garcia's win in light of it being the most exciting Masters in years, but as usual, those two turds Nantz and Hootie just ruined it again....

This is probably the Major people want to win more than others, and the presentation is compered by two rank amateurs.

You're right, I didn't have to watch it, but how would I have known how turgid it would be unless I did?

So all joking of chokes aside, what's people's opinion of the pivotal moment??
1. The par recovery on 13
2. The Eagle on 15
3. Something else (e.g. Rose's missed putt on 17, Rose's sprayed drive on PO hole)

I hate the word "choke" in golf; if either Rose or Garcia choked, think how badly the other 91 bottled it.
Ridiculous, they were outstandingly the cream of the tournament, a shame either would have to lose.

Strangely, there were loads of mid/long range putts made, but lots of 6ft and in missed. Faldo said early in the broadcast that the holes were often cut where there was little break and golfers were over-reading it. Not necessarily a factor every time, but that looked quite (unusually?) perceptive.


Pivotal moment? When Rose and Willett respectively embraced Sergio - almost as if they were saying welcome to the (Majors) club, certainly don't see that every time. Otherwise: 15!!

I'd say your no 1 JAS, thats where Sergio stopped the rot and started to play agressively. That par save on 13 was big. It also helped that 18 sets up perfectly for him power fade off the tee the mid to low iron in.

Kwini, I didn't see any comments from you on Sergio and Rose's tortoise like pace in the middle of the round. They were two holes behind Fowler/Spieth for much of the round.

Somehow, if this were Crane/Na I think you would be all over them "like white on rice". But two Europeans...nary a word.

And super-realist, in other words, it feels so good when you stop jamming an ice pick in your ear. I don't understand watching something that you know that you are going to hate. Whats the generally accepted definition of insanity. something like doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

GPB,
I didn't see your comment until late; I'm not sure why the gap, but Sergio's rulings on the back nine surely didn't help - by the bushes on 10 or 11, in the shrubs on 13.
And, you're right, can't stand Crane and Na - any excuse to slag them off I'll be first in line.

That ceremony is grisly, no ifs, ands or buts. Has been for generations.

15 for me, not least because the gentle rebound off the flag I think gave him an easier put up the hill than he'd have had from behind the hole.

15: if it hadnt hit the flag don't you think it wouldve spun back under the hole and still given him an uphill putt?

13: ok it worked out well in the end, but why didnt he take a drop in the fairway in stead of the shrubs? He still coluld've played himself in position?

kwinigolfer wrote:GPB,
I didn't see your comment until late; I'm not sure why the gap, but Sergio's rulings on the back nine surely didn't help - by the bushes on 10 or 11, in the shrubs on 13.
And, you're right, can't stand Crane and Na - any excuse to slag them off I'll be first in line.

That ceremony is grisly, no ifs, ands or buts. Has been for generations.

They were behind the pace going into the back nine and I don't think there was a ruling on #11, and #10 was a standard ruling.

And they were playing behind SPIETH...who is alleged to be one of the slower players.

And why do you watch the ceremony if it is so grisly? especially if you think it has been that way for generations. So you can beeyotch about it?

GPB wrote:Kwini, I didn't see any comments from you on Sergio and Rose's tortoise like pace in the middle of the round.  They were two holes behind Fowler/Spieth for much of the round.

Somehow, if this were Crane/Na I think you would be all over them "like white on rice".  But two Europeans...nary a word.

And super-realist, in other words, it feels so good when you stop jamming an ice pick in your ear.  I don't understand watching something that you know that you are going to hate.  Whats the generally accepted definition of insanity.  something like doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

GPB, I haven't watched the "Butler Cabin" ceremony for about 15 years. How was I to know that it would still be so crap?
Am I not allowed to mention how bad it STILL IS?

I can't think of a single sports award ceremony (in fact any award ceremony) that I look forward to. The only reason I watch every now and then is to see the reaction of the players and anything they might have to say.
I have no problem with the word choke in sport, but certainly don't think it applies in the instance. A choke for me is a consistent poor run of play, not missing a very slippy putt. Both guys deserve a lot of credit for their level of play under pressure.

Wimbledon is usually OK (as long as it's not Nadal biting the trophy) as is World Cup. Not that I look forward to either, but usually nice to see.

Agree with you about  choking. Players miss putts all the time when they aren't under pressure, missing a green or a putt when you are under pressure does not mean you are choking. Good as they are, you can't hit 18 greens in regulation and hole every putt you have. You can hit great putts all day, but sometimes it's not your fault if they don't go in. Spike marks for example or inconsistencies in the greens.

Footballers misplace passes at crucial moments all the time, no one says they are choking. It's silly to say someone is choking on the basis of 1 or 2 shots in the closing holes. Perhaps if Rose had gone 6,7,8 then you could say he had, but one errant drive and one missed putt do not a choker make.

I would just like to place on record that everything about USA and in particular golf in US is beyond perfect. The players all play at a fashionably good pace, and the president is charming, clever and good looking. Sergio's win counts for nothing as DJ wasn't playing and anyway he and Justin should have been disqualified - taking 4.25 hours to play the final round of a (near) major in contention just sucks!
Just one question (genuine). Are there more opportunities to qualify for the Masters and PGA if golfer plays, and/or is resident in US?

I did notice the difference between fowler/spieth and Sergio/rose, though not sure where it came from, as on the front 9, i recall them waiting for the group to putt out. Though the way spieth and fowler played, they knew they had blown their chance so may have played a bit quicker with a little less care.

I don't usually watch the presentation, but did this time, i found it a bit meh, but it was good to see how happy Danny W looked for Sergio.

I found that good too, nice to see the camaraderie between the players.

Eligibility for Masters, PGA?

Definitely easier for a PGA Tour member to get into The Masters, as all full-field PGA Tournament winners get invited (but not winners of the three opposite field events).

And they also get into the PGA, as do opposite field event winners, but the PGA trawls the Top 100 (often more) of the owgr's (as opposed to Top 50 for Masters) so that is pretty comprehensive. Plus the PGA adds the Top 20 from the Club Professional Championship.

So The Masters definitely favours PGA Tour members, the PGA does too but anyone from International Tours worth their salt should get in.

Local qualifying must get under way for US Open qualification begins in 3 weeks - is it really that time already? Our courses are not even open yet!

Kwini - yes I thought so!! Great pity IMO that golf doesn't have proper spread of majors.
I'm doing scoring hut duties again for local qualifying in June. Always a good number of ams taking part, from U.K. and further afield. Great event but tough to get all the way into a full field event like the Open Championship.

It's really tough these days. Only really top Amateurs of the Paul Dunne variety getting in now, which makes me laugh when Club Pro's like Rick Shiels and Peter Finch have this somewhat far fetched "Quest for the Open" series of videos.
Likeable guys, but not remotely good enough to get one of the few qualifying spots.

We had a ton of guys at St.Andrews of Scratch of better having a go, and they might as well set fire to their entry fee.
They aren't good enough to shoot 66 in multiple rounds. So many pipe dreamers there.

super_realist wrote:I found that good too, nice to see the camaraderie between the players.

Its what also make me laugh. We as the general public can only make assumptions of people based on a few interviews and tv appearances. Some people not just on here, really do not like Sergio, yet you see when he wins, so many of his peers, of all nationalities seem so very happy for him. So in all likelihood he is probably a pretty decent guy. Not saying its not good to have an irrational hatred though.

Very true Super, but the qualifier in itself becomes a big thing. Regrettably I've seen a few, mostly pros, have a mare and then rip the cards up etc. We've always ended with a play off, and couple of years ago sent someone off to try and find pro who had doubled last hole, but hadn't realised that still got him into playoff. He was parked up in lay-by couple of miles away in tears - came back and won play off. Nice to know it does mean something to them!
Had play off 7 for 2 spots, and 7 for 6 spots! Amazing difference in dynamic between the players!

pedro wrote:13: ok it worked out well in the end, but why didnt he take a drop in the fairway in stead of the shrubs? He still coluld've played himself in position?

I tought he played the correct shot. First he could pretty accurately predict the lie, with a good chance of placing...   Plus from his position in the bushes he could find the left side of the fW on his layup.   If you drop back 50-100 yards... it's very difficult to get it anywhere except the right side in the FW... which is a worse angle to the pin. And if he leaves it way right towards the 14th member tee... then he has a sidehill downhill lie, and even keeping it on the green would be a challenge. Most people don't realize just how much flatter it is and how much they're looking up the length of the green with a lot of options on how to play a shot and margin for error short from where Sergio played... but the further right you go, the more have to fly it to a shallower more precise target from a more difficult lie.

beninho wrote: yet you see when he wins, so many of his peers, of all nationalities seem so very happy for him.

I think that was evidenced in the number of pros who turned up for his charity event the day after The Open. Click here if you want to see.

Awesome win for Sergio. Can't say as i've ever been a real big fan of his though I have a lot more respect for his game than a lot give him. Once my favorite, Spieth had clearly spit the bit... I surprised even myself how hard I was rooting for Sergio. After 10, 11 and the drive on #13, I was thinking... "Same old Sergio"... but WOW.. he manned up big time. The par save on #13 and the way he played the rest of the way was true Champion Caliber stuff... just awesome.

And NO... there were chokes a plenty at the Masters... but NOTHING Rose or Garcia did was among them. Did they feel the pressure and did it affect some shots? Oh hell yes... but did either lock up and start hitting horrible shot after horrible shot. NO. Not in the least.

I'm never wrong wrote:

beninho wrote: yet you see when he wins, so many of his peers, of all nationalities seem so very happy for him.  

I think that was evidenced in the number of pros who turned up for his charity event the day after The Open. Click here if you want to see.

McLaren wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

McLaren wrote:Utter choke.   I am surely allowed to use the choke label this time?

How do you like the taste of that humble pie Mac?

If we are going to get smart arsed I would point out that regardless of what happened afterwords he still choked the first attempt at winning.

No, he didn't. He just misread it. His putting stroke was fine, with no evidence of anything that would portray the nerves he must have had. Your use of 'choke' says more about you than anything else.
Interesting how I haven't seen your considered commentary on how Rose "choked" his tee shot up 18 in the playoff, or how he hit such a fat recovery even you could have done better. You're so selective in your hatred, it's laughable. And all because you perceive Garcia as having dissed your hero, Woods.

Navy

I guess saying "you perceive" is one way of putting it. Another would be that I just accept what other better placed people have said about using "fried chicken" as a racial slur. But do we really need to rake over this again? If you really want to then take it to the off topic section, I will make no further comments about this on Kwini's thread.


As for Sergios putt on 18 (in regulation) it didn't look as bad a stroke as the approach putt on 17. His stroke totally broke down and he hit across it almost chopping down on the ball. Ugly.

Be_the_ball wrote:I see some people picking Sergio Garcia on Sporty's game. Does anyone really think he has a chance of winning on Augusta greens? or is it an attempt at winding up GPB, Shotrock and Robo?

Gazing into your crystal ball again BtB? Haha

super_realist wrote:I'm talking about his empty headed interviews and how he comes across. Makes Ronnie O Sullivan's recent one word answers look enlightening. Stull not as bad as a Steven Gerrard interview though.

I suppose you consider ronnie O'Sullivan boring too?

raycastleunited wrote:

Be_the_ball wrote:I see some people picking Sergio Garcia on Sporty's game. Does anyone really think he has a chance of winning on Augusta greens? or is it an attempt at winding up GPB, Shotrock and Robo?

Gazing into your crystal ball again BtB? Haha

Yeah... Sergio wound me right up into a win in Sporty's game... Hate it when that happens...

Sounds like Sergio is taking a month off before reappearing at The Players.

Wish Sergio's win, and the success of Rafa and promise of Jon Rahm, could inspire another tournament in Espana - seems such a shame we have to wait until October for the next action in Spain.

robopz wrote:

raycastleunited wrote:

Be_the_ball wrote:I see some people picking Sergio Garcia on Sporty's game. Does anyone really think he has a chance of winning on Augusta greens? or is it an attempt at winding up GPB, Shotrock and Robo?

Gazing into your crystal ball again BtB? Haha

Yeah... Sergio wound me right up into a win in Sporty's game... Hate it when that happens...

The absolute last place on earth I thought Sergio could win was around Augusta, its not supposed to suit his game at all. He plays a fade and (up to now) has been a terrible putter, makes the scale of his win even bigger really, An Open or a PGA I could see, never a Masters. I didn't think there were enough psychologists on the planet to sort his mind out with the flat stick in hand. Something's clicked somewhere. Wouldn't rule out more now.

They are talking about moving the tee back on 13, so there will be no more high fades over the trees, it will have to be played as it was designed with a draw. Going into that green with a low iron was a bit of a mockery.

Be_the_ball wrote:

robopz wrote:

raycastleunited wrote:

Be_the_ball wrote:I see some people picking Sergio Garcia on Sporty's game. Does anyone really think he has a chance of winning on Augusta greens? or is it an attempt at winding up GPB, Shotrock and Robo?

Gazing into your crystal ball again BtB? Haha

Yeah... Sergio wound me right up into a win in Sporty's game... Hate it when that happens...

The absolute last place on earth I thought Sergio could win was around Augusta, its not supposed to suit his game at all. He plays a fade and (up to now) has been a terrible putter, makes the scale of his win even bigger really, An Open or a PGA I could see, never a Masters. I didn't think there were enough psychologists on the planet to sort his mind out with the flat stick in hand. Something's clicked somewhere. Wouldn't rule out more now.

They are talking about moving the tee back on 13, so there will be no more high fades over the trees, it will have to be played as it was designed with a draw. Going into that green with a low iron was a bit of a mockery.

Indeed BtB when you look at Sergios record a Top 10 at The Open is commonplace, Augusta, not so much. This time last last year who would honestly have had 2 of the next 4 majors going to major virgins with putting frailties on 2 of the toughest sets of greens the Pros ever get to see (DJ at Oakmont being the other). Speaks volumes for their tee to green game. Maybe there's still hope for Westwood!! :-p

Yes JAS, I'd love to see Westwood win one, its got to give him hope watching Sergio do it.

Be_the_ball wrote:The absolute last place on earth I thought Sergio could win was around Augusta, its not supposed to suit his game at all. He plays a fade and (up to now) has been a terrible putter, makes the scale of his win even bigger really, An Open or a PGA I could see, never a Masters. I didn't think there were enough psychologists on the planet to sort his mind out with the flat stick in hand. Something's clicked somewhere. Wouldn't rule out more now.

They are talking about moving the tee back on 13, so there will be no more high fades over the trees, it will have to be played as it was designed with a draw. Going into that green with a low iron was a bit of a mockery.

In all honesty... Sergio wasn't even on my radar until I saw the comment about me when I logged in to make my picks... So I threw him in there just for fun with ZERO expectations. Glad he won, but I don't think this will lead to more Masters glory for Sergio in the future. He may have a better attitude, but his game is still not suited for that course. All credit to him, his week came together in kind of a perfect storm and he took advantage of it... But IMO this was a one-off Masters. Open or a PGA though....hmmmm

Jason Day . . . . Danny Willett . . . . Dustin Johnson . . . . Henrik Stenson . . . . Jimmy Walker . . . . Sergio Garcia . . . . xxxxxx

~I wonder what the longest streak of first-time Major winners is?

~And who would we choose to be next first-timer in line??

robopz wrote:

Be_the_ball wrote:The absolute last place on earth I thought Sergio could win was around Augusta, its not supposed to suit his game at all. He plays a fade and (up to now) has been a terrible putter, makes the scale of his win even bigger really, An Open or a PGA I could see, never a Masters. I didn't think there were enough psychologists on the planet to sort his mind out with the flat stick in hand. Something's clicked somewhere. Wouldn't rule out more now.

They are talking about moving the tee back on 13, so there will be no more high fades over the trees, it will have to be played as it was designed with a draw. Going into that green with a low iron was a bit of a mockery.

In all honesty... Sergio wasn't even on my radar until I saw the comment about me when I logged in to make my picks... So I threw him in there just for fun with ZERO expectations. Glad he won, but I don't think this will lead to more Masters glory for Sergio in the future. He may have a better attitude, but his game is still not suited for that course. All credit to him, his week came together in kind of a perfect storm and he took advantage of it... But IMO this was a one-off Masters. Open or a PGA though....hmmmm

He could go one of two ways now, he could do a Duval and lose interest or he could do a Phil and kick on for more majors. But yes I still think his best chance of adding to this would be at the Open or PGA.

Glad I provided the inspiration for your win, does this mean I get to share in the spoils?

kwinigolfer wrote:Jason Day . . . . Danny Willett . . . . Dustin Johnson . . . . Henrik Stenson . . . . Jimmy Walker . . . . Sergio Garcia . . . . xxxxxx

~I wonder what the longest streak of first-time Major winners is?

~And who would we choose to be next first-timer in line??

McDowell - Oosthuizen - Kaymer - Schwartzel - McIlroy - Clarke - Bradley - Watson - Simpson is the longest, 9 spanning 2010-2012. Bookended by Phil's last Masters and Ernie's second Open. Only other instance of 6 or more since the first Masters was 2002-2004: Beem - Weir - Furyk - Curtis - Micheel - Mickelson. As far as I can see the only year prior to 2003 with a full house of debutant winners was 1969, bonus points to anyone who knows those four.

Sarge! He's the fattest anyway. Jacklin?
Had to google the other two. Nice one.

That McDowell to Simpson streak is incredible. Thanks!

Hard to believe that in 1969 there wouldn't have been a Nicklaus, Palmer, Player or Trevino. Jacklin definitely, then the others would be guessed before a google, Weiskopf? Floyd?, Charles?