England tour to Argentina

First topic message reminder :

It has been touched on in other threads but thought it was worth its own post.  
With the Lions touring to NZ there will be an opportunity for EJ to test some fresh talent.  Who would you like to see?

Interesting fact...the last time Wade was capped was the last tour to Argentina when he was also called into the Lions.
Clifford is now ruled out as having shoulder surgery - http://www.quins.co.uk/news/jack-clifford-injury-update/

I am working on the assumption that Lions call ups will be - Hartley, George, Cole, Itoje, Lawes, Mako V, Billy V, Launchbury, Youngs, Farrell, Joseph, Watson, Daly, Haskell, Brown......(there will be others I am sure and possibly some of these wont go).

But on that assumption and picking 2 in each position I would think that the tour selection group could be something like this - (from EPS and Saxons)
1. Marler, Genge
2. Taylor, LCD
3. Sinkler, Catt (not sure if he is TH or LH)
4. Kruis, Attwood
5. Ewels , ?
6. Robshaw, D.Armond
7. T.Harrison, T.Wood
8. Hughes, J.Chisholm
9. Care, Robson
10. Ford, Slade
11.J.May, Rokko
12.Ben Teo, ?
13.? ?
14.Yarde, Wade
15.Lozowski, Goode

Those are the chaps that I can think of from the current EPS and Saxons - There are a number that I am sure wont be included and a number from outside the squads that might have a run.
Guys like Solomona have been mentioned, Underhill, Beaumont, youngsters from U20s - Malinder, Marchant,
Who is a good option for 13?

UPDATED WITH SELECTED SQUAD -
Forwards
Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Dylan Hartley – captain (Northampton Saints, 84 caps)
James Haskell (Wasps, 75 caps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 8 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 42 caps)
Matt Mullan (Wasps, 15 caps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 55 caps)
Sam Underhill (Ospreys/Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 50 caps)

Backs
Mike Brown – vice-captain (Harlequins, 60 caps)
Danny Care – vice captain (Harlequins, 71 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped)
Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped)
George Ford – vice captain (Bath Rugby, 35 caps)
Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Unavailable for selection due to injury
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)
Sam Jones (Wasps)

England’s two-Test tour to Argentina
Estadio San Juan del Bicentenario, San Juan, Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 10th June
Estadio Brigadier General Estanislao Lopez, Santa Fe. Kick-off 16:15 (local time), Saturday 17th June

robbo277 wrote:From the England Rugby website, an updated squad for the Barbarians fixture:

Forwards (17)

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Rob Buchanan (Harlequins), Will Collier (Harlequins), Ben Curry (Sale Sharks), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Tom Ellis (Bath Rugby), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Jamal Ford-Robinson (Bristol), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Nick Schonert (Worcester Warriors), Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors), Will Spencer (Worcester Warriors), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons).

Backs (12)

Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Nathan Earle (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Mike Haley (Sale Sharks), Sam James (Sale Sharks), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Joe Marchant (Harlequins), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Ryan Mills (Worcester Warriors), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens), Marland Yarde (Harlequins).

Obviously Northampton, Wasps and Exeter players are unavailable, but I'm unsure why Solomona isn't on that list?

From that squad though, you'd probably assume a 23 looking something like:

Genge, Buchanan, Collier, Ewels, Isiekwe, Robshaw, Underhill, Beaumont.
Care, Ford, May, James, Marchant, Earle, Brown.
Singleton, Harrison, Ford-Robinson, T Curry, B Curry, Wigglesworth, Lozowski, Haley.

Leaving out:
Mark Wilson (flanker), Tom Ellis (lock/flanker), Nick Schonert (prop), Will Spencer (lock), Marland Yarde (wing), Ryan Mills (centre).

You have to think he'll give the starting spots to his Argentina tourists where possible.

To answer this point, he's injured and will miss the whole tour.

Deserved call-ups for Will Spencer, Ryan Mills and Mark Wilson. They have been excellent for their clubs this season and deserve that squad recognition with this many players unavailable.

Didn't realise solomona had picked up an injury. Bit of a blow when trying to tie him down as he seems changeable!

With Haskell now called up for the Lions tour in place of Billy v, who will replace Haskell?

king_carlos wrote:Deserved call-ups for Will Spencer, Ryan Mills and Mark Wilson. They have been excellent for their clubs this season and deserve that squad recognition with this many players unavailable.

Deserve is relatiove and Im glad you qualified that...Id rather phrase it as "bearing in mind the squad is now resembling an Anglo Welsh cup squad".

The tour is in danger of becoming a complete farce. Its also rough on recentl squad or capped players who are being overlooked.

With Haskell now called up for the Lions tour in place of Billy v, who will replace Haskell?

Armand would be a good call IMHO

rosbif wrote:With Haskell now called up for the Lions tour in place of Billy v, who will replace Haskell?

Armand would be  a good call     IMHO

I feel there was always a bit of slack in Eddie's squad when it came down to back row.

He picked his first choice flankers in Robshaw and Haskell and his best 8 available in Nathan Hughes. He also called in Sam Underhill, who he's wanted to look at for a while, and Tom Wood, as additional cover - and that last one doesn't fit in with the pattern of the rest of the squad selection. He then also picked two younger guys from left field as he did across the squad.

Jones can stills start Robshaw, Underhill and Hughes with Wood on the bench and have a test quality back row, although not a top one.

We've still got 6 back rowers going to Argentina (Curry x 2, Robshaw, Wood, Hughes, Underhill)

You'd have to think Wilson or Ellis from the squad for the Barbarians game would be kept in if they decided to replace Haskell properly

Theres also Mike Williams sitting around wondering what he did to offend Jones.

BamBam wrote:We've still got 6 back rowers going to Argentina (Curry x 2, Robshaw, Wood, Hughes, Underhill)

You'd have to think Wilson or Ellis from the squad for the Barbarians game would be kept in if they decided to replace Haskell properly

We've only got 3 locks as well, in Launchbury, Ewels and Isiekwe. Someone who could cover lock as well may be preferable (Beaumont?), but unless it was always Jones' plan to add people at this time, I'd say that he's not bothered about leaving his squad light on cover and just wants to focus on a core group.

Have to say I was a bit disappointed that Taylor was being LCD but the former was excellent on saturday. Top class. Taylor though recovering from injury didn't look up to speed.

Mark Wilson has been outstanding for about 3-4-5 seasons now not only this season.

He more than deserves this recognition. He also did that playing most of last season at lock due to injuries where once again he was outstanding.

Well done Mark...and well done Eddie for giving him a chance. He's obviously shown up well as usual in training.

RE Solomona: I hate to see players injured so I am sorry to hear he'll miss the tour......however I wont change my view that he shouldn't be going.

Incredible that Yarde gets into the England squad yet again.

I thought you loved try stats above all else for wingers? He certainly has a decent return for England.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I thought you loved try stats above all else for wingers? He certainly has a decent return for England.

Yes but it's not just international level that counts, his try scoring at club level is laughably woeful. Plus his defence is poor.

Form does matter. Numerous wingers performing better than him.

I know you are a big fan of Yarde. I think he's highly overrated. Mainly by England fans like yourself.

I'm not a fan of him. I think his defence is a bit suspect. Just wondered on the stats as they are probably the best of the current wingers at international level as you say. Probably the best stats for direct comparison though. But as you say plenty other things other that dry stats to judge.

no 7 & 1/2 so you are just arguing for the sake of arguing as usual?

7 tries in 11 caps spread over 4 years. Yarde's try scoring record at club level is poor hence why he's only had 11 caps.

Why not for once just say that you agree, hard I know but try some time.

I agree completely I wouldn't have him in the squad even given the missing players. Just wanted to test the water on your reasons. Better stats for country but not club gotcha.

Yarde can do a job although we have better. He's never really let anyone down for England and has some impressive games.

You can't use stats to defend one player then disregard them when it's not a player you like.

Yarde is ok and he'll be eager to impress, could always do worse.......Wade.

Piers Francis was knocked out by a swinging arm tackle in the Blues' match in Cape Town over the weekend so may need some time off on return-to-play protocols

beshocked wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I thought you loved try stats above all else for wingers? He certainly has a decent return for England.

Yes but it's not just international level that counts, his try scoring at club level is laughably woeful. Plus his defence is poor.

Form does matter. Numerous wingers performing better than him.

I know you are a big fan of Yarde. I think he's highly overrated. Mainly by England fans like yourself.

Surely it IS?

I don't give a monkeys if he doesn't score for Quins. Unless he's a falcons player, then all I care about another clubs player is that he plays top class for England.

Now i'll echo 7.5, I wouldn't have him in the squad....however his stats aren't horrific for England. So you cant slate the lad.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I thought you loved try stats above all else for wingers? He certainly has a decent return for England.

Yes but it's not just international level that counts, his try scoring at club level is laughably woeful. Plus his defence is poor.

Form does matter. Numerous wingers performing better than him.

I know you are a big fan of Yarde. I think he's highly overrated. Mainly by England fans like yourself.

Surely it IS?

I don't give a monkeys if he doesn't score for Quins. Unless he's a falcons player, then all I care about another clubs player is that he plays top class for England.

Now i'll echo 7.5, I wouldn't have him in the squad....however his stats aren't horrific for England. So you cant slate the lad.

Matt Banahans try scoring stats were pretty good for England for a while.

So were Chris Ashtons mind.

Yeah...and that's all that matters.

If players are performing at that level for England then it doesn't mater what they are doing below that unless your a fan of the club they play for.

Banahan was not used effectively enough by England and neither was Ashton.

And their performances obviously, can't pick a side on stats!

I'd have happily seen Ashton back involved but he's kind of dug his own grave with the ban and then deciding not to tour with the Saxons.

Yes performances matter for England aswell.

So the team for the Baa Baas...?? Possibly?

1 Ellis Genge
2 Rob Buchanan
3 Will Collier
4 Charlie Ewels
5 Will Spencer
6 Chris Robshaw (C)
7 Sam Underhill
8 Mark Wilson / Beaumont

9 Danny Care
10 George Ford
11 Nathan Earle
12 Sam James
13 Joe Marchant
14 Johnny May
15 Mike Brown

Unlikely to see Robshaw made skipper, as Care, Ford and Brown are the tour VCs

I just thought he was the experienced option for the baa baas game.

Of the three Care seems most likely to be captain of it wasn't Hartley.

So 6 proper England players of which 3 are regular starters.
They could brand a Saracens first 15 as England with as much legitimacy as that side.

Not saying that's the team Gooseberry...just my thoughts on what it could be for the Baa Baas game? Do you think its the likely team or near enough?

Gooseberry wrote:So 6 proper England players of which 3 are regular starters.
They could brand a Saracens first 15 as England with as much legitimacy as that side.

I think the Sarries 15 with EQ players would beat that side quite handily to be honest.

beshocked wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:So 6 proper England players of which 3 are regular starters.
They could brand a Saracens first 15 as England with as much legitimacy as that side.

I think the Sarries 15 with EQ players would beat that side quite handily to be honest.

Mako, George, Barrington, Itoje, Kruis, Fraser, Wray, Vunipola, Wigglesworth, Lozowski, Ashton, Farrell, Barritt, Ellery, Goode.

Probably.

No specialist TH Robbo

Du Plessis is EQP.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:No specialist TH Robbo

LondonTiger wrote:Du Plessis is EQP.

Barrington makes it because of his ability as a specialist changing room DJ, and ability to cover prop.

Beshocked will not approve.

Du Plessis is EQ.

Plus I'd pick Conlon instead of Fraser, Fraser is unfortunately permanently crocked it seems.

Robbo that's a horrible centre partnership, could do better.

Barritt-Tompkins. With Farrell at 10.

Plus I'd pick Earle instead of Ellery.

Our bench would be something like
Barrington
Spurling
Adam Hale (TBH don't know if he plays TH)
Isiekwe
Earl
Spencer
Lozowski
Ellery


Saracens are very strong at FH with Farrell,Lozowski and Malins as options.

Great English options.

Don't know enough about Ben Earl but he must be good to be in a competitive U20s backrow.

How do you think he compares as a prospect compared to the higher rated Underhill and Curry brothers?

beshocked wrote:Du Plessis is EQ.

Plus I'd pick Conlon instead of Fraser, Fraser is unfortunately permanently crocked it seems.

Robbo that's a horrible centre partnership, could do better.

Barritt-Tompkins. With Farrell at 10.

Plus I'd pick Earle instead of Ellery.

Our bench would be something like
Barrington
Spurling
Adam Hale (TBH don't know if he plays TH)
Isiekwe
Earl
Spencer
Lozowski
Ellery


Saracens are very strong at FH with Farrell,Lozowski and Malins as options.

Great English options.

Don't know enough about Ben Earl but he must be good to be in a competitive U20s backrow.

How do you think he compares as a prospect compared to the higher rated Underhill and Curry brothers?

Your team is probably stronger, I just went with names I know off hand.

I still think the team I picked could topple whoever England put out on Sunday, mainly because they'd marmalise the forwards, making the centre selection pretty moot. Because Robshaw's playing they'd keep it within 30, but it would be a pasting.

Were England able to pick Marler, Hartley, Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Robshaw, Haskell and Hughes as their pack to play Saracens, then you might have a game worth playing.

In answer to your back row question, the honest answer is I'm not sure. I've seen a limited amount of Underhill, even less of the Currys and probably have never seen Earl (if I have, I don't recall).

Hill and Marchant both ruled out of Argentina tour.

Dropping like flies

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/hill-and-marchant-ruled-out-argentina-tour/

Real shame about Joe Marchant.

Paul Hill has started 6 matches this season - bit worrying if that amount of rugby has caused a neck injury.

LondonTiger wrote:Real shame about Joe Marchant.

Paul Hill has started 6 matches this season - bit worrying if that amount of rugby has caused a neck injury.

Must be a training injury. Last game he played was vs Sarries and I don't remember anything happening to him.

Wow they really are dropping like flies.

Is it too late to downgrade the matches?

We're going to be short of 25 players at least, seems a bit odd to have full internationals in conjunction with the Lions tour at the best of times.

For those wondering, Underhill would be a very worthy starter on current form. He seems to do everything well.

But hammersmith...you know what everyone else will say,...we have the biggest playing population blah blah we should be able to cope with this...blah blah...

England ABS (Anyone But Saracens)

Marler, Hartley, Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Robshaw, Haskell, Hughes, Youngs, Ford, Daly, Te'o, Joseph, Nowell, Brown

Reps: LCD, Genge, Sinckler, Ewells, Wood, Care, Slade, Watson


Should have the beating of Sarries EQP:

Mako, George, Du Plessis, Itoje, Kruis, Wray, Conlon, Billy, Wigglesworth, Farrell, Earle, Barritt, Tompkins, Ellery, Goode (Ashton now a former Saracen)

Reps: Spurling, Barrington, ANO, Isiekwe, Fraser, Spencer, Lozowski, Gallagher.


However that Saracens line-up shoudl indeed beat the England team likely to play this weekend.


Looking at how the other semi finalists could line-up they all could (with Tigers 3/4s the weak link) win:

Mullan, Taylor, Cooper-Wooley, Launchbury, Symons, Haskell, Thompson, Hughes, Simpson, Cipriani, Wade, Eastmond, Daly, Bassett, Miller

Moon, LCD, Williams, Lees, Parling, Ewers, Armand, Waldrom, Townsend, Steenson, Short, Devoto, Slade, Woodburn, Nowell

Genge, Youngs, Cole, Kitchener, Barrow, Williams, Thacker, BOC, Youngs, Ford (or Burns), Thompstone, Manu, Tait, Brady, Worth

Paul Hill is a big blow with Cole and Sinckler away.

Could it offer a reprieve to Brookes?

Its such a shame Scotty Wilson is a sick note. He could have been perfect now.

GeordieFalcon wrote:But hammersmith...you know what everyone else will say,...we have the biggest playing population blah blah we should be able to cope with this...blah blah...

They would be right but I'm not seeing the benefit of these matches at all now, a largely experience side with a few of the younger guys would be ok but this isn't helping anyone.