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Ward vs Kovalev - Who've you got?

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Post by hazharrison on Fri 14 Apr 2017, 9:22 am

First topic message reminder :

AdamT wrote:I don't care about him calling out Floyd lol. He can't move up a division, but will move down to fight a smaller man.

You all cream yourselves over him, so yes that suggests you think he is great.

Who "creams themselves" over him? Do you have any examples of this gushing praise? Any articles claiming he's "top ten definitely" etc.?

Ward and Hopkins both called Floyd out, too. It's because they'd make a fortune to fight a guy who couldn't pop a balloon.


Last edited by hazharrison on Fri 14 Apr 2017, 9:23 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Mon 19 Jun 2017, 2:38 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Decider? It's 2-0.

Pedantic

Still questions to be answered imo

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 19 Jun 2017, 2:43 pm

It is fun watching you cry about it but the facts are Ward has won both fights deservedly so.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Mon 19 Jun 2017, 2:46 pm

He didn't win the first fight imo

I'd actually like to see the third fight in Russia I think

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Post by AdamT on Mon 19 Jun 2017, 2:47 pm

It's not a decider Herman lol

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Post by mobilemaster8 on Mon 19 Jun 2017, 3:02 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:It is fun watching you cry about it but the facts are Ward has won both fights deservedly so.

Not sure how you can state the second fight was won "deservedly" - he hit Kov with numerous below the belt shots.

Yes he won 2 fights - one was a close decision (I picked Ward by two rounds in first fight) - but he was losing this fight comfortably and resorted to punching illegally to win. No two ways about it.

Although i do agree that there shouldnt be a decider because facts tell us its 2-0 no matter how you win.


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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 19 Jun 2017, 3:06 pm

mobilemaster8 wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:It is fun watching you cry about it but the facts are Ward has won both fights deservedly so.

Not sure how you can state the second fight was won "deservedly" - he hit Kov with numerous below the belt shots.

Yes he won 2 fights - one was a close decision (I picked Ward by two rounds in first fight) - but he was losing this fight comfortably and resorted to punching illegally to win. No two ways about it.

Although i do agree that there shouldnt be a decider because facts tell us its 2-0 no matter how you win.


I can't agree with any of that to be honest, Kovalev crying like a little ***** seems to be blinding you, they were borderline shots that to me don't look low nor was Ward comfortably losing the fight. The big right hand won him the fight.

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Post by mobilemaster8 on Mon 19 Jun 2017, 3:26 pm

Each to their own hammer - dont think that shot would have landed or been as effective had he not been hit in the bollox 1 minute earlier. Then the 3 shots on the ropes were no where near the belt line. In my eyes.

To be fair, Kov seemed pretty sound in the post fight interview - I would have been absolutely fuming and demanded something to be looked at.

No doubt about it though, 1st fight was very close, 2nd fight was massively controversial.

But we move on now, hopefully see a cracking fight with Canelo vs GGG

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Post by Rodney on Mon 19 Jun 2017, 3:37 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
mobilemaster8 wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:It is fun watching you cry about it but the facts are Ward has won both fights deservedly so.

Not sure how you can state the second fight was won "deservedly" - he hit Kov with numerous below the belt shots.

Yes he won 2 fights - one was a close decision (I picked Ward by two rounds in first fight) - but he was losing this fight comfortably and resorted to punching illegally to win. No two ways about it.

Although i do agree that there shouldnt be a decider because facts tell us its 2-0 no matter how you win.


I can't agree with any of that to be honest, Kovalev crying like a little ***** seems to be blinding you, they were borderline shots that to me don't look low nor was Ward comfortably losing the fight. The big right hand won him the fight.

Borderline ? are you sure ? https://instagram.com/p/BVeEMg0l3VW/

one of the most ridiculous stoppages of the modern era, however I will say Ward looked in the ascendancy in a close fight up to that point, shame the ending wasn't definitive (again)

Cheers,
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Post by Herman Jaeger on Mon 19 Jun 2017, 4:54 pm

Like to see it changed to a no contest Kovalev was still able to defend himself never seen a weaker stoppage

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Post by mobilemaster8 on Mon 19 Jun 2017, 6:07 pm

Yeh completely agree Herman - just ran over and stopped it - no count - nothing - Kov was bent over on the ropes probably under the assumption that Weeks was stepping in regarding the 3 low blows.

Then it finished.

Was such a bizarre stoppage.

Whats worse was post fight with Kellerman - both watching replays of low blows stating how clean they were!

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 19 Jun 2017, 6:09 pm

Im not seeing these blatant low blows to be honest.

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Post by Happytravelling on Mon 19 Jun 2017, 7:15 pm

Hammer, if you didn't see the low blows in surprised you can see the keyboard to type.

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Mon 19 Jun 2017, 11:33 pm

That shot you can clearly see him double over off it and it's clearly low

Anyone who can argue with that is just arguing because they enjoy it

The commission came out and said it was a legal punch

That's how corrupt they are

Arguing with video evidence is just foolish

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 12:51 pm

Really hope that's it for Weeks now:

https://youtu.be/Lnpwf2pn9xM

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Post by AdamT on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 1:00 pm

Weeks was poor, but you really are like a dog with a bone.

Without the controversy, Ward was going to either finish him or school him. Least he has a little excuse.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 1:20 pm

Forget what Ward was or wasn't going to do this is about Weeks and the vast majority of reasonable-minded fans think it was an horrendous stoppage

It's not like I'm putting forward a minority argument so maybe it's you and hammer who are the dogs

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Post by AdamT on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 1:21 pm

Hammer is far from my favourite poster, but he is right about one thing. It's 2-0 and Ward looked like he was going for a good finish.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 1:34 pm

Kovalev got rocked got on his bike took no more big head shots would have survived the round taken a rest and come out refreshed for next round OR that punch could have had some lasting effect and Ward could have gone on to win on points or by stoppage

Highly presumptuous to say definitively Ward was going to do this or that

I supposed you would have stopped the Joshua Klitschko fight after Joshua was knocked down because at that stage it looked for all the world like Klitschko was going to win?

This is not about what was going to happen this is about the stoppage. It was a shocker don't let your blind love for Ward blind your vision

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Post by AdamT on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 1:35 pm

I don't love Ward. You seem to love Kov though!

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 1:39 pm

I just like a fair fight and hate bent refs. That is all

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Post by AdamT on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 1:40 pm

That's fair enough I suppose. I didn't like the stoppage much either.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 1:43 pm

Can we all agree then that Weeks must never be allowed to officiate again? That's really all I want to see come out of this

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 1:45 pm

We wouldn't have any refs left if we dropped them after one mistake.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 1:47 pm

Good day, gentlemen

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Post by Rodney on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 1:55 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Im not seeing these blatant low blows to be honest.

clown
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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 1:59 pm

Rodney wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:Im not seeing these blatant low blows to be honest.

clown

Prat.

Cheers Hammer

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 2:01 pm

It's true though you have to be a major tit if you didn't see any low blows

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Post by Rodney on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 2:19 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:It's true though you have to be a major tit if you didn't see any low blows

^ this, you're showed video evidence and you still can't admit it. A clear agenda you have.
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Post by Herman Jaeger on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 3:15 pm

They wouldn't give him a fair fight because of that t-shirt seemed to take it very personally

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Post by AdamT on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 3:23 pm

People might hate Ward and the finish was wrong, but the guy is doing great things in modern boxing. He is certainly p4p number 1!

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 4:46 pm

Weeks is a liar couldn't see the punches

Kovalev deserves another shot to get his belts back

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Post by hazharrison on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 8:31 pm

AdamT wrote:People might hate Ward and the finish was wrong, but the guy is doing great things in modern boxing. He is certainly p4p number 1!

He's got some excellent names on his record, however, some of his biggest wins have been controversial (both Kovalev fights, and to a lesser extent, Kessler). He also peed away his prime years.

He's a great fighter, just about the best fighter in the world (Lomachenko still looks the best all round fighter purely from an eyeball test point of view) and he's taken on the likes of Froch and Kovalev in their primes (and best weights).

Some excellent work, however, he's largely had home advantage, and been given tremendous leeway by referees. Despite being one of the dirtiest fighters in recent years, I don't recall him being given as much as a warning (which isn't his problem - he's doing whatever it takes to win).

Some don't give him enough credit, while the ridiculous praise heaped upon him by the likes of Max Kellerman goes way too far the other way.

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Post by AdamT on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 8:57 pm

Lomachenko has the most talent, probably followed by Rigondeaux.

I'll probably get stick for this, but I think Calzaghe would of beat Ward. Too fast of feet and much too busy!

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Post by milkyboy on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 9:41 pm

I think that's a pretty fair sssessment haz. It's a results business and ultimately what he has achieved will always matter more than the caveats. I guess he's a guy who finds a way. Even those who think he lost  kov 1 would probably acknowledge he won the second half of the fight. Not always pretty but pretty effective.

Adam, I think calzaghe is a guy you can make a case for against ward. He'd bring a different set of problems and a 12 round work ethic. He threw in bunches too which is generally a good match up against defensive/counter-punchers.

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Post by Mr Bounce on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 10:33 pm

You can't argue with what Ward has achieved. He's cleaned out 2 divisions with some pretty useful fighters in them. However, he's as marketable as a bucket of pork scratchings at a bar Mitzvah. He's dull to watch, has the personality of beige paint and won't fight anywhere but the US. He also likes to load the fights to suit his own needs (referees anyone??).

He is a pretty special fighter, but boxing is all about entertainment. Ward doesn't entertain - he simply wins, be it in dominating fashion (Dawson), easily outpointing the next best in the division (Froch), by dull UDs (Barrera, Bika, Abraham, Brand) or by controversy (both Kovalev fights, Kessler). He doesn't excite. This is why I wanted Kovalev to win - because he's so much more exciting as a fighter. Don't get me wrong - Ward has SERIOUS amounts of talent. However, a Ward fight does not get the pulses racing like a matchup featuring punchers. If we're honest, we all love the knockout and the way it's delivered - we want to see someone stopped in their tracks by a superb body or headshot, not by a couple of cracks to the gentleman's veg and hoping the ref's on your side.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 11:04 pm

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks Weeks is bent:

https://youtu.be/PmBxgCISoc8

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Tue 20 Jun 2017, 11:28 pm

You really are like a dog with a bone, it's been relentless since the first fight.

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Post by hazharrison on Wed 21 Jun 2017, 6:00 am

milkyboy wrote:I think that's a pretty fair sssessment haz. It's a results business and ultimately what he has achieved will always matter more than the caveats. I guess he's a guy who finds a way. Even those who think he lost  kov 1 would probably acknowledge he won the second half of the fight. Not always pretty but pretty effective.

Adam, I think calzaghe is a guy you can make a case for against ward. He'd bring a different set of problems and a 12 round work ethic. He threw in bunches too which is generally a good match up against defensive/counter-punchers.

I thought he stymied Kovalev during the middle rounds of the first fight - through sheer bloody mindedness and will to win more than anything (still think he looked pretty awful by his own high standards).

Also had him down after six last week but he was back on song and has that brilliant quality of being able to change up his style/a gear or two mid-fight. His brawny, rough and tumble, win at all costs method reminded me of Holyfield last week. That mental strength he has is also rare. Ali, Hopkins, Holyfield all had it - the refuse to lose thing Tyson once talked about having (though Hopkins showed character flaws at times with his feigning injury and checking out of fights).

I really hope they can make the Stevenson fight. Unless he can jump into the Cruiser tourney with Gassiev, Usyk, Breidis, Glowacki etc. - that would be absolutely sensational.

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Wed 21 Jun 2017, 8:04 am

Herman Jaeger wrote:I just like a fair fight and hate bent refs. That is all

Shouldn't watch these sorts of fights if you like fair ones

I'm not so sure about GGG vs Canelo, GGG is going to have to ice him to win, no way he gets a decision in a remotely close fight

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Post by milkyboy on Wed 21 Jun 2017, 10:57 am

hazharrison wrote:
milkyboy wrote:I think that's a pretty fair sssessment haz. It's a results business and ultimately what he has achieved will always matter more than the caveats. I guess he's a guy who finds a way. Even those who think he lost  kov 1 would probably acknowledge he won the second half of the fight. Not always pretty but pretty effective.

Adam, I think calzaghe is a guy you can make a case for against ward. He'd bring a different set of problems and a 12 round work ethic. He threw in bunches too which is generally a good match up against defensive/counter-punchers.

I thought he stymied Kovalev during the middle rounds of the first fight - through sheer bloody mindedness and will to win more than anything (still think he looked pretty awful by his own high standards).

Also had him down after six last week but he was back on song and has that brilliant quality of being able to change up his style/a gear or two mid-fight. His brawny, rough and tumble, win at all costs method reminded me of Holyfield last week. That mental strength he has is also rare. Ali, Hopkins, Holyfield all had it - the refuse to lose thing Tyson once talked about having (though Hopkins showed character flaws at times with his feigning injury and checking out of fights).


I really hope they can make the Stevenson fight. Unless he can jump into the Cruiser tourney with Gassiev, Usyk, Breidis, Glowacki etc. - that would be absolutely sensational.

I had him behind on saturday too through 7, again there were a lot of close rounds, but the mindset seemed different from the first fight, he wasn't looking to hold and seemed by the mid rounds he was looking to take the fight to Kovalev... pre-planned or a reflection that he was down on the cards who knows. Kov seemed to start the mid rounds rounds fresh and finish them weary but rounds 6 and 7 were still pretty even. It was a good competitive close fight throughout really, but ward definitely imposed his will. I wonder how much for kovalev that feeling that the other guy is coming on strong at a time you're feeling the pace, was dispiriting for him when he got in trouble in the 8th...or if it was just the punches to the nads that did it!

On the low blows, I listened to ward's post fight interview last night, (kellerman was cringeworthy) and ward was (unasked) describing his bodyshots as 'borderline' as he watched it back. Weekes identified the beltline as being ok at the start of the fight... and most of ward's 'low blows' were on or around it. The clear exception was the last one, which clearly landed on the b of the hublot on kov's trunks. Deliberate? Kov was bent double at the time, so I doubt it... just trying to get the stoppage to the body. Whichever, the stoppage in itself was too early and kov should have been given time to recover. Shame we were denied a fair and natural conclusion to the fight.

The Stevenson fight would be great, but i won't hold my breath... Ward seemed serious about cruiser/heavy... I think he likes the idea of doing a jones... providing they can find the right guy... like jones did.

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Post by Rodney on Wed 21 Jun 2017, 11:11 am

I'm hoping Ward sticks around at Light Heavy some great tussles, Stevenson, Beterbiev and Gvozdyk would all be terrific matchups, pretty much echo Milky's thoughts on Saturdays fight. For me Ward is the best we've had over the last 15 years or so with all his big wins against guys in near their prime , maybes needs to create a profile TBE or something to get some attention.

Cheers
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Post by milkyboy on Wed 21 Jun 2017, 11:13 am

BoxingFan88 wrote:
Herman Jaeger wrote:I just like a fair fight and hate bent refs. That is all

Shouldn't watch these sorts of fights if you like fair ones

I'm not so sure about GGG vs Canelo, GGG is going to have to ice him to win, no way he gets a decision in a remotely close fight

probably true - canelo has had the benefit of the doubt of the judges a fair few times, but i don't subscribe to the general view that eastern europeans can't get a decision in america. Golovkin himself got a fairly tight one against jacobs. I think it more depends on the network cash cow than the nationality, and that typically means mexican/US fighters for fights in the states like it means brit fighters in britain, germans in germany etc.

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Post by AdamT on Wed 21 Jun 2017, 11:23 am

Rodney wrote:I'm hoping Ward sticks around at Light Heavy some great tussles, Stevenson, Beterbiev and Gvozdyk would all be terrific matchups, pretty much echo Milky's thoughts on Saturdays fight. For me Ward is the best we've had over the last 15 years or so with all his big wins against guys in near their prime , maybes needs to create a profile TBE or something to get some attention.

Cheers

You rate Ward higher than Floyd and Manny??

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Post by Rodney on Wed 21 Jun 2017, 11:29 am

AdamT wrote:
Rodney wrote:I'm hoping Ward sticks around at Light Heavy some great tussles, Stevenson, Beterbiev and Gvozdyk would all be terrific matchups, pretty much echo Milky's thoughts on Saturdays fight. For me Ward is the best we've had over the last 15 years or so with all his big wins against guys in near their prime , maybes needs to create a profile TBE or something to get some attention.

Cheers

You rate Ward higher than Floyd and Manny??

Yes I do the Kovalev wins are a better P4P win than anything Floyd or Manny has on their record. Plus he has championship substance and depth now, a win over Stevenson would almost cement this.
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Post by AdamT on Wed 21 Jun 2017, 11:36 am

Fair enough. I personally don't agree with that, but it's your opinion.

Don't think Kovalev ranks as high as beating, Marquez, Barrera and Morales.

Floyd Destroyed Corrales when he was epected to lose by some. It's easy to pi55 over that win now, but it was huge at the time. He also still holds a win over his greatest rival. Manny had seen better days, but so had Floyd. Both were also without a doubt the top two Welters at the time.

Sorry I forgot to mention the absolute pasting Manny gave Cotto. Floyd beat a decent Cotto himself.

I rate Ward, but not as high as those two. Each to their own.

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Post by mobilemaster8 on Wed 21 Jun 2017, 1:10 pm

Ward headbutted himself to victory against Kessler. Looked good vs Froch. Battered Paul Smith and outfought Barrera. Dawson was a decent victory but was down in weight so always "questions".

Beat Abraham (but most world class operators will)

Alexander Brand??? Edwin Rodriguez? These are fighters he is going in with in his prime.

2 x controversial decisions against his best opponent......

Cant have him above Manny and Floyd - no way. Not even close.

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Post by AdamT on Wed 21 Jun 2017, 1:10 pm

mobilemaster8 wrote:Ward headbutted himself to victory against Kessler. Looked good vs Froch. Battered Paul Smith and outfought Barrera. Dawson was a decent victory but was down in weight so always "questions".

Beat Abraham (but most world class operators will)

Alexander Brand??? Edwin Rodriguez?  These are fighters he is going in with in his prime.

2 x controversial decisions against his best opponent......

Cant have him above Manny and Floyd - no way. Not even close.

Manny and Floyd both have better resumes!

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Wed 21 Jun 2017, 3:04 pm

Floyd and Manny are in a different league to Ward

They are in a different league to everyone

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Post by AdamT on Wed 21 Jun 2017, 3:10 pm

That is true. For ability Rigondeau and Lomachenko are the closest!

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Post by BoxingFan88 on Wed 21 Jun 2017, 5:21 pm

Maybe

See how many weight classes they can move through and beat up much bigger men

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