Why did it go so badly for the Conservatives?

by Muscular-mouse Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:26 am

First topic message reminder :

So the election is over and what was predicted to be an easy election just 8 weeks ago where the tories had a 20 point lead which would have resulted in a 100 seat majority has in fact turned into a horrible night for the tories where they actually LOST their majority.

So what went wrong? Was it the election debates that May appeared on? Was it May refusing to debate Corbyn 1v1? was it the dementia tax? or the U-turns? What was it that made her lose a 20 point lead in the space of 7 weeks?

Or was it just that Corbyn ran a better campaign?

by **ShahenshahG** Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:34 am

Pr4wn wrote:Any more insults and the hammer is coming out.

Not in northern Ireland he isn't.

by TRUSSMAN66 Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:40 am

Is abortion illegal there yet ??

by **navyblueshorts** Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:23 am

ShahenshahG wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Any more insults and the hammer is coming out.

Not in northern Ireland he isn't.

by Muscular-mouse Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:12 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:South Gloucestershire by election seat last night..

Con won 48 percent
Labour 34 percent..

Last time..

Con won 46 percent
Labour 15 percent.......

Don't expect a GE anytime soon.

Things don't look good for the conervatives. It is crazy that in the space of 2 monthsthey have gone from getting a landslide victory to not being able to win a majority to now probably being behind labour if another GE was called.

May brought it upon herself, she still had over 3 years to run as PM WITH a majority but her gamble has really backfired.

by Muscular-mouse Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:48 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
Ent wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
Ent wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
Ent wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
Samo wrote:An extra £2 a sheet of cladding would have completely fire proofed it. Can we atleast acknowledge that this wasnt bought because of the Tory Austerity culture we're in?

Poor people died because the rich didnt like the way their flats looked. Its as simple as that.

Erm...nope...

Grenfell tower was built in the 1970s. Why not ask why the Labour government from 1997 - 2010 didn't look into housing regs and take action.

Nothing to do with "austerity culture".

Also nothing to do with rich people not liking the way the flats looked either. You can gentrify buildings in lots of ways, using properly spec'd materials, that won't turn them into deathtraps.

Those people died because of the original poor design of the flats, the shoddy refurbishment that was carried out and the failure of the council / building management group to address the residents' repeated concerns over fire safety.

If you want to make a political statement about it, you could say those people died because they were poor / working class and therefore ignored. I feel this is at least partially true.

Agree with a lot of that, though hard to say they were ignored when the property management board has a majority of residents on it.

It is a tragedy in which the state (including at least 3 successive Governments) failed these people, I have little time for anyone trying to make political capital from it.

Wasn't the issue the cladding which spread the fire. The person to blame is who authorised the cladding. If the cladding was something done under the tories which I believe it was then was it due to budget cuts that a cheaper option was chosen.

The reason why May is getting the blame is because her party's ideology is all about austerity and cuts and inevitably cuts lead to corners being taken when it comes to safety.

May might nt have had any involvement in this catastrophe but the reason the residents are shouting murderer at her when she makes visits is because she agrees with the policy of austerity and budget cuts.

That is pretty much a baseless statement, until the enquiry we will not know the cause of the fire or all the contributing factors to the deaths.

it is not baseless, I have seen with my own eyes the video footage of the fire spreading because of the cladding. I think everyone knows that spread the fire.

It is baseless, you do not know what caused the fire to spread nor what failures contributed to so many deaths - the cladding should not have caught fire if the isolation design was effective.

If everyone knows - no need for an enquiry then?

Latest today is that Kings have been treating survivors for cyanide poisoning and the release from burning plastics in the insulation boards (not cladding) may have contributed or caused some of the deaths. But you knew it was the cladding so we shouldn't bother looking at stuff like that, or the fire regulations, or how the refurbishment was carried out etc etc

its not baseless though, it is an opinion based on what I have witnessed.

If I view a video of a man getting shot in the head, technically under your rules me saying the shot to his head killed him is baseless because I have not seen any medical evidence to confirm what I am saying is true.
An expert in multi-storey building fires then?

It is called common sense. When you watch a video of a fire outside a building spreading rapidly via the outside cladding then common sense dictates that the cladding is allowing the fire to spread.

Initial investigations back me up with police reports and local councils who are removing similer cladding from other buildings due to it not passing fire safety tests

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40380584

by TRUSSMAN66 Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:09 pm

Panel base/ST

Labour 46
Con 41

Approval rating...

Corbyn +17
May -17

Our lefty friend went down a treat at Glastonbury apparently....Plenty of photo-ops.....1.3m followers on his twitter......Jumping on every bandwagon going....and getting acclaimed Director Ken Loach to shoot commercials for the party... The "We demand"..commercial was one of the best I've seen and I have seen plenty..(LBJs 10 second countdown to nuclear war vs Goldwater being the best)

Left wing politics is scary..But organised left wing politics is terrifying.

The dishevelled Geography teacher is becoming a powerhouse..

by Samo Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:43 pm

If Labour get their act together about Brexit they'll romp the next GE. Theresa May clinging onto power is the worst thing for the Tories. But I dont see a huge queue for the job despite a few of them heralding Brexit as the best thing ever.

by **navyblueshorts** Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:51 pm

Muscular-mouse wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
Ent wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
Ent wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
Ent wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
Samo wrote:An extra £2 a sheet of cladding would have completely fire proofed it. Can we atleast acknowledge that this wasnt bought because of the Tory Austerity culture we're in?

Poor people died because the rich didnt like the way their flats looked. Its as simple as that.

Erm...nope...

Grenfell tower was built in the 1970s. Why not ask why the Labour government from 1997 - 2010 didn't look into housing regs and take action.

Nothing to do with "austerity culture".

Also nothing to do with rich people not liking the way the flats looked either. You can gentrify buildings in lots of ways, using properly spec'd materials, that won't turn them into deathtraps.

Those people died because of the original poor design of the flats, the shoddy refurbishment that was carried out and the failure of the council / building management group to address the residents' repeated concerns over fire safety.

If you want to make a political statement about it, you could say those people died because they were poor / working class and therefore ignored. I feel this is at least partially true.

Agree with a lot of that, though hard to say they were ignored when the property management board has a majority of residents on it.

It is a tragedy in which the state (including at least 3 successive Governments) failed these people, I have little time for anyone trying to make political capital from it.

Wasn't the issue the cladding which spread the fire. The person to blame is who authorised the cladding. If the cladding was something done under the tories which I believe it was then was it due to budget cuts that a cheaper option was chosen.

The reason why May is getting the blame is because her party's ideology is all about austerity and cuts and inevitably cuts lead to corners being taken when it comes to safety.

May might nt have had any involvement in this catastrophe but the reason the residents are shouting murderer at her when she makes visits is because she agrees with the policy of austerity and budget cuts.

That is pretty much a baseless statement, until the enquiry we will not know the cause of the fire or all the contributing factors to the deaths.

it is not baseless, I have seen with my own eyes the video footage of the fire spreading because of the cladding. I think everyone knows that spread the fire.

It is baseless, you do not know what caused the fire to spread nor what failures contributed to so many deaths - the cladding should not have caught fire if the isolation design was effective.

If everyone knows - no need for an enquiry then?

Latest today is that Kings have been treating survivors for cyanide poisoning and the release from burning plastics in the insulation boards (not cladding) may have contributed or caused some of the deaths. But you knew it was the cladding so we shouldn't bother looking at stuff like that, or the fire regulations, or how the refurbishment was carried out etc etc

its not baseless though, it is an opinion based on what I have witnessed.

If I view a video of a man getting shot in the head, technically under your rules me saying the shot to his head killed him is baseless because I have not seen any medical evidence to confirm what I am saying is true.
An expert in multi-storey building fires then?

It is called common sense. When you watch a video of a fire outside a building spreading rapidly via the outside cladding then common sense dictates that the cladding is allowing the fire to spread.

Initial investigations back me up with police reports and local councils who are removing similer cladding from other buildings due to it not passing fire safety tests

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40380584

"Common sense" is not evidence and is frequently proven to be nonsense. I guess you think magicians really 'do' magic? I give up...

by **navyblueshorts** Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:55 pm

Samo wrote:If Labour get their act together about Brexit they'll romp the next GE. Theresa May clinging onto power is the worst thing for the Tories. But I dont see a huge queue for the job despite a few of them heralding Brexit as the best thing ever.

No, they won't. They might well win, but romp? The Tories are utterly disorganised, which plays to Corbyn nicely, but if they get focused on how Corbyn proposes to fund his Nirvana, I don't think he'll have anywhere near such a smooth ride as just now.

by Muscular-mouse Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:58 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
Ent wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
Ent wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
Ent wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
Samo wrote:An extra £2 a sheet of cladding would have completely fire proofed it. Can we atleast acknowledge that this wasnt bought because of the Tory Austerity culture we're in?

Poor people died because the rich didnt like the way their flats looked. Its as simple as that.

Erm...nope...

Grenfell tower was built in the 1970s. Why not ask why the Labour government from 1997 - 2010 didn't look into housing regs and take action.

Nothing to do with "austerity culture".

Also nothing to do with rich people not liking the way the flats looked either. You can gentrify buildings in lots of ways, using properly spec'd materials, that won't turn them into deathtraps.

Those people died because of the original poor design of the flats, the shoddy refurbishment that was carried out and the failure of the council / building management group to address the residents' repeated concerns over fire safety.

If you want to make a political statement about it, you could say those people died because they were poor / working class and therefore ignored. I feel this is at least partially true.

Agree with a lot of that, though hard to say they were ignored when the property management board has a majority of residents on it.

It is a tragedy in which the state (including at least 3 successive Governments) failed these people, I have little time for anyone trying to make political capital from it.

Wasn't the issue the cladding which spread the fire. The person to blame is who authorised the cladding. If the cladding was something done under the tories which I believe it was then was it due to budget cuts that a cheaper option was chosen.

The reason why May is getting the blame is because her party's ideology is all about austerity and cuts and inevitably cuts lead to corners being taken when it comes to safety.

May might nt have had any involvement in this catastrophe but the reason the residents are shouting murderer at her when she makes visits is because she agrees with the policy of austerity and budget cuts.

That is pretty much a baseless statement, until the enquiry we will not know the cause of the fire or all the contributing factors to the deaths.

it is not baseless, I have seen with my own eyes the video footage of the fire spreading because of the cladding. I think everyone knows that spread the fire.

It is baseless, you do not know what caused the fire to spread nor what failures contributed to so many deaths - the cladding should not have caught fire if the isolation design was effective.

If everyone knows - no need for an enquiry then?

Latest today is that Kings have been treating survivors for cyanide poisoning and the release from burning plastics in the insulation boards (not cladding) may have contributed or caused some of the deaths. But you knew it was the cladding so we shouldn't bother looking at stuff like that, or the fire regulations, or how the refurbishment was carried out etc etc

its not baseless though, it is an opinion based on what I have witnessed.

If I view a video of a man getting shot in the head, technically under your rules me saying the shot to his head killed him is baseless because I have not seen any medical evidence to confirm what I am saying is true.
An expert in multi-storey building fires then?

It is called common sense. When you watch a video of a fire outside a building spreading rapidly via the outside cladding then common sense dictates that the cladding is allowing the fire to spread.

Initial investigations back me up with police reports and local councils who are removing similer cladding from other buildings due to it not passing fire safety tests

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40380584
"Common sense" is not evidence and is frequently proven to be nonsense. I guess you think magicians really 'do' magic? I give up...

Well my common sense must be better than yours because the police and fire services have all stated that the fire spread via the cladding due to the cladding failing fire safety tests.

by **navyblueshorts** Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:17 am

Muscular-mouse wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
Ent wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
Ent wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
Ent wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
Samo wrote:An extra £2 a sheet of cladding would have completely fire proofed it. Can we atleast acknowledge that this wasnt bought because of the Tory Austerity culture we're in?

Poor people died because the rich didnt like the way their flats looked. Its as simple as that.

Erm...nope...

Grenfell tower was built in the 1970s. Why not ask why the Labour government from 1997 - 2010 didn't look into housing regs and take action.

Nothing to do with "austerity culture".

Also nothing to do with rich people not liking the way the flats looked either. You can gentrify buildings in lots of ways, using properly spec'd materials, that won't turn them into deathtraps.

Those people died because of the original poor design of the flats, the shoddy refurbishment that was carried out and the failure of the council / building management group to address the residents' repeated concerns over fire safety.

If you want to make a political statement about it, you could say those people died because they were poor / working class and therefore ignored. I feel this is at least partially true.

Agree with a lot of that, though hard to say they were ignored when the property management board has a majority of residents on it.

It is a tragedy in which the state (including at least 3 successive Governments) failed these people, I have little time for anyone trying to make political capital from it.

Wasn't the issue the cladding which spread the fire. The person to blame is who authorised the cladding. If the cladding was something done under the tories which I believe it was then was it due to budget cuts that a cheaper option was chosen.

The reason why May is getting the blame is because her party's ideology is all about austerity and cuts and inevitably cuts lead to corners being taken when it comes to safety.

May might nt have had any involvement in this catastrophe but the reason the residents are shouting murderer at her when she makes visits is because she agrees with the policy of austerity and budget cuts.

That is pretty much a baseless statement, until the enquiry we will not know the cause of the fire or all the contributing factors to the deaths.

it is not baseless, I have seen with my own eyes the video footage of the fire spreading because of the cladding. I think everyone knows that spread the fire.

It is baseless, you do not know what caused the fire to spread nor what failures contributed to so many deaths - the cladding should not have caught fire if the isolation design was effective.

If everyone knows - no need for an enquiry then?

Latest today is that Kings have been treating survivors for cyanide poisoning and the release from burning plastics in the insulation boards (not cladding) may have contributed or caused some of the deaths. But you knew it was the cladding so we shouldn't bother looking at stuff like that, or the fire regulations, or how the refurbishment was carried out etc etc

its not baseless though, it is an opinion based on what I have witnessed.

If I view a video of a man getting shot in the head, technically under your rules me saying the shot to his head killed him is baseless because I have not seen any medical evidence to confirm what I am saying is true.
An expert in multi-storey building fires then?

It is called common sense. When you watch a video of a fire outside a building spreading rapidly via the outside cladding then common sense dictates that the cladding is allowing the fire to spread.

Initial investigations back me up with police reports and local councils who are removing similer cladding from other buildings due to it not passing fire safety tests

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40380584
"Common sense" is not evidence and is frequently proven to be nonsense. I guess you think magicians really 'do' magic? I give up...

Well my common sense must be better than yours because the police and fire services have all stated that the fire spread via the cladding due to the cladding failing fire safety tests.

You don't get it do you? I tend not to reply on 'common sense'; I kind of like science and evidence. The fact they say that after your guess doesn't make your guess any more sensible. The point is, common sense would dictate we all await the outcome of the investigations by the experts and listen to what those experts actually conclude. Anything else is just guesswork/assumption/Chinese whispers/arrogance/etc.

As TRUSS might say - moving on...

by Samo Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:30 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:If Labour get their act together about Brexit they'll romp the next GE. Theresa May clinging onto power is the worst thing for the Tories. But I dont see a huge queue for the job despite a few of them heralding Brexit as the best thing ever.
No, they won't. They might well win, but romp? The Tories are utterly disorganised, which plays to Corbyn nicely, but if they get focused on how Corbyn proposes to fund his Nirvana, I don't think he'll have anywhere near such a smooth ride as just now.

Its not hard to focus on it, it was in black and white in the manifesto.

by Muscular-mouse Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:33 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
Ent wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
Ent wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
Ent wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
Samo wrote:An extra £2 a sheet of cladding would have completely fire proofed it. Can we atleast acknowledge that this wasnt bought because of the Tory Austerity culture we're in?

Poor people died because the rich didnt like the way their flats looked. Its as simple as that.

Erm...nope...

Grenfell tower was built in the 1970s. Why not ask why the Labour government from 1997 - 2010 didn't look into housing regs and take action.

Nothing to do with "austerity culture".

Also nothing to do with rich people not liking the way the flats looked either. You can gentrify buildings in lots of ways, using properly spec'd materials, that won't turn them into deathtraps.

Those people died because of the original poor design of the flats, the shoddy refurbishment that was carried out and the failure of the council / building management group to address the residents' repeated concerns over fire safety.

If you want to make a political statement about it, you could say those people died because they were poor / working class and therefore ignored. I feel this is at least partially true.

Agree with a lot of that, though hard to say they were ignored when the property management board has a majority of residents on it.

It is a tragedy in which the state (including at least 3 successive Governments) failed these people, I have little time for anyone trying to make political capital from it.

Wasn't the issue the cladding which spread the fire. The person to blame is who authorised the cladding. If the cladding was something done under the tories which I believe it was then was it due to budget cuts that a cheaper option was chosen.

The reason why May is getting the blame is because her party's ideology is all about austerity and cuts and inevitably cuts lead to corners being taken when it comes to safety.

May might nt have had any involvement in this catastrophe but the reason the residents are shouting murderer at her when she makes visits is because she agrees with the policy of austerity and budget cuts.

That is pretty much a baseless statement, until the enquiry we will not know the cause of the fire or all the contributing factors to the deaths.

it is not baseless, I have seen with my own eyes the video footage of the fire spreading because of the cladding. I think everyone knows that spread the fire.

It is baseless, you do not know what caused the fire to spread nor what failures contributed to so many deaths - the cladding should not have caught fire if the isolation design was effective.

If everyone knows - no need for an enquiry then?

Latest today is that Kings have been treating survivors for cyanide poisoning and the release from burning plastics in the insulation boards (not cladding) may have contributed or caused some of the deaths. But you knew it was the cladding so we shouldn't bother looking at stuff like that, or the fire regulations, or how the refurbishment was carried out etc etc

its not baseless though, it is an opinion based on what I have witnessed.

If I view a video of a man getting shot in the head, technically under your rules me saying the shot to his head killed him is baseless because I have not seen any medical evidence to confirm what I am saying is true.
An expert in multi-storey building fires then?

It is called common sense. When you watch a video of a fire outside a building spreading rapidly via the outside cladding then common sense dictates that the cladding is allowing the fire to spread.

Initial investigations back me up with police reports and local councils who are removing similer cladding from other buildings due to it not passing fire safety tests

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40380584
"Common sense" is not evidence and is frequently proven to be nonsense. I guess you think magicians really 'do' magic? I give up...

Well my common sense must be better than yours because the police and fire services have all stated that the fire spread via the cladding due to the cladding failing fire safety tests.
You don't get it do you? I tend not to reply on 'common sense'; I kind of like science and evidence. The fact they say that after your guess doesn't make your guess any more sensible. The point is, common sense would dictate we all await the outcome of the investigations by the experts and listen to what those experts actually conclude. Anything else is just guesswork/assumption/Chinese whispers/arrogance/etc.

As TRUSS might say - moving on...

It was commons ense though, you don't need to wait for a detailed report to confirm things you have witnessed with your own eyes, and guess what? I was right...

I would also add that the residents who escaped the fire gave statements that they saw the fire spreading via the cladding and the day after the event it came out that the cladding was not up to fire safety standards so its pretty obvious how the fire spread.

by Muscular-mouse Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:36 am

Samo wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:If Labour get their act together about Brexit they'll romp the next GE. Theresa May clinging onto power is the worst thing for the Tories. But I dont see a huge queue for the job despite a few of them heralding Brexit as the best thing ever.
No, they won't. They might well win, but romp? The Tories are utterly disorganised, which plays to Corbyn nicely, but if they get focused on how Corbyn proposes to fund his Nirvana, I don't think he'll have anywhere near such a smooth ride as just now.

Its not hard to focus on it, it was in black and white in the manifesto.

Yep I agree, his manifesto was fully costed.

I would also add that people didn't vote just because of the promises of free education for example or free school meals for kids, they voted because he offered a different type of politics where the ordinary person was finally going to be treated with respect and dignity that they deserve.
Maybe he wouldn't be able to implement his manifesto, maybe he would but the issue is that he is putting ordinary people first instead of the super rich.

by Hammersmith harrier Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:00 am

You can't actually cost a manifesto in the midst of Brexit but Labour voters seem to cling to that as if it matters.

by Samo Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:16 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:You can't actually cost a manifesto in the midst of Brexit but Labour voters seem to cling to that as if it matters.

Sorry mate I dont debate WUM's.

by Hammersmith harrier Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:46 am

Samo wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:You can't actually cost a manifesto in the midst of Brexit but Labour voters seem to cling to that as if it matters.

Sorry mate I dont debate WUM's.

It's all a bit beyond you Samo so probably for the best.

by Muscular-mouse Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:48 am

Samo wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:You can't actually cost a manifesto in the midst of Brexit but Labour voters seem to cling to that as if it matters.

Sorry mate I dont debate WUM's.

If everyone just ignored him he would soon crawl away into his hole.

by Hammersmith harrier Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:51 am

Highly unlikely as my opinion bothers you all so much.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:13 am

What a difference a month makes..

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:25 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:If Labour get their act together about Brexit they'll romp the next GE. Theresa May clinging onto power is the worst thing for the Tories. But I dont see a huge queue for the job despite a few of them heralding Brexit as the best thing ever.
No, they won't. They might well win, but romp? The Tories are utterly disorganised, which plays to Corbyn nicely, but if they get focused on how Corbyn proposes to fund his Nirvana, I don't think he'll have anywhere near such a smooth ride as just now.

I agree but the Tories will have to choose wisely...These kids are registered..Evidence shows getting people registered is harder than getting them out.

Social media has arrived...Without it..May has a 100 majority.

by **navyblueshorts** Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:41 pm

Samo wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:If Labour get their act together about Brexit they'll romp the next GE. Theresa May clinging onto power is the worst thing for the Tories. But I dont see a huge queue for the job despite a few of them heralding Brexit as the best thing ever.
No, they won't. They might well win, but romp? The Tories are utterly disorganised, which plays to Corbyn nicely, but if they get focused on how Corbyn proposes to fund his Nirvana, I don't think he'll have anywhere near such a smooth ride as just now.

Its not hard to focus on it, it was in black and white in the manifesto.

Quite. Did you not read the bit where I said I thought the Tories were utterly disorganised?

by **navyblueshorts** Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:44 pm

Muscular-mouse wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
Ent wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
Ent wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
Ent wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
Samo wrote:An extra £2 a sheet of cladding would have completely fire proofed it. Can we atleast acknowledge that this wasnt bought because of the Tory Austerity culture we're in?

Poor people died because the rich didnt like the way their flats looked. Its as simple as that.

Erm...nope...

Grenfell tower was built in the 1970s. Why not ask why the Labour government from 1997 - 2010 didn't look into housing regs and take action.

Nothing to do with "austerity culture".

Also nothing to do with rich people not liking the way the flats looked either. You can gentrify buildings in lots of ways, using properly spec'd materials, that won't turn them into deathtraps.

Those people died because of the original poor design of the flats, the shoddy refurbishment that was carried out and the failure of the council / building management group to address the residents' repeated concerns over fire safety.

If you want to make a political statement about it, you could say those people died because they were poor / working class and therefore ignored. I feel this is at least partially true.

Agree with a lot of that, though hard to say they were ignored when the property management board has a majority of residents on it.

It is a tragedy in which the state (including at least 3 successive Governments) failed these people, I have little time for anyone trying to make political capital from it.

Wasn't the issue the cladding which spread the fire. The person to blame is who authorised the cladding. If the cladding was something done under the tories which I believe it was then was it due to budget cuts that a cheaper option was chosen.

The reason why May is getting the blame is because her party's ideology is all about austerity and cuts and inevitably cuts lead to corners being taken when it comes to safety.

May might nt have had any involvement in this catastrophe but the reason the residents are shouting murderer at her when she makes visits is because she agrees with the policy of austerity and budget cuts.

That is pretty much a baseless statement, until the enquiry we will not know the cause of the fire or all the contributing factors to the deaths.

it is not baseless, I have seen with my own eyes the video footage of the fire spreading because of the cladding. I think everyone knows that spread the fire.

It is baseless, you do not know what caused the fire to spread nor what failures contributed to so many deaths - the cladding should not have caught fire if the isolation design was effective.

If everyone knows - no need for an enquiry then?

Latest today is that Kings have been treating survivors for cyanide poisoning and the release from burning plastics in the insulation boards (not cladding) may have contributed or caused some of the deaths. But you knew it was the cladding so we shouldn't bother looking at stuff like that, or the fire regulations, or how the refurbishment was carried out etc etc

its not baseless though, it is an opinion based on what I have witnessed.

If I view a video of a man getting shot in the head, technically under your rules me saying the shot to his head killed him is baseless because I have not seen any medical evidence to confirm what I am saying is true.
An expert in multi-storey building fires then?

It is called common sense. When you watch a video of a fire outside a building spreading rapidly via the outside cladding then common sense dictates that the cladding is allowing the fire to spread.

Initial investigations back me up with police reports and local councils who are removing similer cladding from other buildings due to it not passing fire safety tests

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40380584
"Common sense" is not evidence and is frequently proven to be nonsense. I guess you think magicians really 'do' magic? I give up...

Well my common sense must be better than yours because the police and fire services have all stated that the fire spread via the cladding due to the cladding failing fire safety tests.
You don't get it do you? I tend not to reply on 'common sense'; I kind of like science and evidence. The fact they say that after your guess doesn't make your guess any more sensible. The point is, common sense would dictate we all await the outcome of the investigations by the experts and listen to what those experts actually conclude. Anything else is just guesswork/assumption/Chinese whispers/arrogance/etc.

As TRUSS might say - moving on...

It was commons ense though, you don't need to wait for a detailed report to confirm things you have witnessed with your own eyes, and guess what? I was right...

I would also add that the residents who escaped the fire gave statements that they saw the fire spreading via the cladding and the day after the event it came out that the cladding was not up to fire safety standards so its pretty obvious how the fire spread.

Yup, confirmation that you simply don't get it. No point in continuing with this...

by **navyblueshorts** Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:48 pm

Muscular-mouse wrote:
Samo wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:If Labour get their act together about Brexit they'll romp the next GE. Theresa May clinging onto power is the worst thing for the Tories. But I dont see a huge queue for the job despite a few of them heralding Brexit as the best thing ever.
No, they won't. They might well win, but romp? The Tories are utterly disorganised, which plays to Corbyn nicely, but if they get focused on how Corbyn proposes to fund his Nirvana, I don't think he'll have anywhere near such a smooth ride as just now.

Its not hard to focus on it, it was in black and white in the manifesto.

Yep I agree, his manifesto was fully costed.

I would also add that people didn't vote just because of the promises of free education for example or free school meals for kids, they voted because he offered a different type of politics where the ordinary person was finally going to be treated with respect and dignity that they deserve.
Maybe he wouldn't be able to implement his manifesto, maybe he would but the issue is that he is putting ordinary people first instead of the super rich.

No, it wasn't. Costed, yes. Fully? Accurately? No. Hence, Nirvana.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/may/26/conservative-labour-tax-spending-plans-ifs-general-election-manifesto

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2017/05/26/your-guide-to-how-the-ifs-dismantled-the-two-parties-plans

Anyway, Labour didn't actually win this time around. Let's see what happens if/when this Hung Parliament collapses...

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:08 pm

Manifestos are only important as regards the vision and direction of the party......No one really believes Labour can bring in a £10 minimum wage or that it can honor most pledges but it shows where the Party's sympathies lie.....

It was a good manifesto in the way that they knew the only hope was to get the disenchanted and the reluctant voters out...

No doubts the polls which had the Tories 20 points ahead were right..........Because May added 3m Tory votes to Cameron's win in 2015.........

I made a post a month ago that Corbyn's only chance was to stir the crap storm...promise everything...Do 3 rallies a day and hammer facebook etc to take the media out of the equation.....Because the UK is a center ground country and there aren't enough votes with the regular voters.........

Not that I thought it would work as it did...........obviously helped by the awful inclusion of Fox hunting and a dementia tax that really wasn't explained...Hampered also by the fact I imagine the GE was a spontaneous decision with little planning.......24 points ahead in one poll so who can blame them..

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:39 pm

Looks like a billion is the DUP price for keeping this out of her depth lady in number 10..

by Hammersmith harrier Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:05 pm

It's worth it for keeping Corbyn away from number 10.

by Samo Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:19 pm

So there is a magic money tree after all. Its just a shame they cant seem to find it when the NHS, Police and Fire Services are begging for more funding. It appears to only bloom when May needs to pay off far right terrorists to cling to power.

by Hammersmith harrier Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:21 pm

Samo wrote:So there is a magic money tree after all. Its just a shame they cant seem to find it when the NHS, Police and Fire Services are begging for more funding. It appears to only bloom when May needs to pay off far right terrorists to cling to power.

Haha you amuse me, I'm guessing you're about 18/19.

by Samo Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:24 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
Samo wrote:So there is a magic money tree after all. Its just a shame they cant seem to find it when the NHS, Police and Fire Services are begging for more funding. It appears to only bloom when May needs to pay off far right terrorists to cling to power.

Haha you amuse me, I'm guessing you're about 18/19.

Sorry mate I dont debate WUM's

by Hammersmith harrier Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:26 pm

Samo wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:
Samo wrote:So there is a magic money tree after all. Its just a shame they cant seem to find it when the NHS, Police and Fire Services are begging for more funding. It appears to only bloom when May needs to pay off far right terrorists to cling to power.

Haha you amuse me, I'm guessing you're about 18/19.

Sorry mate I dont debate WUM's

Unable to debate you mean, it's ok though because clearly your level of education is pitiful.

by Scottrf Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:28 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Unable to debate you mean, it's ok though because clearly your level of education is pitiful.

Well, the conservatives have been in charge of education for most of his important school years if he's 18/19 Whistle

by Samo Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:29 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
Samo wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:
Samo wrote:So there is a magic money tree after all. Its just a shame they cant seem to find it when the NHS, Police and Fire Services are begging for more funding. It appears to only bloom when May needs to pay off far right terrorists to cling to power.

Haha you amuse me, I'm guessing you're about 18/19.

Sorry mate I dont debate WUM's

Unable to debate you mean, it's ok though because clearly your level of education is pitiful.

Sorry mate I dont debate WUM's

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:01 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:It's worth it for keeping Corbyn away from number 10.

Thought there were no magic money trees ??

by **Pr4wn** Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:54 am

So the DUP get a billion quid and the Queen gets an 8% pay rise.

Looks like there was a magic money tree after all.

by Samo Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:50 am

Pr4wn wrote:So the DUP get a billion quid and the Queen gets an 8% pay rise.

Looks like there was a magic money tree after all.

Its almost as if austerity is a political ideology and not an economic necessity after all. And people still vote for this lie.

by **navyblueshorts** Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:07 pm

Samo wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:So the DUP get a billion quid and the Queen gets an 8% pay rise.

Looks like there was a magic money tree after all.

Its almost as if austerity is a political ideology and not an economic necessity after all. And people still vote for this lie.

Clearly some don't understand that the Queen's (i.e. one person) increase represents a tiny amount nationwide - the perception is another thing entirely. The DUP £billion I won't comment on as I think that deal stinks, regardless of affordability.

by Ent Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:28 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:So the DUP get a billion quid and the Queen gets an 8% pay rise.

Looks like there was a magic money tree after all.

Its almost as if austerity is a political ideology and not an economic necessity after all. And people still vote for this lie.
Clearly some don't understand that the Queen's (i.e. one person) increase represents a tiny amount nationwide - the perception is another thing entirely. The DUP £billion I won't comment on as I think that deal stinks, regardless of affordability.

1 billion represents 0.13% of the budget - hardly a magical amount to try and find.

But these are modern times and post-truth is what matters, not facts.

by TRUSSMAN66 Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:11 pm

Ent wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:So the DUP get a billion quid and the Queen gets an 8% pay rise.

Looks like there was a magic money tree after all.

Its almost as if austerity is a political ideology and not an economic necessity after all. And people still vote for this lie.
Clearly some don't understand that the Queen's (i.e. one person) increase represents a tiny amount nationwide - the perception is another thing entirely. The DUP £billion I won't comment on as I think that deal stinks, regardless of affordability.

1 billion represents 0.13% of the budget - hardly a magical amount to try and find.

But these are modern times and post-truth is what matters, not facts.

You bothered to write this crap..

Beyond belief..

by Hammersmith harrier Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:02 am

Ent wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:So the DUP get a billion quid and the Queen gets an 8% pay rise.

Looks like there was a magic money tree after all.

Its almost as if austerity is a political ideology and not an economic necessity after all. And people still vote for this lie.
Clearly some don't understand that the Queen's (i.e. one person) increase represents a tiny amount nationwide - the perception is another thing entirely. The DUP £billion I won't comment on as I think that deal stinks, regardless of affordability.

1 billion represents 0.13% of the budget - hardly a magical amount to try and find.

But these are modern times and post-truth is what matters, not facts.

It just highlights that people voting for Labour have absolutely no understanding of economics but I'm not really surprised, it also shows that they are in fact selfish, they want more spending but only if it benefits them.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:13 am

Moving on.. Rolling Eyes

by Hammersmith harrier Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:15 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Moving on..

I have to tolerate your constant pro left ramblings.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:21 am

I wish I was right wing like you so I could be smart enough to put Fox hunting and the dementia tax in a manifesto....Losing 22 points off a 24 point lead.

But unfortunately I'm center left and thick...

by Hammersmith harrier Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:22 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I wish I was right wing like you so I could be smart enough to put Fox hunting and the dementia tax in a manifesto....Losing 22 points off a 24 point lead.

But unfortunately I'm center left and thick...

You said it Truss, after all Labour supporters think they won the election.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:25 am

Let us not argue...Rest assured when I do post ramblings I'll continue to post charts and statistics to back them up.

Feel free to follow suit.. thumbsup

by Hammersmith harrier Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:36 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Let us not argue...Rest assured when I do post ramblings I'll continue to post charts and statistics to back them up.

Feel free to follow suit..

Feel free to carry on thinking that, after all £1billion is a money tree.

by Ent Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:54 am

Just to be clear I am centre left and support new labour ideals.

Both conservative and Labour manifestos were poor and the electorate had poor options to choose from.

However - the labour manifesto was an absolute fantasy.

by **Pr4wn** Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:06 am

Ent wrote:Just to be clear I am centre left and support new labour ideals.

Both conservative and Labour manifestos were poor and the electorate had poor options to choose from.

However - the labour manifesto was an absolute fantasy.

No more of a fantasy than the Tory manifesto, the economic premise was just different.

Also, while a billion quid may not be much to you, especially when you compared it to the entire budget, which does nobody any favours, it is a lot of money. This is a billion pounds that was found, seemingly out of thin air, when the rich had their taxes cut and the public sector are earning less than they were in 2008. Homelessness has doubled since the Tories were in government and food bank use is at a record high. Now inflation is rising along with the wealth gap.

That's the point with this figure. Everyone knows that, compared with the entire economy, it's a relatively small figure, but that's not the point.

by Hammersmith harrier Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:08 am

It is entirely the point, it just doesn't suit your agenda.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:10 am

Pr4wn wrote:
Ent wrote:Just to be clear I am centre left and support new labour ideals.

Both conservative and Labour manifestos were poor and the electorate had poor options to choose from.

However - the labour manifesto was an absolute fantasy.

No more of a fantasy than the Tory manifesto, the economic premise was just different.

Also, while a billion quid may not be much to you, especially when you compared it to the entire budget, which does nobody any favours, it is a lot of money. This is a billion pounds that was found, seemingly out of thin air, when the rich had their taxes cut and the public sector are earning less than they were in 2008. Homelessness has doubled since the Tories were in government and food bank use is at a record high. Now inflation is rising along with the wealth gap.

That's the point with this figure. Everyone knows that, compared with the entire economy, it's a relatively small figure, but that's not the point.

The point is they keep telling everybody there is no money and yet they can just chuck out a billion when it means them staying in Government....

"No magic money trees"...............

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