NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June

by **George Carlin** Tue 20 Jun 2017, 8:35 pm

First topic message reminder :

NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June - Page 10 All_bl10

NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June - Page 10 Lions_12

NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS
24 June 2017
KO: 19:35 NZST (8.35am BST)
Eden Park, Auckland

Live on [Sky Sports HD]

Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
ARs: [tbc]
TMO: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

38 Played 38
29 Won 6
3 Drawn 3
6 Lost 29
634 Points 345

B. Recent Form

9 July 2005
Eden Park, Auckland
38 – 19 to New Zealand

2 July 2005
Westpac Stadium, Wellington
48 – 18 to New Zealand

25 June 2005
Lancaster Park, Christchurch
21 – 3 to New Zealand

3 July 1993
Eden Park, Auckland
30 – 13 to New Zealand

26 June 1993
Athletic Park, Wellington
7 – 20 to British & Irish Lions

12 June 1993
Lancaster Park, Christchurch
20 – 18 to New Zealand

16 July 1983
Eden Park, Auckland
38 – 6 to New Zealand

2 July 1983
Carisbrook, Dunedin
15 – 8 to New Zealand

18 June 1983
Athletic Park (Wellington), Wellington
9 – 0 to New Zealand

4 June 1983
Lancaster Park, Christchurch
16 – 12 to New Zealand

C. TEAMS:

NEW ZEALAND
NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June - Page 10 Kirean10

NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June - Page 10 Kirean10

01. Joe Moody (25)
02. Codie Taylor (16)
03. Owen Franks (91)
04. Brodie Retallick (61)
05. Samuel Whitelock (85)
06. Jerome Kaino (78)
07. Sam Cane (41)
08. Kieran Read (97)

09. Aaron Smith (59)
10. Beauden Barrett (50)
11. Rieko Ioane (2)
12. Sonny Bill Williams (34)
13. Ryan Crotty (26)
14. Israel Dagg (62)
15. Ben Smith (61)

16. Nathan Harris (5)
17. Wyatt Crockett (59)
18. Charlie Faumuina (47)
19. Scott Barrett (5)
20. Ardie Savea (13)
21. TJ Perenara (30)
22. Aaron Cruden (47) / Lima Sopoaga (7)
23. Anton Lienert-Brown (10)

BRITISH & IRISH LIONS
NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June - Page 10 Pom10

NEW ZEALAND v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS, 24 June - Page 10 Pom10

15. Liam Williams – Scarlets, Wales, #833
14. Anthony Watson – Bath Rugby, England, #816
13. Jonathan Davies – Scarlets, Wales, #778
12. Ben Te’o – Worcester Warriors, England, #815
11. Elliot Daly – Wasps, England, #822
10. Owen Farrell – Saracens, England, #780
09. Conor Murray – Munster, Ireland, #790

01. Mako Vunipola – Saracens, England, #787
02. Jamie George – Saracens, England, #819
03. Tadhg Furlong – Leinster, Ireland, #818
04. Alun Wyn Jones – Ospreys, Wales, #761
05. George Kruis – Saracens, England, #817
06. Peter O’Mahony (capt) – Munster, Ireland, #832
07. Sean O’Brien – Leinster, Ireland, #796
08. Taulupe Faletau – Bath Rugby, Wales, #779

16. Ken Owens – Scarlets, Wales, #829
17. Jack McGrath – Leinster, Ireland, #827
18. Kyle Sinckler – Harlequins, England, #814
19. Maro Itoje – Saracens, England, #825
20. Sam Warburton – Cardiff Blues, Wales, #800
21. Rhys Webb – Ospreys, Wales, #820
22. Johnny Sexton – Leinster, Ireland, #791
23. Leigh Halfpenny – Toulon, Wales, #775

by Heaf Sat 24 Jun 2017, 11:40 am

Exiledinborders wrote:
Heaf wrote:For the record I think he's poor whoever he refs ... and I wouldn't bank on a French ref giving us anything
NH refs tend to stop players clearing out from the side which SH refs tend to allow. Having said that unless we make major changes to the back row it won't do the Lions much good.

Maybe someone should tell the SH refs it's against the laws then Smile

by The Great Aukster Sat 24 Jun 2017, 11:40 am

Hope the Lions don't bring in Best, because if he has one bad throw he is vilified. Owens looked just as wonky from the line today, but both are way better than Codie Taylor who was shocking (Harris too).
Of course the ABs typically turn a weakness into a strength by taking quick throws even if the receiver is covered as it doesn't risk losing the ball in the set-piece and keeps the tempo up in the game.

by eirebilly Sat 24 Jun 2017, 11:42 am

TightHEAD wrote:No not all the refs fault but he seemed to give the benefit of the doubt to the all blacks but blowing up straight away for Lions and not allowing advantage, example Teo knock on when it hit his shoulder and the Lions had a run in, should have just played on and reviewed it later, Read knock on results in a try, it hit his thumb.

You have some impressive eyes then if you were at the game and saw that... I could barely see it after numerous slow motion replays and even then it looked like it came off Murrays boot...

The pass he threw to set up the attack was simply magical.

by milkyboy Sat 24 Jun 2017, 11:48 am

Both sides were offside a lot. Ref didn't impact on this game particularly for me. As for sh/nh refs. You know who the ref is going to be, you know what he jets go and what he pings for. You adjust your game accordingly and okay the ref. Obviously it's easier said than done when you have a lifetime's habits to break, in the heat of the moment... but If the all blacks played the ref better today, then fair play.

by Guest Sat 24 Jun 2017, 11:52 am

That try that Williams started was magical. More of that heads up play, which they did but couldn't finish, is the ticket. It just seems like the Lions can't play like that for 80. That first half from the Lions was pretty impressive.

by Hood83 Sat 24 Jun 2017, 11:53 am

milkyboy wrote:Both sides were offside a lot. Ref didn't impact on this game particularly for me. As for sh/nh refs. You know who the ref is going to be, you know what he jets go and what he pings for. You adjust your game accordingly and okay the ref. Obviously it's easier said than done when you have a lifetime's habits to break, in the heat of the moment... but If the all blacks played the ref better today, then fair play.

Yeah, this really.

by milkyboy Sat 24 Jun 2017, 11:58 am

Lions were good for the first 5/10minutes and last 5 minutes of the first half... the rest was energy sapping rearguard action. Before the o'brien try it felt like we were looking at a cricket score.

by mid_gen Sat 24 Jun 2017, 12:02 pm

Have to revise the strategy of box-kicking possession back to the ABs constantly, despite Murray being very good at it, it wasn't working for us.

Bench needs to be reworked to bring on some impact players up front Lawes, Stander, Marler, Sinckler....and some pace, JJ?

by fa0019 Sat 24 Jun 2017, 12:05 pm

The game sort of went the way I expected. Its the way Gatland sets up all his sides, tough to beat but little upstairs to break teams down bar brute force. The try was magnificent but in reality it was a broken play and sheer brilliance by Williams rather a justification of the lions attacking platform.
If you cant ruffle NZ in the forwards say goodbye to your chances. Parity isn't enough. Yet there was very little attacking orchestration from Farrell bar the dummy first receiver and getting Davies into space. I mean that was it bar sending it down Israel Daggs throat every other play.

Question - the Lions is meant to be the best of the home nations and in theory be far superior to any of the 4 sides which make up the lions yet would Ireland and England have done better than the lions today?

I'd say almost certainly yes and a full strength England side with Jones at the helm would have taken this side all the way. Whereas EJ tends to make good players into a great team I'd say Gatland tends to make great players into a good team. Against a weak AUS side in 13 it was just about enough... its never going to be enough here.

This is Gatland's 12 match vs NZ. Want the stats?

12 losses, only 1 within a score at the end , 42 tries conceded, 12 scored... an average points diff of 20. We shouldn't expect miracles.

And if so its not the players as on paper this side is better than Ireland, England, Scotland or Wales. The problem is the strategy not the players, the odd mistake or loss of concentration... you're not going to win many matches if you expect to make zero mistakes in 80 mins to stand a chance.

Why does Wales have the worst record vs. the 3N since Gatland took over compared to Scotland, Wales, Ireland or England? 3 wins in 35 (all at home) compared to Scotlands 4 in 17 (2 away), Irelands 7 in 24 (3 away) and England's 10 in 32 (4 away). Wales during this time have had easily equally good sides but against the best of the SH they tend to lose because SH teams can cope with the way Gatland sets up his teams.

Its not just familiarity, its something else and with the players he's had available to set up his side as such is really a far greater waste than any other tour in the professional era. In 2013 he faced one of the weakest AUS sides in history... one that had lost to Samoa and Scotland at home in the same world cup cycle, beating them wasn't comparable to beat the world champs in 97 nor the 89 pretenders to the throne.

Not sure where he can go into the 2nd test. Maybe swap Vunipola and Furlong for McGrath & Cole and as much as I'd hate to say it... Stander to bring some ball carrying at 8. It Can Itoje and Jones play together as Kruis struggled in the loose (albeit ran the lineout very well). To be honest I can't say any player on the field had any major howlers to a point where any change will make a vast improvement.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 24 Jun 2017, 12:07 pm

The lions really struggled with the breakdown in the first half. Much better to be the team in possession with peyper. Plenty to work on but we can still win this tour.

by emack2 Sat 24 Jun 2017, 12:08 pm

The Lions selected and tried to play a more attacking style than the template
we`ve seen to date as predicted. Whistle

The illusion they would dominate up front was exposed as wishful speaking
great test both sides

The analysts will be working hard for both sides to fix the flaws,realistically
from the Lions point of view this was the one to win:erm:
Crotty/Smith were both borderline to complete the match anyway,next
test Dagg at 15,SBW/ALB midfield.plus return of the bus.
Third test if its 2-0 some young guns get a run Hug

by No 7&1/2 Sat 24 Jun 2017, 12:11 pm

Certainly dominated at the lineout. Not sure anyone predicted a dominant scrum containing vunipola whereas nz s looked much stronger with franks off the pitch when they won and lost a pen.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 24 Jun 2017, 12:15 pm

Think its important to say as well. Really enjoyed that. Good test match from both teams.

by fa0019 Sat 24 Jun 2017, 12:16 pm

I don't think you can say the lions were attacking. They had 1 broken field break (the try) and 2 passes down the line to Davies which made yards and threatened the try line.

3 chances doesn't equate attacking play. Pick attacking players and sure Willliams, Daly and Watson will take chances in any strategy, conditions or scenario.

Bar the dummy 2nd receiver backline play, the garry owen and the crash ball what did the lions ever do?

Its club rugby to NZ.

by BamBam Sat 24 Jun 2017, 12:17 pm

Wild party tonight in Bournemouth, NZ I'm sure

Which of the islands is that on out of interest?

by Guest Sat 24 Jun 2017, 12:18 pm

fa0019 wrote:A full strength England side with Jones at the helm would have taken this side all the way

by Heaf Sat 24 Jun 2017, 12:21 pm

Some interesting points there fa ... Wales certainly have and have had some great players that I'm not sure Gats has been making the most of for a while now ...

by Hood83 Sat 24 Jun 2017, 12:23 pm

mid_gen wrote:Have to revise the strategy of box-kicking possession back to the ABs constantly, despite Murray being very good at it, it wasn't working for us.

Bench needs to be reworked to bring on some impact players up front Lawes, Stander, Marler, Sinckler....and some pace, JJ?

Problem is I get the impression it's used as much as a way to give our forwards a breather. Fitness and intensity still seem to be a problem for us, incredibly.

by milkyboy Sat 24 Jun 2017, 12:26 pm

fa0019 wrote:I don't think you can say the lions were attacking. They had 1 broken field break (the try) and 2 passes down the line to Davies which made yards and threatened the try line.

3 chances doesn't equate attacking play. Pick attacking players and sure Willliams, Daly and Watson will take chances in any strategy, conditions or scenario.

Bar the dummy 2nd receiver backline play, the garry owen and the crash ball what did the lions ever do?

Its club rugby to NZ.

What did their backline do with twice the ball? We were feeding off scraps. Think it was the least of our problems today.

One coaching comment. When watching I questioned the sense in why we would change hooker with an attacking line out 5 yards out. No time for a guy coming on cold to make his first throw in my opinion. Sure enough it was picked off. Brainless clock based substitution in my view. Crucial time of the game. Small margins in test rugby.

by milkyboy Sat 24 Jun 2017, 12:30 pm

Hood83 wrote:
mid_gen wrote:Have to revise the strategy of box-kicking possession back to the ABs constantly, despite Murray being very good at it, it wasn't working for us.

Bench needs to be reworked to bring on some impact players up front Lawes, Stander, Marler, Sinckler....and some pace, JJ?

Problem is I get the impression it's used as much as a way to give our forwards a breather. Fitness and intensity still seem to be a problem for us, incredibly.

Yeh, I'm struggling for a better logic. If you're only kicking the ball 10 yards forward you sure has hell need to be winning it back more often than not. This was the main difference I felt. They advanced the ball with driving runs and recycled before the defence is set to get more 'easy' yards. We recycle slow, and the yards are all hard. Biggest single difference between the sides in my view.

by fa0019 Sat 24 Jun 2017, 12:32 pm

ebop wrote:
fa0019 wrote:A full strength England side with Jones at the helm would have taken this side all the way

Its probably true mind. Jones is probably the best coach in the world and reacts in games the way a coach should. 19 wins in 20 thus far. 2 titles, 1 whitewash series win vs AUS in AUS. Its not to be frowned at.

He makes good players into a great team. He did it with AUS in 03, SA in 07, Japan in 15 and England now.

The lions were lucky to walk away with a <20 point deficit today... against a side that had played once together in the last 7 months. Yet the players weren't really at fault as when can you say a player let the team down today?

You can say we must have zero penalties conceded, zero knock ons, zero dropped high balls, zero turnovers, 6 out of 6 kicks at goal.... if that is your minimum you will lose everytime.

by TightHEAD Sat 24 Jun 2017, 12:32 pm

All blacks of old would have put 45points on us.

The way the game broke up at times for the Lions we would have benefitted with having JJ on the field. Although the both Centeres did play well to be fair.

Sexton or Farrell not both at the same time for me.

by international198 Sat 24 Jun 2017, 12:42 pm

I think the Lions were lucky to have their first try awarded by the referee. Ben Te'o clearly blocked Sonny Bill Williams from tackling Liam Williams. Did anyone else spot this?

by fa0019 Sat 24 Jun 2017, 12:44 pm

milkyboy wrote:
fa0019 wrote:I don't think you can say the lions were attacking. They had 1 broken field break (the try) and 2 passes down the line to Davies which made yards and threatened the try line.

3 chances doesn't equate attacking play. Pick attacking players and sure Willliams, Daly and Watson will take chances in any strategy, conditions or scenario.

Bar the dummy 2nd receiver backline play, the garry owen and the crash ball what did the lions ever do?

Its club rugby to NZ.

What did their backline do with twice the ball? We were feeding off scraps. Think it was the least of our problems today.

One coaching comment. When watching I questioned the sense in why we would change hooker with an attacking line out 5 yards out. No time for a guy coming on cold to make his first throw in my opinion. Sure enough it was picked off. Brainless clock based substitution in my view. Crucial time of the game. Small margins in test rugby.

The problem is its predictable. You know whats going to happen.

Davies had the lions share of the attacking runs.. why because the dummy 2nd receiver play is the only one they had ball in hand and where does that ball always end up... in the OC's hands in space. You got to do better than that. When did the 3/4 drop onto the midfield shoulder. NZ rushed up, where was the chip chase to counter. If you don't mix it up you won't leave a team guessing... and that is where the gaps appear. Its not about being fancy, its about keeping the opposition guessing. Gatland has as much strategic nous as Douglas Haig did in WWI. Fact - his attack coach had the worst attack of the home nations in the 6N.

The lions defended a lot of the time, that is true but they had a lot of ball, a lot of carries but 3 metre carries in the trenches is a 5 man effort. SH teams don't waste energy on such meager gains and if they do they do as a platform, not as a strategy. I mean there was one moment Kruis picked and drove on his own into 4 kiwis with no support.... If you have no support don't even think about it. Jones would had trashed him for that (as Gatland probably will too).

by No 7&1/2 Sat 24 Jun 2017, 12:44 pm

Nz were lucky with their first as the pass went foward. Small things ref was pretty consistent.

by international198 Sat 24 Jun 2017, 12:46 pm

ebop wrote:That try that Williams started was magical. More of that heads up play, which they did but couldn't finish, is the ticket. It just seems like the Lions can't play like that for 80. That first half from the Lions was pretty impressive.

It shouldn't have been awarded. Ben Te'o blocked Sonny Bill Williams from tackling Liam Williams. And then, a few minutes later, he nearly broke his neck by driving him head first into the ground. Te'o should have been yellow carded for that, IMO.

by Cyril Sat 24 Jun 2017, 12:49 pm

Final score really flattered the Lions there. NZ will be much more clinical next week. As feared Billy V sorely missed on terms of power and ability to tie on defenders. Murray needs to stop kicking so much (Garland plan) and distribution again poor. Agree with fa that England's personnel and coaching/tactics/cohesion would give NZ a better game.

AWJ poor again, but he wasn't alone.

This was the one the Lions had to win, but sadly not even close. Next two weeks could get ugly. Leo Cullen ugly.

by Guest Sat 24 Jun 2017, 12:49 pm

fa0019 wrote:
ebop wrote:
fa0019 wrote:A full strength England side with Jones at the helm would have taken this side all the way
Jones is probably the best coach in the world

Mate, I have to give you some more tumbleweed

by fa0019 Sat 24 Jun 2017, 12:53 pm

Hood83 wrote:
mid_gen wrote:Have to revise the strategy of box-kicking possession back to the ABs constantly, despite Murray being very good at it, it wasn't working for us.

Bench needs to be reworked to bring on some impact players up front Lawes, Stander, Marler, Sinckler....and some pace, JJ?

Problem is I get the impression it's used as much as a way to give our forwards a breather. Fitness and intensity still seem to be a problem for us, incredibly.

Its the way the NH set up their game and also in part to the conditions. If the game is played 3/4 of the time in cold, wet conditions then you build players to be slower, force fewer passes and linebreaks are more difficult to maintain... so you have bigger backlines, more suited 10 yard smashes rather than clean breaks.

Look at junior rugby for instance and the JRWC... NH players are men and look like their training regime is 30% rugby, 70% deadlift. England physically dominate other sides but whereas size can win, the smaller SH players are playing an offloading game, one handed plays, tracking channels rather than standing behind the carrier for the expected ruck clearance. It breeds better players in the long term for the test arena.

by international198 Sat 24 Jun 2017, 12:53 pm

New Zealand didn't get out of first gear today whereas the Lions were at top gear for 80 minutes. Imagine what they'll do to the Lions if the go to second, third, fourth, fifth and top gear.

by compelling and rich Sat 24 Jun 2017, 12:54 pm

international198 wrote:
ebop wrote:That try that Williams started was magical. More of that heads up play, which they did but couldn't finish, is the ticket. It just seems like the Lions can't play like that for 80. That first half from the Lions was pretty impressive.

It shouldn't have been awarded. Ben Te'o blocked Sonny Bill Williams from tackling Liam Williams. And then, a few minutes later, he nearly broke his neck by driving him head first into the ground. Te'o should have been yellow carded for that, IMO.

nothing wrong with the tackle, he picked him up and put him on his side (nowhere his neck). understand under new rules and how they've clamped down on it but thats a tackle that used to be applauded. can understand the pen even though i disagree, but never a yellow

by No 7&1/2 Sat 24 Jun 2017, 12:56 pm

Ah yes international is a wum.

by fa0019 Sat 24 Jun 2017, 12:56 pm

ebop wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
ebop wrote:
fa0019 wrote:A full strength England side with Jones at the helm would have taken this side all the way
Jones is probably the best coach in the world
Mate, I have to give you some more tumbleweed

best coach in the world is not necessarily the one with the best team. What did Hansen do outside of coaching NZ? Getting wales to 4th place in the 6N's?

Hell Mitchell had a 80% win rate with NZ, won 2 3N titles and thoroughly smashed all comers bar when he faced a certain maverick with a significantly lesser side in 03.

Even PDivvy would have won the world cup with NZ.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 24 Jun 2017, 12:57 pm

And fa proving he didn't watch the u20s.

by fa0019 Sat 24 Jun 2017, 12:58 pm

compelling and rich wrote:
international198 wrote:
ebop wrote:That try that Williams started was magical. More of that heads up play, which they did but couldn't finish, is the ticket. It just seems like the Lions can't play like that for 80. That first half from the Lions was pretty impressive.

It shouldn't have been awarded. Ben Te'o blocked Sonny Bill Williams from tackling Liam Williams. And then, a few minutes later, he nearly broke his neck by driving him head first into the ground. Te'o should have been yellow carded for that, IMO.

nothing wrong with the tackle, he picked him up and put him on his side (nowhere his neck). understand under new rules and how they've clamped down on it but thats a tackle that used to be applauded. can understand the pen even though i disagree, but never a yellow

If thats a yellow then you might as well say goodbye to tackling. If anything it was SBW trying to offload that got his body twisted and resulted in him getting dumped.

by Hood83 Sat 24 Jun 2017, 1:00 pm

fa0019 wrote:
Hood83 wrote:
mid_gen wrote:Have to revise the strategy of box-kicking possession back to the ABs constantly, despite Murray being very good at it, it wasn't working for us.

Bench needs to be reworked to bring on some impact players up front Lawes, Stander, Marler, Sinckler....and some pace, JJ?

Problem is I get the impression it's used as much as a way to give our forwards a breather. Fitness and intensity still seem to be a problem for us, incredibly.

Its the way the NH set up their game and also in part to the conditions. If the game is played 3/4 of the time in cold, wet conditions then you build players to be slower, force fewer passes and linebreaks are more difficult to maintain... so you have bigger backlines, more suited 10 yard smashes rather than clean breaks.

Look at junior rugby for instance and the JRWC... NH players are men and look like their training regime is 30% rugby, 70% deadlift. England physically dominate other sides but whereas size can win, the smaller SH players are playing an offloading game, one handed plays, tracking channels rather than standing behind the carrier for the expected ruck clearance. It breeds better players in the long term for the test arena.

I think that's less true then it used to be. The England pack at the JWC was smaller than just about all other packs, if anything the SH packs seemed to have taken a leaf out of our book and bulked up. However technically we've got better. The problem is, so have the Baby Blacks. The NH's perpetual problem is we can produce small and skilful, or big and strong. Not both.

Hopefully more all weather pitches coming into use will mean the game speeds up and we look for better clearing out and more adventurous backs. But you know what will happen, the scrum will go to pot. In fact it looked like that had already happened today! I cannot see us ever producing a Savea, or an Iaone, or an SBW. So we need to work out how to play against these players, or find players that take away this strength.

by fa0019 Sat 24 Jun 2017, 1:01 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:And fa proving he didn't watch the u20s.

so you think the NH junior players are slick operators compared to their SH counterparts? Yes NZ have big kids but they're very skillful and look at that strategy to beat sides.... not through size alone. AUS and SA players now look to build ball playing skills over size because thats how NZ went and if you can't beat them, join them.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 24 Jun 2017, 1:03 pm

Ah to be fair you may be right. It's mainly england going for skill levels.

by Guest Sat 24 Jun 2017, 1:04 pm

Where's gwlad?

Miss that guy

by fa0019 Sat 24 Jun 2017, 1:05 pm

Hood83 wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
Hood83 wrote:
mid_gen wrote:Have to revise the strategy of box-kicking possession back to the ABs constantly, despite Murray being very good at it, it wasn't working for us.

Bench needs to be reworked to bring on some impact players up front Lawes, Stander, Marler, Sinckler....and some pace, JJ?

Problem is I get the impression it's used as much as a way to give our forwards a breather. Fitness and intensity still seem to be a problem for us, incredibly.

Its the way the NH set up their game and also in part to the conditions. If the game is played 3/4 of the time in cold, wet conditions then you build players to be slower, force fewer passes and linebreaks are more difficult to maintain... so you have bigger backlines, more suited 10 yard smashes rather than clean breaks.

Look at junior rugby for instance and the JRWC... NH players are men and look like their training regime is 30% rugby, 70% deadlift. England physically dominate other sides but whereas size can win, the smaller SH players are playing an offloading game, one handed plays, tracking channels rather than standing behind the carrier for the expected ruck clearance. It breeds better players in the long term for the test arena.

I think that's less true then it used to be. The England pack at the JWC was smaller than just about all other packs, if anything the SH packs seemed to have taken a leaf out of our book and bulked up. However technically we've got better. The problem is, so have the Baby Blacks. The NH's perpetual problem is we can produce small and skilful, or big and strong. Not both.

Hopefully more all weather pitches coming into use will mean the game speeds up and we look for better clearing out and more adventurous backs. But you know what will happen, the scrum will go to pot. In fact it looked like that had already happened today! I cannot see us ever producing a Savea, or an Iaone, or an SBW. So we need to work out how to play against these players, or find players that take away this strength.

Not trying to suggest the NH emulates NZ. They have to play to their own style to a degree but they can beat teams like NZ... Ireland in 16 proved that. You're not going to beat sides with static minded game plans though.

I mean what was Howley's ace card reserve play? The Sexton loop move?

by Guest Sat 24 Jun 2017, 1:07 pm

fa0019 wrote:
ebop wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
ebop wrote:
fa0019 wrote:A full strength England side with Jones at the helm would have taken this side all the way
Jones is probably the best coach in the world
Mate, I have to give you some more tumbleweed

Even PDivvy would have won the world cup with NZ.

Dude, stop it!!

Tumbleweed

by Hood83 Sat 24 Jun 2017, 1:09 pm

fa0019 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:And fa proving he didn't watch the u20s.

so you think the NH junior players are slick operators compared to their SH counterparts? Yes NZ have big kids but they're very skillful and look at that strategy to beat sides.... not through size alone. AUS and SA players now look to build ball playing skills over size because thats how NZ went and if you can't beat them, join them.

Not exactly, though slicker than the SA pack by a distance. There was some excellent offloading and support play from our pack. The biggest difference between our pack and the BBs was our clearing out. It's the same at every level for every year. The only time I thought we got close to competing was during the Nick walshe years.

by milkyboy Sat 24 Jun 2017, 1:12 pm

fa0019 wrote:
milkyboy wrote:
fa0019 wrote:I don't think you can say the lions were attacking. They had 1 broken field break (the try) and 2 passes down the line to Davies which made yards and threatened the try line.

3 chances doesn't equate attacking play. Pick attacking players and sure Willliams, Daly and Watson will take chances in any strategy, conditions or scenario.

Bar the dummy 2nd receiver backline play, the garry owen and the crash ball what did the lions ever do?

Its club rugby to NZ.

What did their backline do with twice the ball? We were feeding off scraps. Think it was the least of our problems today.

One coaching comment. When watching I questioned the sense in why we would change hooker with an attacking line out 5 yards out. No time for a guy coming on cold to make his first throw in my opinion. Sure enough it was picked off. Brainless clock based substitution in my view. Crucial time of the game. Small margins in test rugby.

The problem is its predictable. You know whats going to happen.

Davies had the lions share of the attacking runs.. why because the dummy 2nd receiver play is the only one they had ball in hand and where does that ball always end up... in the OC's hands in space. You got to do better than that. When did the 3/4 drop onto the midfield shoulder. NZ rushed up, where was the chip chase to counter. If you don't mix it up you won't leave a team guessing... and that is where the gaps appear. Its not about being fancy, its about keeping the opposition guessing. Gatland has as much strategic nous as Douglas Haig did in WWI. Fact - his attack coach had the worst attack of the home nations in the 6N.

The lions defended a lot of the time, that is true but they had a lot of ball, a lot of carries but 3 metre carries in the trenches is a 5 man effort. SH teams don't waste energy on such meager gains and if they do they do as a platform, not as a strategy. I mean there was one moment Kruis picked and drove on his own into 4 kiwis with no support.... If you have no support don't even think about it. Jones would had trashed him for that (as Gatland probably will too).

Well FA you could argue that the play to get Davies in space worked to a degree. I get you're not a fan of gatland, I just don't think today is the day to be trashing the back line performance, we had very little ball, the stats are damning - little chance to build continuity and fluidity with front foot ball.

You said earlier that nobody had a bad game, but if a lot of their oppos had good ones... something isn't working. Kruis had a shocker I thought - 2 knock-on's from ball that should have been held, the ill advised charge with no support you mentioned and stripped of possession in the tackle. That's giving the ball away four times.

I thought the AB strategy today was a lot of 3 metre carries in the trenches drive recycle drive recycle... they just recycle quickly enough to make the next pick and go easier. Looks pretty easy when they do it!

by geoff999rugby Sat 24 Jun 2017, 1:18 pm

We lost up front, lineouts apart.
The front five in particular failed to delivery and Falateau was also too quiet
Kruis wasn't at the races and very disappointed with Furlong and George
AMJ can no longer cut it at this level and Vunipola is too weak a scrummager

McGrath, Best, Sinckler, Lawes, Itoje should all be in with a shout
Stander and Henderson should be considered for the bench
Also must consider Warburton or Tipuric to counter the ABs at the breakdown.

Backs didn't do too bad.
Williams was Williams - one absolutely brilliant piece of play but then balances it out by giving away a try with a complete hash under a high ball
Farrell was too quiet for me - didn't impose himself
I'd keep the threes - they weren't the problem.
Also keep Murray - did well behind an inferior pack

by Hood83 Sat 24 Jun 2017, 1:19 pm

fa0019 wrote:
Hood83 wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
Hood83 wrote:
mid_gen wrote:Have to revise the strategy of box-kicking possession back to the ABs constantly, despite Murray being very good at it, it wasn't working for us.

Bench needs to be reworked to bring on some impact players up front Lawes, Stander, Marler, Sinckler....and some pace, JJ?

Problem is I get the impression it's used as much as a way to give our forwards a breather. Fitness and intensity still seem to be a problem for us, incredibly.

Its the way the NH set up their game and also in part to the conditions. If the game is played 3/4 of the time in cold, wet conditions then you build players to be slower, force fewer passes and linebreaks are more difficult to maintain... so you have bigger backlines, more suited 10 yard smashes rather than clean breaks.

Look at junior rugby for instance and the JRWC... NH players are men and look like their training regime is 30% rugby, 70% deadlift. England physically dominate other sides but whereas size can win, the smaller SH players are playing an offloading game, one handed plays, tracking channels rather than standing behind the carrier for the expected ruck clearance. It breeds better players in the long term for the test arena.

I think that's less true then it used to be. The England pack at the JWC was smaller than just about all other packs, if anything the SH packs seemed to have taken a leaf out of our book and bulked up. However technically we've got better. The problem is, so have the Baby Blacks. The NH's perpetual problem is we can produce small and skilful, or big and strong. Not both.

Hopefully more all weather pitches coming into use will mean the game speeds up and we look for better clearing out and more adventurous backs. But you know what will happen, the scrum will go to pot. In fact it looked like that had already happened today! I cannot see us ever producing a Savea, or an Iaone, or an SBW. So we need to work out how to play against these players, or find players that take away this strength.

Not trying to suggest the NH emulates NZ. They have to play to their own style to a degree but they can beat teams like NZ... Ireland in 16 proved that. You're not going to beat sides with static minded game plans though.

I mean what was Howley's ace card reserve play? The Sexton loop move?

Yes I definitely agree on that. Every ball the ABs got out of the ruck with lightning speed. All in takes is for one person to make a couple of yards on a carry and they've got you back peddling. My point was more that If there's one thing I'd want NH teams to focus on it's relentless drilling of the breakdown, not offloading. Until we've got some parity there, we're screwed.

by geoff999rugby Sat 24 Jun 2017, 1:19 pm

Whitlock, Retallick, Read - are by some distance the best Locks and No 8 in the game

Great players

by milkyboy Sat 24 Jun 2017, 1:24 pm

Devils advocate on vunipola the scrummager. The scrum that got ruined for their second try was after jones and mako had just been replaced for itoje and McGrath

by fa0019 Sat 24 Jun 2017, 1:26 pm

milkyboy wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
milkyboy wrote:
fa0019 wrote:I don't think you can say the lions were attacking. They had 1 broken field break (the try) and 2 passes down the line to Davies which made yards and threatened the try line.

3 chances doesn't equate attacking play. Pick attacking players and sure Willliams, Daly and Watson will take chances in any strategy, conditions or scenario.

Bar the dummy 2nd receiver backline play, the garry owen and the crash ball what did the lions ever do?

Its club rugby to NZ.

What did their backline do with twice the ball? We were feeding off scraps. Think it was the least of our problems today.

One coaching comment. When watching I questioned the sense in why we would change hooker with an attacking line out 5 yards out. No time for a guy coming on cold to make his first throw in my opinion. Sure enough it was picked off. Brainless clock based substitution in my view. Crucial time of the game. Small margins in test rugby.

The problem is its predictable. You know whats going to happen.

Davies had the lions share of the attacking runs.. why because the dummy 2nd receiver play is the only one they had ball in hand and where does that ball always end up... in the OC's hands in space. You got to do better than that. When did the 3/4 drop onto the midfield shoulder. NZ rushed up, where was the chip chase to counter. If you don't mix it up you won't leave a team guessing... and that is where the gaps appear. Its not about being fancy, its about keeping the opposition guessing. Gatland has as much strategic nous as Douglas Haig did in WWI. Fact - his attack coach had the worst attack of the home nations in the 6N.

The lions defended a lot of the time, that is true but they had a lot of ball, a lot of carries but 3 metre carries in the trenches is a 5 man effort. SH teams don't waste energy on such meager gains and if they do they do as a platform, not as a strategy. I mean there was one moment Kruis picked and drove on his own into 4 kiwis with no support.... If you have no support don't even think about it. Jones would had trashed him for that (as Gatland probably will too).
Well FA you could argue that the play to get Davies in space worked to a degree. I get you're not a fan of gatland, I just don't think today is the day to be trashing the back line performance, we had very little ball, the stats are damning - little chance to build continuity and fluidity with front foot ball.

You said earlier that nobody had a bad game, but if a lot of their oppos had good ones... something isn't working. Kruis had a shocker I thought - 2 knock-on's from ball that should have been held, the ill advised charge with no support you mentioned and stripped of possession in the tackle. That's giving the ball away four times.

I thought the AB strategy today was a lot of 3 metre carries in the trenches drive recycle drive recycle... they just recycle quickly enough to make the next pick and go easier. Looks pretty easy when they do it!

You're right.. it did work and JD2 played well but you can't keep on playing the same move. All teams (even NZ) use it. Its a good tactic but when its your only ball in hand move your opponents quickly drown it out eventually.

In the past lions matches we've had faltering lineouts, faltering scrums and a lack of initial intensity... this time we had that but we were soundly beaten and by players who frankly deserve better. My point was that NZ were very comfortable throughout bar Williams' break. NZ played Wales last year in a 3 match series and what was different? The score diff in that tour was was 18, 14 and 40. If he can't even beat that with 4 times the players it shows he really shouldn't have been the man to take the lions forward.

by Hood83 Sat 24 Jun 2017, 1:26 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Whitlock, Retallick, Read - are by some distance the best Locks and No 8 in the game

Great players

Agreed.

by geoff999rugby Sat 24 Jun 2017, 1:27 pm

May well be true but doesn't alter the fact Mako had struggled all game and McGrath is far more reliable

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