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England vs South Africa - test series thread

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 26 Jun 2017, 11:44 am

First topic message reminder :

In the fast paced nature of international cricket, we are just over a week away from the first of four test matches between SA and England - should be a good one.

South Africa have named their squad...missing some big names in Steyn, ABDV - also no Dane Piedt, Stephen Cook either.

South Africa squad: Faf du Plessis (captain), Hashim Amla, Temba Bavuma, Theunis de Bruyn, Quinton de Kock, JP Duminy, Dean Elgar, Heino Kuhn, Keshav Maharaj, Aiden Markram, Morne Morkel, Chris Morris, Duanne Olivier, Andile Phehlukwayo, Vernon Philander, Kagiso Rabada.

Still a very strong team - especially in the seam bowling ranks. Although with Faf missing the first test, the batting is reliant on Amla and De Kock I feel

England have a few injury concerns - particularly Stuart Broad - any thoughts on the SA squad, and potential England one?
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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 4:27 pm

alfie wrote:I suspect if Stoneman does come in it will be for Jennings with Ballance shuffled down the order - which will still need another new man at 3/4.
Not ideal to be making wholesale changes to the top order but this series now looks seriously tough and they are running out of time to stitch together an Ashes party.  May have to cut their losses...
I know some players take time to get established ; but to be honest I can recall very few really good bats for England over the last few decades who didn't announce themselves pretty much from their first game : Cook Strauss KP ...Root.  Going back earlier Thorpe , Trescothick...you could see from the start that they belonged.

I don't see that with Jennings. Or Duckett . Or Ballance. Do you , guildford ?

I actually thought I saw such a one in young Hameed ; and I still harbour hopes he will come again. Though I am truly surprised he has suffered such a horror run this summer and would love to know what is being done with him at the moment by his coaches...

Hmm. Nice hospital pass there, Alfred. Wink

I've never been too taken with Jennings. Even when he got a Test ton and a fifty soon after debut, I recall him having a fair bit of luck along the way to those scores. As Olly suggests, England didn't waste too much time in getting rid of Duckett but I don't think he's set even Division Two alight this season. Ballance hasn't transferred his recent admirable county form to the top level and frankly doesn't look like doing so.

So who else is there? The county who are heading Division One by some way and have taken many (certainly me) by surprise are Essex. That could be a good place to start looking. Potential candidates there who are all up somewhere in the national averages are Nick Browne, Tom Westley and Dan Lawrence. Other possibles are Surrey's Mark Stoneman and Middlesex's Dawid Malan, both also performed well with the Lions I think.. Someone else riding high is Kent's Joe Denly in Div Two. Sure, that's a lower level as Goose is always telling us. However, just because someone is playing against tins of custard doesn't automatically mean they are also a tin of custard.

I would certainly look to bring Stoneman in based on what I've seen at the Oval this year and possibly also Westley - that's more of a punt although he scored a winning century at Guildford in a well timed knock last month.

PS and Edit: honestly hadn't seen Olly's post referring to Westley when I first submitted this post. Thought I was being innovative there! Wink


Last edited by guildfordbat on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 4:31 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : As above.)

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Post by jimbohammers on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 5:09 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I'd personally go with this for the oval

Cook
Stoneman
Westley
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Foakes
Ali
Wood
Broad
Anderson


Im surprised you haven't put Ollie Pope and Gareth Batty in there

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 5:10 pm

As for Bairstow, I'll say again that I can't see the selectors wanting to take the keeper's gloves away when they've invested so heavily in him for that role and he's improved so much.

It also strikes me as a bit of a cop out to bring in Foakes when we don't need a new keeper and who will be a lesser batsman than the previous keeper just because we're struggling to find a top order batsman.

Btw, Alfie, you seem to have lost a lot of faith in Wood's bowling. I recall you being a fairly strong supporter, yes?


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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 5:19 pm

jimbohammers wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I'd personally go with this for the oval

Cook
Stoneman
Westley
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Foakes
Ali
Wood
Broad
Anderson


Im surprised you haven't put Ollie Pope and Gareth Batty in there

Laugh You can tell Olly is new to Surrey. The real old guys at the Oval only care about the County Championship and don't want England pinching any of their players! Wink

To be fair to Olly, he hasn't included Scott Borthwick whom many were touting for an England recall not so long ago but has been pretty disappointing since his arrival at the Oval.

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Post by VTR on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 5:48 pm

Well outside of here I've already seen Hales, Bell, Morgan and Buttler all touted. That could be four of a new look top six right there!

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 5:57 pm

Hi VTR - I did also mean to mention Hales. After he ducked out of an overseas tour, England seemed rather quick to close the door on him. Maybe a change of mind coming? I've only seen him this season on tv in the RL 50 final where he was supreme after being gifted a life by Olly's buddy Pope. Wink

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Post by VTR on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 5:59 pm

Out of all those names, Hales would actually be the most reasonable shout. No one would be expecting much but is at least a right hander. Bell and Morgan though, absolutely outrageous suggestions!

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 6:10 pm

Warks are having a ghastly season due in no small part to Bell's appalling captaincy and batting.

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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 6:54 pm

Absolutely pitiful batting display in the second innings, compounded with a crushing defeat. Root and Cook received jaffers. Whereas the rest showed no bottle or heart to fight it out. Gotta be the end of Ballance as he's not Test class. Dawson as well.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 6:57 pm

jimbohammers wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I'd personally go with this for the oval

Cook
Stoneman
Westley
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Foakes
Ali
Wood
Broad
Anderson


Im surprised you haven't put Ollie Pope and Gareth Batty in there

Did consider Jason Roy at 5 Laugh
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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 7:51 pm

Foakes is far more sensible than Buttler ...but the coach has in the past said he reckons butylers good enough to be a test batsman and tried to make it happen.
With him and Hales though surely that would be responding to the problem with more of the same. The talk from the pundits is that the focus is too much on the limited overs batting and the side heavy with attacking players...hence its brittleness.
Neither Hales nor Buttler are ever going to be Boycott or even Gooch. Trying to change them would likely bork their ODI game.
Roy as a middle order bat isnt impossible butsame again and it doesnt fix the top 3/4.
Duckett and Malan too seem likely destined for the ODI side if anywhere in the short term.
Bringing up Bell again really is scrapping the barrell. Especially if we are talking top 3. Joe Denly? Is it 2009 again?

Stoneman and Westley, then praying for Habib to rebuild his game seem the options for the immediate future.


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Post by alfie on Mon 17 Jul 2017, 11:29 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Foakes is far more sensible than Buttler ...but the coach has in the past said he reckons butylers good enough to be a test batsman and tried to make it happen.
With him and Hales though surely that would be responding to the problem with more of the same. The talk from the pundits is that the focus is too much on the limited overs batting and the side heavy with attacking players...hence its brittleness.
Neither Hales nor Buttler are ever going to be Boycott or even Gooch.  Trying to change them would likely bork their ODI game.
Roy as a middle order bat isnt impossible butsame again and it doesnt fix the top 3/4.
Duckett and Malan too seem likely destined for the ODI side if anywhere in the short term.
Bringing up Bell again really is scrapping the barrell. Especially if we are talking top 3. Joe Denly? Is it 2009 again?

Stoneman and Westley, then praying for Habib to rebuild his game seem the options for the immediate future.


I think you're seeing the light , Goose Smile


Cook Stoneman Westley Root (Ballance ?) Stokes Bairstow Moeen A BOWLER Broad Anderson

(I will accept someone else for Ballance but three new bats in one go might be stretching it)

And if you insist , swap Bairstow and Stokes ... Will that do ?

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Post by alfie on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 1:18 am

guildfordbat wrote:As for Bairstow, I'll say again that I can't see the selectors wanting to take the keeper's gloves away when they've invested so heavily in him for that role and he's improved so much.

It also strikes me as a bit of a cop out to bring in Foakes when we don't need a new keeper and who will be a lesser batsman than the previous keeper just because we're struggling to find a top order batsman.

Btw, Alfie, you seem to have lost a lot of faith in Wood's bowling. I recall you being a fairly strong supporter, yes?

Ah yes - perhaps I'm being a little harsh re Wood. But I am a bit concerned about him : he has played (nine or ten ?) Tests now and his best innings haul is just three wickets - not what one hopes from a strike bowler. And in these two matches he has been pretty ineffective and it can't all be down to luck , surely ?
It may be that he hasn't quite recaptured his rhythm after his injuries ...but in that case we have to fear that he may never do so . Finn (similar in some ways ; though very different in that he had several five wicket hauls early on without quite convincing everyone he fully deserved them) never seemed to get back to his best after he fell from grace when he was forced to amend his delivery approach to avoid colliding with the stumps.
It can take time, of course : Anderson went into the wilderness for a while when he tried to change his action at the behest of well-meaning coaches ; but he came back. Perhaps Wood will do so too . I hope so ; but I'm not certain he will be best served by trying to do so in the spotlight of the England Test team ?
I know they want him for Australia. But persisting now when it just isn't happening for him risks not only failing in that endeavour but also losing the current series with SA - and I am a great believer in making winning the match you're playing now as the first priority...

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Post by alfie on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 1:21 am

VTR wrote:Out of all those names, Hales would actually be the most reasonable shout. No one would be expecting much but is at least a right hander. Bell and Morgan though, absolutely outrageous suggestions!

Probably wouldn't see him coming back as an opener . Just possible he might be an option at four , say , if Root went back to three ? Not my preferred choice but as you say , not totally outrageous.

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Post by alfie on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 1:30 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
jimbohammers wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I'd personally go with this for the oval

Cook
Stoneman
Westley
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Foakes
Ali
Wood
Broad
Anderson


Im surprised you haven't put Ollie Pope and Gareth Batty in there


Did consider Jason Roy at 5 Laugh

Believe it or not , Olly , I'd sooner Jason Roy at five in that side than that Foakes for w/k move you seem determined to force... You spent some time trying to get Buttler into the job and when India proved that didn't work you've switched Smile

Why move Bairstow out just as he's getting better at the job ? And why try to jam him into the five spot when all the figures say he makes way more runs at seven ? SA have de Kock at four at the moment because they don't have a Stokes and they need five bowlers. England do ; so they do not need to sacrifice batting depth...and heaven knows until they find another one or two truly Test Class batsmen they need all the depth they can muster to compensate...

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Post by VTR on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 8:13 am

Spot on re de Kock - England should not look to emulate that. SA are as a result playing Philander at 7 - say what you want, and he did well in this Test, but that is an accident waiting to happen

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 9:03 am

alfie wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
jimbohammers wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I'd personally go with this for the oval

Cook
Stoneman
Westley
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Foakes
Ali
Wood
Broad
Anderson


Im surprised you haven't put Ollie Pope and Gareth Batty in there


Did consider Jason Roy at 5 Laugh

Believe it or not , Olly , I'd sooner Jason Roy at five in that side than that Foakes for w/k move you seem determined to force...   You spent some time trying to get Buttler into the job and when India proved that didn't work you've switched Smile

Why move Bairstow out just as he's getting better at the job ?  And why try to jam him into the five spot when all the figures say he makes way more runs at seven ?  SA have de Kock at four at the moment because they don't have a Stokes and they need five bowlers.  England do ; so they do not need to sacrifice batting depth...and heaven knows until they find another one or two truly Test Class batsmen they need all the depth they can muster to compensate...

Bairstow at least needs to be batting above Stokes at 6 - he's our second best batsman behind Root at the moment, with all our issues we can't keep having him come in at 7 and sheparding the tail - he needs to be in earlier to build a score. If that means he's exposed a little earlier, then imo he's more than good enough to handle that.

I accept the Foakes pick is just a personal thing - I saw a good article earlier this week saying that England may need to go back to selecting on gut feel, alongside just pure county runs - that's what Foakes would be for me, but not sure who else could play middle order unless we're taking a risk on a young guy like Livingstone, Joe Clarke etc
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 9:44 am

Nick Hoult reporting that Stoneman will come in to open, Jennings at 3, Ballance at 5 (depending on the outcome of his scan - if not fit Westley likely to be called up), and then it's a decision between Wood/Ball for the third seamer slot
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Post by guildfordbat on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 10:48 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Nick Hoult reporting that Stoneman will come in to open, Jennings at 3, Ballance at 5 (depending on the outcome of his scan - if not fit Westley likely to be called up), and then it's a decision between Wood/Ball for the third seamer slot

Westley getting a few mentions in the press today. I didn't think he was that close when I gave him a shout out yesterday.

Foakes' name also being put about although I haven't seen him included in any team suggested by a professional pundit. I feel that's right on all counts.

In the third seamer slot, I would be included to go with Roland-Jones. Admittedly, he's not going to be the mainstay of England seam bowling for the next decade. However, I very much subscribe to Alfie's philosophy of ''making winning the match you're playing now as the first priority''.  I think he would be a good fit for this upcoming Test. He's normally steady and reliable and usually does well for Middlesex at the Oval. That might not sound adventurous and that's probably because it isn't. However, to be a success you need the back row of the chorus performing well in addition to the stars of the show.

I've also seen Craig Overton and Crane getting mentioned. Nah, I don't go along with that. Not sure which Overton would turn up and I'm not just referring to his twin!Wink Fast but not always reliable and can go for some; also, this may just be his brother but I'm not sure of his fitness. I like Crane a lot and think he's a fine young prospect but don't believe this is his time or even place. I fear the Saffers would look to get after him as the Aussies did against Kerrigan and that they could succeed. Unlike many pundits, I'm not convinced Oval tracks are a spinner's delight these days.

PS  Going back to Nick Hoult (glad you seem to be following him more than that daft Ammon, Olly! Smile ) - what he suggests about the batting line up may be correct but I feel it displays a lack of confidence in your batters when one of them drops a place in the order and another two places.

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Post by VTR on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 10:57 am

It shows the level of disarray, as I swear any England qualified player who can stand upright is being touted on various platforms. Here's an XI of names that I've seen in the last 24 hours, in the position suggested:

Compton
Roy
Bell
KP
Hildreth
Morgan
Buttler
C Overton
J Overton
Finn
Crane

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 12:12 pm

VTR wrote:Spot on re de Kock - England should not look to emulate that. SA are as a result playing Philander at 7 - say what you want, and he did well in this Test, but that is an accident waiting to happen


Seem to have lost the long post I wrote rubbishing this ...oh well here goes the short version ...

SA already had the accident when they put de Kock so far down the order.
Yes they have a tail, but thats because they also need 5 bowlers and dont have a Kallis anymore ...if de Kock were at 7 still Philander would be at 6. Now you can argue hes a place high at 4, but he is their second best batsman in terms of average and with Amla creaking it was bananas to have him down the order.

England arent in that world anyway. They have 1 more bowler than they really need, and much stronger 7 (and in theory 8 depending who they pick) even with that. A batsman of Philanders level ( who I seem to remeber scoring quite a lot of runs) would be at 8/9 for England regardless of where they put their keeper.

Im not advocating Bairstow in the top 4 ...but 5 is a good comprimise and the right sort of position for him. Or if you ditch the waste of space Dawson and put an extra batsman in 6 is OK. But hiding him at 7 coming in when teh games already lost is ludicrous when we can only find two specialist bats who can hold down a place in the side. Stokes is bordelrine at 6, and Moeen hasnt been able to hold down a top 6 batting spot either.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 12:24 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Nick Hoult reporting that Stoneman will come in to open, Jennings at 3, Ballance at 5 (depending on the outcome of his scan - if not fit Westley likely to be called up), and then it's a decision between Wood/Ball for the third seamer slot

Westley getting a few mentions in the press today. I didn't think he was that close when I gave him a shout out yesterday.

Foakes' name also being put about although I haven't seen him included in any team suggested by a professional pundit. I feel that's right on all counts.

In the third seamer slot, I would be included to go with Roland-Jones. Admittedly, he's not going to be the mainstay of England seam bowling for the next decade. However, I very much subscribe to Alfie's philosophy of ''making winning the match you're playing now as the first priority''.  I think he would be a good fit for this upcoming Test. He's normally steady and reliable and usually does well for Middlesex at the Oval. That might not sound adventurous and that's probably because it isn't. However, to be a success you need the back row of the chorus performing well in addition to the stars of the show.

I've also seen Craig Overton and Crane getting mentioned. Nah, I don't go along with that. Not sure which Overton would turn up and I'm not just referring to his twin!Wink Fast but not always reliable and can go for some; also, this may just be his brother but I'm not sure of his fitness. I like Crane a lot and think he's a fine young prospect but don't believe this is his time or even place. I fear the Saffers would look to get after him as the Aussies did against Kerrigan and that they could succeed. Unlike many pundits, I'm not convinced Oval tracks are a spinner's delight these days.

PS  Going back to Nick Hoult (glad you seem to be following him more than that daft Ammon, Olly! Smile ) - what he suggests about the batting line up may be correct but I feel it displays a lack of confidence in your batters when one of them drops a place in the order and another two places.


Id rather the management displayed a lack of faith rather than persisiting with something boneheadedly thats not working.
Theres issues with Hoults rumoured batting changes  but I think it looks to address the short term issues without totally throwing people under the bus

In terms of the bowling ...Id have Leach over Crane assuming they are happy with his action now. Hes back taking wickets again in the CC (for all thats worth) and a much more mature player. Plus hes not yet another leggy cannon fodder, but does give the left arm variety to compliment Moeen. Thats if youre going to have two spinners and 6 bowlers, which is a luxury.

In terms of a seamer to replace Wood Id take Plunkett over TRJ, he has a bit more fire in him and has 8 South African wickets to his name this year in various formats alredy. He probably blew his chance in the Lions game mind. I think he has more chance of being considered for the winter than TRJ too.

Cook
Stoneman
Jennings
Root
Ballance
Bairstow
Moeen
Stokes
Plunkett
Broad
Anderson

Should sort any excuses for the batting if nothing else. If that couldnt make 400 in a first innings then we may as well give up now.

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Post by alfie on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 12:54 pm

Blimey , Goose ...I think we can nearly agree on that... Shocked

I am ready to compromise on Bairstow at 6 With Stokes moving to 7 though not 8... Deal ?

I don't mind the Plunkett pick either. Though I tend to agree with guildford that TRJ is probably the next in line at the moment.

Might have to replace Ballance though if he's injured . And I guess it would be strange in a way if all the batsmen survived after being skittled three innings in a row while two bowlers got dropped ! But on the other hand they won't want two debutants in the top six...

Not easy , this selection caper...

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 1:36 pm

If Ballance is out then that probably does give Dawson a pass and back to 6 bowlers. I also cant see them adding another two batsmen to the side amongst everything else, even if its not another debutant.
Dawson in would leave it looking a bit fragile but gets Stokes a top 7 spot back for you Wink

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Post by alfie on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 2:02 pm

Gooseberry wrote:If Ballance is out then that probably does give Dawson a pass and back to 6 bowlers. I also cant see them adding another two batsmen to the side amongst everything else, even if its not another debutant.
Dawson in would leave it looking a bit fragile but gets Stokes a top 7 spot back for you Wink

Tell me you're joking ! Not Six Bowlers Ever Again ...please ghost

I'd even accept Ravi back ...

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 2:39 pm

Surely theres a Surrey player available?

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 2:48 pm

Harsh article on cricinfo doing a hatchet job on Bayliss as a test coach.

First points out that none of his new caps have managed to establish themselves as test players.

Then...

if he doesn't have much say in selection and he doesn't have much say in coaching, it does rather beg the question: what does he do? If he's just creating a relaxed environment, he could be replaced by a couple of scented candles, a yucca plant and a CD of ambient whale noises.

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Post by VTR on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 2:55 pm

Looks like the kind of line the writer thought up a while ago and has now been able to shoe-horn into an article. The whole piece is pure clickbait

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 3:06 pm

Well it is Dobbel but theres nothing you can argue with, other than that hes overegging a bit.

The test team still has the same issues it did except the infighting. The new players havent worked out and if anything performances overall have dipped.
County cricket isnt providing what they need but nor are they improving players enough.

Bayliss and his approach have been a roaring success in the short forms. Theyve failed in tests


Last edited by Gooseberry on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 3:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by LionsV2 on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 3:16 pm

In fairness Bayliss is doing a terrible job so far.

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Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 3:31 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Well it is Dobbel but theres nothing you can argue with, other than that hes overegging a bit.

The test team still has the same issues it did except the infighting. The new players havent worked out and if anything performances overall have dipped.
County cricket isnt providing what they need but nor are they improving players enough.

Bayliss and his approach have been a roaring success in the short forms. They've failed in tests

Fundamentally both the limited overs and test side have similar issues - the batting is full of attacking flat-track bullies who struggle to adapt when there's a bit in the pitch for the bowlers (Root being the exception of the players playing across all the formats - and even then you could argue he's not converting enough 70s and 80s into tons). Test performance has been worse than limited overs for 2 reasons - firstly over a test match you're more likely to strike sub-optimal batting conditions at some point over 2 innings than in a limited overs match, and secondly (while Moeen did bowl well at Lords) the spin attack is generally better suited to limited overs where batsmen are trying to attack them more.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 3:37 pm

Our problem was that Strauss, Trott, KP and Prior all retired in fairly quick succession (or lost their spots) - and we've only really been able to replace Prior. Ultimately the talent just doesn't appear to be there at the moment in terms of test batting - god knows we've tried enough players!!

I think that article has some fair points - but considering last week everyone was raving after a win, seems a little reactionary to me.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 3:38 pm

Dobell is also suggesting Andy flower should return - make your own judgements about his agenda....
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 3:44 pm

Ballance seeing a hand surgeon in Leeds today - looks likely to miss the next test (BBC TMS report)
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Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 4:09 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Ballance seeing a hand surgeon in Leeds today - looks likely to miss the next test (BBC TMS report)

While sometimes broken fingers are manageable, batting against an SA pace attack before it's healed seems contraindicated to me
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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 4:15 pm

Ballance getting a broken hand is a blessing in disguise. Root loves his buddy too much to drop. Ballance simply is good enough at Test level against sides with top class fast bowling. Stoneman should get a go at the Oval.

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Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 4:17 pm

Just read on Cricinfo that Bayliss has still never seen Stoneman bat!

That does put an extra onus on him and the selectors being in tune with each other, as he's reliant on their evaluation of players on the county circuit
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Post by wisden on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 4:54 pm

Ballance is out broken finger... Stoneman rumoured to get the call up, with Jenninngs batting at 3

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 5:43 pm

Yeah Bayliss sees his job as managing the england side not selecting the induviduals who make it up or even fine coaching them. Theres something to be said for the hands off approach and trusting your experts to do their jobs. It makes a change from the high stress autocratic Flower era, altjough even he had little time or interest for the county game.
Its also long been argued by retiring captains and other pundits that the captain should have a greater say in the side they lead and the players on the pitch know they have their leaders backing. Now we have that it gets questioned.
I guess for me the two things with Bayliss and tests are can he trust his experts...and what exsctly do we pay him for. Even more so Strauss ...its easy to forget hes actually still on the payroll.
I also believe that although hes had a fairly hands off approach with the actual individual selections some of the funky things like 7 bowlers and 2 wicket keepers have at least in part been at his direction.

Another thing thus highlights is how divorced the lions are from the senior team. Given its such a small squad of contracted players to begin with i wonder if more shoukd be done to train together and foster the second string and upcomers.

We have seen a succession of players make waves in the lions and either be ignored a d fade into obscurity or get picked and end up junked acter 2 series. Somethings not right there.

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket on Tue 18 Jul 2017, 8:59 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Surely theres a Surrey player available?

Could always go for Roy Burns to replace Jennings! He's also Surrey through and through - not a recent import like Stoneman Very Happy Burns has a good career average - a bit over 40. Tbf I don't actually think he is test class.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 8:41 am

Haseeb Hameed scores a 100 in a Lancashire 2's game and people are calling on him to be called up on the back of it.

I know we're desperate - but I don't think a kid scoring some runs against a club side, is an indicator for how he'll do against Philander, Rabada and Morkel. Needs to score some runs for Lancs in the CC
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Post by VTR on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 8:58 am

Hameed has loads of time to become the player we all hope that he will be. Sounds like he's taken a very first small step but obviously agree, that level of match doesn't tell us too much. Even Joe Root was dropped early in his career, Bairstow was dropped a couple of times. Cook was one poor match away from the chop at one point. Good players will come through eventually.

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Post by alfie on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 9:37 am

Very glad to see Hameed making even a small first step on the road back...but I agree it would be daft to try and rush him back into the international game ; as Olly says , he can bat for his county side and concentrate on getting back into the form that won him his debut .

That said, I have a strong feeling that he is one who will come again : reckon there was something a bit special about him in those couple of innings in India ; and I am still not quite sure what happened to him this season. Trouble adjusting after recovery from his injury ? Bowlers working out his weaknesses ? Some personal issues ?

Whatever it is , hope he continues on his comeback ...England can certainly use another sound top order player...

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 9:42 am

alfie wrote:Very glad to see Hameed making even a small first step on the road back...but I agree it would be daft to try and rush him back into the international game ; as Olly says , he can bat for his county side and concentrate on getting back into the form that won him his debut .

That said, I have a strong feeling that he is one who will come again : reckon there was something a bit special about him in those couple of innings in India ; and I am still not quite sure what happened to him this season.  Trouble adjusting after recovery from his injury ? Bowlers working out his weaknesses ? Some personal issues ?

Whatever it is , hope he continues on his comeback ...England can certainly use another sound top order player...

I think it's a combination of overcoming injury, playing one day cricket and bowlers seeing more of him. As VTR very rightly points out, all our young talent that have become very good went through similar tough spells - it's how you react and come out the other side that determines if you'll make it. Hopefully Hameed does
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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 9:54 am

The calls for him would be based on not knowing just how much he shat the bed this season. A lot of people questioned why he was left out in the firsy place.
Certainly is good to seem him coming back and he still has a chance of a winter tour.

Alex Lees...remember the rage when he missed out for Lyth and Trott as openers? Now languishing in second XI cricket as well.

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Post by alfie on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 10:08 am

Yes ...a little different from , say , Root ; who lost his Test spot briefly after being sorted out by Johnson and Harris on his first trip to Australia ! Not quite the same as completely losing the plot in the county game...but certainly a few ups and downs are part of any young player's journey.
The character he displayed batting injured in India tells me he will come out the other side all right...just hope it doesn't take him too long.

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Post by guildfordbat on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 10:31 am

I share the same positive views and hopes as above about Hameed (although I wouldn't have expressed them the same way as Goose). If he can find again some form for Lancs in the CC, a recall against the West Indies in late summer might be in the interests of all.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 12:34 pm

guildfordbat wrote:I share the same positive views and hopes as above about Hameed (although I wouldn't have expressed them the same way as Goose). If he can find again some form for Lancs in the CC, a recall against the West Indies in late summer might be in the interests of all.

Totally agree on the thoughts re: West Indies series Guildford. Although you should never view a test series as "lesser", this might be one where the selectors have an early look at potential winter tour squad candidates - and maybe a few younger prospects. It'll be interesting to see how they handle it...

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 12:51 pm

Although Ive championed Stoneman I would say this ...his record suggests he's a pretty mediocre County pro who's having a good season. Much the same as Jennings last year, except hes young enough to sustain an improvement curve and woirth investing in. 
Stoneman would be a form selection, and not one for the long term. Which is fine in the short term but do I thinkl hes likely to go on to be the next Cook? Of course not. Likely not even a Chris Rogers. 
I felt the same when people were banging on about Hildreth last year off the back of a good season ... hes back to looking like no more than a decent County player again now.
Picking Ballance on form hasnt exactly worked out either.

Pesimistic view.

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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Wed 19 Jul 2017, 1:26 pm

Being a Durham player is two fold. Generally the riverside is a bowlers playground so bowling averages looks better than the bowlers actually are. For example Wood and Stokes in first class cricket average mid 20s with the ball but at Test level are up around an average of 35.

The opposite can said of batsmen. Jennings and Stoneman have moderate first class stats due to playing on such bowler friendly pitches.

My two cents

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