The Rugby Championship - Buildup

First topic message reminder :

Seeing as there's only 3 matches left in Super Rugby, time to start thinking about TRC

Fixtures:

The Australian squad are already in camp (except for their Brumbies' players), with all their Super Rugby commitments finished - Quade Cooper and Scott Higginbotham notable squad omissions, thought Quade may get a reprieve as Karmichael Hunt is out for the next 2 months

Wallabies Squad:

ebop wrote:Big loss is SA losing 57-0 to the ABs not a 5 point loss in a dead rubber. The ABs slept walked through that game. Good for Australia rugby though. They’re over the moon.

No International match is a dead rubber, especially between Aus & NZ. Maybe not a big loss in figures but psychologically thats got to hurt. Aus have not looked great and they've beat an almost full strength NZ side.

Hubris finally catching up with NZ and their 606 fans. Nice to see

No excuses the better side won on the day,Full strength side ?RUBBISH it was
a case of last man standing.
First choice 1,3,4.6,10,11 ,15 missing,then a wing has a finger dislocated,all year
AB`s have fielded replacements.
Who some how got them thru this time they really were scraping the barrel relatively
speaking.
Australia are showing real signs of improvement SA too this is good for the game.
As an AB supporter sorry that it was a loss,but apart from Mounga on the bench
and Kaino.Can`t see it could be much improved on Planet Rugby poll voted
Aus by1-10 sadly i was right

emack2 wrote:...Full strength side ?RUBBISH it was a case of last man standing.

I've never heard any All Black blame a loss on missing team mates, and I don't expect any of today's squad will either.

Agreed BUT my reply was in answer to Sgt.Pooleys it wasn't a full strength side it`s
the weakest since France 2009 first test.With the same narrow result traditionally
this match and this ground is Aus`s most successful one.

You could offer up a good argument to say tight head wing blind side and full back are your best options there.

Maybe so but you can`t graft the experience of the missing players onto
those who started.
With respect 15 Ben Smith,Isreal Dagg,Milner-Skudder,or Jordie/Baudey Barrett
before McKenzie at 15,Mounga at 10 as backup.
Brad Shields,Luke Whitelock,Elliott Dixon also options at 6/8,Todd over Cane at 7
etc.[but two of them are injured too]

You can't hold up a player who has made himself unavailable at 15 as missing really! And when you gt to todd over cane at 7 that's showing in black and white that you're putting your opinion over actual starters. It wasn't full strength but not far off. The main thing from the past couple of games is how much reliance nz have on retallick. He's the best lock and probably player in the world and the back up is a country mile away.

That's rubbish Emack. McKenzie and Squire are two of the form players in NZ right now. All Blacks missed Retallick and BB, any team would miss those world class players but ABs have capable guys to step in. It's worth noting that Chieka has tinkered with his Aus team a bit over the last few weeks. Good for him after the distasteful treatment from Kiwi fans and media.

Also I'm pretty sure we've heard the "weakest team since France 2009" a few times now.

"Dead rubber" "slept walked through the game".
These sorts of comments are insulting to both teams.

Australia were the better team today, if Foley had made all of his kicks, none of which were particularly difficult they would have been out of sight.

NZ aren't as good as everyone thinks they are, they are the best team in the world by some distance, but you can't win them all, as today proved.

David-Douglas wrote:"Dead rubber" "slept walked through the game".
These sorts of comments are insulting to both teams.

Australia were the better team today, if Foley had made all of his kicks, none of which were particularly difficult they would have been out of sight.

NZ aren't as good as everyone thinks they are, they are the best team in the world by some distance, but you can't win them all, as today proved.

Yes...we know that, more than you do actually. Foley missed two conversions, one of which was from the sideline, so yes, those are particularly difficult for his range, and one penalty...thats 'out if sight' for you? Five possibly seven points? Geez, what description does the 57-0 get? A word not invented yet perhaps?

Yes Oz deserved the match, they pressured and took thir chances better. ABs didnt respond, and particularly those replacing their more seasoned starters, didnt stand up individually enough to make the difference.

Hardly.Mackenzie is the form player at 10 for his province,15 would you really start
him before Ben Smith?
Fact is Havili is probably the only other option at 15 fit,at the moment,as was shown
a 10 who has just joined the squad not quite up to speed.
NZ have maybe half a dozen 10`s who can do a job,NOT replace BB.loose forwards
ditto etc.
Retalick/Romano next two Locks not available,Retalick/Whitelock are best pair
locks in world.Whitelock always overlooked.

You actually watch any super rugby now?

YES

A very late jump to sky then!

Been with sky sports for many.many years just updated to new 2tb ultra 3d box.

emack2 wrote:Been with sky sports for many.many years just updated to new 2tb ultra 3d box.

I used to have one of those but one of the back wheels fell off.

The sun'll come up tomorrow.....and you'll still have lost.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yop62wQH498

That win against the No1 ABs will boost Australia’s WR ranking. Presumably doesn’t get them above England though?

emack2 wrote:No excuses the better side won on the day,Full strength side ?RUBBISH it was
a case of last man standing.
First choice 1,3,4.6,10,11 ,15 missing,then a wing has a finger dislocated,all year
AB`s have fielded replacements.

Rubbish? Really?

The only players missing I would suggest that are nailed on starters are Retallick and Barrett. The rest are pretty close calls with players like McKenzie etc playing some sublime stuff of late. So I would suggest the comment "close to full strength" (which I made) was anything but rubbish.

Franks and Moody are starters so we’ve be running without our top props. And still nailing it.

Hey its tomorrow isn't it? Did the sun come out?

ebop wrote:Franks and Moody are starters so we’ve be running without our top props. And still nailing it.

Yea possibly Ebop. I think they're less nailed on these days than the other two but obviously more experienced. It was a bloody good NZ side, lets not take this away from Aus.

Sgt_Pooly, you know your scrums. Not sure if you’ve seen much of the RC but how do you think the ABs scrum has gone this year? I’d give a pass mark.

For sure, well done Australia, they wanted it more. From memory we struggle in this third test after already tucking the Cup away for another year. Will give Australia confidence going into the AIs and for that I’m actually ok with the loss as long as they kick on and do some damage over there.

ebop wrote:Sgt_Pooly, you know your scrums. Not sure if you’ve seen much of the RC but how do you think the ABs scrum has gone this year? I’d give a pass mark.

For sure, well done Australia, they wanted it more. From memory we struggle in this third test after already tucking the Cup away for another year. Will give Australia confidence going into the AIs and for that I’m actually ok with the loss as long as they kick on and do some damage over there.

I must admit epob, I've only seen the highlights so I'm not in a great position to comment. I've watched your TH come through the ranks for a number of years now and like the look of him, certainly somebody to push Franks.

How did you get on against Argentina in the set piece? They're obviously the best scrummaging outfit in the 4N.

Yeah, the Pumas have that reputation, and I admit I don’t know what players they’re missing, but their scrum hasn’t been very good in the RC.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

ebop wrote:Sgt_Pooly, you know your scrums. Not sure if you’ve seen much of the RC but how do you think the ABs scrum has gone this year? I’d give a pass mark.

For sure, well done Australia, they wanted it more. From memory we struggle in this third test after already tucking the Cup away for another year. Will give Australia confidence going into the AIs and for that I’m actually ok with the loss as long as they kick on and do some damage over there.

I must admit epob, I've only seen the highlights so I'm not in a great position to comment. I've watched your TH come through the ranks for a number of years now and like the look of him, certainly somebody to push Franks.

How did you get on against Argentina in the set piece? They're obviously the best scrummaging outfit in the 4N.

ABs havent lost a scrum on their own put in in 11 tests from what Ive heard, and that includes the Lions, so no, Argie were not the best scrummaging outfit. Not sure you know what youre talking about sometimes.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opinion/97492106/all-blacks-have-developed-into-the-worlds-best-scrummaging-side

Your scrum looks better without franks.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Your scrum looks better without franks.

Well he was thete through the Lions series, the one where he was supposed to be 'weak'...well that didnt happen, the AB scrum more than a measure for the Lions throughout the series.

It's a weaker aspect of his game. I think Sgt was right there and I think your scrum is stronger now. It's a shame sa are picking the tight head whose name is escaping me at the moment but whose main job seems to be giving scrum penalties away as it's brought all of the contests to a halt this year with them. Aus are aus. Not sure argentina have been that get either. They certainly got om top against the squad england put out in the summer though.

Taylorman wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Your scrum looks better without franks.

Well he was thete through the Lions series, the one where he was supposed to be 'weak'...well that didnt happen, the AB scrum more than a measure for the Lions throughout the series.

Gatland chose Mako Vunipola. Although he is a better scrummager than four years ago, he doesn't destroy opponents.

Taylorman wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

ebop wrote:Sgt_Pooly, you know your scrums. Not sure if you’ve seen much of the RC but how do you think the ABs scrum has gone this year? I’d give a pass mark.

For sure, well done Australia, they wanted it more. From memory we struggle in this third test after already tucking the Cup away for another year. Will give Australia confidence going into the AIs and for that I’m actually ok with the loss as long as they kick on and do some damage over there.

I must admit epob, I've only seen the highlights so I'm not in a great position to comment. I've watched your TH come through the ranks for a number of years now and like the look of him, certainly somebody to push Franks.

How did you get on against Argentina in the set piece? They're obviously the best scrummaging outfit in the 4N.

ABs havent lost a scrum on their own put in in 11 tests from what Ive heard, and that includes the Lions, so no, Argie were not the best scrummaging outfit. Not sure you know what youre talking about sometimes.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opinion/97492106/all-blacks-have-developed-into-the-worlds-best-scrummaging-side

Thanks for the compliment.

A NZ born reporter anonouncing on a NZ website that they have the best scrum in the world.......forgive me if I take that with a handful of salt.

You're point regarding NZ winning on their own ball means little to anything I have said in the past either. Newcastle Falcons(my team), regularly have the "best scrum" in the AP, usually with a figure of 90%+ completion.

I am not so happy to say that in reality, year after year, we have the worst scrummaging outfit in the league by some distance. Game after game, on opposition ball, we get walked back, collapse or get turned etc. On our own ball, we are a different proposition. We do not give the opposition time to attack us. The scrum half pops the ball in, the hooker hooks and the 8 picks up.

Every year it's the same story. We win games(not many) despite our scrum not because of it. We often lose territory and points because teams can target us in this area. That we've managed to be secure on our own ball is no mean feat and this is a similar area I would put the NZ scrum at, although perhaps not as bad.

I find the scrum contest fascinating and enjoy it as much as any other facet of the game, if not more tbh. To suggest I don't know what I'm talking about and then to quote completion rates, is quite funny to me, as I have the same discussion with some Falcons fans. There's a big difference between having a successful scrum to being a top scrummaging unit, NZ are the former imo. I hope you noted I didn't once attack you Taylor

I agree Franks isn't a great scrummager, but I don't think he's selected for his set-piece work, his work around the park though is fantastic for a TH.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Your scrum looks better without franks.

Well he was thete through the Lions series, the one where he was supposed to be 'weak'...well that didnt happen, the AB scrum more than a measure for the Lions throughout the series.

Gatland chose Mako Vunipola. Although he is a better scrummager than four years ago, he doesn't destroy opponents.

The Lions scrum was a massive disappointment, I agree. But.......it takes time to build a scrummaging unit and it's more than each of it's parts. I genuinely thought we'd have enough time to build something but I was wrong.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

ebop wrote:Sgt_Pooly, you know your scrums. Not sure if you’ve seen much of the RC but how do you think the ABs scrum has gone this year? I’d give a pass mark.

For sure, well done Australia, they wanted it more. From memory we struggle in this third test after already tucking the Cup away for another year. Will give Australia confidence going into the AIs and for that I’m actually ok with the loss as long as they kick on and do some damage over there.

I must admit epob, I've only seen the highlights so I'm not in a great position to comment. I've watched your TH come through the ranks for a number of years now and like the look of him, certainly somebody to push Franks.

How did you get on against Argentina in the set piece? They're obviously the best scrummaging outfit in the 4N.

ABs havent lost a scrum on their own put in in 11 tests from what Ive heard, and that includes the Lions, so no, Argie were not the best scrummaging outfit. Not sure you know what youre talking about sometimes.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opinion/97492106/all-blacks-have-developed-into-the-worlds-best-scrummaging-side

Thanks for the compliment.

A NZ born reporter anonouncing on a NZ website that they have the best scrum in the world.......forgive me if I take that with a handful of salt.

You're point regarding NZ winning on their own ball means little to anything I have said in the past either. Newcastle Falcons(my team), regularly have the "best scrum" in the AP, usually with a figure of 90%+ completion.

I am not so happy to say that in reality, year after year, we have the worst scrummaging outfit in the league by some distance. Game after game, on opposition ball, we get walked back, collapse or get turned etc. On our own ball, we are a different proposition. We do not give the opposition time to attack us. The scrum half pops the ball in, the hooker hooks and the 8 picks up.

Every year it's the same story. We win games(not many) despite our scrum not because of it. We often lose territory and points because teams can target us in this area. That we've managed to be secure on our own ball is no mean feat and this is a similar area I would put the NZ scrum at, although perhaps not as bad.

I find the scrum contest fascinating and enjoy it as much as any other facet of the game, if not more tbh. To suggest I don't know what I'm talking about and then to quote completion rates, is quite funny to me, as I have the same discussion with some Falcons fans. There's a big difference between having a successful scrum to being a top scrummaging unit, NZ are the former imo. I hope you noted I didn't once attack you Taylor

I agree Franks isn't a great scrummager, but I don't think he's selected for his set-piece work, his work around the park though is fantastic for a TH.

All good, though obviously Im going to take an article over someone who says a) that Franks is weak, and b) that the Argies had the best scrum in the 4N, noted though you didnt watch it...you couldnt have to say that anyway, as clearly they didnt. NZ pack dealt to them, and also the Bok props so with that and the Lions, the article does seem to have some merit, the scrum has been the single most consistently strong(er) AB function this year. All good. Will be interesting to see how the AIs go in that respect, with two relative newbies with no Franks or Moody.

You take what you want Taylor, I've no problem with that.

I didn't say the Argies had the best scrum this 4N, I've not seen much of the games so it wouldn't be fair to make that judgement. They've had a great scrummaging unit over the years though. So NZ really beat them up in the scrums? Or did you just win a lot of your own ball.......there's a difference.

You seem to be suggesting NZ were the dominant scrum? If so, well good on them. The scrum has generally been a weakness over the years for NZ, if they've come good this year the rest of us have problems(more so). Although Aus have proved they're far from unbeatable at the minute.

From my perspective, I do not think the AB's have a particularly strong scrum. What they have is a dynamic and effective scrum. Strong scrummaging teams use the scrum as a means to win penalties whilst dynamic and effective scrummaging teams use the scrum as a means to recycle the ball.

Having played all my career in the backs, I have very little knowledge of forwards play, I have played behind both styles and I can tell you I would prefer to play behind a dynamic and effective scrum pack.

The AB pack is not only effective in the scrums it makes them more mobile around the park.

The reactions have been totally predictable,in the NZ media when they lose
turn on the coaching team.
NH saying NZ in decline talking up the winning sides etc.this match favourite
ground,favourite Ref,dead rubber etc.
Define dominant Scrum,one as in final RC match,every Scrum collapsed as
occurred insome England v Australia series 2016.
Certain refs Peyper,Garces,Barnes pedantic in this area,penalties awarded
by the numbers.
The NZ Scrum hasn't lost on its own ball for so long can`t remember,Franks
is more than capable against all he`s met.
This myth NZ Scrum is weak hasn't been true since half way thru 1949,
and has matched all comers 2015-to date.
Constant tinkering with the laws plus the machinations of the front row
mafia means Refs are final arbiters there.
Ai`s indications are that the 37 man squad will be very inexperienced
relatively speaking.More losses could indeed be to 2009 proportions.
Just maybe NONE of the SH sides will be the walkover the NH sides expect

What's funny?

Good to hear you can finally watch the side you chose to support all those years ago. Must have suck to just follow them through the papers.

You really are a hoot I've watched every Nz game that was on bbc,itv,sky,even espn.
My eyes tell me what i wish to know,not the commentary that's about 64 years,i
read papers.sites like this.
Often wonder if there watching the same game,all teams get away with whatever
they can.
The laws now are getting silly when you can`t compete for the ball or tackle
without risking a card.
That the criteria changes from week to week and players often unaware of
changes in protocols.
Simplification?go back to original definitions/rules for scrums/lineouts/rucks/marks
instead of changing every week.

Well I doubt you did watch them all as you've said in the past you didn't have sky. But seriously what's so funny about the nh being slightly better than the south at the moment? As someone from England yourself I'm sure you've seen plenty of the teams here and as a group I'd say they're slightly better. First teams certainly though there isn't the depth of the south Africans or nz.

In the past I said i didn't have access to matches NOT on SKY,that was
just 3 matches in last AI`s shown on ESPn/BTsports.etc.
To clarify I've seen as said ALL THE ABOVE FOR YEARS had SKY Sports since
it`s inception.

Riiiiight. Still must suck all those years not watching your adopted team.

But whats funny about your nh neighbours now being a shade above the south africa s of the world?

What i love is how they turn on their own at every chance....did ti to Gats and lets face NZ doesn't export (except a lot fo their rugby players) much to the world and is essentially a backwater on the international stage bar rugby. You would think they would be proud of him!
The NZ rugby team lose so they start to drill into individual weaknesses to make excuses, instead of acknowledging they got beat by a better side they try and find some component that needs replacing instead of accepting that it is their very nature to be arrogant and there is a systemic problem with that and always has been.

Three matches missed in 64 years hey that sucks? Australia were the
better side on the night just.
So they were in the RC game 2015 but the following week was a blow out,Bledisloe
2018.Two home games for the AB`s and OZ are on the bullseye for the Blackness
then.
Many teams since 1995 have won games against them but seldom consistently
England once every 10 years,Ireland once,France 4 times,Sa 25,Oz26,lions 1.Thats
not arrogance it`s history.

Only 3 nz matches weren't shown on British TV since the 60s. Not sure that's true emack. I guess all those stats are why you don't support your own nation.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:You take what you want Taylor, I've no problem with that.

I didn't say the Argies had the best scrum this 4N, I've not seen much of the games so it wouldn't be fair to make that judgement. They've had a great scrummaging unit over the years though. So NZ really beat them up in the scrums? Or did you just win a lot of your own ball.......there's a difference.

You seem to be suggesting NZ were the dominant scrum? If so, well good on them. The scrum has generally been a weakness over the years for NZ, if they've come good this year the rest of us have problems(more so). Although Aus have proved they're far from unbeatable at the minute.

Okay,
You decide, argie test:

Nepo Laulala 8: Ensuring the Argentina scrum back-pedalled often should be a badge of honour for the tighthead prop. Good contributor in the tight.

Dane Coles 7: Not the dangerous player on attack we have been accustomed to, but did his core roles well.

Kane Hames 8: Scrummaged well and showed better discipline around the park. Won a big penalty in a 5m scrum just before halftime.

Now dont know about you but winning our own ball doesnt seem to reflect those comments does it?

And how has it been weak? Weve not been able to winour own ball perhaps, using your description of course.

NZ test was similar, as it almost was vs Lions, and the Boks. One scrum vs the Wallabies went back so fast genia was able to split the other way past our backs running firward with the scrum.

You might need to update your position on the NZ scrum if you want to have any credibility in discussing it, especially if its in a poor light. For now, Ill go with the NZ paper on that one.

And oz? We didnt lose because of the scrum. Having Barrett, Ben Smith, Retallick, out didnt help, but not offering excuses there, oz were too good...just not in the scrums. No one currently is.

Ah Taylor.......you do like your articles. Well you've managed to cherry pick a random rating which means very little obviously.

No reasonable poster can gauge something on a few token quotes from articles, I'll get round to the game at some point.

If you look back, I actually said I rated Laulala, he's a much better scrummager than Franks who is not really Int class in the set piece. The NZ scrum has been a weakness since the Hayman days imo. If it's magically come good this season, I'm genuinely happy for you. Nothing better than a contest in the tight!

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Ah Taylor.......you do like your articles. Well you've managed to cherry pick a random rating which means very little obviously.

No reasonable poster can gauge something on a few token quotes from articles, I'll get round to the game at some point.

If you look back, I actually said I rated Laulala, he's a much better scrummager than Franks who is not really Int class in the set piece. The NZ scrum has been a weakness since the Hayman days imo. If it's magically come good this season, I'm genuinely happy for you. Nothing better than a contest in the tight!

Well Ill just go back to you dont know what youre talking about then, as you havent added anything to this, just inflated, incorrect and outdated commentary, making your rating kinda irrelevant. A vague reference to Hayman, no knowledge of this years scrum at all, and thats it?

Pfff, a waste of time.

Is the expertise normally this profound in the NH?

Just calm yourself down Taylor, I don't know why you get so hot and bothered.

If you look back at the comments, I asked epob how your scrum had been going as I'd not seen much of the 4N. It was you that waded in with a personal attack, suggesting I don't know what I'm talking about.

I openly admitted I hadn't seen if the NZ scrum had improved and had asked the question how it was getting on.

I don't come on here to wum or look for bites, I have better things to do with my time.

We must bow to your superior knowledge of Scrum technique.Try this Franks,Owen
"relatively small in stature,noted for his Outstanding Scrummaging Technique,mobility,
and great body strength" Tighthead,[29]first capped 2009-,96caps.Wikipedia.
A short back is an advantage in a prop,come to strength at 30 plus,longest serving
forwards usually up to age 37.
As to your pedantic ideas of my not watching AB matches had a multi sat system
before Sky.Had Sky subscription ever since Sky started covering Rugby,those not
covered by them.Were covered by BBC or Itv until last year when I missed 3 AI matches
same this year for France section probably.Have watched .listened,or seen most since
1963-4.Saw live 1953-4 AB`s twice,1963=4AB`s,1958 Wallabies,1960BOKS.
YOU say i don`t support my native sides England/Scotland can`t be bothered to
answer this AGAIN