2017/18 Aviva Premiership Round Four

Friday 22nd September

Gloucester vs Worcester (19:45)

Saturday 23rd September

Bath Vs Newcastle (15:00)
Harlequins vs Leicester (15:00)
Saracens vs Sale (15:00)

Sunday 24th September

Exeter vs Wasps (15:00)
London Irish vs Northampton (15:00)

Hhmmm

Gloucester should easily manage a bp win against Wuss unless they massively screw up.

Bath again should manage a pretty comfy bp win against Falcons unless they too screw up.

Quins v Tigers I have at 50/50, neither have been consistent so far and either could easily steal a win due to the other team screwing up.

Saracens should manage a comfy win v Sale, probably with a bp too.

Exeter v Wasps is another 50/50 with the home side taking it.

Irish should be able to wrestle a win from a pretty one dimensional Saints.

yappysnap wrote:Irish should be able to wrestle a win from a pretty one dimensional Saints.

Is this a joke? They just lost 37-7 and 36-7 while we beat Bath 24-6 and Leicester 24-11.

Agree with most of that Yappy. Other than LI vs Saints. Depends what Saints team rocks up. The scrum is poor but outside of that they seem to have a game plan that works. Opening game aside they've been good and even with their limited backline play may prove to physical for LI. That should be an interesting game.

Scottrf wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Irish should be able to wrestle a win from a pretty one dimensional Saints.

Is this a joke? They just lost 37-7 and 36-7 while we beat Bath 24-6 and Leicester 24-11.

It is important to note that Irish's loses were on the road and Saints' wins at home. I agree slightly with Yappy about the one dimensional aspect of Saints; whilst the score looked good against Bath it was pretty insipid, especially the aimless kicking by 36.1. Personally, I think Saints will be the only team to get an away win this weekend, but it'll be a very close game.

HongKongCherry wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Irish should be able to wrestle a win from a pretty one dimensional Saints.

Is this a joke? They just lost 37-7 and 36-7 while we beat Bath 24-6 and Leicester 24-11.

It is important to note that Irish's loses were on the road and Saints' wins at home.  I agree slightly with Yappy about the one dimensional aspect of Saints; whilst the score looked good against Bath it was pretty insipid, especially the aimless kicking by 36.1. Personally, I think Saints will be the only team to get an away win this weekend, but it'll be a very close game.

Yes but home vs away isn't a 50 point swing. Mallinders kicking being poor and a win by 18 against Bath I see more as a positive than negative. We are definitely the most underrated team in the league this season.

Nalaga is starting for Irish this weekend so I am looking forward to that more than anything. Saints big favourites but if Irish play like they did v Quins we have a chance.

How are the injuries to Harrison and Eadie? Saints game is based around their forwards winning the contact and driving them forwards, draw the penalty and kick to the corner for the lineout or exploit the narrowing defence by going wide. It's a simple game plan that fell apart when Sarries stopped them on the gain line. If LI can stop Saints in the gain line and keep thir discipline then it's game on. Saints scrum has been poor and they have a centre at flyhalf so plan B is still in development. Having said that having Mallinder and Burrell playing 10 and 12 and charging into the LI 10 and 12 if it's Marshall and Tonks could work well.

formerly known as Sam wrote:How are the injuries to Harrison and Eadie? Saints game is based around their forwards winning the contact and driving them forwards, draw the penalty and kick to the corner for the lineout or exploit the narrowing defence by going wide. It's a simple game plan that fell apart when Sarries stopped them on the gain line. If LI can stop Saints in the gain line and keep thir discipline then it's game on. Saints scrum has been poor and they have a centre at flyhalf so plan B is still in development. Having said that having Mallinder and Burrell playing 10 and 12 and charging into the LI 10 and 12 if it's Marshall and Tonks could work well.

Well Myler/Francis are supposedly ready to play this weekend, which should be an improvement on Mallinder (who has terrible decision making for a 10).

Harrison should also be fit, as well as Hartley and Wood. Eadie I think still out.

LI lost some key players to injury last week so it's going to be tougher than it would already have been ...

Interesting debate on Irish vs. Saints. The bookies have Saints as favourites and I've never met a poor one yet, however it does depend on which version of each side turn up. It sounds obvious and it is, but if the round one versions of the two sides appear, then I reckon Irish win the game. That was our last 'home' game and Saints last away one, so it will be interesting to see if that is a factor for both teams.

We have been poor in our last two games away from home, and if we perform like that again this week the result will be a similar battering.

The big concern for us is that our first two choice looseheads are both injured, leaving us with a young and inexperienced Harry Elrington or a just back from a year out injured Tom Smallbone in that position. We have a lot more depth and experience at tighthead and I wonder if we may see Franks move across and start the game in the number 1 jersey.

I'm also concerned about our back row and centres

Saints will smash the Dolphins next weekend.

as for the Irish/Saints game the Saints will walk it as long as they have good support to con the Ref into giving them penalties and to get away with closing the lineout gap for 80mins.

Scottrf, if they could return in tandem it would be a God chance to get them game time at 10 and 12 this weekend and move Mallinder to the bench. Having kicking options at 10 and 12 and kicking to the corners for the Saints lineout to disrupt is a sound strategy. Francis is in the England training squad so it'll be interesting to see how he gets on.

Ozzy the Saints scrum has been poor so far so prop isn't necessarily the biggest worry. Tigers pushed the Saints scrum round FG easily until we were down to 14.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Scottrf, if they could return in tandem it would be a God chance to get them game time at 10 and 12 this weekend and move Mallinder to the bench. Having kicking options at 10 and 12 and kicking to the corners for the Saints lineout to disrupt is a sound strategy. Francis is in the England training squad so it'll be interesting to see how he gets on.

Ozzy the Saints scrum has been poor so far so prop isn't necessarily the biggest worry. Tigers pushed the Saints scrum round FG easily until we were down to 14.

I don't think that will happen though. Burrell and Horne have started well. I think more likely one of them is rested or benched. But yeah I noticed we got a couple of steals at least last week.

Might be one dimensional but #1 in the table for carries and #2 in metres made and clean breaks.

Can't deny our scrum has been poor. Maybe JFR will feature.

Based on the A team we are putting out against Bristol tonight I am 99% certain that Franks will be at loosehead on Sunday.

Well for the falcons...get the fat Fijian matavesi as far away from our midfield as possible,....and get JP Socino back in starting!!

And secondly we have to actually try to attack!!! Against Sale we sat back and defended...and defended and defended...and scraped a victory.

Against Saracens we showed no miniscule attempt to actually get at them!!

WTF is going on with our management. We need to ATTACK to win games!!!!

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well for the falcons...get the fat Fijian matavesi as far away from our midfield as possible,....and get JP Socino back in starting!!

And secondly we have to actually try to attack!!! Against Sale we sat back and defended...and defended and defended...and scraped a victory.

Against Saracens we showed no miniscule attempt to actually get at them!!

WTF is going on with our management. We need to ATTACK to win games!!!!

Especially with your backline.

HongKongCherry wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Irish should be able to wrestle a win from a pretty one dimensional Saints.

Is this a joke? They just lost 37-7 and 36-7 while we beat Bath 24-6 and Leicester 24-11.

It is important to note that Irish's loses were on the road and Saints' wins at home.  I agree slightly with Yappy about the one dimensional aspect of Saints; whilst the score looked good against Bath it was pretty insipid, especially the aimless kicking by 36.1. Personally, I think Saints will be the only team to get an away win this weekend, but it'll be a very close game.

This was my thinking. Irish will probably be targeting their home games this season, so I think they'll be a bit more combative then the two previous. Saints struggle when teams stand up to their forwards so they have a good chance there.

Leicester Tiger (v Harlequins, away, Saturday 3.00pm)
15 Telusa Veainu       
14 Nick Malouf
13 Matt Smith
12 Matt Toomua        
11 Jonny May
10 George Ford         
9 Ben Youngs
1 Ellis Genge  
2 Tom Youngs (c)
3 Dan Cole     
4 Harry Wells
5 Dom Barrow
6 Mike Williams
7 Dominic Ryan
8 Sione Kalamafoni   
 
Replacements
16 Harry Thacker      
17 Greg Bateman
18 Logovi’i Mulipola   
19 Luke Hamilton
20 Valentino Mapapalangi     
21 Sam Harrison
22 Joe Ford
23 Mathew Tait

A fair few changes for us this week...

London Irish: 15 Tommy Bell, 14 Alex Lewington, 13 Aseli Tikoirotuma, 12 Johnny Williams, 11 Napolioni Nalaga, 10 James Marshall, 9 Brendan McKibbin, 1 Ben Franks (c), 2 Dave Porecki, 3 Petrus Du Plessis, 4 Franco van der Merwe, 5 Sebastian De Chaves, 6 Josh McNally, 7 Conor Gilsenan, 8 Blair Cowan

Replacements: 16 David Paice, 17 Harry Elrington, 18 Ollie Hoskins, 19 Teofilo Paulo, 20 Jake Schatz, 21 Scott Steele, 22 Greig Tonks, 23 Topsy Ojo

Not sure Dom Ryan deserves a start over Hamilton personally presume it's a tactical choice. Shame there's no sig  of Evans. Looking forward to seeing Mapapalangi off the bench again.

Ozzy3213 wrote:The big concern for us is that our first two choice looseheads are both injured, leaving us with a young and inexperienced Harry Elrington or a just back from a year out injured Tom Smallbone in that position.  We have a lot more depth and experience at tighthead and I wonder if we may see Franks move across and start the game in the number 1 jersey.

It's worth a shot; it's surprising how a really good tighthead can often play well at loosehead. Adam Jones swapped sides for Quins in two games last year and was magnificent. He cemented his place as a fan favourite and future Quins legend with those two games alone.

Scottrf wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well for the falcons...get the fat Fijian matavesi as far away from our midfield as possible,....and get JP Socino back in starting!!

And secondly we have to actually try to attack!!! Against Sale we sat back and defended...and defended and defended...and scraped a victory.

Against Saracens we showed no miniscule attempt to actually get at them!!

WTF is going on with our management. We need to ATTACK to win games!!!!

Especially with your backline.

Exactly!!

15 Ahsee Tuala
14 George North
13 Rob Horne
12 Luther Burrell
11 Tom Collins
10 Harry Mallinder
9 Nic Groom
1 Alex Waller
2 Mikey Haywood
3 Paul Hill
4 Michael Paterson
5 David Ribbans
6 Courtney Lawes (capt)
7 Jamie Gibson
8 Sam Dickinson

16 Reece Marshall
17 Campese Ma’afu
18 Kieran Brookes
19 Christian Day
20 Lewis Ludlam
21 Cobus Reinach
22 James Grayson
23 Ben Foden

So no Francis Myler or Harrison despite previous reports..

Franks has started for the All Blacks at loosehead hasn't he? He'll be fine!

I think Franks was primarily a loosehead anyway, so I'm sure he can cope with Paul Hill. More worried about the Saints backline cutting us to shreds!

I'm not concerned about Franks at loosehead, he was always better there than at tighthead in my opinion. My major concern is a lack of carrying in our pack. We are going to be very reliant on Williams and Nalaga to get us over the gainline.

The back row in particular looks to be set up top be defensive, which is fine if it works like it did against Quins and creates lots of turnover ball, as we certainly have the backs to exploit that. However, if we let Saints forwards get over the gainline with any regularity then it is going to be a very long afternoon.

Gloucester vs Worcester (19:45)
Win for Gloucester here by 5-7 points.

Bath Vs Newcastle (15:00)
If Newcastle actually play how they can it will be close, otherwise going to be Bath all the way

Harlequins vs Leicester (15:00)
Think Leicester might get an away win here by fine margins

Saracens vs Sale (15:00)
Well as much as I would love us to put one over Saracens I think this will be a handy win for the hosts

Exeter vs Wasps (15:00)
Match of the week for me, going to go with Home advantage, but should be an delight to see.....now I have said that watch it be a penalty ridden match.

London Irish vs Northampton (15:00)
Be interesting but think Saints will dominate up front and win on the road.

Away from the Irish v Saints game, I'm hoping for a big win for Gloucester tonight, but I am slightly nervous as they have been pants for the past two weeks. I'm hoping that the Kingsholm factor kicks in and they absolutely batter Worcester and send them home with nothing.

In the other games I'm going for wins for Bath, Tigers, Saracens and Chiefs.

Quins have got 2 locks on the bench....looking really short in the back row dept.

So people are mainly expecting a Tigers win this weekend?

Looking at the teams Quins look good enough to get a win against Leicester.

propdavid_london wrote:Quins have got 2 locks on the bench....looking really short in the back row dept.

Especially with how ropey are starting hooker has been, means Ward probably can't cover. Perhaps Glynn can? I know nothing about him.

Ward will be covering hooker, think Grey still out with injury.
Glynn has been coming off the bench in all games so far...think he may have even started in the double header. I presume that he is covering back row with Charlie Matthews on the bench!

Glynn signed from Bristol, cover for the long term injured Sam Twomey - that's all I know really. U-18's age grade honours.
Looks like a solid enough player - if nothing spectacular! Quins Lineout hasn't really functioned with any combination of hooker or jumpers (last week outstanding).

yappysnap wrote:So people are mainly expecting a Tigers win this weekend?

Looking at the teams Quins look good enough to get a win against Leicester.

Given that Tigers effectively beat themselves in the first week and didn't turn up in the second there's every chance that Quins can win it. I'm a little surprised there's so many going for an away win.

Both sides have got some ball carrying options on the bench which will make the second half interesting. The midfield battle will be another highlight after Toomua and Smith hammered Scott and Trinder all over Welford Rd in the first half last weekend (Smith did it on his own in the second half). That and two England training camp 10's going head to head.

Robshaw vs Williams at 6 should be worth a watch, contrasting styles and both trying to catch Eddie Jones eye.

Lewis Boyce will be another one to watch - 2016 U20s (presume a loosehead).
Bit of a baptism for him against tigers - will probably get on as Lambert will last about 60mins.

yappysnap wrote:So people are mainly expecting a Tigers win this weekend?

Looking at the teams Quins look good enough to get a win against Leicester.

I'd put Quins slight favourites. But you never know with Quins.

Indeed - you never know with Quins. If they bring aggression of last weekend then it will be a competitive game and a good one to watch.

propdavid_london wrote:Indeed - you never know with Quins. If they bring  aggression of last weekend then it will be a competitive game and a good one to watch.

I hope so. There are exciting match ups across the pitch - particularly 10-12-13, which could well be one of the places where the game is won and lost.

propdavid_london wrote:Lewis Boyce will be another one to watch - 2016 U20s (presume a loosehead).
Bit of a baptism for him against tigers - will probably get on as Lambert will last about 60mins.

Not really, Cole has been coming off after 60 mins for Mulipola. Logo is a big and string but has been held by technical players in the past. As long as Boyce gets his body angles right he should be ok, with Rowntree there to guide him he'll be ok. If he was starting against Cole then that would be a more awkward prospect for him. Given Sinckler is in the bench and our third choice Bateman is playing his first season at loosehead I wonder how long they'll try to keep Genge out there.

Lots of injuries in the bath team, especially in back and front row.

Bath Rugby team to face Newcastle Falcons

15. Freddie Burns
14. Semesa Rokoduguni
13. Jonathan Joseph
12. Max Clark
11. Matt Banahan
10. Rhys Priestland
9. Chris Cook

1. Nick Auterac
2. Jack Walker
3. Anthony Perenise
4. Luke Charteris
5. Elliott Stooke
6. Charlie Ewels
7. Francois Louw (c)
8. Paul Grant

Replacements
16. Tom Dunn
17. Beno Obano
18. Scott Andrews
19. James Phillips
20. Zach Mercer
21. Darren Allinson
22. Ben Tapuai
23. Aled Brew

Falcons

15 Simon Hammersley
14 Vereniki Goneva
13 Chris Harris
12 Juan Pablo Socino
11 DTH van der Merwe
10 Craig Willis
9 Sonatane Takulua

1 Rob Vickers
2 Santiago Socino
3 Jon Welsh
4 Calum Green
5 Will Witty
6 Mark Wilson
7 Will Welch (captain)
8 Nili Latu

Replacements
16 Scott Lawson
17 Sami Mavinga
18 Trevor Davison
19 Sean Robinson
20 Ally Hogg
21 Sam Stuart
22 Joel Hodgson
23 Josh Matavesi


With that back line if we don't take off the breaks and attack I give up!!!

However once again I cant help thinking that pack is set up to defend with few carriers or game changers!!

Gloucester vs Worcester
I think the Cherries to win but closer than some of saying even with Wuss off field issues added to their poor start as I think they ill have targeted this game before the season started as one where they could maybe pick up away points.

Bath Vs Newcastle (15:00)
Bath win as they are strong at home but not by a huge amount. Newcastle have looked good in defence and have picked a better looking starting 15 attack-wise this week.

Harlequins vs Leicester (15:00)
Home win as Quins are usually better at the Stoop but not much in it.

Saracens vs Sale (15:00)
Comfortable home win.

Exeter vs Wasps (15:00)
Home win, bad time for Wasps to have injury issues. Can see Chiefs even getting the bonus point.

London Irish vs Northampton (15:00)
Nervous for this game as LI will be targetting the home win. With both Eadie and Harrison out injured Saints lack carrying options in the pack. I've picked narrow away win on Superbru but think that's my Saints bias coming through. Wouldn't be unlike Saints to slip up against one of the less fancied sides.

Controversial. Tom Savage knocked out, doctor says no point in having a HIA so there's no replacement allowed for the last ten minutes. Had the doctor not been certainly  there would have been a HIA and a replacement would be allowed. Should the doctor be more savvy and say HIA required and then instantly fail him the minute they get in the changing rooms? Would mean your team has 15 on the field and injured party is still off it receiving treatment.

Dave Denton really is Poopie. Can't believe he's managed to mess that up all he had to do was take it in and recycle and the next phase had the backs in for the winning try. His agent must be a genius.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Controversial. Tom Savage knocked out, doctor says no point in having a HIA so there's no replacement allowed for the last ten minutes. Had the doctor not been certainly  there would have been a HIA and a replacement would be allowed. Should the doctor be more savvy and say HIA required and then instantly fail him the minute they get in the changing rooms? Would mean your team has 15 on the field and injured party is still off it receiving treatment.

It's unfortunate for Gloucester but I'm not quite sure why the commentary were so quick to act like it's some kind of great injustice and demand that WR immediately change the laws. If you're knocked out you're off, it's no different than if a player tears a ligament or breaks a leg - if you use all your subs tactically you run that risk.

God I hate supporting Glaws at times.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Dave Denton really is Poopie. Can't believe he's managed to mess that up all he had to do was take it in and recycle and the next phase had the backs in for the winning try. His agent must be a genius.

Yep. Total dog. Was absolutely delighted when we managed to offload him mid contract

Odd the Worcester fans on their board seem to think he played a blinder (paraphrased) ...