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Ulster Rugby 2017-18

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Post by geoff999rugby Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:35 am

First topic message reminder :

Rory Best (hamstring)
Marcell Coetzee (knee)
Craig Gilroy (back)
Chris Henry (larynx)
Rob Lyttle (shoulder)
Al O'Connor (concussion)
Jared Payne (headaches)
Dave Shanahan (hamstring)
Nick Timoney (ankle)
Schalk van der Merwe (shoulder)

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Post by marty2086 Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:42 am

One thing is for sure, you can't say Ulster aren't fighting to win the game

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Post by Pete330v2 Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:43 am

Get out of jail free card officially used.
Ulster are utterly embarrassing, plucky amateurs would have played much better.

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Post by clivemcl Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:45 am

I’ve never had to think about this before... is there another bonus point for the second set of four tries? Headscratch

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Post by Golden Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:46 am

Bizarre game. Why were they running that ball at the end? Kick it out!

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Post by marty2086 Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:48 am

Golden wrote:Bizarre game. Why were they running that ball at the end? Kick it out!

Why were they running it before the clock went red?

Pick and go and just run the clock out




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Post by clivemcl Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:03 am

Remember previous years where we were saying 'no point worrying about Europe, just focus on Pro12'. Well this year I'm like 'no point worrying about Pro14, let's just try get that challenge cup spot....
Rolling Eyes

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Post by geoff999rugby Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:08 am

Ferris was very forthright in the studio, clearly hold Logan in contempt.

Talked of the story they were told 5 years ago about being world leaders which he later alluded to as being a ludicrous statement.
When asked if had seen any improvement in the last 5 years he said No.
Talked of there being a need for a complete root and branch change in the set up


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Post by geoff999rugby Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:18 am

But Ulster got their seventh and match-winning try when Bristol-bound forward Robbie Diack powered over in the 77th minute.

This is the last sentence in the BBC report.
News to me - will have to investigate.
Is it true or have they mixed him up with Charlie ?

Would seem bizarre for a number of reasons.
Following Hendo going public a bit worrying as well

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Post by The Great Aukster Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:46 am

Is it better to have a leader who sets challenging targets and fails than someone with no ambition carefully setting the bar low to keep their job. Logan has had seven years to deliver the promises that many thought impossible. and since he has failed it is right that he should be under the microscope. Or perhaps more correctly those who appointed him should be considering his position. Logan isn't a quitter so won't walk away, therefore if he is really the problem those he reports to should be acting.
OTOH Logan was never appointed to manage the rugby side of UR - the side that has consistently flattered to deceive. So who should be given the heave-ho? Les Kiss would seem the most obvious candidate as Ulster are going backwards at a rate of knots. He would probably argue that the stock of players he is now having to work with are far from top notch - so that's Cunningham's domain. Gibbes has been worryingly quiet for a head coach since his arrival and the forwards are literally going backwards.
Maybe JG deserves another season, but he will have to get used to a new CEO, DoR and OD because if Ferris is to be heeded they all have to go.

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Post by geoff999rugby Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:56 am

Setting targets without changing a flawed set up is, as Ferris said ludicrous
The whole structure at Ulster needs changing and Logan has to take some of the blame of the failure to do so.
It is not just about the rugby itself failing, as Ferris said the whole edifice needs rebuilding.
Logan was appointed to run the whole show with a rugby expert as his righthand man.
He claims that Les Kiss is the best thing since sliced bread - you don't have to be a rugby expert to know that is complete and utter cowpat so why say it.
He is either guilty of poor judgement or vacuous words - either way not good.

The thing that really gets my goat though is he was seen everywhere when things were going well but now, as I have said, he is more elusive than the Scarlet Pimpernel.
That smacks of weak management

You clearly think he is not part of the problem - for me he is most definitely part of the problem.
The edifice needs bringing down and rebuilt and Logan, and Kiss, must go along with it.
It wont happen and I am certain we will see a number of years ahead of continued failure and, probably, further decline under Logan.
Are we constrained by the IRFU - Yes, but you cant blame them for everything - we have no excuses for not being as good as Munster.

As Ferris said, since that speech, there has been no progress. In fact the complete opposite - that is a damning indictment.
It is why I will tear up my Season Ticket next year, it is why Season Ticket sales fell by 1000 this year and why they will fall next year.
The road ahead is not great - the party is over and we weren't even smart enough, unlike Leinster and Munster, to make hay whilst the going was good.

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Post by Kingshu Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:03 am

Leinster have been having a good season and looking back to thier old selves, while its Ulster in crisis. But when all is said and done we are ahead of them in the table. Which has to count for simething going right.
Are we maybe being a bit harsh and should give the new team more time?

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Post by geoff999rugby Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:43 am

Don't think so

Leinster are top of their European group, Ulster are third

Leinster have played 3 at home, in thePro14, Ulster have played 5

Leinster have played away to Dragons, Kings, Cheetahs, Glasgow, Ulster
Ulster have played away to Treviso, Zebre, Kings

Basically the table lies.
Leinster have played 3 of their hard away games, Ulster have played none.
Ulster have to go to Dragons, Connacht, Leinster, Munster, Scarlets, Edinburgh, Cardiff

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Post by Rory_Gallagher Sat Nov 04, 2017 10:46 am

geoff999rugby wrote:But Ulster got their seventh and match-winning try when Bristol-bound forward Robbie Diack powered over in the 77th minute.

This is the last sentence in the BBC report.
News to me - will have to investigate.
Is it true or have they mixed him up with Charlie ?

Would seem bizarre for a number of reasons.
Following Hendo going public a bit worrying as well

I'm almost sure I heard Jim Neilly say the same thing during the match commentary.

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Post by Artful_Dodger Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:03 am

I was the biggest doomsayer before the season started. It's been much better than I though but only because of our foreign contingent. Without Piutau alone we'd have had 2 or 3 more losses this season already.

The thing is, turn the academy issue around and our problems aren't that severe. The first team is good without being exceptional. I actually think we can still get out of this CC group, win home games and try and get something away against two English sides that are looking pretty shakey (Wasps just lost at home to Newcastle Falcons) and we can get out of it. As Kingshu has pointed out, second in the conference in the Pro14. It isn't that bad, but does being plucky challengers that are unlikely to compete for silverware constitute being in crisis? I suppose it might especially when Logan and Kiss are so questionable.

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Post by Rory_Gallagher Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:09 am

Artful_Dodger wrote:I was the biggest doomsayer before the season started.  It's been much better than I though but only because of our foreign contingent.  Without Piutau alone we'd have had 2 or 3 more losses this season already.

The thing is, turn the academy issue around and our problems aren't that severe.  The first team is good without being exceptional.  I actually think we can still get out of this CC group, win home games and try and get something away against two English sides that are looking pretty shakey (Wasps just lost at home to Newcastle Falcons) and we can get out of it.  As Kingshu has pointed out, second in the conference in the Pro14.  It isn't that bad, but does being plucky challengers that are unlikely to compete for silverware constitute being in crisis?  I suppose it might especially when Logan and Kiss are so questionable.  

I think this is a pretty key point. Piatau gets some stick at times, but he has literally won games for us. He is certainly covering over a lot of the cracks at Ulster, and we would not be second in the conference without him. The only player who seems capable of creating space consistency, whether for himself or others. Stockdale as well, I suppose.

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Post by The Great Aukster Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:53 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Setting targets without changing a flawed set up is, as Ferris said ludicrous
The whole structure at Ulster needs changing and Logan has to take some of the blame of the failure to do so.
It is not just about the rugby itself failing, as Ferris said the whole edifice needs rebuilding.
Logan was appointed to run the whole show with a rugby expert as his righthand man.
He claims that Les Kiss is the best thing since sliced bread - you don't have to be a rugby expert to know that is complete and utter cowpat so why say it.
He is either guilty of poor judgement or vacuous words - either way not good.

The thing that really gets my goat though is he was seen everywhere when things were going well but now, as I have said, he is more elusive than the Scarlet Pimpernel.
That smacks of weak management

You clearly think he is not part of the problem - for me he is most definitely part of the problem.
The edifice needs bringing down and rebuilt and Logan, and Kiss, must go along with it.
It wont happen and I am certain we will see a number of years ahead of continued failure and, probably, further decline under Logan.
Are we constrained by the IRFU - Yes, but you cant blame them for everything - we have no excuses for not being as good as Munster.

As Ferris said, since that speech, there has been no progress. In fact the complete opposite - that is a damning indictment.
It is why I will tear up my Season Ticket next year, it is why Season Ticket sales fell by 1000 this year and why they will fall next year.
The road ahead is not great - the party is over and we weren't even smart enough, unlike Leinster and Munster, to make hay whilst the going was good.

If Logan was employed solely to manage the commercial side of the business then he should be given a pat on the back and those faceless people who appointed him should be feeling the heat. If as seems more likely he was employed to oversee the whole shebang then he has to be facing the music. What I don't understand is why Logan and Kiss get all the stick when Cunningham has been on the scene longer than Kiss and gets off scot free? The recruitment has been a joke which is the Operation Director's responsibility, and he was Logan's man so he should certainly go with Logan and Kiss if there is to be a clear out. Then there are all the other staff responsible for the rugby being churned out like Malone and Campbell who again if judged by the same yardstick are not fit for purpose.

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Post by geoff999rugby Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:02 pm

Logan manages everything not just the Commercial side.
He appoints people, along with the committee(s), to run the rugby side of things.
Logan told us he was going to make us the best rugby team in the World inside 10 years.
Either he has a roll effecting the rugby or he doesn't - cant have it both ways.

Cunningham is giving a remit to sign a certain type of player for a certain amount of money.
Sometimes the coaching staff target a specific player.
Not saying he gets off scot free but he works in narrow parameters defined, primarily, by Logan and Kiss.
Campbell is indeed not fit for purpose

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Post by The Great Aukster Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:59 pm

By definition Cunningham has been unable to work within the parameters given to him therefore Logan and the commitee should get rid of him now?
Presumably the 'commitee' also had a hand in the appointments of Kiss, Campbell and Malone? Who are these amateurs who are ruining Ulster Rugby?

If Logan is having to operate within a 'decision by committee' regime then he also is operating within narrow parameters and by the same logic the committee members should be taking responsibility for the current malaise. Running a professional rugby team requires more than well-intentioned amateur hobbyists.

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Post by geoff999rugby Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:10 am

It is true we have the dead hand of amateurs at the top but I don't accept your twist on it.
Logan has genuine power to make a difference, Logan said he would make us a World power, Logan said he considers Kiss the best thing since sliced bread.
Cunningham by contrast is constrained by others in his role - primarily Logan and Kiss.

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Post by The Great Aukster Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:16 am

How is it in Logan's interest to constrain Cunningham? Bryn's failure is one key point of difference between Ulster and Munster. Either he is too weak to say he can't do the job within such stifling parameters or he's just not up to the job in general - either way it's not working.
Ulster's problems were brought in by Humphreys deciding to increase his salary several fold, but perhaps the real issue lies much deeper. This weekend's trip to SA had allegedly more backroom suits than players travelling - could that be where the resources are going rather than Bryn's budget?

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Post by geoff999rugby Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:14 am

Logan determines Bryns budget.

The issue is much deeper, it requires a root and branch revolution.
The difference between us is you don't think Logan is part of the problem - I do


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Post by clivemcl Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:52 am

I always get a bit lost when we see art talking about the club hierarchy. I struggle foe to see the relevance it has to quality players not playing like quality players. Ok, we maybe don’t have the best team we might hope for, but that Ulster side yesterday were a million miles from their potential. There may be a case against Logan. But I don’t think that means there’s not also a case against the coaching setup. Or the players themselves perhaps.

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Post by geoff999rugby Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:27 am

Of course there is a case against the coaching set up - with Kiss charge what do you expect

Ferris was spot on there is a systematic failure, the whole edifice doesn't work.
That doesn't mean that individuals aren't failing within the existing structure.

When asked if there has been any improvement since the world domination speech he said No
That generous we infact have gone into reverse gear over the last 5 years

It is true that replacing individuals wont resolve the problems unless the structure itself is fixed


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Post by Artful_Dodger Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:22 am

What exactly are we talking about in terms of the whole edifice? Aside from the academy not producing and the questionable coaching, what in terms of the structure is having the negative impact on the pitch?

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Post by geoff999rugby Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:10 am

The way schools are obstructive - driven in large part by the holy grail that is the Schools cup
Certain schools getting average players into the set up over better players from elsewhere
Who you know is more important than what you know
The underachieving of the clubs - none in the top tier
Blazers who are more interested in a jolly than helping the rugby side of things
Dublin not engaging equally with Ulster as they do with Munster, let alone Leinster
A CEO who things money is everything and has no understanding of the game
A DoR who was put in place by those ill equipped to understand what Ulster needed
Nucoifora

That is scratching the surface

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Post by Artful_Dodger Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:27 am

geoff999rugby wrote:The way schools are obstructive - driven in large part by the holy grail that is the Schools cup
Certain schools getting average players into the set up over better players from elsewhere
Who you know is more important than what you know
The underachieving of the clubs - none in the top tier
Blazers who are more interested in a jolly than helping the rugby side of things
Dublin not engaging equally with Ulster as they do with Munster, let alone Leinster
A CEO who things money is everything and has no understanding of the game
A DoR who was put in place by those ill equipped to understand what Ulster needed
Nucoifora

That is scratching the surface

The way schools are obstructive - driven in large part by the holy grail that is the Schools cup
Certain schools getting average players into the set up over better players from elsewhere
Who you know is more important than what you know

This is largely what I would have thought and is what I was getting at about sorting out the academy. The rest is worrying.

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Post by Redman Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:29 pm

Does Ulster Rugby support the schools? Financially I mean?

If so could you not instigate a policy to say schools get £X for each senior Ulster squad member they produce?

You'd need to counter the effects to be sure, as schools would then try and target weak positions and concentrate on quality over quantity but would change their incentives, at least partially.

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Post by Exiledinborders Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:35 pm

Redman wrote:Does Ulster Rugby support the schools?  Financially I mean?

If so could you not instigate a policy to say schools get £X for each senior Ulster squad member they produce?

You'd need to counter the effects to be sure, as schools would then try and target weak positions and concentrate on quality over quantity but would change their incentives, at least partially.  
A very bad idea.

Schools do not exist to help Ulster Rugby or to produce potential professional rugby players. They are there to educate children. Part of that is physical education. If every child left a school physically active and they continued be physically active and to play sport then that school would have done its job to perfection. If not one of them played professional sport that would not be a problem.

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Post by clivemcl Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:15 am

Exiledinborders wrote:
Redman wrote:Does Ulster Rugby support the schools?  Financially I mean?

If so could you not instigate a policy to say schools get £X for each senior Ulster squad member they produce?

You'd need to counter the effects to be sure, as schools would then try and target weak positions and concentrate on quality over quantity but would change their incentives, at least partially.  
A very bad idea.

Schools do not exist to help Ulster Rugby or to produce potential professional rugby players. They are there to educate children. Part of that is physical education. If every child left a school physically active and they continued be physically active and to play sport then that school would have done its job to perfection. If not one of them played professional sport that would not be a problem.

Well exactly. And IMO, Physical Education at a school should not interfere with sporting activities outside of school (ie. club rugby). Educating kids in ways of being fit and healthy and the idea of a very high pressure schools cup final are a million miles apart.
And let's be honest here, rugby training and games for some of the bigger rugby schools no doubt is a major distraction from their academics.

How about schools go up to medallion, and then let clubs deal with u18s? Crazy? I know... it'll never happen.

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Post by marty2086 Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:40 am

Are the committees at Ulster not dominated by clubmen? Surely it is in their own interest to shift a focus for the development pathway towards the clubs?

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Post by Pete330v2 Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:30 am

"How about schools go up to medallion, and then let clubs deal with u18s? Crazy? I know... it'll never happen."

It's maybe the way forward but not one the schools would ever agree to. They demand exclusivity to their players who then, by the time they are 18 have not been exposed to one moment of senior rugby. I know the school system is on a different planet since I played within it but the end result, in that regard is the same. At the very least they could allow the clubs access to their best, post-medallion players which could be of benefit to both parties.

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Post by clivemcl Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:42 am

What if the knock out competitions were the only schools rugby played in teh year, and that that competition happened at a time separate to club u18 season. The schools cup is already a short competition. What if we moved it around the calendar, and that was it. Then have a clubs u18 season or competition that only started when it finished?
Schools rugby till Christmas, and club u18 rugby from Christmas till April/May?
You could even build a bit of hype about it among the kids. You know what they would be like. They may feel like it's similar to american football college recruitment. Scouts even...

Then again, maybe 18 is too late anyway?

But wouldnt be a bad thing just to boost joining clubs after school in general. It was my experience from school that very few continued on to clubs. I would say only a handful from my year at CAI joined clubs, out of 4 teams that year. There were handy solid players who I know haven't played a competitive game since.

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Post by Pete330v2 Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:28 am

clivemcl wrote:What if the knock out competitions were the only schools rugby played in teh year, and that that competition happened at a time separate to club u18 season. The schools cup is already a short competition. What if we moved it around the calendar, and that was it. Then have a clubs u18 season or competition that only started when it finished?
Schools rugby till Christmas, and club u18 rugby from Christmas till April/May?
You could even build a bit of hype about it among the kids. You know what they would be like. They may feel like it's similar to american football college recruitment. Scouts even...

Then again, maybe 18 is too late anyway?

But wouldnt be a bad thing just to boost joining clubs after school in general. It was my experience from school that very few continued on to clubs. I would say only a handful from my year at CAI joined clubs, out of 4 teams that year. There were handy solid players who I know haven't played a competitive game since.

That'd be a fantastic idea Clive, one that I think it could be hyped and sold from Medallion age onwards.
The schools could carry on training post-xmas receiving more support / input from the clubs giving the young lads some earlier exposure to the big boys leagues instead of the current deep end strategy.

If nothing else it would give certain schools a proper window for arranging ski trips Smile Smile Smile

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Post by neilthom7 Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:56 am

Part of the problem is that there does not appear to be the will to address the school issue in Ulster Rugby.
I mean if Ulster wanted to have the clubs as the youth talent leader they could, all they would have to do is negotiate with the schools and if they refused to budge withdraw all support for the schools cup, no ravenhill for the final, no club stadiums to be used in general for it, no refs provided by Ulster branch, no player who doesn't play for a club gets picked for Ulster etc

They could get it done but they don't seem to want to

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Post by rodders Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:48 am

neilthom7 wrote:Part of the problem is that there does not appear to be the will to address the school issue in Ulster Rugby.  
I mean if Ulster wanted to have the clubs as the youth talent leader they could, all they would have to do is negotiate with the schools and if they refused to budge withdraw all support for the schools cup, no ravenhill for the final, no club stadiums to be used in general for it, no refs provided by Ulster branch, no player who doesn't play for a club gets picked for Ulster etc

They could get it done but they don't seem to want to

Sure that is what Nucifera wanted but they refused.

Re: Ulster set up, well the whole thing is a farce, you have Kiss as a director of rugby who doesn't do the recruitment - instead this is handled by Cunningham, an ex pundit and shareholder in a sports management firm who which represents most of the squad.

Then we have an experienced and proven top coach, Gibbs, who's just in charge of the forwards.Then we've Peel in charge of the backs and no defense coach.

So other than pick the team what does Kiss do?

Of the entire coaching team we have no one home grown in any senior position, contrast to the other provinces who have bolstered their homegrown coaches with experience, so have some sort of succession plan. Instead we have exported the likes of McCall, Humphreys, Davidson, Bell.

The whole set up seems to be clueless, take out the funding the NI executive provided to rebuild Ravenhill and the cash injection the IRFU provided between 2008 and 2012 for players and there would be no progress at all.




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Post by marty2086 Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:11 am

rodders wrote:
Re: Ulster set up, well the whole thing is a farce, you have Kiss as a director of rugby who doesn't do the recruitment - instead this is handled by Cunningham, an ex pundit and shareholder in a sports management firm who which represents most of the squad.

How many in the squad are represented by Esportif and when exactly did Bryn become a shareholder?

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Post by rodders Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:30 am

marty2086 wrote:
rodders wrote:
Re: Ulster set up, well the whole thing is a farce, you have Kiss as a director of rugby who doesn't do the recruitment - instead this is handled by Cunningham, an ex pundit and shareholder in a sports management firm who which represents most of the squad.

How many in the squad are represented by Esportif and when exactly did Bryn become a shareholder?

Ex shareholder I meant, wasn't he a co founding managing director of Cornerflag. Best, Piatau, Cave, Best, Bowe, Diak, Payne, Trimble are all clients take your pick.

Darren Cave is a current shareholder I believe, I think some other players. So basically these guys are making a percentage of their own contracts, which they negotiate with the ex director of the company that signed them in the first place.

How many of his own clients does Ryan Constable award MOTM too?

People need to open their eyes to see what is going on.

Cunningham is out there in SA trying to bring players in, the company he founded will sign them up as clients, take a cut of the wages he negotiates with them and then, he'll sell them on to a bigger European club in a couple of seasons for higher wages. Look at the Piatau situation, how much has Bryn made from that?

This stuff has been going on in Soccer for years, it might be legal but it is immoral imo.

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Post by marty2086 Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:37 am

rodders wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
rodders wrote:
Re: Ulster set up, well the whole thing is a farce, you have Kiss as a director of rugby who doesn't do the recruitment - instead this is handled by Cunningham, an ex pundit and shareholder in a sports management firm who which represents most of the squad.

How many in the squad are represented by Esportif and when exactly did Bryn become a shareholder?

Ex shareholder I meant, wasn't he a co founding managing director of Cornerflag. Best, Piatau, Cave, Best,  Bowe, Diak, Payne, Trimble are all clients take your pick.

Darren Cave is a current shareholder I believe, I think some other players. So basically these guys are making a percentage of their own contracts, which they negotiate with the ex director of the company that signed them in the first place.

How many of his own clients does Ryan Constable award MOTM too?

People need to open their eyes to see what is going on.

Cunningham is out there in SA trying to bring players in, the company he founded will sign them up as clients, take a cut of the wages he negotiates with them and then, he'll sell them on to a bigger European club in a couple of seasons for higher wages. Look at the Piatau situation, how much has Bryn made from that?

This stuff has been going on in Soccer for years, it might be legal but it is immoral imo.


Trimble, Bowe, Best, Gilroy, Jackson, Piutau, Henry and Payne are their clients. That's 8, so much for most of the squad.

Bryn was never a shareholder in Cornerflag or Esportif and neither have any of the players.

So it seems your outrage at the situation is based on a lot of misconceptions

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Post by rodders Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:57 am

marty2086 wrote:

Bryn was never a shareholder in Cornerflag or Esportif and neither have any of the players.

So it seems your outrage at the situation is based on a lot of misconceptions

Yes he was a Director of the company.

A number of current players are shareholders are you calling me a liar?

I named only those I was sure from the top of my head but this is easily researched.
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Post by marty2086 Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:03 am

rodders wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Bryn was never a shareholder in Cornerflag or Esportif and neither have any of the players.

So it seems your outrage at the situation is based on a lot of misconceptions

Yes he was a Director of the company.

A number of current players are shareholders are you calling me a liar?

I named only those I was sure from the top of my head but this is easily researched.

Seriously?

Then yes I am calling you a liar, rodders

All the information is public

A list of Bryns companies

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/officers/CkPtfk244LJQd-byJQ6oA_-8gcY/appointments

Corner Flags shareholders

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/NI046470/officers

And all Esportifs divisions

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/04886408/officers
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/05495760/officers
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/05294295/officers

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Post by marty2086 Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:06 am

In your defence though rodders, I know I've seen Bryn called a director in the past but seems to be nothing more than a title

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Post by The Great Aukster Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:05 am

Bryn may not have been a director but he worked for both organisations.

Belfast Telegraph October 31 2014 "Bryn, who played for the province between 1997 and 2010 and enjoyed involvement in the 1999 European Cup success, joins the management set-up at Ulster from global rugby agency Esportif International, where he was working after Ryan Constable's Cornerflag agency - Cunningham's original employer - merged with the larger company. "

Given the hoohah around Humphreys having to give up his directorship, when he switched, Constable may have thought it prudent not to make the offer, or indeed Bryn may not have accepted it for similar reasons?

The big money post career isn't at UR for a player who wants to stay in the game, but Belfast is proving a useful shop window in which to learn.

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Post by marty2086 Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:33 am

Not disputing where he worked Aukster, just pointing out to rodders that his gripe since to be about things that are only in his head.

You seem to be indicating that that Corner Flag/Esportif are grooming people to run the recruitment for Ulster for their own benefit. Payne and Piutau are the only current players I can find that Ulster have signed who have them as their agents and Afoa in the past too.

Given the prevalence of Saffers in our squad, they don't have a presence in that part of the world so doesn't seem to be the issue that it's being made out to be.

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Post by rodders Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:50 am

The Great Aukster wrote:Bryn may not have been a director but he worked for both organisations.

He was athlete manager and then later director, or at least is listed at such in several places.
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Post by geoff999rugby Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:24 am

The common denominator in this set up is Constable - a truly slippery piece of work.

Regarding recruitment as I said before Cunningham is given both commercial and rugby guidelines by Logan and Kiss on who to recruit.
He doesn't recruit in isolation

As to Kiss, besides selection, he is our defence coach.
Not doing a good job of that is he

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Post by rodders Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:36 am

Geoff who carried out the review of the coaching set up last season?

The whole coaching set up seems a mess and there seems to be no vision or direction since Humphreys left, its just one short term approach after another.

Over the next few seasons we are going to lose the spine of the club - Best, Henry, Trimble, Bowe, Payne through retirement - Piatau is moving on next season, Lelifano is short term and very likely Jackson and Olding are gone too.

Henderson is not guaranteed to stay either.

There is going to need to be some serious rebuilding done and without a stable and experienced coaching team it is hard to see how we can remain competitive as key players leave.

Herring, Treadwell, Ludik, Marshall, Cooney, Gilroy, Reidy etc. are good players but it not likely to strike fear in the other pro 14 teams let alone Europe.

Sorry to be pessimistic but it is really frustrating to see the club in such a mess again after turning things around a few years ago.
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Post by geoff999rugby Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:54 am

I honestly think review is a bit grand a word, by the end of last year the whole set up had disintegrated into farce with the result Clarke and Doak simply had to go.
From that premise Kiss put forward names of people he wanted to bring in.
I am pretty certain Kiss was never under serious threat of dismissal (and therein lies a problem)
You have to remember that the IRFU were instrumental in his appointment and Logan has very publically stated what a great appointment he was.
Too many people would have egg on their face if he was dismissed - meanwhile we suffer the consequences of a dysfunctional coaching set up

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Post by marty2086 Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:31 am

The whole thing comes back to poor long term planning in Belfast and Dublin. Whoever gave Humphreys his contract needs slapped for not having a sufficient notice period in place to prevent him walking out and leaving Ulster in the lurch. He should have at least been part of the process of bringing in his successor, even if it was just showing them the ropes.

Its the same across the provinces, Munster and Connacht have been left having to find someone to run the show because of the stupid release clause in coaches contracts. This leaves setups having to take a step back and almost begin again when it comes to planning.

Humphreys leaving stuck us with a dysfunctional coaching ticket that wasn't picked by the man running the show, to me that at least buys Kiss the opportunity to work with some different coaches he's hired.

Is there a case to be made for Ulster and Connacht swapping in regards to the NIQ quota? Outside of Ulster all the provinces have won the CL/Pro12 in the last 10 years yet Connacht still seem to retain their position outside the quotas.

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Post by clivemcl Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:20 am

I'll be honest (and I say this in admission that I know less than the rest of you), but I don't even know which of you all to believe anymore.
I mean no disrespect. I don't mean to imply you are biased or misguided. I just have seen various people on here claim they know the problem, and then once the problem is addressed and failure continues, you hop to another theory of who is to blame.

It just all feels hopeless is all.

I could believe some of you when you say Kiss has to go, and then wouldn't be surprised if Kiss left and we still didn't improve. Same goes for Logan or Bryn or whoever. You guys might almost convince me, but being honest I wouldn't be surprised to find out all your claims of solution don't work either.

In the same way as getting rid of Anscombe didnt improve UR that I can see. The wait for Kiss was no worthwhile despite what i was told. The getting rid of Doak and Clarke has not dramatically changed our on field performances. etc etc...

I don't mean to dismiss all the discussion on here, I just find it hopeless, and am very wary of believing in supposed solutions anymore.

Sorry

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Post by clivemcl Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:23 am

rodders wrote:

Herring, Treadwell, Ludik, Marshall, Cooney, Gilroy, Reidy etc. are good players but it not likely to strike fear in the other pro 14 teams let alone Europe.

Sorry to be pessimistic but it is really frustrating to see the club in such a mess again after turning things around a few years ago.

I would say though... the players I've bolded certainly are capable of being players who could strike fear in the other pro 14 teams. They maybe just haven't shown that, at least not consistently.
But consistency surely wouldn't be an unreasonable expectation would it if other factors were as they should be.

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