Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

First topic message reminder :

2017 Autumn Test Results

Scotland 44 - Samoa 38

Tries - Hogg, Jones, McInally (2), Dunbar, Horne

Scotland 17 - New Zealand 22

Tries - J Gray, Jones

Scotland 53 - Australia 24

McGuigan (2), Price, Maitland, J Gray, Jones, Barclay, McInally


6N fixtures

Wales V Scotland
Scotland V France

Scotland V England

Ireland V Scotland
Italy V Scotland

Yeah we've certainly improved after a bad start, helped by the game being pretty scrappy with both making mistakes.

The Welsh 13 looks good and their loosehead is an absolute monster.

You can tell McClelland is a rugby league convert - his first thought is always to run!

RDW_Scotland wrote:You can tell McClelland is a rugby league convert - his first thought is always to run!

Got a pretty decent boot on him as well. Should hopefully continue to improve with more experience.

Our lineout has been truly awful - the drill just isn't coordinated whatsoever

This is bonkers, a lot of our players are out on their feet and we have only made one sub so far at 70 mins

Stevie Scott's top class coaching! That or he really does just have boys left on the bench.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Stevie Scott's top class coaching! That or he really does just have boys left on the bench.

One of the bench props is that highly rated SA one, surely he was worth more than an 8 min cameo. We competed quite well up front for 60 mins but are getting massed now.

Never was entirely convinced about Steve Scott and this is not causing a change of opinion. They are going to have to use a squad of players in this tournament, whether they like it or not, so might as well blood them and see how they cope.

36-3 Wales.

Not a lot of positives we can take from that other than it hopefully serving as a good learning experience for our young players. Set piece terrible, loads of mistakes, many missed tackles, no real attacking threat and physically inferior. We just didn't look well drilled.

Maybe a bit harsh on the young team but they're going to have to learn quickly!

Well beaten in the end, which was not entirely unpredictable bearing in mind the experience of the Scottish players.

Hopefully they will improve as the competition goes on and they start to learn what playing at this level is all about. We did not do so great in the 6N last year, but were a lot better by the time the JWC came around.

So, where now?

I don't think we should have a knee jerk reaction but he'll have to make some changes for next week. Townsend got that badly wrong and has to learn fast.

RDW_Scotland wrote:I don't think we should have a knee jerk reaction but he'll have to make some changes for next week. Townsend got that badly wrong and has to learn fast.

Definitely, a few players were anonymous today.

CDP did himself no favours, you wonder if he really has the pace to play Toonie kind of game.

McGuigan and Harris did not look international players. It is difficult when you only have a couple of caps but they did not take their chances. I don't think either of them will play next week.

I've got to say though, Chris Harris does not look up to international rugby on his displays so far.

RDW_Scotland wrote:I've got to say though, Chris Harris does not look up to international rugby on his displays so far.

Jones doesn't look like an international 12

Mind you price and Russell didn't lookike international half backs...

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Mind you price and Russell didn't lookike international half backs...

They never do when playing off scraps.

I suspect Laidlaw will start next week. We need a bit of control brought to the chaos.

BigGee wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Mind you price and Russell didn't lookike international half backs...

They never do when playing off scraps.

I suspect Laidlaw will start next week. We need a bit of control brought to the chaos.

I'm torn. We didn't have him all autumn, do we treat this as a blip or are we actually that humming? I think the answer is something in between.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

BigGee wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Mind you price and Russell didn't lookike international half backs...

They never do when playing off scraps.

I suspect Laidlaw will start next week. We need a bit of control brought to the chaos.

I'm torn. We didn't have him all autumn, do we treat this as a blip or are we actually that humming? I think the answer is something in between.

We are not that humming, which makes a performance like that so much harder to swallow.

Our game plan was just not up to it and probably some of our selections did not work out. That and we just could not hang onto the ball under any kind of pressure.

Toonie does need to bear quite a bit of responsibility for that performance.

He does Harris was an experiment that failed. Utterly, Huw Jones and Chris Harris looked like they just met in the car park.

Du Preez should never play for Scotland again.

reallybored wrote:Du Preez should never play for Scotland again.

Bit harsh!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

reallybored wrote:Du Preez should never play for Scotland again.

Bit harsh!

He was bobbins, and got dicked up and down the park. Denton should get a crack for France

RDW_Scotland wrote:

reallybored wrote:Du Preez should never play for Scotland again.

Bit harsh!

Why?

He was totally anonymous today. We dominated possession in the first half but he didn’t carry the ball.

And it’s not like he’s ever had more than an above average game for Scotland.

reallybored wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

reallybored wrote:Du Preez should never play for Scotland again.

Bit harsh!

Why?

He was totally anonymous today. We dominated possession in the first half but he didn’t carry the ball.

And it’s not like he’s ever had more than an above average game for Scotland.

So one bad game should lead to him being an international outcast?

Price, Russell, McInally, Jones etc were awful - worse than CDP IMO

Think one of the big issues was Scotland kicking away possession too much today. Hogg was going for chip over the tops, Russell was.. well, who knows at times, if fuelled the Welsh attack who were looking to keep ball in hand. I'd like to see the actual kicking stats because I think Scotland made a lot more than last years 6N opener vs Ireland.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

reallybored wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

reallybored wrote:Du Preez should never play for Scotland again.

Bit harsh!

Why?

He was totally anonymous today. We dominated possession in the first half but he didn’t carry the ball.

And it’s not like he’s ever had more than an above average game for Scotland.

So one bad game should lead to him being an international outcast?

Price, Russell, McInally, Jones etc were awful - worse than CDP IMO

Because they were actually involved in the game, unlike Du Preez.

And they’ve all played really well for Scotlandin the past, has Du Preez?

reallybored wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

reallybored wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

reallybored wrote:Du Preez should never play for Scotland again.

Bit harsh!

Why?

He was totally anonymous today. We dominated possession in the first half but he didn’t carry the ball.

And it’s not like he’s ever had more than an above average game for Scotland.

So one bad game should lead to him being an international outcast?

Price, Russell, McInally, Jones etc were awful - worse than CDP IMO

Because they were actually involved in the game, unlike Du Preez.

And they’ve all played really well for Scotlandin the past, has Du Preez?

He has 5 caps - most of which off the bench!!

Denton, to be fair, has had very good games for Scotland and rarely has bad ones.

CDP has had a few goes now and has flattered to deceive. I don't think he will play next week.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

reallybored wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

reallybored wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

reallybored wrote:Du Preez should never play for Scotland again.

Bit harsh!

Why?

He was totally anonymous today. We dominated possession in the first half but he didn’t carry the ball.

And it’s not like he’s ever had more than an above average game for Scotland.

So one bad game should lead to him being an international outcast?

Price, Russell, McInally, Jones etc were awful - worse than CDP IMO

Because they were actually involved in the game, unlike Du Preez.

And they’ve all played really well for Scotlandin the past, has Du Preez?

He has 5 caps - most of which off the bench!!

Marfo has less caps and has done more.

He’s a passenger we can’t afford the carry.

reallybored wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

reallybored wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

reallybored wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

reallybored wrote:Du Preez should never play for Scotland again.

Bit harsh!

Why?

He was totally anonymous today. We dominated possession in the first half but he didn’t carry the ball.

And it’s not like he’s ever had more than an above average game for Scotland.

So one bad game should lead to him being an international outcast?

Price, Russell, McInally, Jones etc were awful - worse than CDP IMO

Because they were actually involved in the game, unlike Du Preez.

And they’ve all played really well for Scotlandin the past, has Du Preez?

He has 5 caps - most of which off the bench!!

Marfo has less caps and has done more.

He’s a passenger we can’t afford the carry.

That may be true but you're way OTT to say he should never play for Scotland again.

Now that he has lost his explosiveness, post injury, it is hard to see how CDP can improve his game to make him an international class player. He just seems a yard slow now for this level. Wilson was much better than him when he came on.

He’s garbage.

Hope the SRU have the good sense to bin him this season and give Bradbury or Miller a chance at 8.

What I don't get, is we have gone from the best Scottish performance in my memory anyway vs Oz, to the worst in my memory.

Even against England there was injuries to blame. This was just error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after errorerror after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after errorerror after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after errorerror after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after errorerror after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after errorerror after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after errorerror after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after errorerror after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after errorerror after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error after error.

Depressing stuff.

Think you have to acknowledge that best ever performance was against 14 men for a half or so.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think you have to acknowledge that best ever performance was against 14 men for a half or so.

Exactly this. There's no doubt Scotland have made improvements and it's good to see, but you have to put their improvements into perspective.

Today was mostly just a bad day at the office where everything went wrong for you guys, but perhaps a bit of a wake up call as well?

EnglishReign wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think you have to acknowledge that best ever performance was against 14 men for a half or so.

Exactly this. There's no doubt Scotland have made improvements and it's good to see, but you have to put their improvements into perspective.

Today was mostly just a bad day at the office where everything went wrong for you guys, but perhaps a bit of a wake up call as well?

14 men doesn't sway a score like that very often. Scarlets beat Leinster just last year in the pro 12 semi with 14 men for about the same time. NZ didn't collapse against the Lions when SBW was given his marching orders.

It helps but it seldom makes THAT much of a difference.

Aus were winning at that point despite being on the back foot. You do have to discuss that and factor it in if stating a swing in performance though.

Right then. I didn't watch this sh!tshow and I'm now delighted that I didn't.

Isn't this just a question of moving the incumbents back to their usual positions, spending next week on defence and telling everyone to calm the fork down?

I have to say (away from the matchday thread which is already knee deep in wum) that I think Gatland is an absolute @rsehole to come out with "I always knew that we'd win comfortably and we did" (see his BBC website interview). Really detest graceless winning - it's an appalling characteristic.

Sometimes you’ve got to earn the right to toss the ball around. Scotland also looked tired in the first half too.

Hi George Carlin wrote:Right then. I didn't watch this sh!tshow and I'm now delighted that I didn't.

Isn't this just a question of moving the incumbents back to their usual positions, spending next week on defence and telling everyone to calm the fork down?

I have to say (away from the matchday thread which is already knee deep in wum) that I think Gatland is an absolute @rsehole to come out with "I always knew that we'd win comfortably and we did" (see his BBC website interview). Really detest graceless winning - it's an appalling characteristic.

I think that's a bit of an an exaggeration, George.

George Carlin wrote:Right then. I didn't watch this sh!tshow and I'm now delighted that I didn't.

Isn't this just a question of moving the incumbents back to their usual positions, spending next week on defence and telling everyone to calm the fork down?

I have to say (away from the matchday thread which is already knee deep in wum) that I think Gatland is an absolute @rsehole to come out with "I always knew that we'd win comfortably and we did" (see his BBC website interview). Really detest graceless winning - it's an appalling characteristic.

Its a side of Gatland's character which unfortunately will never go away and one, which despite all his achievements in the game, make it very hard to warm to him.

Wales played really well today, make no mistake but like any game it could have gone very differently if a few plays had gone better for Scotland early on. How can anyone really know how a game will go? To me that was just crowing and it does him and his team no credit.

The Oracle wrote:

Hi George Carlin wrote:Right then. I didn't watch this sh!tshow and I'm now delighted that I didn't.

Isn't this just a question of moving the incumbents back to their usual positions, spending next week on defence and telling everyone to calm the fork down?

I have to say (away from the matchday thread which is already knee deep in wum) that I think Gatland is an absolute @rsehole to come out with "I always knew that we'd win comfortably and we did" (see his BBC website interview). Really detest graceless winning - it's an appalling characteristic.

I think that's a bit of an an exaggeration, George.

Ankle deep? It did get much more tolerable after I banned a poster for a week.

M
F

George Carlin wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

Hi George Carlin wrote:Right then. I didn't watch this sh!tshow and I'm now delighted that I didn't.

Isn't this just a question of moving the incumbents back to their usual positions, spending next week on defence and telling everyone to calm the fork down?

I have to say (away from the matchday thread which is already knee deep in wum) that I think Gatland is an absolute @rsehole to come out with "I always knew that we'd win comfortably and we did" (see his BBC website interview). Really detest graceless winning - it's an appalling characteristic.

I think that's a bit of an an exaggeration, George.

Ankle deep? It did get much more tolerable after I banned a poster for a week.

Sorry, I was thinking you meant the thread currently I.e. before, during and after the match, which has all been good I think. Gwlad was being a d*ck today at one point but he was told to shut up. But if you're talking about last week when the thread was created then yes. But let's be honest. There was plenty from both sides (a resounding win for Scotland, all we need is a good pitch, Tramptastic with his 'you're not a country' stuff!). Good today though, I thought. No gloating. No poor winners (yet). 

Anyway, as I said on the match thread - I do genuinely feel for the Scottish fans. Which is not much consolation I'm sure. I can feel the anger of the fans towards your team through the computer screen! But good luck for the rest of the tournament. 

The Oracle wrote:M
F

George Carlin wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

Hi George Carlin wrote:Right then. I didn't watch this sh!tshow and I'm now delighted that I didn't.

Isn't this just a question of moving the incumbents back to their usual positions, spending next week on defence and telling everyone to calm the fork down?

I have to say (away from the matchday thread which is already knee deep in wum) that I think Gatland is an absolute @rsehole to come out with "I always knew that we'd win comfortably and we did" (see his BBC website interview). Really detest graceless winning - it's an appalling characteristic.

I think that's a bit of an an exaggeration, George.

Ankle deep? It did get much more tolerable after I banned a poster for a week.

Sorry, I was thinking you meant the thread currently I.e. before, during and after the match, which has all been good I think. Gwlad was being a d*ck today at one point but he was told to shut up. But if you're talking about last week when the thread was created then yes. But let's be honest. There was plenty from both sides (a resounding win for Scotland, all we need is a good pitch, Tramptastic with his 'you're not a country' stuff!). Good today though, I thought. No gloating. No poor winners (yet). 

Anyway, as I said on the match thread - I do genuinely feel for the Scottish fans. Which is not much consolation I'm sure. I can feel the anger of the fans towards your team through the computer screen! But good luck for the rest of the tournament. 

That was me, and I provided evidence as to why I thought that would be the case. Obviously I was very wrong.

I also don't want to sling mud at the ref, who broadly speaking I thought was OK, however the amount of players who do what Barclay did, over the ball hands on the turf for a second then on the ball an he for pinged. CJ Stander did the same thing and won a penalty.

https://twitter.com/theblitzdefence/status/959852973894578176

Gotta get rid of these inconsistencies.

So I decided to leave a full review until I'd slept on it but it's not worked - I'm still furious with that performance. Raging that Townsend sent us out with those tactics, and then massively disappointed that we confounded that by terrible decision making, basic mistakes, lapses in defence and - most disappointingly - we looked like we'd given up after 20 minutes.

That was the worst of some of Glasgow's performances in Europe x 100 - we all baulked when Eddie Jones said all Scotland did was throw the ball from side to side, as there has been a whole lot more to our game than that over the last few years, but that's exactly what we did yesterday. Clichés exist because they're generally true - you have to earn the right to go forward and we didn't do that whatsoever. Townsend aims for tempo, accuracy, skill but what we got was frantic, inaccurate and errors. Even our backs moves were awful and I have no idea what they were aiming for - Russell would shuffle across the pitch and spin a long pass, where there would be the odd loop move and dummy runner that led to nothing. Horizontal distance 50m. Territory gained - 0m. Wales would just shuffle their defensive line across the pitch and gleefully pick us off. Compare that to Wales' set piece moves where they actually tied in our midfield, leading to overlaps out wide. This is basic stuff FFS that even coaches at my level drill into teams!!

There were a few other key points:

- Composure. We did actually make some line breaks but it led to nothing as we forced the glory ball that wasn't on every time. If the player had just taken the tackle we would have had an attacking ruck in their 22 with Wales back peddling and under all kinds of pressure. Instead we forced the offload or pass that wasn't on and knocked on.

- Rucking. Navidi had a field day because we weren't committing enough men to rucks, particularly in the red zone. Instead the players were all fanned out across the pitch looking for some more wide-wide action. We just had no ferocity at the breakdown, with players standing watching what was going on - at one point Gray had managed to rip the ball in contact but the players round him just stood watching. Wales then piled bodies into the ruck and turned it back over.

- Finn Russell. Thankfully it's a long time since we've seen him play like that but feck me he was awful. Zero control, zero composure and full of mistakes. He wasn't the only one to have their worst ever games for Scotland

So to end I'm going to group players together for some player ratings

1/10 - McInally, CDP, Price, Russell, Harris
2/10 - Jones, McGuigan
4/10 - Toolis, Hogg, Seymour, Reid, Welsh (ironically our scrum wasn't too bad, but these two were completely lost in the loose)
5/10 - Gray, Barclay,
6/10 - Watson - the only player to come out with pass marks IMO, and the only one that still gave his all.

So fellas, how long is the injury list for next weekend? Do you have a spare flyhalf by any chance? We can trade him for a prop or two...

Well one of the positives from yesterday is that we appeared to get away without any injuries, but that was mainly due to us appearing to avoid all kinds of physical confrontation in the tackle or rucks!

whocares wrote:So fellas, how long is the injury list for next weekend? Do you have a spare flyhalf by any chance? We can trade him for a prop or two...

Oh Mon amie, unlucky yesterday, getting soundly beaten isn't as bad as getting the win stolen by a last minute drop goal.

Injuries, I think Berghan will be back, I also hope one of either Dunbar and Taylor will be back. I wouldn't be surprised to see Laidlaw start, price has to have some kind of penance for that shambles. However if we chastised everyone who had a howler yesterday it would be a drastically different team.

My squad for next weekend.

1. Bhatti
2. McInally
3. Berghan
4. Gilchrist
5. Gray
6. Barclay
7. Watson
8. Denton

9. Laidlaw
10. Russell
11. Seymour
12. Dunbar/Taylor/Horne (depending on fitness)
13. Taylor/Jones (depending on fitness)
14. Kinghorn
15. Hogg

16. Lawson
17. Reid
18. Welsh
19. Toolis
20. Harley
21. Price
22. Bennett
23. Horne

The Harris/Jones experiment was a disaster. I'd drop Russell if I could but we can't. He has just showed that when it's all going tits up he can't control a game without Laidlaw. All in all a bit of a mess really. I hope Townsend gets this sorted.

Reid
McInally
Welsh (Berghan has not played for 4 weeks)
Gray
Gilchrist
Barclay
Wilson(who looked like he cared when he came on)
Watson
Laidlaw
Russell
Seymour
Dunbar (indications were that he would be fit)
Jones
Maitland
Hogg

Bhatti
Lawson
Berghan
Toolis
Hamilton
Price
Horne
Kinghorn

Denton is a possibility to start as well, but I would not bench him. If he started then Wilson to the bench and Hamilton drops out.

BigGee wrote:Reid
McInally
Welsh (Berghan has not played for 4 weeks)
Gray
Gilchrist
Barclay
Wilson(who looked like he cared when he came on)
Watson
Laidlaw
Russell
Seymour
Dunbar (indications were that he would be fit)
Jones
Maitland
Hogg

Bhatti
Lawson
Berghan
Toolis
Hamilton
Price
Horne
Kinghorn

Denton is a possibility to start as well, but I would not bench him. If he started then Wilson to the bench and Hamilton drops out.

I'd go with that team too. We desperately need Dunbar or Taylor to be fit, although it's not ideal that they will be going into the game cold.

What do we do if they're not fit? Horne isn't the answer but I'm terrified of the prospect of our centre combo from yesterday lining up again.

Reid and Welsh to start - they're our best scrummagers and we'll need that v France.