Post Ashes England Cricket discussion - ODIs and the NZ squads

First topic message reminder :

As Olly roundly predicted (and I can tell you, he aggressively told people), England have stormed the Ashes and now move forwards to a one-day series with the Aussies.

Tonight, they name the squad for New Zealand, with Vince expected to keep his place for more convincing knocks, whilst Liam Livingstone is tipped to get the call too.

Can’t believe we’ve had two matches at this awful cake tin Westpac Stadium and won’t have one all tour at the Basin Reserve

Woakes

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Can’t believe we’ve had two matches at this awful cake tin Westpac Stadium and won’t have one all tour at the Basin Reserve

Hi Olly - as you may have picked up on the Surrey thread, I'm recently back from a tour of New Zealand. I saw the Cake Tin but only from the outside. Got the impression from locals that the Basin Reserve is much preferred. As an aside, I did go to Eden Park for the final of the t20 tri-series - poor game and impacted by rain but still a great experience. That's a strange ground - certainly small but still oddly so. There's hardly much distance at all between the edge of the circle and the boundary from a straight drive whilst the distance the ball needs to go to the boundary from a cover drive isn't huge but still slightly greater than at Lord's.

Anyway, a cracking finish today. I doubt if Tom Curran or anyone else for that matter will ever bowl better for a return of 0/49.

We were bl**dy lucky though with Santner's dismissal. It was clear that he's a popular player in New Zealand, mainly for his reading of the game which was once more well demonstrated.

Another tight win, seems this one was owes a fair bit to the spinners ripping NZs middle order apart

Does Eng play test matches in NZ too?
If yes I'd be looking forward to it.......tough and equal, but I'd back Eng to win

Yep ...end of the month. Its already been a ridiculously long tour, you can see why the management/coaches have had enough of trying to run 3 squads and why noones been expected to play all of the series.

First games in Aus were 4-5 Nov ...test series in NZ doesnt end till April 3rd. Thats 6 months without a proper break ...then straight back into a domestic season. IPL starts on the 4th.
But then we complain they havent got enough warm up games to compete properly ....(Just one ahead of the NZ test series, none of the players will have played first class cricket since Jan 8th)

Its a shame but these kind of tours with 3 format players and coaches just arent sustainable.

Ross Taylor playing a ridiculous innings here to guide NZ to a win

England will rue their amazing collapse from 260-1, to 310-9. Should have got 360-370 easily

On another note - am I seemingly the only person who doesn’t think Mark Wood is any good anymore? He barely reaches 135kph once into his spells and has poor control of his line. I think the surgeries have ruined him

And whisper it quietly, this has been a great ODI series

Bit of a dissapointment for Englands really. They had a great opportunity to build a huge total which got chucked away by a real collapse and got off to a cracking start with the new ball.
Taylors innings something special and yes its good from an entertainment perspective to have these topsy turvey cloesly contested games ...but England seem to be getting sloppy and a top class ( ideally left arm genuine quick ...we can dream right?) bowler short.

Positive....decent runs for Roy whos had a rough time since his last century.

But really this game was all about Taylor.

Amazing knock from Taylor! Once he goes NZ middle order will look very fragile indeed...he seems to be doubt for final game, which means if he is out, then Chapman will most likely come back in, and all of a sudden that middle order look weak...... maybe a worry for NZ too is that, Guptill, Taylor and Willamson all struggling with leg injuries of recent times...

Gooseberry: From a Surrey-centric perspective (of course?):

1/ Roy is going better, but still fails to convert enough good starts for my liking: he seems far too prone to getting out, rather than being genuinely dismissed by a bowler; but
2/ left arm quick: we continue to hold out great hope at higher levels for Sam Curran, who's been around a while already but is still, amazingly, a teenager.

Goose - just wait until Simon spots that Tom Curran is averaging 70 with the bat in ODIs!

Resounding win in the final ODI for England and another impressive series win against a side who had won 9 of their previous 10 home ODI series

Man of the series for my guy Chris Woakes - his' opening spells in this series
5-0-14-2
5-1-18-2
5-1-13-1
5-2-14-1
6-1-13-1

Quite good that.

Olly - yep, your man did very well. Surprising and disappointing that we lost two of the games with consistently good starts like that.

I enjoyed this series. Some good cricket and played the right way. As you can probably tell, I'm still buzzing about New Zealand! Looking forward to the two Tests.

England have now won 9 out of their 10 last bilateral odi series's

Not sure how convincing theyve looked in these mind.
New Zealand are pretty weak once you get past two senior batsmen and the front line seamers.
The kiwi commentator ( I forget his name) on TMS had a big rant about the lack of quality in depth that New Zealand have.

Although the pitches have been variable their attacking style has come undone at times and not yielded the results it was previosuly. They are still a class bowler short too.
I dont mean to be over critical, this is judging them on the standards theyve set themselves over the excellent form of the last couple of years. England are arguably the best ODI side in the world, and certainly right up there by any measure. I just dont think theyve looked quite as convincing as they have done in prior series.


Ahead to the tests... theres a very good write up of the options open to England on cricinfo ( aside form them ignoring Livingstone, then giving him a whole seperate article to big up himself)

Same old issues for England...do they have a proper spinner, can they play Moeen on his own ?
Can they actually get some runs at 2 and 3?
Have they had an adequate warm up to go into a split pink/red ball two match series (one 4 day game, half played day/night)




In other news Stokes has pleaded not guyilty and is set for trail in early August ...right in the middle of the home season. Lovely.

Pretty harsh there Goose, there's a reason why NZ have won 9 of their last 10 ODI series at home - they're a damn good ODI side. Guptill, Williamson, Taylor would arguably get into a world ODI XI, Boult/Southee/Sodhi/Santner is a good bowling attack - they just lacked De Grandhomme coming off with the ball or bat all series really imo

They're probably a notch below England in terms of strength - but their star power is just as good, if not better than England's for me

Tests should be interesting - I fancy Wagner to cause England a heck of a lot of issues

I actually think youve argued pretty much teh sdame point I did there Olly ... take away the any of the few stars NZ rely on and they are a greatly reduced side. Without Taylor they were weak. Im also echoing the sentiments of the Kiwi expert in saying that theres very little dsepth to the NZ squad, whereas England have guys like Hales ready to step in.
I would argue that Sohdi is not a star player, hes not even the best spinner in the NZ side and one of the worst batsmen youll ever see at this level.

I honestly dont think England looked that great in this series by the standards they have set in ODIs under Bayliss.


Anyway tests ... theres a good write up on cricinfo of the various options England have.
The old issues remain ... they dont have a 2 or 3 who really justifies being selected on anything other than a lack of options.  Livingstone could come in for Vince, but they dont have an option for replacing Stoneman.
They dont have a test class spinner either, Crane had a poor tour of the Windies and causes issues with balance to the side if selected. Indications are that they want to pick Moeen again ( he bowled 23 over to Cranes 1) after he showed some confidence returning in the limited overs games ...but a return of 1 for 99 in the warm up against average opposition doesnt bode well. Stokes coming back does strengthen Cranes hand a bit, but also opens up the debate about the batting order and where stokes fits in.

Interestingly Foakes has been keeping wicket in the warm up. There have been folk on here advoating him taking the gloves for tests and Bairstow being treated a as senior bat up the order. Id still be very surprised to see that happen in the tests, this is more likley about not overworking Bairstow ...although equally it would be odd to see him go straight into a test without having kept wicket in a game for months.

It may be of course that they will swap things up for the other days of this warm up and we will see Crane and overton given a proper bowl and Bairstow keep wicket. But there are a lot of options for England when it comes to naming a test side.

They could play this side

Cook,Stoneman,Root,Malan,Bairstow,Stokes,Foakes,Moeen,Woakes,Broad,Anderson

But i think they will go:

Cook,Stoneman,Vince,Root,Malan,Stokes,Bairstow,Moeen,Woakes,Broad,Anderson

or
Cook Stoneman Livingstone Root Stokes Malan Bairstow Ali Woakes Broad Anderson

England currently 53/3..

Livingstone helped his chances overnight, scoring 88 in his single knock (being 12th England Wicket to fall).

Most of the other batters struggled:

Stoneman was out twice for a combined 3 runs.
Vince out twice for a combined 45 runs
Cook got 30 in his first knock, less in second.
Root out cheaply first time round not out in second knock.
Malan was out cheaply first time round, barely started in second go.

There are rumours Stokes may not be fit to bowl, and will play as a specialist batsman in the first test. If these are true, I would imagine the team will be....

Cook, Stoneman, Vince, Root, Malan, Stokes, Bairstow, Woakes, Overton, Broad, Anderson

With Root/Malan acting as the spinners. I don't think you can go in with Moeen as part of a four man attack in NZ, and definitely not Crane.

Would imagine they give Vince the 1st test

Livingstones done his case no harm, but he was batting down the order. Vinces knock still leaves him in no mans land. But the signal putting him in at 3 sends is that they see him as the first choice so Im inclined to agree hes likely to get the first test.

Stokes not bowling ... thats a huge issue. Is he really one of the best 6 specilalist bats for England? It also means no balanced attacke as Olly notes.
It does make more sense of why they used so many overs to give the part timers a go ( including Vince) and why hes not appeared so far in the game at all.
For me if hes not fit enough to bowl he would be better rested for the game and Livingstone given a chance hidden down the order (assuming they stick with Vince as above). As it stands Stokes would go into a test having not played any long form cricket at all for over 6 months and just a handfull of mostly short limitd overs innings. Its not even like he can claim outright to be a top class test bat when on proven form.

I assume Wood will play, presumably ahead of Overton. He was given the new ball and more overs than any other seamer; Overton didnt bowl at all. The desire for pace ( as much as Wood has that) was pretty openly stated after the Ashes, and for all his attributes its something Overton cant boast. Im not a massive fan of Wood, but the pointers are he will play.

Unless they use the squad dramaticaly differently in the next two days of this game the indiciations are that Crane and Overton are not being seriously considered as options, whereas Moeen has been given every chance he can to win a place .... and continues to fail with bat and ball. Id be  dissapointed if he does play (next two days pending) unless its a spin friendly wicket (not that hes done that well with those).

So all in as things stand now Im predicting a first test XI of
Cook
Stoneman
Vince
Root
Malan
Stokes
Bairstow
Woakes
Broad
Anderson
Wood

Anyway you cut it England have problems:  going from having too many bowlers to being one short with no spinner worth selecting and the 2/3 positions being weak.

Goose - Overton and Crane were both injured so couldn't bowl in this game. I think they're both expected to bowl in the second warm up.

Personally I would choose a fit Moeen over a Stokes who can't bowl. Their batting averages (in Tests and first class) aren't that different whilst Moeen in this scenario gives us greater balance and a fifth bowling option which imo is more genuine than a Root/Malan combo.

England play a warm up today versus a New Zealand XI. They’re playing 12 men and Stokes won’t field or bowl:

Cook
Stoneman
Vince
Root
Malan
Stokes
YJB
Mo
Woakes
Overton
Broad
Anderson

Basically “as you were” with Stokes coming in to ruin Overton’s chances, one presumes

Can't see them leaving Moeen out - though his recent form is dreadful they seem committed. Hoping he will come back to the (truly excellent) performer of a few months ago : and conceding there is no one else to fill the role...
(IF Crane's experience in Sydney has in fact crashed his own confidence to the point where they don't even want to bowl him in matches , would it not have been better to replace him for this NZ tour ? Can't see drink carrying around and admiring the scenery will do much for him and it leaves them with no viable alternate spinner)

Also though I don't buy the argument that Stokes isn't worth a spot for his batting. Yes he can be chancy at times but when he puts his head down - and he can - he is well capable of constructing a proper Test innings : and he can go up through the gears too. When Vince and Stoneman are in the list suggestions that he might not be in the "best six" strike me as laughable. Unless he is injury hampered to the point where safety decrees he should be rested he is in my XI.

Cook Stoneman (no one else) Root Malan Livingstone Stokes Bairstow Moeen. Woakes Broad. Anderson.

(I don't see much point in persisting with the underwhelming Vince but agree they may well do so - in which case no Livingstone.)

If the three pace men can't do the job under lights (and Stokes really can't bowl - we will see) at least you have Root Malan (and Livingstone in my XI) to assist Moeen get through the "extra" overs. It certainly isn't ideal but you have to do what you can with what you've got.

If Stokes is out an extra fast bowler makes the tail a bit long for mine but I think it might be making the best of the possible options : I'd prefer Overton , if fit , to Wood.

James100 wrote:Goose - Overton and Crane were both injured so couldn't bowl in this game. I think they're both expected to bowl in the second warm up.

Fair enough I didnt realise that ...although overton did bowl one over!
Hes had a run in this game at the exclusion of wood, so it does counter that argument. All the same if they do go with 4 bowlers Id expect Wood to get the nod over him.
Moeens been given a good bowl again and taken wickets which signals well till you see Root took as many wickets for a third the cost. Again hes beeing given every chance to find his rythm/get his confidence/beleive hes wanted which does suggest England really do want to pick him. Im really not a massive fan oif his but if you have to have him in the side it has to be in place of Stokes (assuming hes not bowling) rather than one of the bowlers. Its insane not having Bairstow in the top 6 anyway, and Woakes makes a more than adequate test 8 .
Cranes injury has seen Leach called up as cover. He wont play, so if they want a full time spinner it means shoehorning Moeen in somewhere.

Livingstones not listed in the England order which suggests they are also determined to start the series with Vince regardless of how he goes in the warm ups.

Mason Crane out of the test series.

Probably the best thing for him in the long run. Getting battered by the Kiwis, or being forced to carry the drinks, is hardly confidence inducing.

Livingstone bats at 3 for Lancs. Perfect replacement for Vince. Better fielder as well. Vince dropped a catch off Broad's bowling and Livingstone made a run out. Hope he gets a chance to bat tonight.

Great to see Leach finally get called up, about time, hopefully he will play, but can't see it happening

Hundred for Root in the warm up...and good that Stoneman got some time at the crease for 48. Most of the bats have at least had a decent hit out and the main bowlers have some overs under their belts.
Main selection question revolves around Stokes and whether or not he can bowl...rather an important issue given the poor backup for Anderson in Australia. Not that there is any useful alternative as an all rounder...

Leach being called up in place of the injured Crane is indeed probably a good thing all round ; though unless they get a Bunsen (unlikely in NZ !) he is long odds to play. Moeen has at least taken some wickets in the warm up and looks set to play. So it is really just two things need a decision : bowler/batsman balance (see the Stokes issue) and whether it is worth persevering with Vince . Your guess is as good as mine...

Hi Alfie - yeah, still not a complete turnaround by Stoneman but slightly encouraging at least.

Although I posted the other day about preferring Moeen over a non bowling Stokes, I wouldn't have a problem in choosing Stokes purely as a batsman ahead of Vince. That would allow Overton to play as a fourth seamer and still see a decent enough batsman as Woakes at number 8.

I too can't see Leach playing. Unlike Goose (who, if he's unsure, consistently never has a good word to say about anyone! ), I rather like Sodhi. I was impressed by him anyway when I was at Eden Park last month for the t20 tri-series final. I appreciate that likening Tests to international t20s is similar to equating apples and orangutans but did still wonder if a place might usefully be found for him in the Test side as a second spinner (to support Santner as things then looked). My Kiwi hosts understood where I was coming from and why but were firmly of the view that their chosen reliance on three proven seamers at Test level plus suitable tracks to support them would not justify the selection of a second frontline slow bowler.

Yeah we haven't really discussed the NZ side, but the injury to Santner is a big one for them - especially with the form he was in with the bat, he probably would've played at 6 and been the spinner - now do they shift everyone up one and slot in Astle or do they go for an all seam attack and include Henry?

I've heard it's difficult to deal with losing an all-rounder like that, seems to ruin the balance of a team. Not sure where I learned that

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I've heard it's difficult to deal with losing an all-rounder like that, seems to ruin the balance of a team. Not sure where I learned that

Hi Dolph - one of Santner's strengths is his control. Not sure how much that applies to the all-rounder you might be trying to think of.

Not just because of my moniker, but I find the complete lack of time in the middle for Foakes a worry. Class act behind the stumps as he is, he surely would struggle to acclimatise quickly enough if Bairstow suddenly picked up an injury or fell ill between now and the First Test. Might just as well have taken an extra squad batsman or bowler.

Guptill added to the NZ squad - last minute doubts over Taylor’s fitness?

11/8 available on New Zealand to win the test series on the 'draw no bet' market. That would be superb value on the outright market alone, let alone having insurance to go with it!

Time to break open the bank, again. Bloody bookmakers are bloody clueless.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Guptill added to the NZ squad - last minute doubts over Taylor’s fitness?

Cricinfo reports hes doing well but yes its cover for him following the injury he picked up the ODIs
NZ batting is very short without him, and not exactly deep with him. Guptils capable of taking the attack to England but really would leave NZ looking very fragile. Staner missing ..assuming Sodhi comes in for them knocks the batting slightly too, although he was always too high at 6. BJ Wattling is OK but nowhere near Bairstows class with the bat.
Whilst England also have issues with their top 5 from 7 down they will be far stronger with the bat than NZ are...although we said that about Aus

Latest reports are that Stokes will be fit to bowl, albeit likley as a reserve/fifth bowling option which is pretty much his role anyway. That answers a lot of the questions for England and avoids difficult choices. Dropping Vince to accomodate a non bowling Stokes wouldve been all well an good , but who goes at 3? Moeen will almost certainly play. Woakes presumably at 9. Essentially back to the side they wouldve started the Ashes with, no revolution ..no chucking the baby out with the bathwater etc.

A remaining question seems to be whether or not Broad will get the new ball. It was given to Wood and Woakes in the warm ups.

As Goose rather suggests, where England should have a significant advantage is with the bat between numbers 6 and 8 or 9 (depending where Woakes goes in).

Santner's loss is a big blow for New Zealand, not least his cricketing intelligence and the balance he brought to the side. Btw, Goose, Sodhi still misses out with Astle having been called up.

So looks like England will be - Cook, Stoneman, Vince, Root, Malan, Stokes, Bairstow, Ali, Woakes, Broad, Anderson

Likely NZ side is - Raval, Latham, Williamson, Taylor, Nicholls, Watling, De Grandhomme, Astle, Southee, Wagner, Boult

I think it's going to be a pretty tight couple of games - both sides have glaring strengths, and glaring weaknesses - I think Goose is right re: NZ's tail, not convinced by Nicholls/Watling, and De Grandhomme seems a place too high at 7. Albeit I think their pace attack of Boult, Southee and Wagner is extremely good, I think Wagner will cause England lots of issues.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:So looks like England will be - Cook, Stoneman, Vince, Root, Malan, Stokes, Bairstow, Ali, Woakes, Broad, Anderson

Likely NZ side is - Raval, Latham, Williamson, Taylor, Nicholls, Watling, De Grandhomme, Astle, Southee, Wagner, Boult

I think it's going to be a pretty tight couple of games - both sides have glaring strengths, and glaring weaknesses - I think Goose is right re: NZ's tail, not convinced by Nicholls/Watling, and De Grandhomme seems a place too high at 7. Albeit I think their pace attack of Boult, Southee and Wagner is extremely good, I think Wagner will cause England lots of issues.

Southee, Wagner and Boult are going to tear England's brittle batting order apart. I see plenty of low scores in this series!

Duty281 wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:So looks like England will be - Cook, Stoneman, Vince, Root, Malan, Stokes, Bairstow, Ali, Woakes, Broad, Anderson

Likely NZ side is - Raval, Latham, Williamson, Taylor, Nicholls, Watling, De Grandhomme, Astle, Southee, Wagner, Boult

I think it's going to be a pretty tight couple of games - both sides have glaring strengths, and glaring weaknesses - I think Goose is right re: NZ's tail, not convinced by Nicholls/Watling, and De Grandhomme seems a place too high at 7. Albeit I think their pace attack of Boult, Southee and Wagner is extremely good, I think Wagner will cause England lots of issues.

Southee, Wagner and Boult are going to tear England's brittle batting order apart. I see plenty of low scores in this series!

Maybe, Duty, although I'm not so convinced. The three Kiwi seamers are up there in the quality stakes but without Santner to exercise control they shouldn't be able to continually keep coming at us (as the Aussie fast men generally did with Lyon's valuable support).

Also - and I acknowledge there may be an element of desperation here - the New Zealand test outfields are smaller than in Australia, certainly at Eden Park. That may just allow someone like Stoneman the odd additional early boundary and a rebuilding of his confidence.

PS Olly - you seem very taken with Wagner. I'm not rubbishing the guy for a moment but why so much?

Duty - thanks for setting up a new thread and well called. Unlike me! Hope you were heavily on it.

In slightly odd news, it looks as though Ed Smith is going to become the new national selector in the shake up of the whole process.

In principle I like the change. Takes any accusation of bias, whether it was conscious or not, out of the equation. As Newell, Fraser et al. will only naturally see the most of their county and who they play! The new team of scouts should mean more County cricket is watched.

However, Ed Smith has always struck me as a slightly faux-intellectual - in the Matthew Syed, Dan Hannan mould. Where an article isn’t an article unless he references a poet no-one has heard of.

So we will see how it goes! Will be interesting to see the changes in selection brought about because of this.

That is certainly a left field appointment - imagine this is good news for the likes of Vince...Smith always been one who likes players who are good on the eye!

Ed Smith is a huge fan of the moneyball approach.

Gooseberry wrote:Both Hales and Rashid have ditched long form cricket and wont be playing in the CC. That pretty much rules them out of tests.

In the case of Rashid is does seem that his exclusion from the winter test squads signalled that England have finaly given up on messing him around despite his solid perfomances the previous winter in Asia.
Hales obviously hasnt been in the test side for some time, but could maybe have pushed again for place with continued uncertainty in Englands top 3. His record had been better than most of the other post Strauss top order bats.

This also further underlines the shift to specialist limited overs players, and desire for them to make money on the global T20 circuit. That could be a huge problem for the CC, and ultimately the test team. The positive spin on it would be that it will encvourage counties to devleope specialist 4 day players more suited to test cricket, but the reality is a further drop in standards and more talent choosing to chase the big money on the limited overs circuit forgoing long form cricket altogether.


Also Bayliss has said hes open to giving up the T20 role, and indicated he cared for the current mini torunament about as much as the fans did. Farbrace could take over as full time coach there.
Whilst its been ineviatble that there would be spllit coaching at some point this does worry me a bit.
I dont think hes doen a great job with the test team and he was seen as a limited overs specialist, if anything Id rather he was looking to ditch tests than T20 and England look to get a fresh outlook their instead. But understandable he wouldnt.
We have already seen the T20 side sidelined and treated as an annoyance. Its rare to see a sfull strength line up fielded outside of the world cup. With a split coaching role its likely that Bayliss will be even less inclined to want his key multi format players fielded for "meaningless" T20 internationals, and team building could get even harder.

At Surrey's AGM last night Alec Stewart was of the opinion that both Hales and Rashid would be back playing red ball cricket in a year. He thought their game would suffer not playing red ball and that they would be unlikely to get IPL deals going forward.