England Six Nations Thread

[ChequeredJersey]

First topic message reminder :

In that case LIW, Ill put my money on it being the following.

6 Lawes
7 Robshaw
8 Hughes

Hughes off knackered after about 50/55 mins.
Robshaw to 8 then Underhill on at 7.

I cant see Jones bringing Mercer up just yet.

Haskell is back in to so may come into the reckoning as starter or bench cover although might be harsh on Underhill.

Could be tried & tested.

6. Robshaw
7. Haskell
8. Hughes

Lawes covering bench

I think we need to Focus on Underhill now. Unless we're REALLY struggling for an 8, then possibly pop Haskell in.

6 Robshaw
7 Underhill
8 Haskell

Robshaw, Frodo, Hughes. Hask on bench

[No 7&1/2]

That makes some good points guns but slightly forced. Think vunipola has been surprisingly good especially scrum time which is important given we were without Marler. Lunchbury just continues his excellent form from last year.

[carpet baboon]

Underhill out of France game. Hartley a doubt. Nowell out of the tournament

[majesticimperialman]

That will be interesting too see how George goes in his first game Starting as hooker.

Wonder who will come in for Nowell?

[Geordie]

Hartley will start...have no doubt

[No 7&1/2]

Solomona still in the wider squad. Suspect Daly will jump straight back in but could be interesting.

[rugby4cast]

How are we feeling about France? Our computer model gives England as favourites, but slightly closer than you (and I personally) might have thought.




We make it that England will likely need a bonus point to keep their title chances alive. However, they don't usually score big in Paris and actually would never have scored a bonus point in Six Nations history in this fixture. However, the rankings difference has never been as great in the past 40 years.




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[kingelderfield]

The back row is the issue. If we carry on with 3+3+2 then everything else is a compromised approach. If we go with a real back row; e.g Robshaw, Hughes & Simmonds, then not only will we be able to compete, but we'll be able to again challenge our potential.

[yappysnap]

Robshaw, Haskell, Hughes/Simmonds would be my preferred backrow.

Launchbury and Lawes start at lock.

Two quality subs in Itoje and Simmonds

[king_carlos]

1.Mako 2.Hartley 3.Cole 4.Launchbury 5.Lawes 6.Robshaw 7.Haskell 8.Hughes

16.George 17.Marler 18.Sinckler 19.Itoje 20.Simmonds

That would be better balanced with a lot of experience in the starters and firepower on the bench.

[robbo277]

1.Mako 2.Hartley 3.Cole 4.Launchbury 5.Lawes 6.Robshaw 7.Haskell 8.Hughes

16.George 17.Marler 18.Sinckler 19.Itoje 20.Simmonds

That would be better balanced with a lot of experience in the starters and firepower on the bench.

Close enough with how I'd go, I'd be happy with that if that's how we started.

[robbo277]

How are we feeling about France? Our computer model gives England as favourites, but slightly closer than you (and I personally) might have thought.

The weather won't help. It's not like we can just tighten up and bully the French up front, we need to get on the front foot but put the ball through the hands to have any hope of the bonus point. I think it's a long shot. Not impossible, but not likely.

I wonder if Eddie Jones will even set the team up to get the bonus point, or whether he'll just be looking at taking a win to get back on track.

[SecretFly]

I wonder if Eddie Jones will even set the team up to get the bonus point, or whether he'll just be looking at taking a win to get back on track.

Bonus point.  
I don't really ever get the reasoning of 'let's not get too cocky here and just win'.  Winning is winning and if you can, why not go for the bonus too?  
One thing England won't do is sit on any lead they might gain.  They just don't sit at home and let a game play out.  So they'll go for anything that's on offer.... provided they are good enough to win in the first place.  
So I suppose it's France that will decide what England go for.  If France are pushing hard then a win will do of course, but if they're easy to slice open......

[LondonTiger]

That will be interesting too see how George goes in his first game Starting as hooker.

Jamie George has already started for England.

[Geordie]

England will lose the next 2 games.

[Scottrf]

England will lose the next 2 games.

I'll take that bet.

[Geordie]

I just have a feeling Scott...

I think France will be up for this and will hit their one game of the championship and Ireland are way ahead of everyone.

[Collapse2005]

I think it isn't a bad shout that England will lose to France. France have done two things quite well. They are defending very well (conceded least tries) and they are working well at the breakdown in particular Camara. The game is in Paris and England aren't looking as strong as they were. Also historically England have nearly always struggled in the lions year. Players like Itoje are not as effective this year it seems.

I always fancy Ireland to beat England even in Twickers but I think of the two games I have a hunch England might lose this one in Paris.

[propdavid_london]

Hartley is still a doubt - LCD is staying with the squad as is Sinks and Solomona. (cover for Nowell and Williams).

I like I am sure others would not be too upset for Hartley to step back and George to start. LCD coming in is unfortunate for Dunn who was in the earlier squads. But from what I saw in last weekends chiefs game, LCD is looking hungry and would be a useful player to launch off the bench.

[Geordie]

Hartley out would be a blessing.

Isnt it funny how one game can switch your opinion of someone so strongly. Ive always backed him...but that performance in Edinburgh was inept. Both performance and leadership.

[Poorfour]

Hartley is still a doubt - LCD is staying with the squad as is Sinks and Solomona. (cover for Nowell and Williams).

Sinckler's fast for a prop, but I don't think he's great cover for Nowell.... ;-)

[propdavid_london]

OK OK....wrong way round.

[No 7&1/2]

So I can see a good performance against France and a win. Perhaps with hartley perhaps not. I'd also say we'll beat ireland with a bit to spare. People are way too pessimistic.

[LondonTiger]

I always fancy Ireland to beat England even in Twickers

Though not something Ireland do very often, at Twickenham that is.

Just over the last 10 years (arguably a strong period for Ireland and not so much for England):

Played 6
Wins - England 5, Ireland 1
Points - England 134, Ireland 72


England could lose their next two games, just as equally they could win them and will be favourites to do so. Ireland to win the trophy, but England to get the "moral victory" of denying them a Grand Slam would be my best guess overall. So a role reversal of last season.

[LondonTiger]

Hartley is still a doubt - LCD is staying with the squad as is Sinks and Solomona. (cover for Nowell and Williams).

Sinckler's fast for a prop, but I don't think he's great cover for Nowell.... ;-)

Maybe, but I reckon Sinckler would be just as effective as Basteraud in a 13 shirt.

[Geordie]

Can you imagine losing to Ireland at Twickenham on St Paddys day.

It would be unbearable.

[Poorfour]

Hartley is still a doubt - LCD is staying with the squad as is Sinks and Solomona. (cover for Nowell and Williams).

Sinckler's fast for a prop, but I don't think he's great cover for Nowell.... ;-)

Maybe, but I reckon Sinckler would be just as effective as Basteraud in a 13 shirt.

Or 12. He can certainly kick and pass. But that would be a waste of what he can do to a scrum.

[Collapse2005]

Can you imagine losing to Ireland at Twickenham on St Paddys day.

It would be unbearable.

Haha for the grand slam potentially too.

[Geordie]

Can you imagine losing to Ireland at Twickenham on St Paddys day.

It would be unbearable.

Haha for the grand slam potentially too.

Ah, just unbearable.

The players should be raging animals headbutting walls and all sorts to make sure THAT doesn't happen!

[No 7&1/2]

On that point there was a comment from an England player who is escaping me at present that England set up to be consistent and thus try to negate the emotional element of preparation.

[Geordie]

Sometimes emotional element is essential.

[No 7&1/2]

Cool heads needed tho.

[SecretFly]

I always fancy Ireland to beat England even in Twickers

Though not something Ireland do very often, at Twickenham that is.

Just over the last 10 years (arguably a strong period for Ireland and not so much for England):

Played 6
Wins - England 5, Ireland 1
Points - England 134, Ireland 72


England could lose their next two games, just as equally they could win them and will be favourites to do so. Ireland to win the trophy, but England to get the "moral victory" of denying them a Grand Slam would be my best guess overall. So a role reversal of last season.

Both are very arguable.

In Ireland's case, well Joe Schmidt arrived for a reason.  The reason being a drastic downturn in Irish fortunes in the last few seasons of Kidney's reign.  We were down to 9th in the world rankings before Schmidt was parachuted in to steady the sinking boat.

So maybe it's best to just look at Joe Schmidt's Ireland v England record overall to think about what might happen in the future.

Played 5.  
England 3 - 2 Ireland
England 3 home games (1 WC warm-up game included)  - Ireland 2 home games
Points: England 73.  Ireland 65.  (So England, playing one home game more than Ireland in Joe Schmidt's tenure, score 8 points more in total.)

England's biggest winning margin 11.  Ireland's biggest winning margin 10.
England's smallest winning margin 3.  Ireland's smallest winning margin 4.


So it's close!

[SecretFly]

On that point there was a comment from an England player who is escaping me at present that England set up to be consistent and thus try to negate the emotional element of preparation.

Ireland do the same They've killed off the teeth grinding aggression and fury and are now solid numbers people that follow systems to the letter.

I'd love a bit of old bite to come back into the Irish game but it's of course risky. Red mist is frowned upon in these days with ever watchful TMOs (well the TMOs that are watchful anyway )

[LondonTiger]

Hartley is still a doubt - LCD is staying with the squad as is Sinks and Solomona. (cover for Nowell and Williams).

Sinckler's fast for a prop, but I don't think he's great cover for Nowell.... ;-)

Maybe, but I reckon Sinckler would be just as effective as Basteraud in a 13 shirt.

Or 12. He can certainly kick and pass. But that would be a waste of what he can do to a scrum.

Sinckler would be a better 12 than Basteraud, imo.

[No 7&1/2]

And that seems to reflect a little in consistency of results. Also coincides with both sides introducing the next generation of players who look pretty good as well.

[stub]

Can you imagine losing to Ireland at Twickenham on St Paddys day.

It would be unbearable.

Haha for the grand slam potentially too.

Ah, just unbearable.

The players should be raging animals headbutting walls and all sorts to make sure THAT doesn't happen!

This.

Absolutely couldn't agree more.

[Poorfour]

I always fancy Ireland to beat England even in Twickers

Though not something Ireland do very often, at Twickenham that is.

Just over the last 10 years (arguably a strong period for Ireland and not so much for England):

Played 6
Wins - England 5, Ireland 1
Points - England 134, Ireland 72


England could lose their next two games, just as equally they could win them and will be favourites to do so. Ireland to win the trophy, but England to get the "moral victory" of denying them a Grand Slam would be my best guess overall. So a role reversal of last season.

Both are very arguable.

In Ireland's case, well Joe Schmidt arrived for a reason.  The reason being a drastic downturn in Irish fortunes in the last few seasons of Kidney's reign.  We were down to 9th in the world rankings before Schmidt was parachuted in to steady the sinking boat.

So maybe it's best to just look at Joe Schmidt's Ireland v England record overall to think about what might happen in the future.

Played 5.  
England 3 - 2 Ireland
England 3 home games (1 WC warm-up game included)  - Ireland 2 home games
Points: England 73.  Ireland 65.  (So England, playing one home game more than Ireland in Joe Schmidt's tenure, score 8 points more in total.)

England's biggest winning margin 11.  Ireland's biggest winning margin 10.
England's smallest winning margin 3.  Ireland's smallest winning margin 4.


So it's close!

Well, except that the results, and the scorelines, have gone with home field advantage every time so far. It's likely to be a close game, but history favours England. Then again, history favoured England at Murrayfield, until it didn't.

For me the two big swing factors are simple:
1) How many more players will Ireland lose to injury?
2) Will England find a proper back row or persist with playing a lock at 6?

Ireland's rate of attrition hasn't been favourable to them so far, and England's unbalanced back row was their undoing against Scotland. The big difference is that the latter is fixable, if Eddie so chooses.

[Geordie]

I always fancy Ireland to beat England even in Twickers

Though not something Ireland do very often, at Twickenham that is.

Just over the last 10 years (arguably a strong period for Ireland and not so much for England):

Played 6
Wins - England 5, Ireland 1
Points - England 134, Ireland 72


England could lose their next two games, just as equally they could win them and will be favourites to do so. Ireland to win the trophy, but England to get the "moral victory" of denying them a Grand Slam would be my best guess overall. So a role reversal of last season.

Both are very arguable.

In Ireland's case, well Joe Schmidt arrived for a reason.  The reason being a drastic downturn in Irish fortunes in the last few seasons of Kidney's reign.  We were down to 9th in the world rankings before Schmidt was parachuted in to steady the sinking boat.

So maybe it's best to just look at Joe Schmidt's Ireland v England record overall to think about what might happen in the future.

Played 5.  
England 3 - 2 Ireland
England 3 home games (1 WC warm-up game included)  - Ireland 2 home games
Points: England 73.  Ireland 65.  (So England, playing one home game more than Ireland in Joe Schmidt's tenure, score 8 points more in total.)

England's biggest winning margin 11.  Ireland's biggest winning margin 10.
England's smallest winning margin 3.  Ireland's smallest winning margin 4.


So it's close!

Well, except that the results, and the scorelines, have gone with home field advantage every time so far. It's likely to be a close game, but history favours England. Then again, history favoured England at Murrayfield, until it didn't.

For me the two big swing factors are simple:
1) How many more players will Ireland lose to injury?
2) Will England find a proper back row or persist with playing a lock at 6?

Ireland's rate of attrition hasn't been favourable to them so far, and England's unbalanced back row was their undoing against Scotland. The big difference is that the latter is fixable, if Eddie so chooses.

That's the point!

[lostinwales]

Hartley is still a doubt - LCD is staying with the squad as is Sinks and Solomona. (cover for Nowell and Williams).

Sinckler's fast for a prop, but I don't think he's great cover for Nowell.... ;-)

Thnink Basteraud - It's not so surprising

[lostinwales]

Ireland have had some very good results but have not been as consistent as England, and you can also argue that the best 2 results ( killing of our and the AB's 18 game winning streaks) were either low pressure (the AB's in the USA) or the pressure was all on the other team.

The big ask for Ireland will be dealing with the pressure of playing for the GS away at Twickenham. If they pull it off then it will be a major step forward in their development, but it is going to be very hard.

[SecretFly]

Ireland's rate of attrition hasn't been favourable to them so far, and England's unbalanced back row was their undoing against Scotland. The big difference is that the latter is fixable, if Eddie so chooses.

That would be a relative opinion as it was the replacement players we feared most that virtually led Ireland from the front against a very useful, dangerous and experienced Welsh side.
So this thing depth. Everyone wants it in real terms rather than only hoping they have it if it's needed. Ireland are uncovering some ripe prospects at the moment and still are going pretty okay in the Championship. So perhaps - perhaps - the attrition episodes are a blessing in disguise.

[SecretFly]

Ireland have had some very good results but have not been as consistent as England, and you can also argue that the best 2 results ( killing of our and the AB's 18 game winning streaks) were either low pressure (the AB's in the USA) or the pressure was all on the other team.

The big ask for Ireland will be dealing with the pressure of playing for the GS away at Twickenham. If they pull it off then it will be a major step forward in their development, but it is going to be very hard.

It's back to the attrition point. Ireland have traditionally been unable to replace like with like. Our National structures just weren't geared to get more than two players in each position up to high end International level. And more often than not, we couldn't achieve the 'two players in every position'.

Now our academies seem to be much more concentrated on quality of players coming in at an early stage. So bit by bit, those replacement players are becoming available to keep the performance levels reasonably high continuously. England have always had that pool of players to keep things churning at a reasonable high level.

[Collapse2005]

Ireland have had some very good results but have not been as consistent as England, and you can also argue that the best 2 results ( killing of our and the AB's 18 game winning streaks) were either low pressure (the AB's in the USA) or the pressure was all on the other team.

The big ask for Ireland will be dealing with the pressure of playing for the GS away at Twickenham. If they pull it off then it will be a major step forward in their development, but it is going to be very hard.

Ireland are on a 10 match winning streak. Is that not quite consistent? England have lost twice in that period.

[kingelderfield]

Right now selection trumps strategy, though obviously each informs the other.
What I'm keen to understand is everyone else's expectation, specifically regarding our back row?
I just can't see the case to continue as we are and so am really hoping that we now get our selection and so strategy sorted.

[kingelderfield]

You've got to fancy a Cipriani Farrell partnership..........

[No 7&1/2]

Before underhill was injured you'd have favoured I'm to come in. Now it opens the door again for lawes especially given the weather is likely to be wet. Strong set piece a must and he does strengthen he lineout. Fo me haskell back in and simmonds on the bench. Cipriani isn't in the squad and isn't he off to france anyway?

[kingelderfield]

Cipriani is going to have to put up with a Premiership winners medal, but that a side, I just like the 'opposite's attract' scenero, with each complementing the other.
Both are strong personalities and would be right spikey to play against, as well as very exciting to watch. Of course Ford has the shirt but never say never as things can change, so its always worth considering the Wasps alternative.
If we continue to play Lawes in the B row then I would suggest our chances of losing markedly increase. I think it would be obvious to anyone that the tackle / ruck is the crucible of the Law Changes and modern game and so to neglect possession is to basically give the game away before the whistle is blown to start.

[No 7&1/2]

We can get away with it should simmonds come in for Hughes. Smith is the next attacking talent. May well push at some point this year. As it is ford and Farrell bar injuries his 6n

[kingelderfield]

Simmonds is a 7
Smith is a long way off international exposure.
Change is the only constant, there's always a sting in the tail gunner:)

[No 7&1/2]

Simmonds can play either I think. Good showings from 8 so far though. It may make more sense to play him rather than Hughes as he is probably still fitter.

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