20th Gathering of Edinburgh and Glasgow Discussion

by Hazel Sapling Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:19 am

First topic message reminder :

Edinburgh Squad

LH's: Schoeman, Dell, Marfo, Sutherland
Hookers: McInally, Ford, Fenton, Cherry
TH's: Nel, Berghan, McCallum, Ceccarelli
Second Row: Gilchrist, Toolis, McKenzie, Carmichael, Hunter-Hill
Back Row: Barclay, Hamilton, Crosbie; Watson, Ritchie; Bradbury, Mata, Miller, Nayalo

SH's: Pyrgos, Fowles, Kennedy, Shiel
FH's: Hickey, VDW, McLelland, Baggott
Centres: Scott, Socino, Bennett, Dean, Johnstone, G Taylor
Back 3: Fife, VDM, Hoyland, Brown, Graham; Kinghorn

Forward Total: 26
- Internationals: 16 (14 Scots, 1 Italian, 1 Fijian)
- NSQ: 4 (1 of whom is a project)
- Under 25 (as of September 1st, 2018): 7 (2 capped)
Backs Total: 20
- Internationals: 8 (Socino lone non-Scot)
- NSQ: 4 (2 projects)
- Under 25 (as of September 1st, 2018): 10 (2 capped)

Total: 46

Glasgow Squad

LH's: Bhatti, Allan, Kebble
Hookers: Brown, Turner, Stewart, Bryce
TH's: Fagerson, Nuka, Rae, Nicol
Second Row: Gray, Swinson, Cummings, McDonald, Brian, Peterson, Davidson
Back-Row: M Fagerson, Harley; Gibbins, Smith, Fusaro; Wilson, Ashe, Tameilau, Flockhart

SH's: Price, G Horne,Frisby, Mata, Baletto
FH's: Horne, Hastings, Jackson
Centres: Dunbar, H Jones, Johnson, Dunbar, Grigg, P Kelly
Back 3: Seymour, VDM, L Jones, Masaga, Tagive, Hughes, Beattie, Nairn; Hogg, Thomson

Forward Total: 27
- Internationals: 15 (12 Scots, 2 Americans, 1 Tongan)
- NSQ: 6 (2 projects)
- Under 25 (as of September 1st, 2018): 11 (4 capped, both projects)
Backs Total: 24
- Internationals: 14 (10 Scots, 1 Fijian, 1 Kiwi, 1 Canadian, 1 Aussie)
- NSQ: 4 (No projects if Thomson is already tied to SA)
- Under 25 (as of September 1st, 2018): 8 (1 capped)

Total: 51

Overall: 97 players
- Internationals: 53 (43 Scots)
- NSQ: 19 (5 projects)
- Under 25: 36 (9 capped)

by **BigGee** Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:33 pm

Pretty decent line up for Premier sports for the Scottish games commentary and analysis.

Dougie Vipond presenting, then in no particular order, Rory Lawson, Doddie Weir, Chris Paterson and Big Jim Hamilton.

A pretty decent representation for us, hard not to be happy with that.

by **RDW** Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:48 pm

I subscribed on Saturday but i still don't have access - tried chasing them on Facebook, Twitter and email and no response. I get the impression their customer care isn't very good!

by **BigGee** Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:30 pm

They are still doing the free trial on Virgin atm, so I should be ok for this weekend but I will have to stump up my tenner a month shortly afterwards.

It does look as if it is going to be a half decently presented format though from what we have seen and heard so far. I am very happy to give it a chance. I also managed to get a discount on the rest of my package when I told them I was going to abandon sky sports, which allowed me to hang on to it for less than I pay now. It will be quite nice to see how Finn and Greg are getting on in France from time to time!

by **RDW** Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:18 am

It’s D-day today for the SFA to decide on whether to stay ay Hampden or move to Murrayfield. This is a huge decision that will have big ramifications for Scottish Football, and if they choose Murrayfield the SRU will greatly benefit as well.

As far as I’m aware the main arguments are as follows:

Hampden

The historical, spiritual and emotional home of Scottish football with many great occasions over the years (although not so many lately!). Moving away from here would have the same emotional impact on the fans as if Scottish rugby decided to up roots and move to Glasgow (urgh).

The problem is, the SFA don’t own Hampden – Queens Park do – so they would have to buy it. SFA have offered £2M, QP want £6M, either way it is a bit of a steal to buy it. Problem is, Hampden is falling apart and needs around £50M of work done to it and the SFA currently have no way of raising that kind of money.

The financial implications of staying at Hampden are huge, and it’s all fair and well staying at your spiritual home but that doesn’t count for much if in 10 years you can’t afford it any more.

Murrayfield

Bigger stadium, more revenue for the SFA, more modern facilities, better atmosphere (Hampden really isn’t great), great transport links, not having to pay £50M to do up Hampden etc etc

The big stumbling blocks are that the SFA will still essentially just be renting their stadium, and that they will be doing it from the enemy (rugby). There are other issues as well – Police Scotland don’t want the move as 60,000 Old Firm fans travelling to Edinburgh at the same time for a cup final is not an appealing prospect, plus the move could lead to Queens Park ceasing to exist as they would need to pay back £12M in lottery funding, not to mention somehow pay for the redevelopment of Hampden (although chances are they would sell it to be demolished and changed into flats).

It is really difficult to call, but the SRU have apparently done a great job in selling Murrayfield. My money is on them staying at Hampden but I wouldn’t be surprised at all of they move to Murrayfield given the cost implications of having to do up Hampden.

by EWT Spoons Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:35 am

Murrayfield makes sense, given Scotland doesn’t need two national stadiums, it certainly doesn’t need 4, 50k+ stadiums within 40 miles of each other.

The sensible move would be to ditch hampden and take Scotland (footie) games round the country, with the bigger games being played at BT Murrayfield, however I believe the SFA have ruled that out.

The extra revenue is slightly misleading, as it’s based upon the assumption of filling BTMF, however Scotland football attendances have steadily been decreasing. Avg attendance is c30-40k, mostly because we have had a lot of midweek games against teams like Andorra (no offense), which no matter where the national team plays isn’t going to drag the fans out. However, the costs to the SFA would be reduced, so financially it apparently does make sense versus Hampden.

However, with all that said, the SFA are totally dysfunctional (think SRU 10 years ago, but less competent) so there is no way they’ll make the right choice, whatever one they choose they’ll find some way of f’ing it up

by **BigGee** Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:40 am

Maybe they will just move to Murrayfield whilst they do up Hampden!

I was only ever at Hampden a couple of times, for the Commonwealth Games and not for football, but it was patently obvious that it is not fit for purpose as a 21st century stadium. If you doubt that, go and watch a match at Wembley, or the Emirates, or even Murrayfield, which whilst not having the best sight lines, is miles better than Hampden.

It seems very doubtful that the SFA has, or will be to get the money to do the necessary refurbishment and if they did, like the SRU before them, it will nearly bankrupt them for the next 20 years!

No easy answers here, other than the obvious, why not use some of the other decent football venues that already exist? Though that option has apparently been rejected out of hand by the SFA board!

I feel a fudge coming up very quickly on the blind side!

by tigertattie Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:30 am

George Carlin wrote:
tigertattie wrote:
Edinburgh on the other hand play with structure. You know, like a proper rugby team and not a collection of individuals.
I share the sentiment but let's see Edinburgh win something first...

20th Gathering of Edinburgh and Glasgow Discussion - Page 15 Index10

by **George Carlin** Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:35 am

tigertattie wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
tigertattie wrote:
Edinburgh on the other hand play with structure. You know, like a proper rugby team and not a collection of individuals.
I share the sentiment but let's see Edinburgh win something that actually means something first...

Have clarified my original statement.

by IanBru Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:05 am

I've just subscribed to Premier Sports, purely on the basis of The Ruck Inspector himself now being signed up as an analyst.

I don't actually plan on watching any rugby, I just really hate my student neigbours (3am karaoke sessions of Michael Buble are never acceptable, even in conflict zones) and plan to push my subwoofer against our common wall and blast out that Bishopbriggs drawl every now and then

Yes it might mess up their exam preparation, but they'll begin dropping 'intehhhnsity' and 'wurk rate' into their essays.

by tigertattie Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:15 pm

IanBru wrote:I've just subscribed to Premier Sports, purely on the basis of The Ruck Inspector himself now being signed up as an analyst.

I don't actually plan on watching any rugby, I just really hate my student neigbours (3am karaoke sessions of Michael Buble are never acceptable, even in conflict zones) and plan to push my subwoofer against our common wall and blast out that Bishopbriggs drawl every now and then

Yes it might mess up their exam preparation, but they'll begin dropping 'intehhhnsity' and 'wurk rate' into their essays.

even with only sound, exposing them to the analytical theatrics of the ruck inspector will increase the students propensity to point at things

by tigertattie Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:16 pm

George Carlin wrote:
tigertattie wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
tigertattie wrote:
Edinburgh on the other hand play with structure. You know, like a proper rugby team and not a collection of individuals.
I share the sentiment but let's see Edinburgh win something that actually means something first...

Have clarified my original statement.

Yeah I suppose. Beating Glasgow isn't really something to crow about as it's too easy an achievement these days!

by Hazel Sapling Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:31 pm

The commentator in the BBC article suggested converting Hampden into a 30-35k stadium and play the biggest games (league cup semi-finals-top internationals) at MF. Ideally, Glasgow could play the 1872 games and any big European knockout games at the new Hampden as part of the exchange.

The SFU will probably try and find the money to redevelop at near the present capacity.

by EWT Spoons Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:36 pm

Won't happen HS, if the SFA move from hampden they won't redevelop it. They need to stump up £6m to buy it from Queens Park and that's one of the stumbling blocks. Plus a further £50m to redevelop it. Even if they reduce the attendance they'll still be well into the 10s of millions.

Also if they plan to use Hampden again they won't reduce the attendance.

It'll be status quo, or move to MF.

by **BigGee** Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:46 pm

The sums certainly don't add up for Hampden.

Interestingly there seems to be no great outcry about its possible demise either from football fans. Mark Palmer commented on this in a tweet last night and I saw another survey that showed that only 15% of fans wanted it to continue in its present form. The same survey did not show any great consensus for any of the other options either though, so that may or may not be a useful gauge.

If I was a football fan, I don't think I would be mad keen on the matches going to Murrayfield, but goodness knows what the answer is. Surely though, staying in Hampden as it stands, is not an option.

by EWT Spoons Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:50 pm

You're not looking in the right places BG, :-)

there is some proper mouth frothing at the prospect of it moving, similarly there is a lot of mouth frothing of it staying as is.

Problem Hampden has, is that it's a pain to get to for most football fans (outwith those living in Glasgow already), whereas Edinburgh is in theory easier (just what I am reading, given I live there it's already pretty easy for me). I think though one of the biggest gripes about Hampden is how far the fans are away from the pitch, which is going to be exactly the same at MF, so it's kind of making fans feel a bit nonplussed about either outcome as neither are great. Aside from the mad lot who i mentioned earlier.

by jimbopip Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:52 pm

tigertattie wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
tigertattie wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
tigertattie wrote:
Edinburgh on the other hand play with structure. You know, like a proper rugby team and not a collection of individuals.
I share the sentiment but let's see Edinburgh win something that actually means something first...

Have clarified my original statement.

Yeah I suppose. Beating Glasgow isn't really something to crow about as it's too easy an achievement these days!

Time will tell. furious

by funnyExiledScot Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:17 pm

I'm pretty sure they'll find a way to stay at Hampden, one way or another. The Tartan Army will go nuts if they are moved to Murrayfield away from their spiritual home. These people will put emotions well above common sense.

by **RDW** Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:05 pm

https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/news/national-stadium-update/?rid=14258

After months of reviewing submissions and holding lots of interviews with the SRU and the Hampden bid they've asked for an extra 7 days...

by funnyExiledScot Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:22 pm

Maybe the SFA can help us with Brexit....

by **RDW** Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:33 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/45338323

by TheMildlyFranticLlama Wed Aug 29, 2018 8:25 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/45338323

Ruck inspector wrote:"What I like about the Glasgow squad this year is it looks pretty settled. Dave's added players in a couple of areas, but ultimately he's going in with a pretty similar squad to last season. I think that's a positive.

There you go lads, it’s not a problem that you didn’t bring in any big nasty forwards coz big Al says it’s a positive. Hilarious article!

by funnyExiledScot Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:56 pm

Oh dear Lord! Is it possible that Kellock is even worse at punditry than he was at rucking??

At least Big Jim Hamilton will shake things up. He's hilarious!

by **RDW** Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:24 pm

All joking aside Brown and Gibbens are certainly top class forwards who won't take a backwards step, but Fagerson's development has seriously stalled recently and has been a big part of the Glasgow front row that has regularly been shunted about. He's certainly not someone you would turn to when in the trenches! He's 3rd choice at best for Scotland, and has a fight on his hands to not drop down further given that McCallum made the most of his involvment in the summer tour - they're both playing for a world cup place this season (although Fagerson is likely to get more gametime)..

Wilson talks the talk but lacks the physicality to front up against the big grunts!

by EWT Spoons Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:19 am

I would say I can't believe the SFA have asked for more time, but actually that was always going to happen. Guaranteed in a week they either;

A) ask for more time again
B) announce they are looking into more options
C) give themselves pay rises to cope with the stress of having to make this decision
D) Don't say anything in the hope that people forget about the whole thing
E) all of the above

With regards to Kellock's chat, oh dear.

by **RDW** Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:27 am

We've now had DR, Kenny Murray, Kellock and Ashe talk about the physicality thing in interviews - they're obviously all towing the party line but I think it's fair to say it is far more than just an elephant in the room for Glasgow given in every interview a journalist asks about it. They've talked the talk that it isn't a problem for Glasgow and it is all just about improving the detail - time to walk the walk!

by **George Carlin** Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:56 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/45338323

'Aggression' only counts for so much, Al.

20th Gathering of Edinburgh and Glasgow Discussion - Page 15 P048hzl4

by TheMildlyFranticLlama Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:16 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/45357067

Tom English talking up Edinburgh. Thankfully I'd say there is zero chance anyone in the Edinburgh side will be allowed to start believing their own hype with Cockers about. Can't wait for the season to start!

by EWT Spoons Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:19 pm

After reading that piece for a second I thought about chucking some money on Edinburgh to win the league. However a quick glance over at the favorites who are also in Edinburgh's conference, soon put me off.

by **RDW** Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:24 pm

Everyone's hyping up Edinburgh and even I am beginning to get excited about our potential - will be a huge anti-climax to lose tomorrow even though we're not favourites!

by funnyExiledScot Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:20 pm

I do fear Edinburgh may be losing the expectations game here. Anything less than a 50 point win with Matt Scott (12) scoring a hat trick will feel disappointing.

Oh well, at least Salmond managed to con some Nats into suing the SNP. Something to snigger at....

by **RDW** Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:37 am

Everyone signed up for Premier Sports then?

If you're a Sky customer you also get access to the Premier Player app to watch games on a device (which can also be cast to your TV), but you have to subscribe to it

https://www.premierplayer.tv/subscribe/existing-customer

The reviews for the app are generally awful though!

by EWT Spoons Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:52 am

Currently with virgin who are offering Prem sports free until the 22/09 (I think) so holding off till then.

However I'll be signing up to the app/online thing as I'm trying to get rid of virgin and don't want to be tied to something that keeps me with them. However your chat about the app doesn't fill me with confidence.

by **RDW** Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:28 am

Well back down to earth with a bump for Edinburgh! Trying to put a positive spin on things, a BP away to the Ospreys (who are undefeated at home in 2018) isn't a complete disaster, and we could have won it at the end despite playing so badly.

Saying that, we really weren't great - well into double figures for basic errors, very negative gameplan, attacking threat in the backs as a unit pretty much non-existent. In a strange way it might be a good thing we didn't steal it at the end as that may have distracted from how bad we were for most of the match. We did have good spells in the game but they were immediately ruined by a fumble, penalty or basic mistake - both the Ospreys tries came from when we were in attack.

The good

The Schoe looks to be a great signing - very powerful carrier and his scrummaging became more solid when Berghan went off. He'll be a great asset during international windows.

Hamish Watson and Bill Mata were their usual rampaging selves, although Watson didn't get a sniff at the breadown.

Matt Scott got well over the gainline every carry - it is going to be great having a physical presence at 12 again.

Pyrgos looks like he'll fit in well with the Edinburgh style, but it will take a bit of time for him to gel in the team and with a new half back - there wasn't a lot of joined up thinking at tmes.

The bad

Simon Berghan had two scrums and was smashed in both, plus he made a few mistakes. He was up against one of the top looseheads in the league, but he is meant to be an international class tighthead. Hopefully it was just rustiness as it was his first game of the season. Jim Hamilton reckons he's dropped 10kg over the summer - hope that hasn't made him lose his edge in the scrums. He coped just fine with his weight last season!

Luke Hamilton was completely average, only noticing him when he made mistakes. Jamie Ritchie made immedaite impact off the bench and Bradbury offer so much more. It is early days, but unless Hamilton improves significantly he will only be squad filler.

The 'meh'

Most of the rest of the team! Both second rows were average but again that should hopefully just be first game rustiness.

The backs generally were very average. Simon Hickey had a solid but very unspectacular debut - he sits very deep for a kiwi 10 who says he loves attacking. His goal kicking was good though.

Mark Bennett was pretty anonymous. Under Hodge's coaching we have struggled to get much from our 13 channel and Bennett must have been a frustrated figure at the end of the game as they just didn't work to get him in space. Same for our back 3 - they were living off scraps as opposed to specific plays to get them involved. The one backs move we did do was absolutely messed up, having just shuffled across the pitch and made a pass that wasn't on.

All and all a 4/10 performance with plenty to work on!

by **BigGee** Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:33 pm

The much vaunted Edinburgh pack did not really live up to expectations, albeit they were up against a decent Ospreys front 8. It was particularly surprising to see Bergham get pasted in the way he did. They actually looked a lot better when McCallam came on.

Hopefully just rustiness and a lack of match fitness, but they will need to play a lot better than that to live up to expectations this season.

by **BigGee** Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:20 pm

and so, despite all the crowing that came from the East about a changing of the guard, it would probably be fair to sum up the weekend along these lines.

Edinburgh lost a game they could have won and Glasgow won a game they should have lost!

Has anything really changed?

by **RDW** Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:25 pm

BigGee wrote:and so, despite all the crowing that came from the East about a changing of the guard, it would probably be fair to sum up the weekend along these lines.

Edinburgh lost a game they could have won and Glasgow won a game they should have lost!

Has anything really changed?

We've maybe got a little carried away but we are only one game in - it is going to be a long season.

What is true though is the league looks more competitive than it has ever been so there's going to be no easy games. Edinburgh have a really tough opening run of games and I hope we're not well off the pace by the time we get some wins.

Delighted to see Glasgow win and their pack finally standing up to the bullies!

by **RDW** Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:16 am

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/finn-russell-im-outside-my-comfort-zone-more-here-it-will-make-me-a-betterplayer-nz7s38nh0

Good interview with Finn Russell. He seems to be loving life in Paris and even reckons the days of flogging international players are gone - we'll see. Apparently Townsend has been to speak to the Racing coaches as well to discuss their plans for managing him.

Palmer also tweeted some quotes about the fallout between the SRU and his dad but that didn't appear in the article. This is the key one:

Russell: “it was great we managed to perform so well in the 6N, especially at home, because it showed the team is what Scottish rugby is all about, not the guys in the offices. The energy we create on the pitch, that’s Scottish rugby there, not what’s going on behind the scenes.”

by **RDW** Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:57 am

Contrasting post-match fortunes for Edinburgh and Glasgow - Edinburgh players had an 8 hour bus journey home, Glasgow players got to stay in Galway for a night out!

by **BigGee** Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:13 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Contrasting post-match fortunes for Edinburgh and Glasgow - Edinburgh players had an 8 hour bus journey home, Glasgow players got to stay in Galway for a night out!

Clearly a system of payment by results!

by **George Carlin** Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:39 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Contrasting post-match fortunes for Edinburgh and Glasgow - Edinburgh players had an 8 hour bus journey home, Glasgow players got to stay in Galway for a night out!

Not that surprising, is it? Have you been to Swansea? I would rather endure 8 hours of Willem Nel's flatulence in a rattley tin can.

by jimbopip Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:43 am

Interestingly, Glasgow seemed to have a Plan B; they were happy to go through long periods of possession and tried to wait for the openings to present themselves once the defence were stretched. Although this was not too successful there were far fewer signs of people running around as if their hair was on fire. In terms of the backs I thought G Horne and Hastings were non too clever in their decisions and DTH gave away too many penalties in the first half.

As for Always Luvvies, or Always Unacceptable Luvvies to paraphrase Cockers, they looked bereft of ideas behind the scrum. From a Scotland point of view Scott-Bennett will not be gracing Murrayfield again any time soon on that showing.

Still, it's early days. Munster next week should give us a much clearer idea about our pack.

Edinburgh looked like they couldn't score in a Basildon night club.

by **RDW** Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:53 pm

Russell v Laidlaw on Sky just now

by bsando Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:57 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Russell v Laidlaw on Sky just now

Cheers for the heads up!

by bsando Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:00 pm

Who would have thought Scotland's (arguably) 1st choice 9/10 would be representing two of the best clubs in France. And just as I write this Laidlaw slots a penalty and then Russell

by bsando Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:05 pm

And a rather tanned looking Gregor Townsend watching on from the crowd.

Nice break from Laidlaw..

by **RDW** Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:15 pm

Both have started well with Laidlaw playing very well - kicking like a dream and even made a break! He's helped by the Clermont pack being well on top just now though.

by **RDW** Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:28 pm

I've got to say, Laidlaw is looking very fit and sharp. He is having a bit of an armchair ride which helps!

by **RDW** Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:54 pm

Classic Finn Russell 2 minutes - lovely pass to put a player into space for a try, shortly after misses a penalty kick to touch!

by bsando Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:37 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Classic Finn Russell 2 minutes - lovely pass to put a player into space for a try, shortly after misses a penalty kick to touch!

Haha that was my exact thoughts!

Also agree that Laidlaw had a lovely game behind a very impressive Clermont pack who were Racing's worst nightmare at the breakdown. Racing tactics seemed to be for their 9 to pass it to the forwards 75% of the time which didn't really work well and made it easy for Clermont to defend and look for turnovers. Clermont looked very in control

by **RDW** Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:42 pm

Full-time Clermont pump Racing 17-40, with Laidlaw putting in a classic Laidlaw performance. He kicked like a dream and controlled the game well. He had the armchair of all armchair rides by his pack though!

Russell didn't have an enjoyable afternoon but was always going to struggle with no platform up front - he was a spectator in the team at times. As bsando said the Racing tactics are to control off 9 so russell is only brought in when they want to attack wide. I'm not sure he'll improve his game management much if this continues for a whole season!

I thought away wins in this league were impossible to come by?

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