American Hardcourt Season - Run up to USO

First topic message reminder :

Bit of a lull after the French and Wimbledon but still plenty of tournaments going on. You may have heard that Federer has pulled out of the Rogers Cup in Canada. Presumably means he'll play Cincinnati.
Main interest for British fans over next few weeks surrounds Murray. He did enough in his brief grass-court appearances to suggest he can get back to something like his best, although it's going to take time. The Djoko triumph at Wimbledon has really shaken things up at the top. At the start of this year I thought Djoko would bounce back and at that stage I could see him doing well at the French and Wimbledon. But his form up to Wimbledon was patchy so it was a surprise he won it.
Djoko must be regarded as one of the favourites for the USO. Just as I had a hunch Fed would not win Wimbledon this year, I reckon Rafa won't win the 2018 USO. What I am prepared to predict is that the winner in new York this year will be at least 29 years old (hedging my bets a bit here, as Cilic and Delpo are both still 29).

No name Bertie wrote:Thanks for the commentary

So Murray hangs tough, and fights it out to win in three.  He seems to have let the second set go to recoup energy.  He is showing tactical nous and resilience.  Sounds like he was pressuring Edmunds on his serve throughout the third set.

Thanks Bertie.

One thing there is no doubt about. The desire and passion for the game still burns very brightly within Andy.

A good win for Murray and an excellent chance now to get through at least one more round. However, ludicrous scheduling sees him finishing - possibly - in the middle of the night tonight.

Born Slippy wrote:The rule is a warning then loss of first serve for any subsequent failure. It doesn’t extend beyond that so far as I’m aware.

Okay so after a first warning the server loses their first serve each subsequent overrun of the stop clock.   They don't lose the point and they always get the second serve.  The Stop Clock is only used for the first serve and not the second serve.  

If that is the case then I think this is eminently fair and I support it.  The important thing for me is that they don't lose the point and they always get the second serve.   If they take too long in preparing for the first serve they lose it and that is all.

Another three setter for Murray in the third round wins in 3 hours and 2 minutes 6-7 6-3 7-6 against 93 ranked Marius Copil.  The match began just after midnight Washington time and has just finished at 3 minutes past 3 O'clock in the morning.  Crazy time - surely they must have been playing in an empty arena?

Murray comes through another tough match to beat Copil in 3 sets in a final set tiebreak and in tears afterwards. Reaching the Washington QF means a lot.

Nearly 3am in Washington so highly unlikely Andy will be able to do much in the QF tomorrow against De Minaur but it’s been a promising tournament nonetheless.

I have just noticed that Roger Federer turns 37 in five days time (8th August).

The already-crazy scheduling was further complicated by rain - hence the late finish. Andy is scheduled last on court tonight. No one can say he's not getting plenty of match practice.
I make it he's already risen from 800-something to around 370-380 in the rankings. I was a bit surprised he didn't aim to play Canada but after the long matches this week, it's probably just as well.
Elsewhere Cameron Norrie has had a good straight-sets win over Mannarino to make his second successive semi.

Born Slippy wrote:... Nearly 3am in Washington so highly unlikely Andy will be able to do much in the QF tomorrow against De Minaur but it’s been a promising tournament nonetheless.

Aussie Alex De Minaur is one of three 19 year olds in the top 100 (he turns 20 next February).  He is currently ranked 72 and if he beats a weary Andy Murray in the QF is predicted to enter the top 50.  Shapovalov (#26) and Tsitsipas (#32) are the other two 19 years olds in the top 100, although Tsitsipas turns 20 in about 10 days time.

Murray wept into his towel for moments on end after his long match. De Minaur was twice on court on Thursday so the tiredness may even itself out.

One might think Murray must be feeling the effects of muscular cramp and muscular wear and tear (three highly competitive three-setters in a row) - so maybe there is a chance of him pulling out just before the QF - giving himself a bit of time to assess his condition.  He would be expected to wake up with very stiff muscles and then hope they will loosen up by the time he is expected to play in the QF.  By the way, I hope Murray's tears were tears of joy / relief.

NNB- Here is the Murray quote on the weeping: “Just the emotions coming at the end of an extremely long day and a long match.”
Didn't realise that he'd actually been 5-0 up in the first-set tiebreak!

Murray also suggesting that he may not play the QF. Probably a sensible call this soon into his comeback.

The BBC, which I personally believe has sunk to the quality of a tabloid/comic and worse, has made a video story out of Andy Murray crying after his match.   I personally would rather they leave him alone in relation to such personal matters and focus on the actual match, maybe giving us a best of five shots, and telling us something about Murray's recovery programme.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/45057861

Absolutely delighted to see Murray progressing so well in his comeback...beating Edmund was a fine effort and following up at short notice with another win icing on the cake. If he isn't up to a QF right now fair enough , pull out...think this has been a good few days and he will know his own body best.

Hey Craig : did I see you on the BBC hys the other day valiantly trying to inject some rational comment into the tennis "arguments" ? A brave stand ; but you are up against an incredible wall of ignorance and stupidity there ...I really shouldn't read it for my blood pressure but it sometimes drags me in. Though I am not game to start a conversation with the trolls that infest the place...

alfie wrote:Absolutely delighted to see Murray progressing so well in his comeback...beating Edmund was a fine effort and following up at short notice with another win icing on the cake. If he isn't up to a QF right now fair enough , pull out...think this has been a good few days and he will know his own body best.

Hey Craig : did I see you on the BBC hys the other day valiantly trying to inject some rational comment into the tennis "arguments" ?  A brave stand ; but you are up against an incredible wall of ignorance and stupidity there ...I really shouldn't read it for my blood pressure but it sometimes drags me in. Though I am not game to start a conversation with the trolls that infest the place...

Yes alfie that was me. I do dip my toe in that cesspit from time to time in an effort to set the record straight.

I was working so didnt see the match overnight but it was a match he could have won in straights having been 5-0 up in the first set tie-break. In the end that set loss added about another hour of physical and mental hardship to the match. As I said the other day the competitive edge is definitely still there as the win shows despite the fatigue. I would say the best option would be to pull out of the QF and take satiisfaction from the ranking points and ranking spots gained and not push himself physically over the edge. He has built a nice little platform for Cincy.

Murray has pulled out of both Washington and Canada apparently. Probably sensible - particularly given it’s raining again currently. Hope it’s just precautionary and we see him even stronger in Cincy.

Also Wawrinka v Kyrgios in R1 in Canada. Should be interesting!

Born Slippy wrote:Murray has pulled out of both Washington and Canada apparently. Probably sensible - particularly given it’s raining again currently. Hope it’s just precautionary and we see him even stronger in Cincy.

I am not sure he was down to compete in Montreal. I know je was given a wildcard for Cincy.

Probably more rain was behind the Murray decision. I, too, didn't realise he was due to play Canada and he probably would have done so had he lost early in Washington.
Norrie was beaten in straight sets by Fognini and Konta also lost.

Can understand why Murray has pulled out of this tournament and Montreal. He has to be sensible with his physical condition. However, I think, that if he is ever going to get back into the top echelons of the game again he is going to have to find a way to finish matches more quickly. Even when he is more match fit I don't think he will be able to play two or three long matches back to back (like this week) without a knock on effect.

Calder106 wrote:Can understand why Murray has pulled out of this tournament and Montreal. He has to be sensible with his physical condition. However, I think, that if he is ever going to get back into the top echelons of the game again he is going to have to find a way to finish matches more quickly. Even when he is more match fit I don't think he will be able to play two or three long matches back to back (like this week) without a knock on effect.

Absolutely.

In an ideal world I'd like to see him go ultra-aggressive and look to shorten points but that would be like asking Frank Sinatra to make a punk record. Murray has always been a counter-puncher and his strengths are his defence and ability to return shots that others can't reach to extend the point and eventually win it. These strengths play to his strengths. His serve is not big enough to make him a serve volleyer and I am not sure he has the firepower on fore and backhand to be comfortable ending rallies far earlier than he is used to. He can find some great angles and that trait may aid him shortening points if he can find those angles early on in points. I would totally like to see him shorten points but just don't think it is possible for the reasons I mention.

Yes. Agree with that. One way that he could possibly play more short points is to be more consistent and have better placement on his serve. That is one of the reasons that Federer has such longevity. Even when the opponent gets the ball back the point is usually set up for a quick put away. Obviously doesn't help shorten points when returning.

I noticed that Murray after finishing his match with de Minaur Marius Copil (highlights now on youtube) walked towards the net, with his bottom sticking out (not tucked in) as if nursing a sore right hip.  This might have been more psychosomatic than somatic.  I couldn't see anything unusual with his movement during play (just a bit slower and perhaps not reading the ball direction as early as "prime Murray").  Then I looked at another match of Murray at Washington (the first round match) and it was more or less the same - Murray in normal gait (at least when tired) tends to stick his bottom out rather than tuck it in.  Then I looked at his Wimbledon 2013 final match - when he was walking out to play - and there was no "bottom sticking out" in his walking.   This is just my impressions on looking at a few youtube clips and highlights section.

What does this all mean?  I don't know.  As long as it doesn't affect his play and as long as he is not in pain - then he should still reach a level to challenge for the titles given the current state of men's tennis.  What I think he will have to do is to limit his schedule.  He did also mention that he will consider lightening the intensity and duration of his practising / preparation workloads.

ps I thought Alex De Minaur Marius Copil played really really well against Murray (at least in the 15 minutes highlights I saw).  I don't know whether he upped his game against Murray, but his serve was excellent, he played some excellent drop shorts and down the line winners.  He was a very strong adversary. Murray just had that bit more persistence, stamina, fight.

No name Bertie wrote:ps I thought Alex De Minaur played really really well against Murray (at least in the 15 minutes highlights I saw).  I don't know whether he upped his game against Murray, but his serve was excellent, he played some excellent drop shorts and down the line winners.  He was a very strong adversary. Murray just had that bit more persistence and stamina.

Not De Minaur. I think you may mean Marius Copil.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:ps I thought Alex De Minaur played really really well against Murray (at least in the 15 minutes highlights I saw).  I don't know whether he upped his game against Murray, but his serve was excellent, he played some excellent drop shorts and down the line winners.  He was a very strong adversary. Murray just had that bit more persistence and stamina.

Not De Minaur. I think you may mean Marius Copil.

Damnation you are right!  I forgot his name and took the first reasonably looking name I spotted in the above comments.  I'll make the corrections.

Delpo loses in straight sets in Los Cabos final to Fognini. A Zverev will play de Minaur in Washington final.
Interesting the difference in the wording of the Washington tourney director between his first utterance about the Murray possible pull out and his response when Murray finally did withdraw.
Reports suggest the Murray camp let it be known they were none too enamoured of the director's initial remarks. In his second response the director praised Murray fulsomely.
Most of the problems were actually caused by the Washington organisers. Yes, they had to contend with rain, but the scheduling was imbecilic.

sirfredperry wrote: ...   Interesting the difference in the wording of the Washington tourney director between his first utterance about the Murray possible pull out and his response when Murray finally did withdraw.
  Reports suggest the Murray camp let it be known they were none too enamoured of the director's initial remarks. In his second response the director praised Murray fulsomely.
  Most of the problems were actually caused by the Washington organisers. Yes, they had to contend with rain, but the scheduling was imbecilic.

I don't know how the Washington tournament director can expect anybody who has already bought a ticket to be expected to turn up at midnight to watch a rescheduled match especially during a weekday. It's not only an impossible schedule for the players it is an impossible rescheduling for the ticket holders.

You reap what you sow is the relevant saying across the board on this matter.

Firstly, the organisers demonstrated chronic ineptitude of starting play as late as 2.30 pm when matches were backlogged and rain forecast. Play should have been scheduled to start much earlier in the day at say 11am. To expect players to accept and be happy starting a match at midnight and finishing at gone 3am is crazy.

However, the same, I must say, must apply to Andy himself. If he had finished his matches off sooner the workload would not have been so great. He was taken to three sets in all three of his matches. Now certainly he could and should have finished the Copil match off in straight sets (he led the first set tie-break 5-0) and he would have finished an hour earlier and physically a little fresher.

Anyway onwards and upwards Andy.

Brave from Andy, wants to be fresh for the final slam of the year. He is doing it very methodically, I am impressed

CaledonianCraig wrote: ...  he could and should have finished the Copil match off in straight sets (he led the first set tie-break 5-0) and he would have finished an hour earlier and physically a little fresher ...

I watched the 16 minutes highlights on youtube (which now seems to have  been removed) - they showed several points in the first set tie break when Murray was 5-0 up and Copil started serving ace after ace and hitting return winners.  While I was watching it I didn't get the impression that Murray relaxed in any way during that tie break or gave it up - it's just that Copil hit a purple patch of form.  Even in the second set which Murray won 6-3 it was a titanic struggle with Murray saving break back point after break back point to keep ahead. I am not sure why Murray cried at the end - but it was a titanic effort from him throughout the match.

I would say the tears were out of the achievement. Months ago he was on the brink of never playing again and here he is a month into his comeback a quarter-finalist. That is how I see it.

Anyone else had trouble logging on today? Finally managed to get on to the site. The Canada tournaments have just started.

CaledonianCraig wrote:I would say the tears were out of the achievement. Months ago he was on the brink of never playing again and here he is a month into his comeback a quarter-finalist. That is how I see it.

I would say it is - at one and the same time - both as complex and as simple as you imply here.

It is a fact that many people go through far more traumatic difficulties and personal challenges in their normal, everyday lives. But, in pure sporting terms, this has undoubtedly been a tough twelve months for Murray.

Well done Andy on getting yourself to this point

Yes - the whole site was down for some time - I assume for maintenance or some sort of update. And there still seems to be a few issues.

With regard Murray - I would have liked him to have entered some challenger events - where the intensity, determination and skill level of the opposition might have been expected to be less - or at least mix it up (ATP & challenger). It seems quite clear that in training / practice you can never reproduce a tournament level match be it at challenger or ATP level.

Anyway as it stands we have got more or less everybody back playing in the men's game - although some are at different stages of their recoveries and some may not get back to their top level form (it seems Wawrinka is having difficulty).

Good to see Nishikori looks to be more or less back - as he is one I maybe unwisely stuck my neck out in picking as the most likely next new slam winner.

Edmund thrashed by Schwartzman in Toronto. Not been a good time for Kyle of late. Goffin was seen off in straight sets by Raonic. Now if only the Canadian could stay fit for a whole season....

Why was Edmund (number 16 in world) drawn against Schwartzman (number 12 in world) in the first round of the Rogers Cup Toronto.

Looking into things there were 16 seeds and no 15 seed who withdrew.  I assume then that when the seedings were made Edmund was not in the world's top 16.

The top 8 seeds got byes into the second round.

Edmund was at number 18 on 30/07. Moved up to 16 on 06/08. So you are right. The draw would be made when he was at number 18. Krygios who was at number 17, and still is, got the number 16 seeding. Jack Sock who has now dropped five places to number 18 still got the 13th seeding. He is also out beaten in 3 sets by Medvedev.

Yes, Edmund unlucky with the seeding but you would have thought he would have got more than three games against Schwartzman.
Some tasty match-ups today, starting with Stan the Man v Kyrgios. No love lost there after the Vekic-Kokkinakis incident a while back.

Heartening win for The Man who beats Kyrgios 1-6, 7-5, 7-5. May be better times ahead for Stan? Nishi, though, is out - beaten by Haase.

Later: Good win for Konta who takes out Ostapenko in three sets.

Stan wins another close match to make the last 16 - saving match points on the way. FAA narrowly loses to Medvedev - disappointing for him but he’s clearly making swift progress. Shapovalov looked very impressive in recovering from 0-4 in the second set to beat Fognini in straights. Tournament shaping up nicely.

Another good win for Konta, beating Azhashrieker in straight sets. Konta seems to be playing well again having dropped right down the rankings. Halep had a three-hour win (and has to play again later!)
Dimi edged Tiafoe in a final set tiebreak while Tsitsipas is a break up in the final set against Djoko.

Konta is either returning to form or has real issues with opponents who have returned to the tour after having a baby...

BBC reported 'shock loss for Djokovic', who lost a tight 3 setter to the v talented fast rising 19 year old Greek Tsitsipas in reality - Tsitsipas is having a fantastic breakthrough year so far, and whilst I didn't see the match surely the result is a more significant one for Tsitsipas than it is for Djokovic.

Another big scalp for Tsitsipas - this time he takes down Sasha Zverev in a battle of youth, having dropped the first set to the German. How far can he go ..... not purely in this event but in the years ahead .....

Dimitrov goes out to Anderson, managing a total of just four games in the process. Every time I think Grigor has all the talent to win a Slam, I quickly remind myself that it requires seven Bo5 wins in a row. And to date there have been few signs of such consistency.

Along with Shapovalov, Tsitsipas is the up and coming player whose game I find the most enjoyable to watch. What impresses me the most about the young Greek's rise this year has been how he has managed it on all surfaces - reached a claycourt final against Nadal, 4th round at Wimbledon (where he showed willingness to come to the net) and now semi-final on the Toronto hardcourts.

Tsitsipas showing he has the fight to win tough three setters. Is he going to continue onwards and upwards to a slam title or is he going to falter and reach a ceiling (often caused by injuries) as per other young hopefuls.

Tsitsipas into the final after a hard fought 6-7 6-4 7-6 win over Anderson. Having beaten 2 slam finalists (Thiem and Anderson), a multi-slam winner (Djokovic) and established top 5 player Zverev, its been a most impressive route to the final.

Its too early to tout him as future slam winner just yet but check out highlights of his matches on YouTube - v exciting player with single-handed backhand, varied game, and looks v tough mentally (came back from 5-2 down in 2nd set against Zverev) - definitely looks future top 5 material at least.

Another very hard fought three setter victory for Tsitsipas against the big powerful serving Kevin Anderson, who himself is in the form of his life. This has not been easy for him. I expect he might run out of gas in the final - where surely he will be up against Nadal. But the intensity and mental toughness needed to get this far in this tournament must give him some good experiences that he will be able to fall back on in tournaments to come.

Astonishing run by Tsitsipas, having dispatched four top 10ers. Rafa, though, will probably be a match too far.
Draw out for Cinci with the possibility of a third-round meeting of Fed and Murray. Stan the Man and delpo also in Rog's section.