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The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

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Post by Pot Hale Thu 30 Aug 2018, 10:16 am

First topic message reminder :

South African media reports emerging around comments made at PRO14 launch by SA Rugby president Mark Alexander that South African players will be better off playing in the northern hemisphere.

Alexander hinted South African rugby could be heading north on a more permanent basis in the near future.

The Cheetahs and Kings joined the Pro14 last year and there is a strong possibility that two more local teams will be included in the competition next season.

‘It’s a long-term investment. We have options now and in future. At some point in time, in future, if we don’t want to stay in the south [in Super Rugby], we can move north,’ said Alexander.

He added that the involvement of local players and coaches in Europe is beneficial for South African rugby.

‘The Pro14 is a good competition for the players and coaches who’re playing against tier-one nations each weekend. When we become a full Pro14 member next season, we’ll be the only nation who plays in the north and the south, and the major benefit of playing in the northern hemisphere is the players are better off.

‘With the structure of the Pro14 competition the way it is, it’s easier for travelling, with distances between places less than in the south, and the time zones are also better. When you consider player welfare and what’s best for them, then the north is better.’

The rumors are that it will be the Griquas and Pumas who will be proposed by SARU next season as their two new teams.  How well that will be received by the other participating unions remains to be seen given the poor quality of the Kings thus far.    SARU plans to cut the number of professional players in their system from approx 900 to 400 odd using a draft system and to spread the talent across the 8 professional teams.


Last edited by Pot Hale on Sun 16 Sep 2018, 12:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by RugbyFan100 Tue 15 Jan 2019, 6:18 pm

BamBam wrote:Why do the Welsh always want to piggy back on the back of English success?

Surely its time they ran an independence campaign, I strongly hoped Scotland voted to stay as part of the union but would sure as hell back Welsh independence

Not just that poster. Me too. And whole swathes of others that know what would be truly best for Welsh rugby.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Tue 15 Jan 2019, 6:20 pm

Brendan wrote:

Private team - Union pays team an agreed amount to use the players. If the team needs more money it's not the unions problem

So if the Welsh teams want more money it's not the union's problem.  You don't see the PRL or French clubs demanding money from their union because they did poorly or are in debt.


It certainly is the Unions problem when they dont offer the correct amount. Thus starving the regions of cash. Thus ensuring all the best players go overseas.

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Post by Brendan Tue 15 Jan 2019, 6:48 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Brendan wrote:

Private team - Union pays team an agreed amount to use the players. If the team needs more money it's not the unions problem

So if the Welsh teams want more money it's not the union's problem.  You don't see the PRL or French clubs demanding money from their union because they did poorly or are in debt.


It certainly is the Unions problem when they dont offer the correct amount. Thus starving the regions of cash. Thus ensuring all the best players go overseas.

Didn't the WRU and the Regions agree, so it's the right amount. How does it compare to the other private run union teams?
The Regions aren't starving just choosing not to make the most of what's out there. I'm sure they could have decent meals if they became the Ford Ospreys or the Emirate Blues. As a private run team it's up to themselves to eat out like the other people. Social welfare/Dole only goes so far.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Tue 15 Jan 2019, 6:55 pm

Brendan wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Brendan wrote:

Private team - Union pays team an agreed amount to use the players. If the team needs more money it's not the unions problem

So if the Welsh teams want more money it's not the union's problem.  You don't see the PRL or French clubs demanding money from their union because they did poorly or are in debt.


It certainly is the Unions problem when they dont offer the correct amount. Thus starving the regions of cash. Thus ensuring all the best players go overseas.

Didn't the WRU and the Regions agree, so it's the right amount. How does it compare to the other private run union teams?


At the last count it was alot less tan the English Brendan. So that would appear to be the market rate.

The Regions aren't starving just choosing not to make the most of what's out there. I'm sure they could have decent meals if they became the Ford Ospreys or the Emirate Blues.  As a private run team it's up to themselves to eat out like the other people.  Social welfare/Dole only goes so far.

So unbelievably misinformed. Nobody is stopping the Ospreys becoming the Ford Ospreys other than Ford. You think the multi millionaires that own the regions don't know how to do business?

Tell me then, Duncan Bannatyne, how they should go about making the most of what is "out there?

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Post by The Oracle Tue 15 Jan 2019, 7:32 pm

Brendan wrote:To be clear

Union Team - team where the union must put in as much money as is needed to run it to a standard the union is happy with

Private team - Union pays team an agreed amount to use the players. If the team needs more money it's not the unions problem

So if the Welsh teams want more money it's not the union's problem.  You don't see the PRL or French clubs demanding money from their union because they did poorly or are in debt.

The Blues asked the WRU to fund them for a bit while they did some development. Is that not asking to be a union team

Generally things with Debt are brought for little money.  Do any of the Regions have assets that exceed the debt.  Most stadiums are owned by other organisations

Umm, didn’t the English clubs demand more for the amount their players were away with England and that led to increased payments from the RFU?

Now I may be wrong, and often am, so I’m waiting for Phil to come along and correct me and add a nice verbal slap down with it for good effect. But isn’t the WRU a Union? And as such any big decisions like giving the regions a few extra million needs to be agreed by the member clubs? Who are unlikely to vote in favour of that as it will mean less for the grassroots and club game. So the union can’t just decide that those 4 teams will be ‘union teams’ and pump in x million extra. It’s got to go through a union process, surely? And because the WRU didn’t set up proper regions from the start the clubs that make up that union probably see themselves in competition with the ‘regions’ rather than part of some development pathway. Another unfortunate hangover from the shambles when they created the regions. In fact this all stems from that sorry episode 16 years ago, IMO. The WRU didn’t want the cost and risk of setting up 4 union sides so got the clubs and their owners to shoulder the cost and risk of doing so. They wanted the control without the risk. Increasingly they’ve wanted more control and influence and they’ve needed to pay for that (see payments for extra player release; NDCs so they can control how much certain players play and what position, etc). Now they want more control and the clubs are saying they’ve got to pay for that. I’m sure the English and French would demand the same.

One positive is that, compared to the past and the Roger Lewis days, there seems to be more harmony, at least between the regions and the WRU. The noises coming out of the current negotiating process are that they are all in this together, singing from the same hymn sheet and pulling in the same direction. That’s great so we’ll have to wait to see what the outcome is. It’s certainly new ground in the relationship between regions and union.
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Post by Brendan Tue 15 Jan 2019, 7:56 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Brendan wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Brendan wrote:

Private team - Union pays team an agreed amount to use the players. If the team needs more money it's not the unions problem

So if the Welsh teams want more money it's not the union's problem.  You don't see the PRL or French clubs demanding money from their union because they did poorly or are in debt.


It certainly is the Unions problem when they dont offer the correct amount. Thus starving the regions of cash. Thus ensuring all the best players go overseas.

Didn't the WRU and the Regions agree, so it's the right amount. How does it compare to the other private run union teams?


At the last count it was alot less tan the English Brendan. So that would appear to be the market rate.

The Regions aren't starving just choosing not to make the most of what's out there. I'm sure they could have decent meals if they became the Ford Ospreys or the Emirate Blues.  As a private run team it's up to themselves to eat out like the other people.  Social welfare/Dole only goes so far.

So unbelievably misinformed. Nobody is stopping the Ospreys becoming the Ford Ospreys other than Ford. You think the multi millionaires that own the regions don't know how to do business?

Tell me then, Duncan Bannatyne, how they should go about making the most of what is "out there?

I would hire a good management team and win games.  I don't think the Regions need more money as others do, they just need to be run better and have better in house standards.

If they do need to raise money they can look to soccer how to squeeze out every last drop.
I would get each row of the team to have a second shirt sponsors

Front row could be some deodorant - "our product will even make these guys smell nice
Second row would be vegetable company like Green Giant - "didn't your mother tell you vegetables would make you big"
Back row could be a gym - "go to the gym and smash everything"
Half backs would be some consulting firm - "we bring the brains to your operations"
Centres could be a dating app - like to be his centre partner, he can move, has good hands and he'll be tough when you need him.
Back three could be some some dance class - get those feet moving with us.

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Post by The Oracle Tue 15 Jan 2019, 8:09 pm

Unfortunately Brendan, it’s not an easy sell at the moment. You seem to be suggesting that the marketing departments are doing nothing to get investment in. But they’re working hard. The fact there’s no big name sponsors suggests big companies do not want to be sponsors, rather than the regions not trying to get them to be sponsors. To me at least. The Scarlets announced something like 11 kit sponsors at the start of the season so they’ve needed to go for many sponsors probably because they couldn’t get the equivalent sponsorship from a big one (incidentally I seem to remember someone moaning on here about the number of sponsors on their kit, ffs). So they’re working hard to get sponsorship. Perhaps harder than normal, looking at the Scarlets and the work needed to get so many.

But as I said, it’s a hard sell. I know it’s chicken and egg or vicious circle, or whichever one you want to call it. The product is not good (losing teams), the customers are not happy (low attendances), so for a big company it’s not something they perhaps want to be associated with at the moment. How to change that? Get wins and get the crowds back. But how do you do that? It needs investment. Who from? Rich club owners? They seem to have had enough and have little to show for the money pumped in already over the years.. The WRU? How do they justify pumping millions into businesses they do not own or control? How do they convince the clubs in the union to vote for that? And I think that’s where we have the impasse, or chicken/egg, or vicious circle thing going on. Maybe the new agreement will be the thing that breaks the stalemate. But as mentioned by others (Stone perhaps. Or Phil) the likelihood is that the thing to break the stalemate will be to focus on 2 sides rather than 4. That will probably mean either the league loses 2 sides and so needs to potentially look for 2 more. Or, we stick with four, but two of the sides entered by the WRU will be development sides and I can’t see that going down well with the sponsors or our friends from other nations in the Pro14. Putting kids teams out will not enhance the league or make it a bigger draw for sponsors, but it might mean the other two welsh sides are a bit stronger.
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Post by Brendan Tue 15 Jan 2019, 8:50 pm

It was tongue is cheek as I was asked how to make money.  Marketing teams are doing well. Still think the problem is poor management  the Union and Regions don't have a close relationship which they need to succeed.

If there were two good sides and two development sides what would change to make the good sides better than Ospreys and Scarlets currently are.  My fear is that we will have two team maybe as good as the top two currently and then we will have teams the Kings and Zebre will put their second string out against

The local league of Ireland team at the start of the season gets local business to give a set amount each week towards the player wages.  In the program each home game would say player x sponsored by y company.

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Post by The Oracle Tue 15 Jan 2019, 9:03 pm

Brendan wrote:It was tongue is cheek as I was asked how to make money.  Marketing teams are doing well. Still think the problem is poor management  the Union and Regions don't have a close relationship which they need to succeed.

If there were two good sides and two development sides what would change to make the good sides better than Ospreys and Scarlets currently are.  My fear is that we will have two team maybe as good as the top two currently and then we will have teams the Kings and Zebre will put their second string out against

The local league of Ireland team at the start of the season gets local business to give a set amount each week towards the player wages.  In the program each home game would say player x sponsored by y company.

On your first point, the thing to change them and make them better would be to strip the good players out of the other two teams and plonk them in the Ospreys and Scarlets. So the squads would have more quality throughout. It would be a tough sell (another tough sell!) as you’d be asking first choice players such as Hallam Amos at the Dragons to consign themselves to the bench at another region. Obviously they’d fight for their place but putting 4 sides into 2 would inevitably mean first choice players on the bench and I can see that not going down too well so we may end up seeing players leaving Wales and leaving the league in order to get first team rugby (like often happens in Scotland - although some of their fans are quite happy with this). The remaining two teams would be made up of academy players and players from the two good regions who are returning from injury or out of favour, I’d expect. They’d be coached by an up and coming coach with little experience too I expect. They’d have much smaller crowds probably and they’d be run on a shoestring budget.

On the marketing point - we’ve had that forever at the Dragons, and I seem to remember when I followed Newport R.F.C. pre-regions too. Always remember a few props sponsored by the local butcher! So it’s being done and remains to be done. I really don’t think they’re all wet being the ears, straight out of school marketing officers!

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Post by SecretFly Tue 15 Jan 2019, 9:51 pm

The Oracle wrote: Are they for sale? Would the WRU be able to afford them? Or want to own them?

I think they possibly would if it was a joined together long term plan for the future of Welsh rugby. But then the valuation... that would be the war then

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Post by Brendan Tue 15 Jan 2019, 11:05 pm

The Oracle wrote:
Brendan wrote:It was tongue is cheek as I was asked how to make money.  Marketing teams are doing well. Still think the problem is poor management  the Union and Regions don't have a close relationship which they need to succeed.

If there were two good sides and two development sides what would change to make the good sides better than Ospreys and Scarlets currently are.  My fear is that we will have two team maybe as good as the top two currently and then we will have teams the Kings and Zebre will put their second string out against

The local league of Ireland team at the start of the season gets local business to give a set amount each week towards the player wages.  In the program each home game would say player x sponsored by y company.

On your first point, the thing to change them and make them better would be to strip the good players out of the other two teams and plonk them in the Ospreys and Scarlets. So the squads would have more quality throughout. It would be a tough sell (another tough sell!) as you’d be asking first choice players such as Hallam Amos at the Dragons to consign themselves to the bench at another region. Obviously they’d fight for their place but putting 4 sides into 2 would inevitably mean first choice players on the bench and I can see that not going down too well so we may end up seeing players leaving Wales and leaving the league in order to get first team rugby (like often happens in Scotland - although some of their fans are quite happy with this). The remaining two teams would be made up of academy players and players from the two good regions who are returning from injury or out of favour, I’d expect. They’d be coached by an up and coming coach with little experience too I expect. They’d have much smaller crowds probably and they’d be run on a shoestring budget.

On the marketing point - we’ve had that forever at the Dragons, and I seem to remember when I followed Newport R.F.C. pre-regions too. Always remember a few props sponsored by the local butcher! So it’s being done and remains to be done. I really don’t think they’re all wet being the ears, straight out of school marketing officers!


I know they are doing alot.
Success on the field is the only thing which helped to get those sponsors for the Scarlets.

My one fear is the the two teams would be in the two big Cities

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Post by Irish Londoner Wed 16 Jan 2019, 8:38 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Brendan wrote:

Private team - Union pays team an agreed amount to use the players. If the team needs more money it's not the unions problem

So if the Welsh teams want more money it's not the union's problem.  You don't see the PRL or French clubs demanding money from their union because they did poorly or are in debt.


It certainly is the Unions problem when they dont offer the correct amount. Thus starving the regions of cash. Thus ensuring all the best players go overseas.

Phil told me a couple of days ago "By the way, the glut of rugby loving Welsh millionaires are already in situ. They already own the three teams. I'm not surprised that you didn't know that."

So if the union won't stump up the cash why haven't these "rugby loving Welsh millionaire owners" ?

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Post by The Oracle Wed 16 Jan 2019, 8:49 am

Brendan wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Brendan wrote:It was tongue is cheek as I was asked how to make money.  Marketing teams are doing well. Still think the problem is poor management  the Union and Regions don't have a close relationship which they need to succeed.

If there were two good sides and two development sides what would change to make the good sides better than Ospreys and Scarlets currently are.  My fear is that we will have two team maybe as good as the top two currently and then we will have teams the Kings and Zebre will put their second string out against

The local league of Ireland team at the start of the season gets local business to give a set amount each week towards the player wages.  In the program each home game would say player x sponsored by y company.

On your first point, the thing to change them and make them better would be to strip the good players out of the other two teams and plonk them in the Ospreys and Scarlets. So the squads would have more quality throughout. It would be a tough sell (another tough sell!) as you’d be asking first choice players such as Hallam Amos at the Dragons to consign themselves to the bench at another region. Obviously they’d fight for their place but putting 4 sides into 2 would inevitably mean first choice players on the bench and I can see that not going down too well so we may end up seeing players leaving Wales and leaving the league in order to get first team rugby (like often happens in Scotland - although some of their fans are quite happy with this). The remaining two teams would be made up of academy players and players from the two good regions who are returning from injury or out of favour, I’d expect. They’d be coached by an up and coming coach with little experience too I expect. They’d have much smaller crowds probably and they’d be run on a shoestring budget.

On the marketing point - we’ve had that forever at the Dragons, and I seem to remember when I followed Newport R.F.C. pre-regions too. Always remember a few props sponsored by the local butcher! So it’s being done and remains to be done. I really don’t think they’re all wet being the ears, straight out of school marketing officers!


I know they are doing alot.
Success on the field is the only thing which helped to get those sponsors for the Scarlets.

My one fear is the the two teams would be in the two big Cities

What, Cardiff and Newport? Wink
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Post by marty2086 Wed 16 Jan 2019, 8:56 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Brendan wrote:

Private team - Union pays team an agreed amount to use the players. If the team needs more money it's not the unions problem

So if the Welsh teams want more money it's not the union's problem.  You don't see the PRL or French clubs demanding money from their union because they did poorly or are in debt.


It certainly is the Unions problem when they dont offer the correct amount. Thus starving the regions of cash. Thus ensuring all the best players go overseas.

Whats the correct amount?

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 16 Jan 2019, 9:01 am

Irish Londoner wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Brendan wrote:

Private team - Union pays team an agreed amount to use the players. If the team needs more money it's not the unions problem

So if the Welsh teams want more money it's not the union's problem.  You don't see the PRL or French clubs demanding money from their union because they did poorly or are in debt.


It certainly is the Unions problem when they dont offer the correct amount. Thus starving the regions of cash. Thus ensuring all the best players go overseas.

Phil told me a couple of days ago "By the way, the glut of rugby loving Welsh millionaires are already in situ. They already own the three teams. I'm not surprised that you didn't know that."

So if the union won't stump up the cash why haven't these "rugby loving Welsh millionaire owners" ?

Because there would be no domestic pro rugby in Wales. A lovely chap called Phillip Davies puts over £2m of his own money into the Scarlets. To make them the 6th best funded team in the Pro14. Because without that they'd be about half as good as the dragons.

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Post by marty2086 Wed 16 Jan 2019, 9:02 am

Seems Premier Sports have surpassed their subscription target for this season, great news and bodes well for the future

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Post by marty2086 Wed 16 Jan 2019, 9:03 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Brendan wrote:

Private team - Union pays team an agreed amount to use the players. If the team needs more money it's not the unions problem

So if the Welsh teams want more money it's not the union's problem.  You don't see the PRL or French clubs demanding money from their union because they did poorly or are in debt.


It certainly is the Unions problem when they dont offer the correct amount. Thus starving the regions of cash. Thus ensuring all the best players go overseas.

Phil told me a couple of days ago "By the way, the glut of rugby loving Welsh millionaires are already in situ. They already own the three teams. I'm not surprised that you didn't know that."

So if the union won't stump up the cash why haven't these "rugby loving Welsh millionaire owners" ?

Because there would be no domestic pro rugby in Wales. A lovely chap called Phillip Davies puts over £2m of his own money into the Scarlets. To make them the 6th best funded team in the Pro14. Because without that they'd be about half as good as the dragons.

Don't think you've understood the question there

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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Jan 2019, 9:25 am


carpet baboon wrote:
Haha you really can't read.

Phil it's you that want the PRL. You phil. Not the WRU. Not PRL. You and your love for the English

Jesus wept, is that what you've succumbed to? How bad is that? If you'd meant "me" as the singular, rather than as the collective of Welsh rugby, you would have to be incredibly stupid to quote a post using the word "us".

Oh, hang on, that's exactly what you did.
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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Jan 2019, 9:31 am

Irish Londoner wrote:Just so I've got this right Phil:
1 - You would like the Welsh teams to join the English teams ?
2 - You think that the Irish provinces have no say whatsoever in how the IRFU is run ?
3 - You don't like the way the PRO14 is structured because you think it favours the Irish as they rest and rotate players and manage their welfare in order to prioritise the HEC and international game?

1 - Fully understand why you want that, it would bring in a lot more money to the Welsh clubs, however you also understand that it is very unlikely to happen. The last time the PRL fluttered it's eyelashes at Wales during the HEC restructure nothing came of it because when push came to shove there were a host of reasons (went over at the time) why it was a non starter. That position has not changed and with the influx of the CVC money why do the PRL need Welsh clubs, they might want to reform the English league somewhat and ringfence it but I can't see how Welsh clubs fit into that structure. If there was a window for this it's long closed and it would take a seismic change in domestic rugby to reopen it - maybe if the owners try a breakaway league they might invite the Welsh teams but could the Welsh afford to play with the big boys financially?
2 - That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Given that after the international matches the provinces are the major revenue generators then I'd suggest they have some input.
3 - The core problem with the PRO14 structure is the travel which reduces the number of away fans who travel- we all agree that, however until such time as a B & I League it's the way it is. If you have some suggestions for reforming it I'd be interested to hear them, rather than just complaints. What would make the PRO14 better for you and do you think most other Welsh fans feel the same ?

1. Yes.
2. What does "no say whatsoever" mean? These fine people run it http://www.irishrugby.ie/irfu/irfu_committee.php
3. Not quite. I dislike the PrO'14 for many reasons, one of which is that single entities can own multiple entrants, so that skews fair and level competition. I also dislike the blanket approach, set from high, to "rest" that also rules out a fair competition whereby the entrants themselves make such decisions, not one Aussie in a Dublin office. I could go on, but you've now hopefully got a flavour.

1. Yes, you're right. But you'll notice that I've not once claimed that PRL do want Welsh clubs.
2. I think that you need to understand that "the provinces" are just IRFU internal departments, but there we go.
3. There is no way to make the PrO'14 better. I know of only one or two supporters of Welsh teams who enjoy the PrO'14. That's just the way it is. Irish second teams and the rest are of little interest to the Welsh rugby public, as difficult as it may be for some Irish rugby followers to accept.
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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Jan 2019, 9:32 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:Staggering levels of comprehension, delusion and mistruth in this thread. Not one poster is able to address Phil's points and have a coherent argument. Brendan seemingly tried but got a bit lost in the financials and then very bizarrely said the Welsh regions wanted to be Union run sides. I did laugh at that. Isn't that the very thing they've been fighting to avoid becoming for 15 years?

At this point, the Pro14 is such an invalid, turgid, pointless competiton, I'd much rather take a punt on the Championship and play Cornish pirates and Ealing Trailfinders for a few years in the hope that we somehow get osmosized into the English structure.

It would be a risk worth taking as we are going to die soon stuck in this hellhole that is the awful Pro14.

The mistruth is all deliberate thought, isn't it? It's just followers of Irish rugby who are unable to comprehend that others have a different view on the PrO'14 from them.

I doubt many of these posters hold these views in any kind of sincerity or honesty. They are just playing the man for kicks (without realising who is getting the bruising).
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Post by Irish Londoner Wed 16 Jan 2019, 9:32 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Brendan wrote:

Private team - Union pays team an agreed amount to use the players. If the team needs more money it's not the unions problem

So if the Welsh teams want more money it's not the union's problem.  You don't see the PRL or French clubs demanding money from their union because they did poorly or are in debt.


It certainly is the Unions problem when they dont offer the correct amount. Thus starving the regions of cash. Thus ensuring all the best players go overseas.

Phil told me a couple of days ago "By the way, the glut of rugby loving Welsh millionaires are already in situ. They already own the three teams. I'm not surprised that you didn't know that."

So if the union won't stump up the cash why haven't these "rugby loving Welsh millionaire owners" ?

Because there would be no domestic pro rugby in Wales. A lovely chap called Phillip Davies puts over £2m of his own money into the Scarlets. To make them the 6th best funded team in the Pro14. Because without that they'd be about half as good as the dragons.

So why doesn't he put more money into them and make them the 4th best funded club in the PRO14 since the WRU can't won't do it - like the English club owners Phil admires so much ?

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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Jan 2019, 9:34 am

Irish Londoner wrote:
And we're back to why would Ealing want you ? It's their league and apart from the political shotstorm that would follow (the championship is owned/managed by the RFU) what would the Welsh bring to the party?
If they bring good teams then the other English clubs won't want rivals who might take the Premiership place away from them, if they are weaker than the English sides are the fans going to turn out to watch Scarlets V Doncaster in large numbers, how do the clubs get by without European rugby and the TV money from that, would the WRU give funding to clubs playing outside their jurisdiction, would they be allowed to, e.g. how would the RFU/PRL react if the IRFU took on London Irish as a "fifth province" based in England.

Ealing's Chairman has gone public noting that he'd be interested in his team joining the PrO'14.

I think that you're getting a little carried away with the detail, in that case.
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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Jan 2019, 9:35 am

Brendan wrote:
Glad someone understood it
If they are private teams they get paid by the union to use the players.  If they are union teams they get as much cash as the union deems they need.
Seems that for Philbb that point is to comlicated

It is comlicated as I've never seen that description before.

I'd be interested in learning as to why you think that a Union paying its supply chain to use their employees won't pay what the union deems that supply chain "needs", however. You see, there's the rather gaping hole in your thinking.
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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Jan 2019, 9:36 am

BamBam wrote:Why do the Welsh always want to piggy back on the back of English success?

Surely its time they ran an independence campaign, I strongly hoped Scotland voted to stay as part of the union but would sure as hell back Welsh independence

It's more a case of piggy backing on the M4, Champ.
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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 16 Jan 2019, 9:37 am

PhilBB wrote:

The mistruth is all deliberate thought, isn't it? It's just followers of Irish rugby who are unable to comprehend that others have a different view on the PrO'14 from them.

I doubt many of these posters hold these views in any kind of sincerity or honesty. They are just playing the man for kicks (without realising who is getting the bruising).

I'm really not sure. Some of the stuff leaks over to Twitter too. I mean that chap Martin actually accused you of being me on Twitter - until I showed up. Then he went a bit quiet. As per normal.

They seem to all revel in their own collective delusion. It's the old "If everybody agrees it didn't happen, then it didn't happen.....right?" scenario.

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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Jan 2019, 9:37 am

Brendan wrote:
The Blues asked the WRU to fund them for a bit while they did some development. Is that not asking to be a union team


That never happened, by the way. It would have been impossible for it to happen.
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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Jan 2019, 9:39 am

Brendan wrote:

Didn't the WRU and the Regions agree, so it's the right amount. How does it compare to the other private run union teams?
The Regions aren't starving just choosing not to make the most of what's out there. I'm sure they could have decent meals if they became the Ford Ospreys or the Emirate Blues.  As a private run team it's up to themselves to eat out like the other people.  Social welfare/Dole only goes so far.

Ok, so this piece of genius implies that our pro teams in Wales are deliberately placing themselves in poverty by turning down sponsorship deals that don't exist.

It just gets better and better......
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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 16 Jan 2019, 9:40 am

Irish Londoner wrote:

So why doesn't he put more money into them and make them the 4th best funded club in the PRO14 since the WRU can't won't do it - like the English club owners Phil admires so much ?

Do you know what.......... I bet he's never thought of that. I'll tell him next time I see him.

Champions Cup final here we come!

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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Jan 2019, 9:40 am

The Oracle wrote:

Umm, didn’t the English clubs demand more for the amount their players were away with England and that led to increased payments from the RFU?

Now I may be wrong, and often am, so I’m waiting for Phil to come along and correct me and add a nice verbal slap down with it for good effect. But isn’t the WRU a Union? And as such any big decisions like giving the regions a few extra million needs to be agreed by the member clubs? Who are unlikely to vote in favour of that as it will mean less for the grassroots and club game. So the union can’t just decide that those 4 teams will be ‘union teams’ and pump in x million extra. It’s got to go through a union process, surely? And because the WRU didn’t set up proper regions from the start the clubs that make up that union probably see themselves in competition with the ‘regions’ rather than part of some development pathway. Another unfortunate hangover from the shambles when they created the regions. In fact this all stems from that sorry episode 16 years ago, IMO. The WRU didn’t want the cost and risk of setting up 4 union sides  so got the clubs and their owners to shoulder the cost and risk of doing so. They wanted the control without the risk. Increasingly they’ve wanted more control and influence and they’ve needed to pay for that (see payments for extra player release; NDCs so they can control how much certain players play and what position, etc). Now they want more control and the clubs are saying they’ve got to pay for that. I’m sure the English and French would demand the same.
.

The actual existence of the PRB disproves this entire post. Even NDCs are coming to an end.
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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Jan 2019, 9:42 am

Brendan wrote:

I would hire a good management team and win games.  I don't think the Regions need more money as others do, they just need to be run better and have better in house standards.

If they do need to raise money they can look to soccer how to squeeze out every last drop.
I would get each row of the team to have a second shirt sponsors

Front row could be some deodorant - "our product will even make these guys smell nice
Second row would be vegetable company like Green Giant - "didn't your mother tell you vegetables would make you big"
Back row could be a gym - "go to the gym and smash everything"
Half backs would be some consulting firm - "we bring the brains to your operations"
Centres could be a dating app - like to be his centre partner, he can move, has good hands and he'll be tough when you need him.
Back three could be some some dance class - get those feet moving with us.

So a skint organisation can go out "and hire a good management team and win games". This gets better and better.

Each row of the team should have second shirt sponsors. I guess "Brendan" hasn't seen the shirts our pro teams play in.

Jesus wept. This is cringeworthy. Are you 14 years old?
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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Jan 2019, 9:43 am

Brendan wrote:It was tongue is cheek as I was asked how to make money.  Marketing teams are doing well. Still think the problem is poor management  the Union and Regions don't have a close relationship which they need to succeed.

Somebody hasn't heard of the PRB
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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Jan 2019, 9:44 am

Irish Londoner wrote:

Phil told me a couple of days ago "By the way, the glut of rugby loving Welsh millionaires are already in situ. They already own the three teams. I'm not surprised that you didn't know that."

So if the union won't stump up the cash why haven't these "rugby loving Welsh millionaire owners" ?

Because there is no future in the PrO'14!!!!!!!
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Post by marty2086 Wed 16 Jan 2019, 9:44 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:

The mistruth is all deliberate thought, isn't it? It's just followers of Irish rugby who are unable to comprehend that others have a different view on the PrO'14 from them.

I doubt many of these posters hold these views in any kind of sincerity or honesty. They are just playing the man for kicks (without realising who is getting the bruising).

I'm really not sure. Some of the stuff leaks over to Twitter too. I mean that chap Martin actually accused you of being me on Twitter - until I showed up. Then he went a bit quiet. As per normal.

They seem to all revel in their own collective delusion. It's the old "If everybody agrees it didn't happen, then it didn't happen.....right?" scenario.

Went quiet Laugh Laugh Laugh

You are a geg

I'm sure a fragile ego would never pretend to be someone else Rolling Eyes

As for going quiet, I notice you have on the above matters when pointed out you failed to grasp Londoners question or when asked what the correct amount is the WRU should be paying

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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Jan 2019, 9:45 am

Irish Londoner wrote:

So why doesn't he put more money into them and make them the 4th best funded club in the PRO14 since the WRU can't won't do it - like the English club owners Phil admires so much ?

Because the English club owners own their league so, by investing in their clubs, they are increasing the value of their assets (i.e. the club itself).

The PrO'14 is owned by the Unions in order for it to be a training ground for more important things.

That's one reason why CVC valued PRL so highly and KPMG gave a derisory valuation for the PrO'14.
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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Jan 2019, 9:47 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
I'm really not sure. Some of the stuff leaks over to Twitter too. I mean that chap Martin actually accused you of being me on Twitter - until I showed up. Then he went a bit quiet. As per normal.

They seem to all revel in their own collective delusion. It's the old "If everybody agrees it didn't happen, then it didn't happen.....right?" scenario.

Martin is genuinely stupid, however. That's been proven on many, many occasions - he couldn't add up to 23, he didn't even know who contracted the players of the team he claims to follow.

Your second paragraph is probably closer to the truth than my hope, however. Still, if you surround yourselves with "ah, de craic of der Pro14 is der best ting ever" then when some grumpy Welsh blokes start pointing out a few home truths, it must be a shock to the senses.
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Post by LordDowlais Wed 16 Jan 2019, 9:48 am

Perhaps the fact that the WRU are trying to put a plan together to combine the four regions into two will now show how I am right about the Pro14 failing in Wales.

What will happen now is, if this goes through, is the Dragons fans will more than likely go back to supporting their local sides, and either the Scarlets or Osprey fans will do the same.

Regional rugby is on a knife edge. The interest is dying. But at least I can now tell certain fans to get behind their regions. Very Happy

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Post by marty2086 Wed 16 Jan 2019, 9:49 am

LordDowlais wrote:Perhaps the fact that the WRU are trying to put a plan together to combine the four regions into two will now show how I am right about the Pro14 failing in Wales.

What will happen now is, if this goes through, is the Dragons fans will more than likely go back to supporting their local sides, and either the Scarlets or Osprey fans will do the same.

Regional rugby is on a knife edge. The interest is dying. But at least I can now tell certain fans to get behind their regions. Very Happy

You mean a plan that everyone has said is bs and the Dragons chairman apologised to his and Blues fans that they had to worry about that?

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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Jan 2019, 9:51 am

LordDowlais wrote:Perhaps the fact that the WRU are trying to put a plan together to combine the four regions into two will now show how I am right about the Pro14 failing in Wales.

What will happen now is, if this goes through, is the Dragons fans will more than likely go back to supporting their local sides, and either the Scarlets or Osprey fans will do the same.

Regional rugby is on a knife edge. The interest is dying. But at least I can now tell certain fans to get behind their regions. Very Happy

There is no such plan, according to Nigel Short at last night's supporter meeting.

So, we can now quit with that line of thought.
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Post by LordDowlais Wed 16 Jan 2019, 9:57 am

Where there is smoke there is fire.

Why do the members on here bury their heads in the sand all the time. Only about 2% of the people in Wales know or care about the Pro14.

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Post by marty2086 Wed 16 Jan 2019, 9:58 am

LordDowlais wrote:Where there is smoke there is fire.

Why do the members on here bury their heads in the sand all the time. Only about 2% of the people in Wales know or care about the Pro14.

And you base that on what exactly?

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Post by Irish Londoner Wed 16 Jan 2019, 10:00 am

1. Yes.
So we both agree the 1 is not happening without a huge shift not only in Welsh rugby but rugby across the board.

2. What does "no say whatsoever" mean? These fine people run it http://www.irishrugby.ie/irfu/irfu_committee.php
These fine people are voted for by the branches and clubs of the IRFU - so they vote for the people they think will do the best job - also there's lots of cooperation (and I'm sure a free and frank exchange of views) between the provincial coaches and the nations coaches. The provinces also generate their own revenue and sponsorships and of course also manage the game below the professional level.

3. Not quite. I dislike the PrO'14 for many reasons, one of which is that single entities can own multiple entrants, so that skews fair and level competition. I also dislike the blanket approach, set from high, to "rest" that also rules out a fair competition whereby the entrants themselves make such decisions, not one Aussie in a Dublin office. I could go on, but you've now hopefully got a flavour.
The entrants chose to delegate the running of the competition to a head official and their team, exactly the same as most sports organisations, they meet tell him what to do and then let him get on with it. Regarding the Irish fielding "rested" sides, in the current climate of player burnout, concussions and head injuries managing player time is something everyone should be looking at. the French clubs are well known for sending different squads to away league and European games and it's something the RFU are trying to resolve with the PRL clubs.

1. Yes, you're right. But you'll notice that I've not once claimed that PRL do want Welsh clubs.
So we both agree the 1 is not happening without a huge shift not only in Welsh rugby but rugby across the board - given that is there a constructive way forward ? Are you really going to carry a torch for an unrequited love ?

2. I think that you need to understand that "the provinces" are just IRFU internal departments, but there we go.
I agree with that but it's not just the case that the centre issues orders and the provinces have to obey. Also as a model it's working extremely well for both the provinces and the national team.

3. There is no way to make the PrO'14 better. I know of only one or two supporters of Welsh teams who enjoy the PrO'14. That's just the way it is. Irish second teams and the rest are of little interest to the Welsh rugby public, as difficult as it may be for some Irish rugby followers to accept.
From the comments on here over the years i think its more the case the the Welsh rugby public are not interested in the regions (remember disenfranchisement) rather than who they are playing, for example in European games the gates don't seem to rise much if the regions are playing an English or French club.
Irish rugby followers really don't care what Wales does or if your fans turn up or don't. What some of us care about is seeing the only country outside New Zealand where rugby could have a claim to be the national game decline. Rugby needs a strong Wales at club and country level and it would be a terrible shame if they lost that.

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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Jan 2019, 10:00 am

LordDowlais wrote:Only about 2% of the people in Wales know or care about the Pro14.

It only 62,000 people in Wales know or care about the PrO'14, S4C is doing really well as 47,000 of them watched Cheetahs vs Cardiff Blues

http://www.s4c.cymru/top20/rm/view_top20_welsh_progs/uploadid/1313/language/eng/
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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Jan 2019, 10:05 am

Irish Londoner wrote:1. Yes.
So we both agree the 1 is not happening without a huge shift not only in Welsh rugby but rugby across the board.


These fine people are voted for by the branches and clubs of the IRFU - so they vote for the people they think will do the best job - also there's lots of cooperation (and I'm sure a free and frank exchange of views) between the provincial coaches and the nations coaches. The provinces also generate their own revenue and sponsorships and of course also manage the game below the professional level.


The entrants chose to delegate the running of the competition to a head official and their team, exactly the same as most sports organisations, they meet tell him what to do and then let him get on with it. Regarding the Irish fielding "rested" sides, in the current climate of player burnout, concussions and head injuries managing player time is something everyone should be looking at. the French clubs are well known for sending different squads to away league and European games and it's something the RFU are trying to resolve with the PRL clubs.

1. Yes, you're right. But you'll notice that I've not once claimed that PRL do want Welsh clubs.
So we both agree the 1 is not happening without a huge shift not only in Welsh rugby but rugby across the board - given that is there a constructive way forward ? Are you really going to carry a torch for an unrequited love ?

2. I think that you need to understand that "the provinces" are just IRFU internal departments, but there we go.
I agree with that but it's not just the case that the centre issues orders and the provinces have to obey. Also as a model it's working extremely well for both the provinces and the national team.

3. There is no way to make the PrO'14 better. I know of only one or two supporters of Welsh teams who enjoy the PrO'14. That's just the way it is. Irish second teams and the rest are of little interest to the Welsh rugby public, as difficult as it may be for some Irish rugby followers to accept.
From the comments on here over the years i think its more the case the the Welsh rugby public are not interested in the regions (remember disenfranchisement) rather than who they are playing, for example in European games the gates don't seem to rise much if the regions are playing an English or French club.
Irish rugby followers really don't care what Wales does or if your fans turn up or don't. What some of us care about is seeing the only country outside New Zealand where rugby could have a claim to be the national game decline. Rugby needs a strong Wales at club and country level and it would be a terrible shame if they lost that.

It's difficult to follow your post because of the way you've constructed it, but there seems to be some confusion.

What does "The entrants chose to delegate the running of the competition to a head official and their team, exactly the same as most sports organisations, they meet tell him what to do and then let him get on with it." mean?

And I've no problem with rest, just resting en masse (especially for derbies) skews the league.

It is EXACTLY the case of the centre shouting orders and the departments obeying. Ask Joey Carberry or Stephen Moore.

Yes, I'll carry a torch for "unrequited love" as it's the only thing that would keep professional rugby flourishing in Wales.

If your exposure to Welsh rugby is solely what's on this message board and you're unwilling to accept the word of those far more ingrained into it than yourself, so be it. There's no point continuing, other than to say the message you've followed is complete bullpwp.

Rugby hasn't been the national sport in Wales in decades, by the way.
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Post by BamBam Wed 16 Jan 2019, 10:08 am

PhilBB wrote:
BamBam wrote:Why do the Welsh always want to piggy back on the back of English success?

Surely its time they ran an independence campaign, I strongly hoped Scotland voted to stay as part of the union but would sure as hell back Welsh independence

It's more a case of piggy backing on the M4, Champ.

Maybe Trump would be kind enough to lend us his wall builders while they aren't busy

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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Jan 2019, 10:09 am

BamBam wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
BamBam wrote:Why do the Welsh always want to piggy back on the back of English success?

Surely its time they ran an independence campaign, I strongly hoped Scotland voted to stay as part of the union but would sure as hell back Welsh independence

It's more a case of piggy backing on the M4, Champ.

Maybe Trump would be kind enough to lend us his wall builders while they aren't busy

That'll go hand in hand with dismantling the toll booths.
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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 16 Jan 2019, 10:21 am

BamBam wrote:Why do the Welsh always want to piggy back on the back of English success?


Personally, I wouldn't say it's the "success" that we need to piggy back on to, it's more English rugby full stop. England is where the rugby rivalry in Wales is, it's what captures the imagination of fans, and drives home real passion both on the pitch and on the terraces. Flying to Port Elizabeth with a third string doesn't really compare. Leinster are quite possibly the best club team on the planet at the moment, but that doesn't mean the juices flow every time a Welsh regional side plays them. Especially when they don't even send their best players to play in places like Wales. The pro14 is a massively flawed league.

What you're seeing now too, is that some (not all) of the English sides are beginning to treat the Champions Cup in the same way as the French sides do. Watching Gloucester play Munster and Leicester play Scarlets, and to a lesser extent - Exeter - you can just tell they weren't as up for it as they are when they play Gallagher Premiership games. Deep down their coaches must be sick of busting a gut with their first teams over the Xmas period - then watching Munster and Leinster 2nds share the wind about versus Connacht and Ulster to kepe their players fresh for the CCup and test rugby. What is the point?

Far better to save it all up for the Gallagher Prem where it's a level playing field. Who can blame them. The game is too far gone now - Union and Private owned sides are poles apart in their rugby structure and fixture make up. The game is broken.

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Post by munkian Wed 16 Jan 2019, 10:25 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
BamBam wrote:Why do the Welsh always want to piggy back on the back of English success?


Personally, I wouldn't say it's the "success" that we need to piggy back on to, it's more English rugby full stop. England is where the rugby rivalry in Wales is, it's what captures the imagination of fans, and drives home real passion both on the pitch and on the terraces. Flying to Port Elizabeth with a third string doesn't really compare. Leinster are quite possibly the best club team on the planet at the moment, but that doesn't mean the juices flow every time a Welsh regional side plays them. Especially when they don't even send their best players to play in places like Wales. The pro14 is a massively flawed league.

What you're seeing now too, is that some (not all) of the English sides are beginning to treat the Champions Cup in the same way as the French sides do. Watching Gloucester play Munster and Leicester play Scarlets, and to a lesser extent - Exeter - you can just tell they weren't as up for it as they are when they play Gallagher Premiership games. Deep down their coaches must be sick of busting a gut with their first teams over the Xmas period - then watching Munster and Leinster 2nds share the wind about versus Connacht and Ulster to kepe their players fresh for the CCup and test rugby. What is the point?

Far better to save it all up for the Gallagher Prem where it's a level playing field. Who can blame them. The game is too far gone now - Union and Private owned sides are poles apart in their rugby structure and fixture make up. The game is broken.

Its not English 'success' - its having a country with a population of 50 million more than us next door - commercially its a much better option.
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Post by PhilBB Wed 16 Jan 2019, 10:29 am

I'm really unsure as to why some seem to struggle with the fact that many Welsh rugby fans would prefer to drive to Bath, in under two hours, to watch their team play, rather than watch Leinster seconds turn up or, worst still, Zebre and co.

Why is that so hard to understand?
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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 16 Jan 2019, 10:29 am

munkian wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
BamBam wrote:Why do the Welsh always want to piggy back on the back of English success?


Personally, I wouldn't say it's the "success" that we need to piggy back on to, it's more English rugby full stop. England is where the rugby rivalry in Wales is, it's what captures the imagination of fans, and drives home real passion both on the pitch and on the terraces. Flying to Port Elizabeth with a third string doesn't really compare. Leinster are quite possibly the best club team on the planet at the moment, but that doesn't mean the juices flow every time a Welsh regional side plays them. Especially when they don't even send their best players to play in places like Wales. The pro14 is a massively flawed league.

What you're seeing now too, is that some (not all) of the English sides are beginning to treat the Champions Cup in the same way as the French sides do. Watching Gloucester play Munster and Leicester play Scarlets, and to a lesser extent - Exeter - you can just tell they weren't as up for it as they are when they play Gallagher Premiership games. Deep down their coaches must be sick of busting a gut with their first teams over the Xmas period - then watching Munster and Leinster 2nds share the wind about versus Connacht and Ulster to kepe their players fresh for the CCup and test rugby. What is the point?

Far better to save it all up for the Gallagher Prem where it's a level playing field. Who can blame them. The game is too far gone now - Union and Private owned sides are poles apart in their rugby structure and fixture make up. The game is broken.

Its not English 'success' - its having a country with a population of 50 million more than us next door - commercially its a much better option.

Spot on.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 16 Jan 2019, 10:30 am

PhilBB wrote:I'm really unsure as to why some seem to struggle with the fact that many Welsh rugby fans would prefer to drive to Bath, in under two hours, to watch their team play, rather than watch Leinster seconds turn up or, worst still, Zebre and co.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Superiority complex. Delusion. Arrogance. Ignorance. And everything in between.

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