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The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

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Post by Pot Hale on Thu 30 Aug 2018, 10:16 am

First topic message reminder :

South African media reports emerging around comments made at PRO14 launch by SA Rugby president Mark Alexander that South African players will be better off playing in the northern hemisphere.

Alexander hinted South African rugby could be heading north on a more permanent basis in the near future.

The Cheetahs and Kings joined the Pro14 last year and there is a strong possibility that two more local teams will be included in the competition next season.

‘It’s a long-term investment. We have options now and in future. At some point in time, in future, if we don’t want to stay in the south [in Super Rugby], we can move north,’ said Alexander.

He added that the involvement of local players and coaches in Europe is beneficial for South African rugby.

‘The Pro14 is a good competition for the players and coaches who’re playing against tier-one nations each weekend. When we become a full Pro14 member next season, we’ll be the only nation who plays in the north and the south, and the major benefit of playing in the northern hemisphere is the players are better off.

‘With the structure of the Pro14 competition the way it is, it’s easier for travelling, with distances between places less than in the south, and the time zones are also better. When you consider player welfare and what’s best for them, then the north is better.’

The rumors are that it will be the Griquas and Pumas who will be proposed by SARU next season as their two new teams.  How well that will be received by the other participating unions remains to be seen given the poor quality of the Kings thus far.    SARU plans to cut the number of professional players in their system from approx 900 to 400 odd using a draft system and to spread the talent across the 8 professional teams.


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Post by The Oracle on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 10:32 am

PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Only about 2% of the people in Wales know or care about the Pro14.

It only 62,000 people in Wales know or care about the PrO'14, S4C is doing really well as 47,000 of them watched Cheetahs vs Cardiff Blues

http://www.s4c.cymru/top20/rm/view_top20_welsh_progs/uploadid/1313/language/eng/


Laugh
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Post by munkian on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 10:34 am

The only issue I can see with a B&I league is that it would devalue the European cups even further.
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Post by marty2086 on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 10:34 am

The Oracle wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Only about 2% of the people in Wales know or care about the Pro14.

It only 62,000 people in Wales know or care about the PrO'14, S4C is doing really well as 47,000 of them watched Cheetahs vs Cardiff Blues

http://www.s4c.cymru/top20/rm/view_top20_welsh_progs/uploadid/1313/language/eng/


Laugh

Isn't S4C available across the UK?

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Post by BamBam on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 10:35 am

I think it is success. Its the success of having a league which is hard fought, has an established fan base with decent media coverage and has now attracted significant financial investment. Its not perfect, it may not be the ideal set up to benefit the England team but it is a successful league. Its that success (financial, media coverage, interest) that people want to piggy back on

I'm not a fan of any particular club side, I watch the games with more of an interest to how the internationals are playing, or whether there is new blood coming through who could potentially make the national side.

I have zero interest in supporting anything which may result in the Welsh club or national sides becoming stronger - why would we want to do you a favour?

I also couldn't care less if Welsh fans don't want to drive to Zebre or fly to South Africa, that's their problem not ours

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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 10:36 am

munkian wrote:The only issue I can see with a B&I league is that it would devalue the European cups even further.

The other major issue is single ownership of multiple entrants. For confirmation, see the blocking of Altrad's investment into Gloucester.
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Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 10:37 am

munkian wrote:The only issue I can see with a B&I league is that it would devalue the European cups even further.

If it was properly set up, there wouldn't really be a need for Euro Cups.

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Post by The Oracle on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 10:38 am

BamBam wrote:I think it is success. Its the success of having a league which is hard fought, has an established fan base with decent media coverage and has now attracted significant financial investment. Its not perfect, it may not be the ideal set up to benefit the England team but it is a successful league. Its that success (financial, media coverage, interest) that people want to piggy back on

I'm not a fan of any particular club side, I watch the games with more of an interest to how the internationals are playing, or whether there is new blood coming through who could potentially make the national side.

I have zero interest in supporting anything which may result in the Welsh club or national sides becoming stronger - why would we want to do you a favour?

I also couldn't care less if Welsh fans don't want to drive to Zebre or fly to South Africa, that's their problem not ours


I don't think anyone has said that you're not entitle to hold those views, have they?
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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 10:38 am

BamBam wrote:I think it is success.

It's simple to prove you wrong on this as many of us have been beating this drum since the Rebel Season, 20 years ago, when things weren't so successful.
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Post by munkian on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 10:39 am

BamBam wrote:I think it is success. Its the success of having a league which is hard fought, has an established fan base with decent media coverage and has now attracted significant financial investment. Its not perfect, it may not be the ideal set up to benefit the England team but it is a successful league. Its that success (financial, media coverage, interest) that people want to piggy back on

I'm not a fan of any particular club side, I watch the games with more of an interest to how the internationals are playing, or whether there is new blood coming through who could potentially make the national side.

I have zero interest in supporting anything which may result in the Welsh club or national sides becoming stronger - why would we want to do you a favour?

I also couldn't care less if Welsh fans don't want to drive to Zebre or fly to South Africa, that's their problem not ours

Which has nothing to do with being a significantly larger and wealthier nation ?
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Post by LordDowlais on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 10:39 am

The Gwent mafia when it comes to the Pro14 in Wales.

https://www.google.com/search?q=images+of+burying+your+head+in+the+sand&rlz=1C1GGRV_enGB751GB751&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=TgEFOxRLRyoZWM%253A%252C_eq0gAWztjD76M%252C_&usg=AI4_-kTTxYS4dkpEBhZvyGbgwl8chQUDrA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjvx56bjvLfAhXLURUIHXi8B4cQ9QEwAnoECAMQCA#imgrc=TgEFOxRLRyoZWM:

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Post by munkian on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 10:39 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
munkian wrote:The only issue I can see with a B&I league is that it would devalue the European cups even further.

If it was properly set up, there wouldn't really be a need for Euro Cups.

Why would you shut out a huge market like France ?
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 10:40 am

English sides do take the European cups seriously but what you're seeing is teams that aren't very good giving up as they stand sod all chance to progress thus turning their attention to the league which is very tight below the top 2. There aren't many good English sides at the moment or at least they're very inconsistent.

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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 10:40 am

munkian wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
munkian wrote:The only issue I can see with a B&I league is that it would devalue the European cups even further.

If it was properly set up, there wouldn't really be a need for Euro Cups.

Why would you shut out a huge market like France ?

It won't be long until that's a knock out Cup because there simply isn't room in the calendar for it (at the rate of money it makes).
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Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 10:42 am

munkian wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
munkian wrote:The only issue I can see with a B&I league is that it would devalue the European cups even further.

If it was properly set up, there wouldn't really be a need for Euro Cups.

Why would you shut out a huge market like France ?

Because it wouldn't yield any extra benefit.

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Post by marty2086 on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 10:58 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
munkian wrote:The only issue I can see with a B&I league is that it would devalue the European cups even further.

If it was properly set up, there wouldn't really be a need for Euro Cups.

And what kind of set up would generate the revenue of two competitions?

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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:01 am

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
munkian wrote:The only issue I can see with a B&I league is that it would devalue the European cups even further.

If it was properly set up, there wouldn't really be a need for Euro Cups.

And what kind of set up would generate the revenue of two competitions?

A new competition has to only generate €20m/14 for it to be interesting to the French, let's not forget.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:05 am

As the question was how would a British and Irish league generate the money of 2 comps as you suggested Europe comp was not required what would the French have to do with it?

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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:07 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:As the question was how would a British and Irish league generate the money of 2 comps as you suggested Europe comp was not required what would the French have to do with it?

I didn't suggest that the Europe comp "was not required" so you do seem confused.
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Post by BamBam on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:08 am

The Oracle wrote:

I don't think anyone has said that you're not entitle to hold those views, have they?
I assumed the below was aimed at me questioning why certain Welsh fans want to piggy back on English success
PhilBB wrote:I'm really unsure as to why some seem to struggle with the fact that many Welsh rugby fans would prefer to drive to Bath, in under two hours, to watch their team play, rather than watch Leinster seconds turn up or, worst still, Zebre and co.

Why is that so hard to understand?

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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:13 am

BamBam wrote:
The Oracle wrote:

I don't think anyone has said that you're not entitle to hold those views, have they?
I assumed the below was aimed at me questioning why certain Welsh fans want to piggy back on English success
PhilBB wrote:I'm really unsure as to why some seem to struggle with the fact that many Welsh rugby fans would prefer to drive to Bath, in under two hours, to watch their team play, rather than watch Leinster seconds turn up or, worst still, Zebre and co.

Why is that so hard to understand?

That's nothing to do with "success" and everything to do with geography, ffs.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:15 am

Sorry Phil change the you to the suggestion was that euro comps weren't required. Your answer is to a different question.

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Post by BamBam on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:18 am

PhilBB wrote:
BamBam wrote:
The Oracle wrote:

I don't think anyone has said that you're not entitle to hold those views, have they?
I assumed the below was aimed at me questioning why certain Welsh fans want to piggy back on English success
PhilBB wrote:I'm really unsure as to why some seem to struggle with the fact that many Welsh rugby fans would prefer to drive to Bath, in under two hours, to watch their team play, rather than watch Leinster seconds turn up or, worst still, Zebre and co.

Why is that so hard to understand?

That's nothing to do with "success" and everything to do with geography, ffs.

Geographically, Wales is a country. Surely they can manage on their own, or do they need to piggy back off England for everything? Bring absolutely nothing to the party but want a share of the spoils, what a great mentality

Apparently Welsh fans can't even pay £10 a month for TV coverage, what possible value would we gain

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:18 am

PhilBB wrote:

That's nothing to do with "success" and everything to do with geography, ffs.

What are the chances of getting anything PRL / CVC related on board, as far as Welsh domestic rugby goes Phil? You know more than I.

We know the Pro14 is ruining the 4 pro teams at present. But would there be Union reluctance given the stake of WRU in Celtic rugby etc?

Also, the "Celtic accord" is not a phrase that's heard much these days. Is that still in operation? And if so, how long for?

Ta.

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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:22 am

BamBam wrote:

Geographically, Wales is a country. Surely they can manage on their own, or do they need to piggy back off England for everything? Bring absolutely nothing to the party but want a share of the spoils, what a great mentality

Apparently Welsh fans can't even pay £10 a month for TV coverage, what possible value would we gain

I don't think that anybody has suggested "bringing nothing to the party" so that's a wonderful piece of ignorant projection from you.

Plus, of course, there's no evidence to suggest that slur about £10.

I appreciate that you're trying to be funny, of course, but I'm just pointing out your failure to achieve your target.
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Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:25 am

PhilBB wrote:

Plus, of course, there's no evidence to suggest that slur about £10.


Such is the ignorance from Bam Bam, that the £10 quote is actually disproved by Short's Premier Sportssubscription comments last night.

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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:25 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:

That's nothing to do with "success" and everything to do with geography, ffs.

What are the chances of getting anything PRL / CVC related on board, as far as Welsh domestic rugby goes Phil? You know more than I.

We know the Pro14 is ruining the 4 pro teams at present. But would there be Union reluctance given the stake of WRU in Celtic rugby etc?

Also, the "Celtic accord" is not a phrase that's heard much these days. Is that still in  operation? And if so, how long for?

Ta.

Chances of a PRL deal? Next to zero
Changes of the PrO'14 doing a similar deal with a company like CVC? KPMG offered a value on it last year that was so paltry that I'd give that another "next to zero" chance
I think some at the Union would prefer a two team solution within the PrO'14 than a four team solution outside of it, were those the two options. Those favouring that line are those who worked under Roger, of course. So his poison still lingers.
I think that the Celtic Accord was replaced by some kind of offering to include the Italians, although I'm told the financing of that deal is a little complicated at the moment.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:26 am

I assume there's no answer to Marty's question then?

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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:26 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:

Plus, of course, there's no evidence to suggest that slur about £10.


Such is the ignorance from Bam Bam, that the £10 quote is actually disproved by Short's Premier Sports subscription comments last night.

Well, yeah, but let's give him / her the benefit of the doubt here.
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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:26 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I assume there's no answer to Marty's question then?

You'd get more chance of an answer if you could use the quote button, so we all know who you've aimed your question at.
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Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:27 am

PhilBB wrote:

Chances of a PRL deal? Next to zero
Changes of the PrO'14 doing a similar deal with a company like CVC? KPMG offered a value on it last year that was so paltry that I'd give that another "next to zero" chance
I think some at the Union would prefer a two team solution within the PrO'14 than a four team solution outside of it, were those the two options. Those favouring that line are those who worked under Roger, of course. So his poison still lingers.
I think that the Celtic Accord was replaced by some kind of offering to include the Italians, although I'm told the financing of that deal is a little complicated at the moment.

Thanks. Depressing, then.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:28 am

There is no quote function on the mobile version of this site Phil. But Marty directed it to rugbyfan. You have also tried to answer it but have ignored what it was asking so either of you really.

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Post by BamBam on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:28 am

Oh I must have been misreading the many months of debate on here about how Premier Sports would kill rugby in Wales and it was too much to pay

Have a scroll through LordDowlais posting history, I'm sure its still there

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Post by munkian on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:28 am

BamBam wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
BamBam wrote:
The Oracle wrote:

I don't think anyone has said that you're not entitle to hold those views, have they?
I assumed the below was aimed at me questioning why certain Welsh fans want to piggy back on English success
PhilBB wrote:I'm really unsure as to why some seem to struggle with the fact that many Welsh rugby fans would prefer to drive to Bath, in under two hours, to watch their team play, rather than watch Leinster seconds turn up or, worst still, Zebre and co.

Why is that so hard to understand?

That's nothing to do with "success" and everything to do with geography, ffs.

Geographically, Wales is a country. Surely they can manage on their own, or do they need to piggy back off England for everything? Bring absolutely nothing to the party but want a share of the spoils, what a great mentality

Apparently Welsh fans can't even pay £10 a month for TV coverage, what possible value would we gain

Completely naive and insulting post that shows a complete lack of knowledge of history.

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Post by BamBam on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:29 am

PhilBB wrote:
I don't think that anybody has suggested "bringing nothing to the party" so that's a wonderful piece of ignorant projection from you.

Go on then, what do the regions / Welsh fans bring to the table to entice the PRL or English fans?

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:30 am

BamBam wrote:Oh I must have been misreading the many months of debate on here about how Premier Sports would kill rugby in Wales and it was too much to pay

Have a scroll through LordDowlais posting history, I'm sure its still there

So 1 poster said that? When countless others said pay per view tv was good for rugby union?

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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:30 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:There is no quote function on the mobile version of this site Phil. But Marty directed it to rugbyfan. You have also tried to answer it but have ignored what it was asking so either of you really.

So why don't you write the poster's name when you ask the question?

And I did answer the question, so ignored nothing. My view is that the European Cup will go to a knockout set up in the not too distant future, simply because of calendar time. How the hell is that "ignored what it was asking"?
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Post by Irish Londoner on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:32 am

I get that Welsh fans would drive to watch Bath its only over the bridge, would they drive to Newcastle, Sale, the midlands or London in numbers to make it worthwhile for the English clubs and equally would the English fans drive in numbers to Wales?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:33 am

You answered a different question. It was based on replacing 2 competitions as there would be no euro comp. It also asked what kind of set up would generate the required money and you answered it would only need 10 mil which is an answer I grant you but not one marty asked.
Hey it's ok not to answer but you seemed interested in it.

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Post by BamBam on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:36 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
BamBam wrote:Oh I must have been misreading the many months of debate on here about how Premier Sports would kill rugby in Wales and it was too much to pay

Have a scroll through LordDowlais posting history, I'm sure its still there

So 1 poster said that? When countless others said pay per view tv was good for rugby union?

So Dowlais doesn't speak for the whole of Wales? Someone should let him know, he was at it again earlier this morning

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Post by The Oracle on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:39 am

BamBam wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
BamBam wrote:
The Oracle wrote:

I don't think anyone has said that you're not entitle to hold those views, have they?
I assumed the below was aimed at me questioning why certain Welsh fans want to piggy back on English success
PhilBB wrote:I'm really unsure as to why some seem to struggle with the fact that many Welsh rugby fans would prefer to drive to Bath, in under two hours, to watch their team play, rather than watch Leinster seconds turn up or, worst still, Zebre and co.

Why is that so hard to understand?

That's nothing to do with "success" and everything to do with geography, ffs.

Geographically, Wales is a country. Surely they can manage on their own, or do they need to piggy back off England for everything? Bring absolutely nothing to the party but want a share of the spoils, what a great mentality

Apparently Welsh fans can't even pay £10 a month for TV coverage, what possible value would we gain


Well, if you will believe everything that Lord Dowlais writes. Personally, I think he just makes things up.
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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:39 am

BamBam wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
I don't think that anybody has suggested "bringing nothing to the party" so that's a wonderful piece of ignorant projection from you.

Go on then, what do the regions / Welsh fans bring to the table to entice the PRL or English fans?

No deal has been negotiated, so there's nothing on the table to offer. We don't know the views of BT Sport on this. We don't know if the WRU would pay to join such a league, we don't know about supplementary broadcast deals.

We know nothing of any detail. Because nothing exists.

One thing is clear, however: no deal would happen if one party brought "nothing to the party"
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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:40 am

BamBam wrote:Oh I must have been misreading the many months of debate on here about how Premier Sports would kill rugby in Wales and it was too much to pay

Have a scroll through LordDowlais posting history, I'm sure its still there

Ok, my mistake.

Only a deliberate troll would quote Dowlais as a source for accuracy.
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Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:40 am

BamBam wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
BamBam wrote:Oh I must have been misreading the many months of debate on here about how Premier Sports would kill rugby in Wales and it was too much to pay

Have a scroll through LordDowlais posting history, I'm sure its still there

So 1 poster said that? When countless others said pay per view tv was good for rugby union?

So Dowlais doesn't speak for the whole of Wales? Someone should let him know, he was at it again earlier this morning

A lame attempt to hide your ignorance / prejudice.

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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:41 am

Irish Londoner wrote:I get that Welsh fans would drive to watch Bath its only over the bridge, would they drive to Newcastle, Sale, the midlands or London in numbers to make it worthwhile for the English clubs and equally would the English fans drive in numbers to Wales?

Mate, it's not far to London or Leicester, you know. Our noses won't start bleeding.

I'm also pretty confident that English folk would turn up in greater numbers than Scottish, Irish, Italian and SA folk do.

Call me an optimist......
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Post by LordDowlais on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:42 am

Still obsessed with me BamBam ?

Nice to know.

Yes the Premier sports subscriptions are up, but they were starting at ZERO, so if one person purchased it it would be up.

But there you go. Rolling Eyes

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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:42 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:You answered a different question. It was based on replacing 2 competitions as there would be no euro comp. It also asked what kind of set up would generate the required money and you answered it would only need 10 mil which is an answer I grant you but not one marty asked.
Hey it's ok not to answer but you seemed interested in it.

Ok, here's a new rule - if you can't be arsed to write a poster's name in your post, I can't be arsed to work out who you are addressing or why you can't understand the replies written to you.
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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:43 am

LordDowlais wrote:Still obsessed with me BamBam ?

Nice to know.

Yes the Premier sports subscriptions are up, but they were starting at ZERO, so if one person purchased it it would be up.

But there you go. Rolling Eyes

It's not UP, you fool.

They have hit their target.
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Post by marty2086 on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:43 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I assume there's no answer to Marty's question then?

It seems not, some of our Welsh posters like to talk in general terms but hone in on the detail and they tend not to like to get into things

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Post by LordDowlais on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:43 am

BamBam doesn't realise that you need more than just a car to watch away games in the Pro14. Rolling Eyes

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Post by PhilBB on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:44 am

marty2086 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I assume there's no answer to Marty's question then?

It seems not, some of our Welsh posters like to talk in general terms but hone in on the detail and they tend not to like to get into things

Writes the man whose knowledge of "detail" within the Irish rugby system didn't extend to who held the contracts of the players.......

Another irony meter has exploded.
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