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The Future for the PRO14 - Part 8 - who’s next?

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Post by Pot Hale Thu 30 Aug 2018, 10:16 am

First topic message reminder :

South African media reports emerging around comments made at PRO14 launch by SA Rugby president Mark Alexander that South African players will be better off playing in the northern hemisphere.

Alexander hinted South African rugby could be heading north on a more permanent basis in the near future.

The Cheetahs and Kings joined the Pro14 last year and there is a strong possibility that two more local teams will be included in the competition next season.

‘It’s a long-term investment. We have options now and in future. At some point in time, in future, if we don’t want to stay in the south [in Super Rugby], we can move north,’ said Alexander.

He added that the involvement of local players and coaches in Europe is beneficial for South African rugby.

‘The Pro14 is a good competition for the players and coaches who’re playing against tier-one nations each weekend. When we become a full Pro14 member next season, we’ll be the only nation who plays in the north and the south, and the major benefit of playing in the northern hemisphere is the players are better off.

‘With the structure of the Pro14 competition the way it is, it’s easier for travelling, with distances between places less than in the south, and the time zones are also better. When you consider player welfare and what’s best for them, then the north is better.’

The rumors are that it will be the Griquas and Pumas who will be proposed by SARU next season as their two new teams.  How well that will be received by the other participating unions remains to be seen given the poor quality of the Kings thus far.    SARU plans to cut the number of professional players in their system from approx 900 to 400 odd using a draft system and to spread the talent across the 8 professional teams.


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Post by Guest Tue 22 Jan 2019, 9:57 am

Cyril wrote:Meanwhile greedy unions arrange internationals outside of international windows and increase the number of sides in annual tournaments in order to feather their nest and place an additional burden on top-level players. It’s not all one way.


I know, you'd think England would be happy with the enormous income that they already have. But to squeeze another AI in is just greedy Smile

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Post by Guest Tue 22 Jan 2019, 10:01 am

What's even more worrying is the 4 games we're each playing in the lead up to the world cup. That's going to be a lot of international rugby played this year. While it might be replacing the traditional summer tours I feel it will be perhaps a bit more intense, and teams never usually play 4 games on a summer tour as far as I can remember.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 22 Jan 2019, 12:07 pm

The Oracle wrote:What's even more worrying is the 4 games we're each playing in the lead up to the world cup.  

Crap idea.  Have always hated this pattern.  

No need for high intensity 'warm up' WC games against 6N rivals.  We're hot enough against each other during 6N.... it's always just looking for injury trouble just when you don't need it.  

If the odds are players can always pick up injuries in any game, so be it - but it's easier to do in high octane games against familiar rivals pre-WC.  And I say, if your central players are going to get injured, it's best to get those injuries AT a world cup so that at least they might get one or two pool games completed before the injuries.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 22 Jan 2019, 12:09 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:
Cyril wrote:Meanwhile greedy unions arrange internationals outside of international windows and increase the number of sides in annual tournaments in order to feather their nest and place an additional burden on top-level players. It’s not all one way.

Isn't that partially because the unions need to raise revenue to subsidise the club game?

OUCH! laughing

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 22 Jan 2019, 1:21 pm

I do not know why people are getting so hung up on union control, and non union control, our way is right, your way is wrong nonsense.

The thing is neither of them are wrong, nobody is doing anything wrong within their systems.

The only time it is wrong, is when you have both systems in the same competition. There is too much at stake, and it causes too much controversy.

If you want a system where everything is run by one entity/employer, then fine. Everybody is then in the same boat, everyone is the same. Everybody knows the refs, the players, the coaches and everything else are all answerable to the one. Everybody knows where they are.

If you want a system, where the unions control some aspects, but the teams taking part in the competition are independent, then fine, everyone taking part knows where they are.

For me, you cannot have both, it's either one or the other. This is one of the major stumbling blocks in the Pro14.

Now I am not saying one system is right, and the other is wrong. They are both right, they all suit the systems using them. But something everybody needs to agree on, is they cannot be used together.

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Post by SecretFly Tue 22 Jan 2019, 1:30 pm

So either Union controlled teams need to exit Pro14 or the Private Teams/semi-Private Teams need to exit the Pro14?

If that IS the only 'moral' solution then again, that only solution suggests that one rugby 'system' must sacrifice itself (earning potential, competitiveness) and eject itself from a pan-National Conference Competition and the other 'system' can carry on and reap the rewards of being in such a pan-National competition?

So in practice, if not in theory - ONE system is considered wrong, and the other is considered right for a pan-National competition such as the Pro14.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Tue 22 Jan 2019, 2:03 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I do not know why people are getting so hung up on union control, and non union control, our way is right, your way is wrong nonsense.

The thing is neither of them are wrong, nobody is doing anything wrong within their systems.

The only time it is wrong, is when you have both systems in the same competition. There is too much at stake, and it causes too much controversy.

If you want a system where everything is run by one entity/employer, then fine. Everybody is then in the same boat, everyone is the same. Everybody knows the refs, the players, the coaches and everything else are all answerable to the one. Everybody knows where they are.

If you want a system, where the unions control some aspects, but the teams taking part in the competition are independent, then fine, everyone taking part knows where they are.

For me, you cannot have both, it's either one or the other. This is one of the major stumbling blocks in the Pro14.

Now I am not saying one system is right, and the other is wrong. They are both right, they all suit the systems using them. But something everybody needs to agree on, is they cannot be used together.

Pretty much spot on that. Incompatible.

It's rearing it's head even more these days because the gap in structure is widening and people are beginning to notice the different priorities of club owners / coaches more than ever.


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Post by LordDowlais Tue 22 Jan 2019, 2:43 pm

SecretFly wrote:So either Union controlled teams need to exit Pro14 or the Private Teams/semi-Private Teams need to exit the Pro14?

If that IS the only 'moral' solution then again, that only solution suggests that one rugby 'system' must sacrifice itself (earning potential, competitiveness) and eject itself from a pan-National Conference Competition and the other 'system' can carry on and reap the rewards of being in such a pan-National competition?

So in practice, if not in theory - ONE system is considered wrong, and the other is considered right for a pan-National competition such as the Pro14.

No, again, you would purposely not see the point to continue this two bald men fighting over a comb argument. There is no wrong or right. There is only right, but they do not go together.

It's like oil and water, they both serve their own purposes, but they do not mix.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 22 Jan 2019, 2:50 pm

So same issues for the euro comps then.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 22 Jan 2019, 3:04 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So same issues for the euro comps then.

yes, except, the Irish provinces do not get the IRFU employed refs in Europe, so at least that is something. But on the whole, yes.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 22 Jan 2019, 3:22 pm

So we should all be worried or annoyed about this but so far predominantly it's just the Welsh.im sure we'll catch up eventually.

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Post by Guest Tue 22 Jan 2019, 3:29 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So we should all be worried or annoyed about this but so far predominantly it's just the Welsh.im sure we'll catch up eventually.


No, it's just a handful of whingers from Wales on this forum. I care not a jot whether Gloucester are funded privately while Connacht are funded by the union; or whether Clermont are private while Southern Kings might not be.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 22 Jan 2019, 3:37 pm

It's not just a handful of whingers on this forum though is it ?

You see this is very typical of you. You do not think there is a world outside your social structure. You cannot grasp the reality of things that go on outside of your own circle.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 22 Jan 2019, 3:39 pm

Yeah i get that Oracle. Meant it's predominantly Welsh people you hear on here. Don't the majority really care.

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Post by Brendan Tue 22 Jan 2019, 3:43 pm

LordDowlais wrote:I do not know why people are getting so hung up on union control, and non union control, our way is right, your way is wrong nonsense.

The thing is neither of them are wrong, nobody is doing anything wrong within their systems.

The only time it is wrong, is when you have both systems in the same competition. There is too much at stake, and it causes too much controversy.

If you want a system where everything is run by one entity/employer, then fine. Everybody is then in the same boat, everyone is the same. Everybody knows the refs, the players, the coaches and everything else are all answerable to the one. Everybody knows where they are.

If you want a system, where the unions control some aspects, but the teams taking part in the competition are independent, then fine, everyone taking part knows where they are.

For me, you cannot have both, it's either one or the other. This is one of the major stumbling blocks in the Pro14.

Now I am not saying one system is right, and the other is wrong. They are both right, they all suit the systems using them. But something everybody needs to agree on, is they cannot be used together.

I know what you mean.  Back when Zebre and Dragons were not owned by the union it made it so much better.  Since the Unions took them over it just doesn't sit well with me.  It's not like they are more stable and doing better. Whistle

In my view it doesn't matter who owns it as long as they can run the club for the next five years at a sustainable level.  Luckily the Unions were able to step in when the private backers wanted out.  Talk coming out from some fans (but not the people that matter) about going to two Regions (though unlikely as the WRU will step in) isn't great.  Surely the dream situation for the WRU is for the owners of the other Regions to say they want out and the WRU step in to save the Regions and take a majority share.  I don't mind if the Regions are rubbish for 3-4 years as long as they get better long term. Having 2 teams hoping for Playoffs and 2 teams in the long project would be fine for me.

The league currently has the following tiers

World Class
Leinster

Challengers
Munster
Glasgow
Edinburgh
Ulster
Scarlets - injuries doing them in

Hoping for Playoffs
Connacht
Ospreys
Blues
Treviso
Cheetahs

The long project
Zebre
Dragons
Kings

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Post by the-goon Tue 22 Jan 2019, 3:49 pm

Yeah, kick out the mean Irish teams, they win too often...

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Post by Guest Tue 22 Jan 2019, 4:11 pm

LordDowlais wrote:It's not just a handful of whingers on this forum though is it ?

You see this is very typical of you. You do not think there is a world outside your social structure. You cannot grasp the reality of things that go on outside of your own circle.


I didn't see anyone complaining about the structures and the ownership models when Scarlets were winning the league, or when the Ospreys were winning it (apart from you and Phil on here - two peas in a pod if ever I saw it). So for me the ownership model is not the issue. It's always when our teams start to lose that we get some moaning that it's not fair. Let's just say for argument sake (because there is lots of disagreement about this on here)...... But let's just say that there is a difference in funding and budget for playing squads. Let's just say that the regions, for arguments sake, have £5m less to spend on their squad than the other top teams in Europe. Now, if the WRU or a private investor was to make up that short fall and as a result our regions were then to become more competitive and to start to win more and get much further in the Euro comps, I bet you a million pounds there'd be less whingeing about how unfair the league is, or how we shouldn't be mixing models. People wouldn't give two hoots about the models if we were winning. The only time it's an issues is when we're losing and then posters sulk and try to take their ball home and not play.

Bottom line is we need more funds; if we matched the other big spenders we'd probably have better coaching, better players, more squad depth and quality, and would probably win more, and that in turn would leave much less for people to complain about so the mixed-model format of the league would not even be a discussion point. Just my opinion.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 22 Jan 2019, 4:35 pm

It's not just about how the teams are funded though is it ? It's the whole structure. It's everything.

Yes, you are correct about the funding issue, but that is not the be all and end all. There are multiple conflicts in the league, and the only thing that will solve it, is if everybody went down the same system.

Please do not go down the childish road of making out that myself and Phil are the same, we are not, we could not be more different, and I will ask you what I always ask you, to just be honest, and take your head out of the sand.

You like the Pro14, good for you, I used to be an avid follower of it, I used to watch all our regions, I payed a lot of money doing so, but myself, along with many others, are getting disillusioned with how pro rugby is being run in Wales, and more importantly, how we seem to bend over and except our lot with regards to the Pro14.

I still follow the regions, but not as passionately as I used to, I get far more enjoyment out of watching my town now, I have also met many fans who are like myself whilst doing this from all over Wales.


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Post by Guest Tue 22 Jan 2019, 4:49 pm

England don't want us or need us. There would be no point joining the French, and they wouldn't want us or need us either. It would be rubbish to have a league made up of just the 4 welsh regions, and we can't afford a competitive fully pro Welsh league of our own with 10-12 clubs. So the only option is the Pro14. It's a no-brainer for me. And it's a good option, IMO.

Even if we joined the English league and therefore had the same 'private ownership' model, we'd end up getting smashed as the budgets would still be different and then we'd be moaning about how unfair it is.

And stop preaching to me about 'being honest'. This is me being honest. Unless we want to just play in a league on our own with 4 regions, or try to fund 10-12 full pro teams, the Pro14 is myhonest answer. Whether that means the WRU takes full ownership and funds them fully a la Ireland, or whether we have to really push on with private ownership and get millions of £ of private investment pumped in each year, or a combination of both - I do not care. But investment is what we need to be able to compete. But at least the WRU and the regions sound like they are all pulling in the same direction after 15 years of war.

I'd love to hear your alternative solution that is not 'head in the sand' (your favourite cliche).


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Post by carpet baboon Tue 22 Jan 2019, 4:56 pm

"how you bend over in regards the pro14"
So I will ask you what I asked Phill (many many times and still no answer) what decisions exactly have the pro14 forced you to accept?

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Post by carpet baboon Tue 22 Jan 2019, 4:57 pm

And let's remember one of the last decisions made by the pro14(12 at the time) was on qualification for the champions cup.
How was it the Irish who wanted this or the Welsh?

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 22 Jan 2019, 5:02 pm

You are as always avoiding the being honest question with a totally different answer, I want you to be honest about it not being just one or two whingers on here, and to be honest about the state of the Pro14 in Wales.

The rest of it I agree with you, the Pro14 is the only option, and it's a good one. But is it the best option ? Not as it stands, there are far too many conflicts, for me we either take on their model (union run Scotts and Irish), or they take on our model.

You do have your head in the sand though, you think everything is fine and dandy. It isn't, and the sooner you wake up to that fact the better.

The decision to take the Pro14 away from free to air TV in my opinion has been a disaster, it has alienated a lot of people from an already struggling fan base, and that is just for starters.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 22 Jan 2019, 5:03 pm

If it's the only option then yes by default it is the best option.

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Post by Guest Tue 22 Jan 2019, 5:59 pm

LordDowlais wrote:You are as always avoiding the being honest question with a totally different answer, I want you to be honest about it not being just one or two whingers on here, and to be honest about the state of the Pro14 in Wales.

The rest of it I agree with you, the Pro14 is the only option, and it's a good one. But is it the best option ? Not as it stands, there are far too many conflicts, for me we either take on their model (union run Scotts and Irish), or they take on our model.

You do have your head in the sand though, you think everything is fine and dandy. It isn't, and the sooner you wake up to that fact the better.

The decision to take the Pro14 away from free to air TV in my opinion has been a disaster, it has alienated a lot of people from an already struggling fan base, and that is just for starters.

I never once said he situation was fine, you complete cretin. I said we’re under funded and can’t compete. How is that saying everything is fine?! You just make it up.

It’s the regions that are sh*t though, not the league. You’re exhibiting the rather unfortunate welsh trait of blaming others for everything that goes wrong. ‘Our regions are rubbish because of the Pro14’, ‘they’re rubbish because of the irish’. It’s pathetic and embarrassing. It’s like the people blaming all of Wales’ problems on Westminster without looking at the cretins in charge at the assembly. Or still blaming Thatcher for everything (heard someone doing that yesterday). Or the people who still trot out ‘I can’t work because they closed the mines’ - like 40 years ago. Man up.

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Post by Brendan Tue 22 Jan 2019, 6:08 pm

If the Pro14 is the best option and it is either Private or Union Control and there are 4 Irish, 2 Scots, a Welsh and Italian team all Union controlled and there is only 3 Welsh and one Italian (Who seems to manage fine) are private owned.  Not sure if the Union has control of the SA teams.

So what you are saying LD is that you want the WRU to take control right away. Because after all the majority are Union controlled, who seem to be doing grand.

If the private investors haven't put the structures in place over the last 15 years why would they start now

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Post by BamBam Tue 22 Jan 2019, 6:22 pm

Oracle clap clap

On a similar vein, I saw a post on social media from a Welshman slating the EU, with many of his countrymen fully advocating no deal..not realising that without the funding from the EU, you'll be at the mercy of the same old Westminster bunch

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 22 Jan 2019, 6:47 pm

The Oracle wrote:I never once said he situation was fine, you complete cretin.

Classy, very V2 Gwent mafia of you. Rolling Eyes

The Oracle wrote:It’s the regions that are sh*t though, not the league. You’re exhibiting the rather unfortunate welsh trait of blaming others for everything that goes wrong. ‘Our regions are rubbish because of the Pro14’, ‘they’re rubbish because of the irish’.

Not once have I claimed this, not once have I said the league is anything, nor have I blamed the Irish. How dare yo accuse me of any trait, without any ounce of evidence to show otherwise, I will not hold my breath for an apology.

The Oracle wrote:It’s like the people blaming all of Wales’ problems on Westminster without looking at the cretins in charge at the assembly. Or still blaming Thatcher for everything (heard someone doing that yesterday). Or the people who still trot out ‘I can’t work because they closed the mines’ - like 40 years ago. Man up.

How dare you ? This really shows you for the person you are, again you are showing yourself up.

You have really let yourself down with these comments.

There are a lot of hard working people in Wales, I am very offended by this comment, I have worked extremely hard to build a very successful business, all be it with some tough and bumpy times, that employs a lot of people who in turn work very hard. Who are you to tell anyone to man up ?

Seriously, who do you think you are ?


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Post by LordDowlais Tue 22 Jan 2019, 6:51 pm

Brendan wrote:So what you are saying LD is that you want the WRU to take control right away. Because after all the majority are Union controlled, who seem to be doing grand.

Either that, or everyone else changes to private ownership.

Brendan wrote:If the private investors haven't put the structures in place over the last 15 years why would they start now

Nail on the head there. The thing is, the regions answer to nobody but themselves, well except for Dragons.

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Post by BamBam Tue 22 Jan 2019, 7:00 pm

Dowlais, he's having a go at people who blame everyone else for their - unless you're guilty of this why have you thrown your toys out of the pram?

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Post by Guest Tue 22 Jan 2019, 7:00 pm

I just see you constantly crying about Irish refs this, bias that, unfair this and that. I’m just embarrassed for you. But you’re right though, LD. I’ve stooped to your level. You bring out the worst in me. Apologies to the other posters on this thread for bringing it down to LD levels.


Still waiting for your big suggestion about ‘everyone going down the same system’. How are we (Wales) gonna do that?

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Post by Guest Tue 22 Jan 2019, 7:01 pm

BamBam wrote:Dowlais, he's having a go at people who blame everyone else for their - unless you're guilty of this why have you thrown your toys out of the pram?

OK

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 22 Jan 2019, 7:14 pm

The Oracle wrote:
BamBam wrote:Dowlais, he's having a go at people who blame everyone else for their - unless you're guilty of this why have you thrown your toys out of the pram?

OK

You generalised the whole of Wales by the actions of a few, and threw some insults in to boot. I have BamBam on ignore, but I can see by the way you've quoted him you have clung to his comment for support, the thing is BamBam will always go against me, so that does not wash.

You have let yourself down. That is the last I will say on the matter.



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Post by Guest Tue 22 Jan 2019, 7:15 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
BamBam wrote:Dowlais, he's having a go at people who blame everyone else for their - unless you're guilty of this why have you thrown your toys out of the pram?

OK

You generalised the whole of Wales by the actions of a few, and threw some insults in to boot. I have BamBam on ignore, but I can see by the way you've quoted him you have clung to his comment for support, the thing is BamBam will always go against me, so that does not wash.

You have let yourself down. That is the last I will say on the matter.



Oh please, let it be so!

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Post by Guest Tue 22 Jan 2019, 7:16 pm

Still waiting for the master plan too.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 22 Jan 2019, 7:18 pm

The Oracle wrote:I just see you constantly crying about Irish refs this, bias that, unfair this and that. I’m just embarrassed for you. But you’re right though, LD. I’ve stooped to your level. You bring out the worst in me. Apologies to the other posters on this thread for bringing it down to LD levels.


Still waiting for your big suggestion about ‘everyone going down the same system’. How are we (Wales) gonna do that?

The thing is, it is unfair, teams like Connacht would never compete without union funding. Munster would not be where they are either.

You ask how Wales are going to do that ? Well they are a quarter of the way there now, because your beloved team are union owned, a union who you used to derive under your last pseudonym.

Also, all this talk about funding the Welsh regions, who do you think should be funding them, and why ?

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Post by carpet baboon Tue 22 Jan 2019, 7:32 pm

Sarries would be bust without private backing. What's your point?

Also what have the Welsh been forced to accept from the pro14?

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Post by Guest Tue 22 Jan 2019, 7:43 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:I just see you constantly crying about Irish refs this, bias that, unfair this and that. I’m just embarrassed for you. But you’re right though, LD. I’ve stooped to your level. You bring out the worst in me. Apologies to the other posters on this thread for bringing it down to LD levels.


Still waiting for your big suggestion about ‘everyone going down the same system’. How are we (Wales) gonna do that?

The thing is, it is unfair, teams like Connacht would never compete without union funding. Munster would not be where they are either.

You ask how Wales are going to do that ? Well they are a quarter of the way there now, because your beloved team are union owned, a union who you used to derive under your last pseudonym.

Also, all this talk about funding the Welsh regions, who do you think should be funding them, and why ?

Firstly, the bit I’ve highlighted makes no sense in English. A union I used to derive??? Sorry you’ve lost me. Also, my old name on here before I deleted my account was ‘Griff’. What’s that got to do with the WRU?

The 2nd question - well that’s the million dollar question, isn’t it? The private owners either can’t or won’t fund them to a greater extent than they currently are. The WRU, I feel, would not be in a position to buy the 4 regions (or 3.5) outright along with the stadia and everything that goes with it. I think that would be too much of a risk for them.  So the answer for Wales, in my opinion, is a more joined up approach with the union stumping up a lot more cash for the pro game than they currently do. When you look at the money the regions ‘get’ from  the WRU, if you then take away the money that is theirs anyway (TV money, competition money, etc. that is just routed to the regions through the WRU) they don’t actually ‘fund’ the pro game a huge amount. Even their dual contracts only have a few people actually left on them. So I think we need our own model - one that combines the private ownership we’ve got with the current success and relative wealth of the union - and they both joint fund it. Because on their own I don’t think they can do it to the extent that we could match others. We perhaps could if we went down the Scottish 2 team model but I think that for player development we need 4 sides. I think we could go for the 2+2 system of two highly funded sides and 2 development sides, aka all your eggs in 2 baskets, but I don’t think it would be good having stars warming the bench at some regions while others struggle, and I don’t think the tournament organisers, sponsors or partner clubs/provinces would take too kindly to us just chucking in a few kids teams either. Similarly, I would be willing to ‘take one for the team’ and see the Dragons become a development region for the greater good of the game but I don’t know if it would have the desired effect and wouldn’t go down well with the league. Kids getting hammered every week (worse than the Dragons currently, probably) won’t really develop the players IMO. Playing with stars and seasoned pros will though. So my preferred option is for the regions AND the WRU to joint fund the regions, with the WRU putting more in to the pro game, and hopefully we can close the gap. As Scarlets showed last season with good coaching and squad depth we can be fairly close to the big guns. Just need a bit more of that across the board too. I think the WRU can afford that (to fund), but I can understand why they’d be tempted to go for a safer route (financially) and just fund some regions more and others less. We’ll have to wait and see what comes out of the new RSA/PRA, or whatever they’re calling it.


Last edited by The Oracle on Tue 22 Jan 2019, 7:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Pot Hale Tue 22 Jan 2019, 7:49 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:I just see you constantly crying about Irish refs this, bias that, unfair this and that. I’m just embarrassed for you. But you’re right though, LD. I’ve stooped to your level. You bring out the worst in me. Apologies to the other posters on this thread for bringing it down to LD levels.


Still waiting for your big suggestion about ‘everyone going down the same system’. How are we (Wales) gonna do that?

The thing is, it is unfair, teams like Connacht would never compete without union funding. Munster would not be where they are either.

You ask how Wales are going to do that ? Well they are a quarter of the way there now, because your beloved team are union owned, a union who you used to derive under your last pseudonym.

Also, all this talk about funding the Welsh regions, who do you think should be funding them, and why ?

Not sure why you select Connacht, LD, but the reality is that none of the teams in the PRO14 would be able to compete without union funding.

The privately-owned regions in Wales are facing the inevitable - increased funding and likely majority ownership by the WRU.    The WRU has a greater turnover than the IRFU and could put more funding into the regions if they had a greater say on what happens.   Whether the number of regions reduces from four to 3 or 2 remains to be seen.  Chasing a wild dream that there could be some alignment in an Anglo-Welsh comp is a distraction - PRL have enough on their own plates.  

Get that done and the issues you have highlighted disappear.  Refs are a minor issue - the PRO14 plans to employ them - if they get the next tranche of funding that’s what will happen.

Three unions own the PRO14 comp currently. Next year that will likely increase to include SARU and FIR as well - it will be even more union-owned and controlled. The Welsh region owners are the odd ones out in that scenario.
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Post by Guest Tue 22 Jan 2019, 8:04 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:I just see you constantly crying about Irish refs this, bias that, unfair this and that. I’m just embarrassed for you. But you’re right though, LD. I’ve stooped to your level. You bring out the worst in me. Apologies to the other posters on this thread for bringing it down to LD levels.


Still waiting for your big suggestion about ‘everyone going down the same system’. How are we (Wales) gonna do that?

The thing is, it is unfair, teams like Connacht would never compete without union funding. Munster would not be where they are either.

You ask how Wales are going to do that ? Well they are a quarter of the way there now, because your beloved team are union owned, a union who you used to derive under your last pseudonym.

Also, all this talk about funding the Welsh regions, who do you think should be funding them, and why ?

Not sure why you select Connacht, LD, but the reality is that none of the teams in the PRO14 would be able to compete without union funding.

The privately-owned regions in Wales are facing the inevitable - increased funding and likely majority ownership by the WRU.    The WRU has a greater turnover than the IRFU and could put more funding into the regions if they had a greater say on what happens.   Whether the number of regions reduces from four to 3 or 2 remains to be seen.  Chasing a wild dream that there could be some alignment in an Anglo-Welsh comp is a distraction - PRL have enough on their own plates.  

Get that done and the issues you have highlighted disappear.  Refs are a minor issue - the PRO14 plans to employ them - if they get the next tranche of funding that’s what will happen.      

This is a good point. For 15 years they’ve been at war with the union wanting more say and control but without putting in the money, so the regions have not been willing to play ball. Union meddling in private ownership, and all that. But the noises coming out of the WRU and regions since the new WRU chief replaced Roger the Dodger are really positive. They’re talking about working in partnership, about no one side being more knowledgeable than the other, about planning the way forward together. This really is a massive paradigm shift. I’m probably expecting too much from a union that has a history of ballsing things up but it does sound like they’re trying to figure this out together. And I don’t think it will matter at all if we’re in a league of union owned sides and we’re the weird ones with a quasi-union/private model, as long as we’re competitive and winning some stuff then no one will care about the model behind it. Hell, if we get really successful you never know the other union model countries might start looking for a bit of private ownership in order to keep up Wink

One other thing - I don’t get the impression that these arguments and fights that we see on here are replicated in real life (I mean, around the Pro14 table). I just can’t see the regional representatives accusing the Irish of bias and cheating and using their refs to do a stealth job of keeping us down at the bottom of the league. I only see that one these forums, Twitter, and perhaps ‘outside my social circle’ as LD alludes to. But I think it’s much more harmonious amongst the teams and board members of the Pro14. I’m sure they’re all sharing best practice and the Welsh are taking an active part in driving the league forward.

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Post by Pot Hale Tue 22 Jan 2019, 9:20 pm

The Oracle wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:I just see you constantly crying about Irish refs this, bias that, unfair this and that. I’m just embarrassed for you. But you’re right though, LD. I’ve stooped to your level. You bring out the worst in me. Apologies to the other posters on this thread for bringing it down to LD levels.


Still waiting for your big suggestion about ‘everyone going down the same system’. How are we (Wales) gonna do that?

The thing is, it is unfair, teams like Connacht would never compete without union funding. Munster would not be where they are either.

You ask how Wales are going to do that ? Well they are a quarter of the way there now, because your beloved team are union owned, a union who you used to derive under your last pseudonym.

Also, all this talk about funding the Welsh regions, who do you think should be funding them, and why ?

Not sure why you select Connacht, LD, but the reality is that none of the teams in the PRO14 would be able to compete without union funding.

The privately-owned regions in Wales are facing the inevitable - increased funding and likely majority ownership by the WRU.    The WRU has a greater turnover than the IRFU and could put more funding into the regions if they had a greater say on what happens.   Whether the number of regions reduces from four to 3 or 2 remains to be seen.  Chasing a wild dream that there could be some alignment in an Anglo-Welsh comp is a distraction - PRL have enough on their own plates.  

Get that done and the issues you have highlighted disappear.  Refs are a minor issue - the PRO14 plans to employ them - if they get the next tranche of funding that’s what will happen.      

This is a good point. For 15 years they’ve been at war with the union wanting more say and control but without putting in the money, so the regions have not been willing to play ball. Union meddling in private ownership, and all that. But the noises coming out of the WRU and regions since the new WRU chief replaced Roger the Dodger are really positive. They’re talking about working in partnership, about no one side being more knowledgeable than the other, about planning the way forward together. This really is a massive paradigm shift. I’m probably expecting too much from a union that has a history of ballsing things up but it does sound like they’re trying to figure this out together. And I don’t think it will matter at all if we’re in a league of union owned sides and we’re the weird ones with a quasi-union/private model, as long as we’re competitive and winning some stuff then no one will care about the model behind it. Hell, if we get really successful you never know the other union model countries might start looking for a bit of private ownership in order to keep up Wink

One other thing - I don’t get the impression that these arguments and fights that we see on here are replicated in real life (I mean, around the Pro14 table). I just can’t see the regional representatives accusing the Irish of bias and cheating and using their refs to do a stealth job of keeping us down at the bottom of the league. I only see that one these forums, Twitter, and perhaps ‘outside my social circle’ as LD alludes to. But I think it’s much more harmonious amongst the teams and board members of the Pro14. I’m sure they’re all sharing best practice and the Welsh are taking an active part in driving the league forward.

Fair comments, Oracle, although I think there’s a few more commentators/fans in other media who have similar views about malign Irish influence owning/running/affecting the PRO14, whether it’s refs, being based in Dublin, etc, etc.   Anyway - enough of that.

I’d agree with the partnership approach which is why I said union majority ownership.   The SRU have looked previously to find commercial partners and nothing came of it, but that may change in the future.  Equally, the IRFU did spend some time in looking at the current ownership structures of the provincial branches to see how they could be altered to allow for some private minority ownership - which is what they have done in New Zealand albeit not very successfully on occasion.    

It also depends somewhat on where the next development/expansion of the PRO14 goes linked to other developments happening in the game in the next 12-18 months including the new Super Rugby/SANZAAR agreement and number of teams they enter in that (likely four).  And the proposed changes likely to occur with the European comps with SARU knocking at the door and RFU/PRL wanting to reduce teams.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 23 Jan 2019, 7:52 am

So if it's unfair that connacht can compete at the top purely because of union funding surely the same is also true of any club etc competing purely due to a rich sugar daddy. Ie Saracens vs leicester.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 23 Jan 2019, 8:11 am

This place is pathetic, it really is. All of you would rather attack the poster instead of what is written.

Oracle is an embarrassment to himself on here with his comments and generalisations, yet he gets away scot free.

All I said was, there is nothing wrong with any system, yet they cannot work together, that is all.

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Post by TJ Wed 23 Jan 2019, 8:30 am

Is this whining still going on?  The welsh teams are not disadvantaged financially.  they have very similar budgets to the scots teams and all the irish bar Leinster.
The welsh teams need to look to themselves as to why they are failing - things like this deluded nonsense from Pivac " Scarlets not far away" from winning in europe despite having one win from 6.  Can you imagine Cockerill saying that?

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Post by carpet baboon Wed 23 Jan 2019, 9:08 am

LordDowlais wrote:This place is pathetic, it really is. All of you would rather attack the poster instead of what is written.

Oracle is an embarrassment to himself on here with his comments and generalisations, yet he gets away scot free.

All I said was, there is nothing wrong with any system, yet they cannot work together, that is all.

What decisions have the pro14 taken that have forced the Welsh to bend over as you put it?

Are you not going to answer? A bit like Phill that is, makes by a grand statement and refusing to explain it

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Post by carpet baboon Wed 23 Jan 2019, 9:13 am

LordDowlais wrote:This place is pathetic, it really is. All of you would rather attack the poster instead of what is written.

Oracle is an embarrassment to himself on here with his comments and generalisations, yet he gets away scot free.

All I said was, there is nothing wrong with any system, yet they cannot work together, that is all.

And that's not all you said. You claimed the pro14 forced the Welsh to accept decisions. And by extension your claiming that the pro14 is running against the Welsh, yet provided no proof

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Post by Guest Wed 23 Jan 2019, 9:50 am

LordDowlais wrote:This place is pathetic, it really is. All of you would rather attack the poster instead of what is written.

Oracle is an embarrassment to himself on here with his comments and generalisations, yet he gets away scot free.

All I said was, there is nothing wrong with any system, yet they cannot work together, that is all.


Yes they can.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 23 Jan 2019, 9:50 am

The Oracle wrote: you complete cretin. .

Did this poster get a ban for this? ^

Pathetic moderation and double standards on this forum.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 23 Jan 2019, 10:01 am

carpet baboon wrote:And that's not all you said. You claimed the pro14 forced the Welsh to accept decisions. And by extension your claiming that the pro14 is running against the Welsh, yet provided no proof

tell me where I have said this ?

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Post by SecretFly Wed 23 Jan 2019, 10:06 am



Swim for your lives! Run

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Post by marty2086 Wed 23 Jan 2019, 10:07 am

LordDowlais wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:And that's not all you said. You claimed the pro14 forced the Welsh to accept decisions. And by extension your claiming that the pro14 is running against the Welsh, yet provided no proof

tell me where I have said this ?

He is right cb, he said they except it not accept Rolling Eyes

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