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England - the winter tours thread

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Post by Gooseberry Tue 11 Dec 2018, 7:39 am

First topic message reminder :

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:No Jofra then

Turns out he doesn’t actually qualify until March - so couldn’t make the West Indies tour

...and Smiths being more guarded about him for the world cup than the press hype has been.

But he is eligible for the T20s on this tour, for which the squad hasnt been named yet if he pulls out of the BBL. Aside form that theres just the 5 match warm up series against Pakistan for him to be capped before the world cup.

Smith does seem to think Denly can make a case for inclusion in the world cup squad, so despite him not getting much cricket in sri lanka, struggling with the bat, and only being a replacement for Dawson in the ODI squad he must be doing something right.

Of the two though you'd think Archer had more potential to improve Englands first XI on home pitches.


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Post by VTR Sat 02 Feb 2019, 9:31 pm

Yes, pathetic indeed. It shows that you can't come straight from a winter break, play two pathetic warm up games and then expect good performances. England were totally undercooked for this and it shows with virtually the entire batting lineup out of form. Truly terrible stuff

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Post by JDizzle Sat 02 Feb 2019, 10:11 pm

VTR wrote:Yes, pathetic indeed. It shows that you can't come straight from a winter break, play two pathetic warm up games and then expect good performances. England were totally undercooked for this and it shows with virtually the entire batting lineup out of form. Truly terrible stuff

They weren’t playing against the 2001 Australians in their warm up games in Sri Lanka tbf, and they went pretty well there. Just think that is an easy cop out for them not having good enough batsmen!

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Post by shivfan Sat 02 Feb 2019, 10:45 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Some sad news - Alzarri Joseph’s mother passed away this morning
Good to see Alzarri getting two wickets in the final England innings.

Roach and Holder took four-fers to wrap up the series and take home the Wisden trophy!
Very Happy
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Post by alfie Sun 03 Feb 2019, 1:25 am

KP_fan wrote:In the overall analysis...Eng were about 15 runs short of par score in first inning.....and  conceded 100 runs too many to WI

A chase of 130 would have tested WI in the last inning

Surely they can't keep Curran in the side when they give him only 13 out of 131 overs......when Broad has to bowl 36 & Anderson 30 overs

Eng bowlers took 131 overs to get WI out once.....while WI bowlers bowled out Eng twice in a total of 100 overs
Eng's bowlers lost them the game more than batsmen

Sorry , KP _fan , but that is absolute nonsense.

As you say , you only ever watched a few highlights , and it shows. The "excuse " for the batsmen is that they were inserted on a tricky pitch on day one ...but even so they just didn't play well enough and were about forty or fifty runs under par. And the second innings speaks for itself.

The bowlers were definitely unlucky : let down by some poor catching , on the wrong end of a few marginal calls and beat the bat so often you'd be forgiven for thinking the law of averages had been repealed...

Curran had a poor game and will surely give way to Wood or Woakes next week ; but the rest of the bowlers were all pretty good in general...credit is due to West Indies for playing old fashioned Test Cricket and grinding out a score.

Unfortunately England couldn't follow their example...

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Post by alfie Sun 03 Feb 2019, 1:31 am

M
msp83 wrote:West Indies get the job finished in style. A 10 wicket thumping of England following the 381 run thrashing in the first test! Utterly dominant performance from the West Indies, reminding of the glory days.
Jason Holder, who along with Kemar Roach who led the charge with the ball in the England 2nd innings, can indeed be a very proud captain! Absolutely brilliant from the West Indies, truly pathetic from England.

I have liked Holder since he took up the challenge of leading the struggling team : he seems to have done wonders with developing a real team instead of the rabble that had been losing so tamely for the last few years. Getting rid of prima donnas like Gayle and Samuels has helped.

His own game has gone from strength to strength too. Maybe West Indian Cricket isn't dead after all thumbsup

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Post by KP_fan Sun 03 Feb 2019, 9:23 am

alfie wrote:
KP_fan wrote:In the overall analysis...Eng were about 15 runs short of par score in first inning.....and  conceded 100 runs too many to WI

A chase of 130 would have tested WI in the last inning

Surely they can't keep Curran in the side when they give him only 13 out of 131 overs......when Broad has to bowl 36 & Anderson 30 overs

Eng bowlers took 131 overs to get WI out once.....while WI bowlers bowled out Eng twice in a total of 100 overs
Eng's bowlers lost them the game more than batsmen

Sorry , KP _fan , but that is absolute nonsense.

As you say , you only ever watched a few highlights , and it shows.    The "excuse " for the batsmen is that they were inserted on a tricky pitch on day one ...but even so they just didn't play well enough and were about forty or fifty runs under par. And the second innings speaks for itself.

The bowlers were definitely unlucky  : let down by some poor catching , on the wrong end of a few marginal calls and beat the bat so often you'd be forgiven for thinking the law of averages had been repealed...

Curran had a poor game and will surely give way to Wood or Woakes next week ; but the rest of the bowlers were all pretty good in general...credit is due to West Indies for playing old fashioned Test Cricket and grinding out a score.  

Unfortunately England couldn't follow their example...
I did watch most of yesterday's game live  to confirm the view formed on highlights....that the pitch was difficult......so difficult that 200ish was the par score in my view
so Eng was only 15 short of par in first inning ......but allowed WI to score 100 above par...and that cost them the game

Bowlers have to cope the blame for letting a weak Opposition score 50% more than the par ....and letting them bat 130 overs
yes WI batsmen get a lot of credit for applying.......but English bowlers are not excused for conceding 100 runs too many...in my view.

It was quite obvious that WI fast bowling was firing on 4 cylinders.....all 4 bowlers being effective
Eng was a 2 and a half cylinder engine.......heavily reliant on top 2.....i.e Anderson & Broad......3 cylinder non-existent Curran......and 4th Stokes was OK.....so 2 and three quarters at best
The over-loads and bowlers spoils in the end on English bowling card confirm the missing 1.5 cylinder in their engine


Last edited by KP_fan on Sun 03 Feb 2019, 1:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by guildfordbat Sun 03 Feb 2019, 12:16 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
VTR wrote:This isn't a match where you can just look at the scorecard and interpret it. England were put in and didn't bat that well, but not terribly and their score was felt to be competitive. Windies then closed day one after probably the most astonishingly lucky opening partnership of all time. It really was classic not good enough to edge the ball stuff. That did take the sting out of England, but still yesterday the bat was beaten so many times it was ridiculous (Broad has said 103 times which must come from the team analyst)

England will lose this but have genuinely had zero luck, whereas they were just rubbish in the first Test

I was out yesterday and didn't see any of the play which spared you my comments.

As I usually do, I appreciate VTR's post but a question arises for me - and meant seriously - why didn't we bowl more at the stumps?

As a post script to my question, it was noticeable - to me at least - that 7 of the England batsmen were bowled (admittedly one was dragged on) or lbw in their second innings.

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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs Sun 03 Feb 2019, 12:32 pm

I don't see in what world Anderson and Broad can claim they were 'unlucky' during the Windies first innings. Anderson continually bowled too far outside off stump, about 5th stump, and bowled about a foot to short. So Windies might've played/missed over a 100 times but it's due to the all doing too much due to the length and line.

Where was a recent test in Perth where India spearhead Bumrah caused 51 play/miss situations and he admitted after he bowled too short.

As for the batting it's getting critical now. The lack of hundreds is getting worst all the time.

Root 15 centuries in 145 innings - scores a century every 9.66 innings
Bairstow 6 centuries in 108 innings - scores a century every 18 innings
Stokes 6 centuries in 93 innings - scores a century every 15.5 innings
Moeen 5 centuries in 99 innings - scores a century every 19.8 innings
Buttler 1 century in 52 innings

This is the engine room of the batting and the returns are fairly modest. In fact Moeen hasn't scored a century since 2016. And Stokes hasn't scored one since 2017.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 03 Feb 2019, 3:12 pm

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again - it absolutely amazes me that Ramprakash’s job as batting coach is seemingly never up for discussion or under the microscope - all these collapses have come under his watch, and what young players or bats have come into the side during his tenure and improved?
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Post by VTR Sun 03 Feb 2019, 4:35 pm

That's a fair point. He has literally turned the whole lineup into himself as well. He had so much talent but averaged about 30. Hmm, familiar stuff

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Post by msp83 Sun 03 Feb 2019, 5:16 pm

As for England, I share KPF's point that the bowlers have got away with some very legitimate questions of the horrer show from the batsmen. The score of 187, while not being great, wasn't a terrible effort on that track. Certainly underwhelming, but that's about it.
After not making them play enough initially, the WI bowlers adjusted the lines much better and kept asking questions of the batsmen regularly. Yes, there were quite a lot of play and miss from the West Indies batsmen particularly John Campbell, but the English bowlers including Anderson and Broad, didn't target the stumps enough. Even Shannon Gabriel could leave a disproportionate number of balls, and when the batsmen missed, they hardly got hit on the pads or got bowled. And when the ball hit the pad, it was often bouncing over. The track had bounce, variable, mostly greater bounce, but the lengths didn't help much. Curran didn't turn up for the 2nd game running. He most certainly need to add a couple of yards of pace if he's to stay in contention for a bowling spot in the team outside swinging conditions.

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Post by Gooseberry Mon 04 Feb 2019, 11:24 am

Holders been suspended for slow over rates.

Some comments on his captaincy above, Im not so sure hes been that great really. West Indies record under him has been awful, the only other series hes won more than 1 test in was Bangladesh at home.
As a player at home hes been brilliant, away pretty poor (aside from the UAE tour).

This performance from the West Indies has really come out of the blue. Like most teams theyve been better at home than away, but theres been little to suggest they would collectively lift up this much. Certainly there must be some credit to the leadership for that, but its not been the sort of overnight transformation someone like Misbah bought to Pakistan.

England will be very glad hes gone anyway. Theres little they can do as far as changes go with the squad they have. The batsmen get another chance to deliver, the only real question is Curran vs Woakes.
Looking at Currans record hes only ever once taken more than one wicket in an innings, that brilliant game against India does seem to have given everyone a false impression of his abilities ...except Root, who hardly ever lets him bowl. So you could argue the lack of over is why hes not got the wickets, but even accounting for that his records becoming alarmingly bad away form home. And its no great surprise given the speed he bowls at and without the extreme skills of Anderson.
Going back to discussions around the Sri Lanka tour, England have missed the opportunity to look at a fast bowler. TBF Stone may have got a game here if he hadnt got injured,  Jamie Overton has been playing in the Lions 50 overs games. But they dont look any closer to getting that genuine quick bowler for these overseas tour at that they identified they needed at the start of the last Ashes. Whilst theres not really a lot they could've done differently in regard to batsmen there have been bowling options they could've taken or used differently this winter.

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Post by shivfan Wed 06 Feb 2019, 9:30 am

It's absolutely ridiculous to have a slow over-rate penalty for a match that finishes with more than two days to spare. Only two overs were lost, and I doubt you could find too many fans inside North Sound who were complaining about that. This law should only be applied to matches that are drawn.

It's good to see some former cricketers share that view....

"The test didn't go 3 days - can you please appeal this @JaseHolder98 ! What a ridiculous decision - where's the common sense here? Ps Congrats on a wonderful series win too. International cricket needs a strong Windies team & hopefully this is just the start @BrianLara," Shane Warne tweeted.

Holder was quick to the reply to the Warne saying, “thank you". Not just Warne, former England captain Michael Vaughan also tweeted his views on this issue.

He tweeted, “246 over Test Match .. that amounts to 2.6 days of Cricket .. A team hammers the opposition & plays great Test cricket yet the Captain gets a ban for Slow over rate .. @Jaseholder98 can find himself very very unlucky on this occasion .. !! The game really doesn’t help itself ...”

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cricket/ridiculous-decision-shane-warne-michael-vaughan-slam-icc-for-suspending-jason-holder/story-DJxC8PfL3CwvMdgb7HnBQJ.html

There's a simple solution. Change the law to make it applicable only to matches that are drawn....

To quote Bumble in Oliver Twist (I think!), the law is an ass!
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Post by El Radar Wed 06 Feb 2019, 9:33 am

Simple solution to that, get a move on with things, no sympathy at all.

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Post by Gooseberry Wed 06 Feb 2019, 11:03 am

Im with Radar on this.

Its not just cheating the paying public and broadcasters and increasing the likelihood of a draw. It also gives fast bowlers increased rest and can be used to increase the pressue on batsmen and control the tempo of the game.

Given how few scoring strokes there were theres absolutely no reason that over rates should be that bad, other than by the fielding sides choice to benefit themselves. Manipulating the rules in that way is cheating.

Suspending the captain was bought in as a reaction to them not taking other penalties seriously enough. Its not like he didn't know this would happen when he made the conscious decision to allow his team to bowl so slowly, and his bowlers (including himself) would've been conscious of this too. Holder has the responsibility for his ban, the hoo ha being kicked up is a smokescreen.

The question really should be is it enough of a deterrent? It seems not. The other option on the table is to give penalty runs, but that deciding a game seems to be even more unpalatable.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 06 Feb 2019, 11:23 am

Yep it’s not difficult - I don’t understand how the media on one hand moans at england in the summer for not getting 90 overs in a day (tipping off the public etc), yet when the WIndies do it (and clearly have been doing it for a bit) suddenly the ICC are horrible, horrific people!

The rules are the rules. You can’t just decide to not apply them because Holder is nice and it’s a good story. It doesn’t matter that the game finished within three days either that’s a completely moot point
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Post by LondonTiger Wed 06 Feb 2019, 11:29 am

There is also, arguably, a sporting issue. It is a lot easier to steam in fast for extended periods when bowling at 12 overs an hour rather than at 15 overs an hour.

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Post by guildfordbat Wed 06 Feb 2019, 12:08 pm

Goose makes a good case above. With this sort of thing, I'm especially sympathetic towards the spectator who has spent time and money in travelling to the ground and going through the gate.

I've got tickets for two days at the Oval Test this year for which I've forked out around 200 quid (they're not the best seats in the house either by any means). Ok, that was my choice but, subject to the weather etc, I feel it's reasonable to expect to see 180 overs bowled over the two days for that sort of dosh. You lot can even more certainly expect me here moaning if I don't!

The one other thing I would add is that the umpires have a responsibility to keep the game moving. I didn't see much of the last Test so can't comment on what actually caused the slow over rate but, accepting it was Holder's fault, why did they let him get away with it? If they knew that they might have suffered a deduction from their fees, I reckon that would resulted in everyone getting a move on.

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Post by El Radar Wed 06 Feb 2019, 12:15 pm

I don't see it being the responsibility of the umpires to be honest as long as match fee deductions are the punishment, it's down to the captain to ensure the over rate is abided by.

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Post by Duty281 Wed 06 Feb 2019, 12:32 pm

shivfan wrote:There's a simple solution. Change the law to make it applicable only to matches that are drawn....

To quote Bumble in Oliver Twist (I think!), the law is an ass!

A slow over rate is a slow over rate regardless of whether the game goes the distance or not. And slow over rates are one of the most infuriating things in Test cricket (along with England being unable to bat), so it's good to see Holder get banned. Who knows, maybe he'll learn from it in the future.

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Post by guildfordbat Wed 06 Feb 2019, 12:45 pm

El Radar wrote:I don't see it being the responsibility of the umpires to be honest as long as match fee deductions are the punishment, it's down to the captain to ensure the over rate is abided by.

Radar - ''It's a game of opinions, sir'' but I believe that the umpires do have a responsibility for what happens (or doesn't) on the field to the extent that they can sensibly control it. That doesn't mean they should be automatically blamed and/or punished for every failing or wrongdoing of others but equally I don't see that they (the umpires) should be allowed to adopt a ''nothing to do with me'' attitude whilst the game is on and the paying spectator is being short changed.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 06 Feb 2019, 12:55 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
El Radar wrote:I don't see it being the responsibility of the umpires to be honest as long as match fee deductions are the punishment, it's down to the captain to ensure the over rate is abided by.

Radar - ''It's a game of opinions, sir'' but I believe that the umpires do have a responsibility for what happens (or doesn't) on the field to the extent that they can sensibly control it. That doesn't mean they should be automatically blamed and/or punished for every failing or wrongdoing of others but equally I don't see that they (the umpires) should be allowed to adopt a ''nothing to do with me'' attitude whilst the game is on and the paying spectator is being short changed.

Totally agree with this - they are there to uphold the laws and rules of the game, they should receive fines or bans too for slow over rates.

Ultimately they need to start making the punishments harsher until it becomes a deterrent so teams start hitting over rates. Only way it’ll ever get sorted properly
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Post by JDizzle Wed 06 Feb 2019, 4:24 pm

On a slightly different note, anyone know who the Windies are likely to pick to replace Holder? They’ve called up Keemo Paul who looks to be more of a like for like replacement, but I hope they pick Oshane Thomas as they have nothing to lose. He is seriously sharp.

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Post by Gooseberry Wed 06 Feb 2019, 6:57 pm

They can borrow Sam Curran if they want

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 07 Feb 2019, 1:52 pm

Lions are playing India A in India at the moment - in a first class game. Runs again for Ben Duckett (top score so far with 80), 61 for Sam Hain and 40 not out for Will Jacks - no runs for Pope or Billings

303-5 at the end of day one.

Be interesting to see how Duckett goes at Notts - he seems to be having a decent winter with the Lions. He was a little harshly disposed of I thought, seeing as he was chucked in on spinning dustbowls in Bangladesh/India - and whilst struggled showed some promise. Thought he was worth a shot in more familiar conditions
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Post by Gooseberry Thu 07 Feb 2019, 7:51 pm

My understanding with Duckett is that he was always primarily seen as an short format player and picked as an attacking batsman to take the game to spinners away from home in tests, a bit like Malan. As well as struggling in tests the incident with Anderson (perhaps rather harshly given what the likes of Stokes have been up to) that saw him kicked down the line. He has a decent ODI record, but any player is going to struggle to crack into that side properly.
When it comes down to it hes just another big hitting batsman with a sub 40 county average and a poor record in tests. I dont see him really fixing Englands current issues or being a success in top 5 against Aussie quicks on a swinging home pitch.
He also scored 0 and 9 in the last game.

Im more interested in Holden, they seem to be putting a lot into this guy as one of the rare breed of specialist first class openers in the county game. This is much closer to the approach I was advocating previously to put real focus on encouraging the players with a natural test game to stick with it and help them turn it into an all round game that can flourish at test level. Hes a long way off the team at the minute ( well I say that ....) but at least theres some glimmer than in a couple of years there might be a player coming through and that the England set up are trying to help develop him. Whether or not he will ever be good enough though is debatable, as is whether playing in D2 will pay him enough to stick with it or give him the exposure to quality he needs to kick on.

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Post by guildfordbat Thu 07 Feb 2019, 8:06 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Lions are playing India A in India at the moment - in a first class game. Runs again for Ben Duckett (top score so far with 80), 61 for Sam Hain and 40 not out for Will Jacks - no runs for Pope or Billings

303-5 at the end of day one.

Be interesting to see how Duckett goes at Notts - he seems to be having a decent winter with the Lions. He was a little harshly disposed of I thought, seeing as he was chucked in on spinning dustbowls in Bangladesh/India - and whilst struggled showed some promise. Thought he was worth a shot in more familiar conditions

Olly - mainly for you and the Surrey mafia but possibly a contest within a contest? It won't be easy for both Jacks and Pope to get in a Surrey team at near full strength. Pope was streets ahead last summer but I'm not so sure that's still the case. Pope's best chance with Surrey might be keeping if Foakes stays with England.

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Post by KP_fan Thu 07 Feb 2019, 8:08 pm

shivfan wrote:It's absolutely ridiculous to have a slow over-rate penalty for a match that finishes with more than two days to spare. Only two overs were lost, and I doubt you could find too many fans inside North Sound who were complaining about that. This law should only be applied to matches that are drawn.

It's good to see some former cricketers share that view....

"The test didn't go 3 days - can you please appeal this @JaseHolder98 ! What a ridiculous decision - where's the common sense here? Ps Congrats on a wonderful series win too. International cricket needs a strong Windies team & hopefully this is just the start @BrianLara," Shane Warne tweeted.

Holder was quick to the reply to the Warne saying, “thank you". Not just Warne, former England captain Michael Vaughan also tweeted his views on this issue.

He tweeted, “246 over Test Match .. that amounts to 2.6 days of Cricket .. A team hammers the opposition & plays great Test cricket yet the Captain gets a ban for Slow over rate .. @Jaseholder98 can find himself very very unlucky on this occasion .. !! The game really doesn’t help itself ...”

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cricket/ridiculous-decision-shane-warne-michael-vaughan-slam-icc-for-suspending-jason-holder/story-DJxC8PfL3CwvMdgb7HnBQJ.html

There's a simple solution. Change the law to make it applicable only to matches that are drawn....

To quote Bumble in Oliver Twist (I think!), the law is an ass!

Very Unfair to Holder & WI, Travesty.......ICC wouldn't dare do that to Kohli or Root:mad:
Karma will come in and Eng will lose Stokes to bring balance
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Post by Gooseberry Thu 07 Feb 2019, 8:22 pm

KP_fan wrote:
shivfan wrote:It's absolutely ridiculous to have a slow over-rate penalty for a match that finishes with more than two days to spare. Only two overs were lost, and I doubt you could find too many fans inside North Sound who were complaining about that. This law should only be applied to matches that are drawn.

It's good to see some former cricketers share that view....

"The test didn't go 3 days - can you please appeal this @JaseHolder98 ! What a ridiculous decision - where's the common sense here? Ps Congrats on a wonderful series win too. International cricket needs a strong Windies team & hopefully this is just the start @BrianLara," Shane Warne tweeted.

Holder was quick to the reply to the Warne saying, “thank you". Not just Warne, former England captain Michael Vaughan also tweeted his views on this issue.

He tweeted, “246 over Test Match .. that amounts to 2.6 days of Cricket .. A team hammers the opposition & plays great Test cricket yet the Captain gets a ban for Slow over rate .. @Jaseholder98 can find himself very very unlucky on this occasion .. !! The game really doesn’t help itself ...”

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cricket/ridiculous-decision-shane-warne-michael-vaughan-slam-icc-for-suspending-jason-holder/story-DJxC8PfL3CwvMdgb7HnBQJ.html

There's a simple solution. Change the law to make it applicable only to matches that are drawn....

To quote Bumble in Oliver Twist (I think!), the law is an ass!

Very Unfair to Holder & WI, Travesty.......ICC wouldn't dare do that to Kohli or Root:mad:
Karma will come in and Eng will lose Stokes to bring balance  

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/dec/04/england-alastair-cook-banned-sri-lanka


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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 07 Feb 2019, 8:29 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Lions are playing India A in India at the moment - in a first class game. Runs again for Ben Duckett (top score so far with 80), 61 for Sam Hain and 40 not out for Will Jacks - no runs for Pope or Billings

303-5 at the end of day one.

Be interesting to see how Duckett goes at Notts - he seems to be having a decent winter with the Lions. He was a little harshly disposed of I thought, seeing as he was chucked in on spinning dustbowls in Bangladesh/India - and whilst struggled showed some promise. Thought he was worth a shot in more familiar conditions

Olly - mainly for you and the Surrey mafia but possibly a contest within a contest? It won't be easy for both Jacks and Pope to get in a Surrey team at near full strength. Pope was streets ahead last summer but I'm not so sure that's still the case. Pope's best chance with Surrey might be keeping if Foakes stays with England.

They certainly rate Jacks very highly - as clearly do england! Pope’s hit a bit of a rough patch, hopefully he bounces back

Speaking of Surrey - I see Dobell is reporting my trifecta of Woakes, Stokes and Foakes are all injury doubts Sad

Woakes has been carrying a knee issue which explains why we haven’t seen him this tour, Foakes still struggling with his hand injury, and Stokes, injured running on the beach of all things (this is why when to go to the beach you only lay with a drink Ben!)
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler Fri 08 Feb 2019, 8:22 am

Appears the plan would be Jennings back in to open, Denly at 3, Bairstow to keep and play lower down the order (is guess 5).

I can see the logic, but I’d genuinely rather they just check Jennings into 5 and give both Denly and Bairstow more time playing where you’d assume they would plan for them to play going forward (if the team in the last test wasn’t just a short term measure).

Foakes did train, so whether he can bat but doesn’t keep, I’m unsure. Assuming he, Stokes and Woakes are all unfit

Burns
Jennings
Denly
Root
YJB
Buttler
Mo
Curran
Broad
Leach
Anderson

I can’t remember if I’m missing someone. I’d guess it’s likely Foakes will make it and Leach doesn’t get pushed in

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Post by James100 Fri 08 Feb 2019, 8:30 am

Reports that Wood is likely to replace Curran.

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Post by Gooseberry Fri 08 Feb 2019, 8:43 am

Jacks ended on 63 and the rest of the order surrendered first team style leaving them 340 all out.

Billings as all formats captain for the Lions...I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that. He does make a lot of sense for the shorter formats but what is he going to impart to the team in terms of developing them as long form players of the type England lack?
Nor is there any danger that he will ever get picked for the test side even if England didnt already have 4 keepers in the side. His spot seems wasted.

Interesting comments regarding Jacks potentially pushing Pope out for Surrey. Neither has shown much on the Lions tour so far though, and presumably that would only be for the few games that all the international batsmen are available for?
Jacks is surely quite a long way off a senior squad place, very early days for him. But again its good to see England getting hold of these guys early to look at them and see what they are made of, the real key is following that up with a structured long term development plan and working with the Surrey coaches to encourage him to keep working as a long format player. The reality though is that hes likely to get pushed into being a bits and pieces all rounder to cover all 4 squads for Surrey, his opportunities and success so far have mostly come in the 20 and 50 overs games.

Picking up the comments regarding the batting coach above, I had been questioning Gooch for some time before the change on the same basis. Seeing another coach have exactly the same problems Im now of the opinion that it may well be as much the raw materials that they are given as their coaching thats the issue here.



The injuries and enforced squad changes are yet another nail for England on this tour. I dont really have an issue with Curran to be fair but overall the changes weaken the batting further. Wood is not the fast (which he isnt really) bowler thats going to fundamentally change Englands attack into a real force. Jennings is just junk, even if it does make the top 7 look closer to their proper positions. Missing Stokes right now is just huge, Andersons already been overbowled and a shortened bowling line up wont help that.

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Post by VTR Fri 08 Feb 2019, 11:35 am

Did I just read that Stokes getting injured is somehow karma for Holder's ban? Ive seen some ridiculous comments over the years but that has to be the worst off the lot

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Post by El Radar Fri 08 Feb 2019, 11:39 am

KP_fan wrote:
shivfan wrote:It's absolutely ridiculous to have a slow over-rate penalty for a match that finishes with more than two days to spare. Only two overs were lost, and I doubt you could find too many fans inside North Sound who were complaining about that. This law should only be applied to matches that are drawn.

It's good to see some former cricketers share that view....

"The test didn't go 3 days - can you please appeal this @JaseHolder98 ! What a ridiculous decision - where's the common sense here? Ps Congrats on a wonderful series win too. International cricket needs a strong Windies team & hopefully this is just the start @BrianLara," Shane Warne tweeted.

Holder was quick to the reply to the Warne saying, “thank you". Not just Warne, former England captain Michael Vaughan also tweeted his views on this issue.

He tweeted, “246 over Test Match .. that amounts to 2.6 days of Cricket .. A team hammers the opposition & plays great Test cricket yet the Captain gets a ban for Slow over rate .. @Jaseholder98 can find himself very very unlucky on this occasion .. !! The game really doesn’t help itself ...”

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cricket/ridiculous-decision-shane-warne-michael-vaughan-slam-icc-for-suspending-jason-holder/story-DJxC8PfL3CwvMdgb7HnBQJ.html

There's a simple solution. Change the law to make it applicable only to matches that are drawn....

To quote Bumble in Oliver Twist (I think!), the law is an ass!

Very Unfair to Holder & WI, Travesty.......ICC wouldn't dare do that to Kohli or Root:mad:
Karma will come in and Eng will lose Stokes to bring balance  

****

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Post by guildfordbat Fri 08 Feb 2019, 11:58 am

VTR wrote:Did I just read that Stokes getting injured is somehow karma for Holder's ban? Ive seen some ridiculous comments over the years but that has to be the worst off the lot

I thought I saw that as I glanced quickly at the thread last night after the usual Thursday night at the pub with the boys (old gits). I put it down at the time to having more beers than I remembered! Shocked Wink

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Post by Gooseberry Fri 08 Feb 2019, 12:36 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
shivfan wrote:It's absolutely ridiculous to have a slow over-rate penalty for a match that finishes with more than two days to spare. Only two overs were lost, and I doubt you could find too many fans inside North Sound who were complaining about that. This law should only be applied to matches that are drawn.

It's good to see some former cricketers share that view....

"The test didn't go 3 days - can you please appeal this @JaseHolder98 ! What a ridiculous decision - where's the common sense here? Ps Congrats on a wonderful series win too. International cricket needs a strong Windies team & hopefully this is just the start @BrianLara," Shane Warne tweeted.

Holder was quick to the reply to the Warne saying, “thank you". Not just Warne, former England captain Michael Vaughan also tweeted his views on this issue.

He tweeted, “246 over Test Match .. that amounts to 2.6 days of Cricket .. A team hammers the opposition & plays great Test cricket yet the Captain gets a ban for Slow over rate .. @Jaseholder98 can find himself very very unlucky on this occasion .. !! The game really doesn’t help itself ...”

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cricket/ridiculous-decision-shane-warne-michael-vaughan-slam-icc-for-suspending-jason-holder/story-DJxC8PfL3CwvMdgb7HnBQJ.html

There's a simple solution. Change the law to make it applicable only to matches that are drawn....

To quote Bumble in Oliver Twist (I think!), the law is an ass!

Very Unfair to Holder & WI, Travesty.......ICC wouldn't dare do that to Kohli or Root:mad:
Karma will come in and Eng will lose Stokes to bring balance  

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/dec/04/england-alastair-cook-banned-sri-lanka


http://www.espncricinfo.com/indvsl2009/content/story/440276.html


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Post by guildfordbat Fri 08 Feb 2019, 2:28 pm

Meanwhile, the England Lions bowlers are not having much joy either as India A end the second day on 219/1 in response to our 340 all out.

Bowling mainly being shared out between Chappell, Gregory, Porter, Mullaney and Briggs with a couple of overs from Jacks. Can't make a true judgement from here but doesn't seem like an especially dangerous attack pushing for Test selections.

I understand goose's reservations about Duckett but agree with Olly that he merits being under consideration.

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Post by KP_fan Fri 08 Feb 2019, 3:43 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Meanwhile, the England Lions bowlers are not having much joy either as India A end the second day on 219/1 in response to our 340 all out.


That KL Rahul was allowed to open and is also the captain implies he is still in scheme of things for the India test side.....that they are looking at his Aus performance as a mere temporary loss in form
A bit surprising that 8 of England's wickets fell to pace......Navdeep Saini is reportedly the fastest in India currently I wrote of him in the Aus-Ind thread
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Post by KP_fan Fri 08 Feb 2019, 3:50 pm

VTR wrote:Did I just read that Stokes getting injured is somehow karma for Holder's ban? Ive seen some ridiculous comments over the years but that has to be the worst off the lot

I am serious...ICC's actions of considering sanctioning the pitch & banning Holder are over the top Shocked

and it's only a fair if Stokes is out due to unforced reasons...... to balance the unfair forced out on Holder
Both teams will stand equally diluted Very Happy

Karma was coined for such situations

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Fri 08 Feb 2019, 5:18 pm

Now now children

Obligatory Mark wood end of winter series appearance is happening again
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Post by James100 Fri 08 Feb 2019, 5:22 pm

Foakes officially dropped and Jennings recalled. Surely even if you want to push Bairstow back down the order, Foakes would do better at the top against the Windies quicks!

Looks like the final decision is Stokes/Curran, with Curran playing if Stokes can't bowl.

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Post by JDizzle Fri 08 Feb 2019, 6:05 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Meanwhile, the England Lions bowlers are not having much joy either as India A end the second day on 219/1 in response to our 340 all out.

Bowling mainly being shared out between Chappell, Gregory, Porter, Mullaney and Briggs with a couple of overs from Jacks. Can't make a true judgement from here but doesn't seem like an especially dangerous attack pushing for Test selections.

I understand goose's reservations about Duckett but agree with Olly that he merits being under consideration.

Zak Chappell’s figures deserve some credit - 10-2-28-1. Especially the economy, which is normally a problem for him and would have been exposed if he bowled poorly. He took 16 wickets in 4 games in the CC last year, at a ludicrous strike rate of 29 (average of 15). He’s tall, he’s very quick and he can bat. If he can stay fit at Notts next year, keep an eye out.

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Post by Duty281 Fri 08 Feb 2019, 6:10 pm

What a fascinating misunderstanding of karma by KP_Fan.

Anyway, England’s selection is a mess. Poor Foakes.

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Post by VTR Fri 08 Feb 2019, 6:33 pm

Mark Wood coming in might improve the batting!

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Post by LondonTiger Fri 08 Feb 2019, 7:33 pm

Rearranging the deck chairs comes to mind.

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Post by Duty281 Fri 08 Feb 2019, 9:23 pm

So according to Cricinfo, it'll be Denly at 2 and Jennings at 3 (surely it should be the other way round?). I see no logical reason for dropping Foakes (promising player) for Jennings (consistent failure; short-term option). Wood is in for Curran, another short-term solution, though Curran might come back in if Stokes isn't fit. Bizarre selection. Let's just recall Panesar and be done with it.

Some interesting tidbits about the ground in St. Lucia. It's got a lot for the quicks, including plenty of bounce, with very little for the twirlers. Seamers average about 16 runs fewer than the spinners. England have never played a test here.

And the last time the West Indies won a series by a three test margin (or more) was back in 1989 against India. Blimey.

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Post by guildfordbat Fri 08 Feb 2019, 9:41 pm

Duty - you having a wager on this one? If so, where's your money? Genuinely interested.

Hard to see England coming back although I do think Holder is a big loss for the West Indies.

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Post by Duty281 Fri 08 Feb 2019, 9:52 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Duty - you having a wager on this one? If so, where's your money? Genuinely interested.

Alas, I'm not. Wouldn't know where to go with this one. I have zero confidence in the English batting but, at the same time, England do have the capability to bowl the Windies out for under 150. The Windies have been playing above themselves this series - will that continue? Who knows! Holder's a big loss, but maybe it'll be the sort of loss to a side that ends up motivating and inspiring them. Whatever happens, I hope it'll be a closer contest!

England still narrowly odds-on (4/5) with most places, Windies around 13/8, for what it's worth.

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Post by guildfordbat Fri 08 Feb 2019, 10:17 pm

Duty281 wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:Duty - you having a wager on this one? If so, where's your money? Genuinely interested.

Alas, I'm not. Wouldn't know where to go with this one. I have zero confidence in the English batting but, at the same time, England do have the capability to bowl the Windies out for under 150. The Windies have been playing above themselves this series - will that continue? Who knows! Holder's a big loss, but maybe it'll be the sort of loss to a side that ends up motivating and inspiring them. Whatever happens, I hope it'll be a closer contest!

England still narrowly odds-on (4/5) with most places, Windies around 13/8, for what it's worth.

Cheers, Duty. Having just read Dobell's latest article on cricinfo, it's hard to think of England being odds-on.

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