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Joshua vs Ruiz Jr

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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 8:45 am

First topic message reminder :

300lber Miller’s shot at Joshua seems to be cancelled after he produced an ‘adverse sample’.


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Post by No name Bertie on Sun 02 Jun 2019, 3:50 pm

Checking Frank Bruno's boxing career there seems to be some startling comparisons with Joshua's record.

Bruno didn't have much of an amateur career at all - he has a 20-1 amateur record. He entered a boxing gym aged 14. Only had 21 amateur fights. Turned professional in 1982 aged 20 won his first 21 fights and then got exposed by James Bonecrusher Smith in his 22nd fight - getting caught in the tenth round.

Of course there are significant differences in achievements but in terms of ring experience, physique, ringcraft, movement - great similarity.

Bruno got better after the loss - but he had a habit of turning into a zombie when he was clocked by a mega punch - punches which would have sent other boxers to the canvass - allowing them to avoid further punishment and giving them time to recover - Bruno just stood bolt upright exposing himself to further unguarded punishment.

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Post by Steffan on Sun 02 Jun 2019, 4:38 pm

The Englishman got beaten. That was a nice result Very Happy

Hopefully no more fights in Cardiff

Ah well...at least you English have got world champions to get beaten

More than us Taffies have at the moment laughing

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Post by Mr Bounce on Sun 02 Jun 2019, 11:17 pm

Hearn and Joshua had this coming - too much "Brand" and not enough boxing. He was promoting this that and the other and not concentrating on the day job. He had his failings i.e movement and defensive skills but didn't try and improve them. No sympathy.

I would like to see what Ruiz does next. A Wilder fight could be hilarious fun.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Mon 03 Jun 2019, 9:46 am

And some people were calling this a new golden age for the heavyweight division

Worse still some were saying the division has moved on to a new level and the great champions of yesteryear wouldn’t have lived with the behemoths of today

Shows a lack of understanding of the history of the division

Why do you think they never created a super heavyweight division in the first place?

Because they knew these giants mostly couldn’t hold a shot. I’m not saying there aren’t exceptions but they are a rarity- a huge rarity

Two rounds? He wouldn’t have gone two minutes with Tyson. And Ali wouldn’t even have been a contest the gulf in class

He was in the right place at the right time and good luck to him he made a fortune. He should go off and enjoy it why risk an aneurysm or worse if your hearts no longer in it? Just put your feet up and go in to his politics or something

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Post by Just John on Mon 03 Jun 2019, 9:50 am

No wonder you hear rumours of Wlad back in the gym.

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Post by hogey on Mon 03 Jun 2019, 11:14 am

He got smashed in temple by a 270lb puncher, never really knew where he was after that shot.

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Post by rIck_dAgless on Mon 03 Jun 2019, 12:53 pm

Odd night of boxing:

Josh Kelly is still trying to showboat too much and is getting tagged as he moves up, I think he lost that fight though it was no means a robbery.

Katie Taylor looked embarrassed that she got the decision at the end of the fight, and again I had her down on the cards.

Callum Smith delivered and did it in style, hope he can kick on to the big fights now

AJ didn't want to be there, you could see it from the ring walk, he needs to get rid of McCracken, and bring in someone who can motivate him, especially when the chips are down.

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Post by Mr Bounce on Mon 03 Jun 2019, 4:17 pm

Rick that's a very good point - one wonders if Joshua is simply fed up of all the contractual obligations and the Hearn bandwagon. Plus it does seem that once things don't go quite AJ's way, that McCracken struggles. Someone like Freddie Roach would have been ideal for him. There's too many "Yes Men" in his entourage and all but the essentials need to go. All the nutritionists and psychologists in the world won't do anything for you if you get hit in the face by a humdinger of a shot.

It seems that it was all about the show and as little about the boxing as possible. If Joshua had fought Wilder directly after Wlad, it would have been a great fight. However, since then he's been given precious little to motivate him. Parker was nothing but a belt opponent, Povetkin a past-it mandatory and Takam was simply an outclassed stand-in. Following the failures to get any sort of breakthrough in attracting Wilder to a fight it's no wonder that he couldn't get up for Ruiz. Once he'd knocked him down in the 3rd, he lost concentration, expecting nothing more than a 3rd round stoppage. After that round and the AJ knockdowns, the fight was pretty much over.

So how would you fix AJ? And is it fixable?

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Post by Atila on Mon 03 Jun 2019, 6:48 pm

Herman Jaeger wrote:And some people were calling this a new golden age for the heavyweight division

Worse still some were saying the division has moved on to a new level and the great champions of yesteryear wouldn’t have lived with the behemoths of today


Shows a lack of understanding of the history of the division

Why do you think they never created a super heavyweight division in the first place?

Because they knew these giants mostly couldn’t hold a shot. I’m not saying there aren’t exceptions but they are a rarity- a huge rarity

Two rounds? He wouldn’t have gone two minutes with Tyson. And Ali wouldn’t even have been a contest the gulf in class

He was in the right place at the right time and good luck to him he made a fortune. He should go off and enjoy it why risk an aneurysm or worse if your hearts no longer in it? Just put your feet up and go in to his politics or something
HA, I was thinking the same thing  Smile. If a tubby like Ruiz can beat Joshua, I can't see why a 1940's Joe Louis couldn't have done the same or a young Ali, Frazier, Foreman or Holmes last Saturday night. Obviously, things haven't improved as drastically as some people like to think.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Mon 03 Jun 2019, 7:47 pm

Haha Joshua to beat Louis that’s a good one

https://youtu.be/kDx2k7BEIoE

https://youtu.be/E-4DMPM2lns

https://youtu.be/eofMiO7nvKc

Joshua to beat Foreman that’s even funnier. And can you imagine Ruiz beating Frazier?

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Post by No name Bertie on Mon 03 Jun 2019, 8:45 pm

Post fight it was mentioned by some that Anthony Joshua doesn't have a jab and doesn't have much of a defence. Despite a signficant height and reach advantage he wasn't able to box at distance. He should have been able to jab his way to victory - keep it long - soften him up - and then knock him down when Ruiz tired.

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Post by catchweight on Mon 03 Jun 2019, 8:53 pm

Joshua has the best possible set up. He cant have any excuses.

For me he just made a critical mistake in thinking he had the fight won when he floored Ruiz and rushed in to finish him off somewhat recklessly. He got caught himself and never really recovered. The punch totally seemed to scramble him.

Best chance Ruiz had of winning was a fire fight at close range, especially early on, and thats what Joshua engaged in and came off second best. A foot slow boxer like Ruiz who plods forward should be straightforward to beat for a guy like Joshua by just moving, jabbing and landing single big shots.

For all that, Joshua the boxer nowhere near matches Joshua the hype. His jab and movement is only ok. He seems vunerable in exchanges and still lacks quality experience, relying more on natural athleticism than ringcraft to win. But in an era where big man talent is so thin, this is not tested as much as it should be. Wilder gets by in a similar fashion. Fury for me is the best "boxer" of the lot at the moment but doesnt have the kind of raw athleticism or natural power that Wilder and Joshua possess. Hes well ahead in terms of boxing fundamentals like jab, movement, distance control, footwork etc

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Post by hogey on Mon 03 Jun 2019, 11:24 pm

The fight was as good as over the second that temple shot landed, no matter how good your chin is thats the one place that if you connect a hard shot properly it completely ruins you, the balance, judgement of distance and timing all go to pieces and you are not able to even think straight. I doubt Joshua even remembers much of the fight from it landing. If he wants to follow Lewis and Wlad by returning better and stronger from defeat he really needs to work on his defence and maybe lose some of that muscle to make him more agile.

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Post by No name Bertie on Tue 04 Jun 2019, 2:31 am

There is a story going around that Anthony Joshua was knocked out in sparring and his father wanted the fight postponed - because Joshua's brain was scrambled and not mentally focussed / prepared for the fight.  People have reported Joshua's face looking a little pummelled before the fight. After the fight there was a "heated exchange" between Eddie Hearn and Joshua's father.   Obviously there is a lot of money in all this - Joshua earnt millions - and they don't want to be seen as making excuses. At the moment it is claim and rebuttal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_giZ-FOP5Y

Separate to all of this the following gives a fair analysis of the key moments in the fight - punch by punch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIr2LgCpzT8

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Post by rIck_dAgless on Tue 04 Jun 2019, 6:40 am

Mr Bounce wrote:Rick that's a very good point - one wonders if Joshua is simply fed up of all the contractual obligations and the Hearn bandwagon. Plus it does seem that once things don't go quite AJ's way, that McCracken struggles. Someone like Freddie Roach would have been ideal for him. There's too many "Yes Men" in his entourage and all but the essentials need to go. All the nutritionists and psychologists in the world won't do anything for you if you get hit in the face by a humdinger of a shot.

It seems that it was all about the show and as little about the boxing as possible. If Joshua had fought Wilder directly after Wlad, it would have been a great fight. However, since then he's been given precious little to motivate him. Parker was nothing but a belt opponent, Povetkin a past-it mandatory and Takam was simply an outclassed stand-in. Following the failures to get any sort of breakthrough in attracting Wilder to a fight it's no wonder that he couldn't get up for Ruiz. Once he'd knocked him down in the 3rd, he lost concentration, expecting nothing more than a 3rd round stoppage. After that round and the AJ knockdowns, the fight was pretty much over.

So how would you fix AJ? And is it fixable?

I think he needs to go away, get away from the media circus for a while, and get his passion back. I think some of his most defining traits early in his career seemed to be that he always realized his faults, and was willing to go and work on them. That seems to have stopped, and McCracken does not seem to be able to move him on mentally or physically.

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Tue 04 Jun 2019, 7:50 am

The more muscles he puts on the weaker his chin seems to get, it’s a mental condition. He’ll never heed the advice and lose the bulk imo mental condition


Lots of fighters get knocked out in sparring and go on to perform in their fights but if he did have a bad concussion in sparring why was he cleared to fight- 6.45s


https://youtu.be/xiPH4sqeM3E

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 04 Jun 2019, 8:51 am

Herman Jaeger wrote:Haha Joshua to beat Louis that’s a good one

https://youtu.be/kDx2k7BEIoE

https://youtu.be/E-4DMPM2lns

https://youtu.be/eofMiO7nvKc

Joshua to beat Foreman that’s even funnier. And can you imagine Ruiz beating Frazier?

Why couldn't Joshua beat Louis ???...Louis was barely above Cruiser and was chinny...

Joshua would be Five inches taller...Three stone heavier and has power in both hands..

170 pound Billy Conn had Louis staggering around...Schmelling stopped him..

One dimensional Braddock decked him and the awful Galento decked him with a round house..

Laughingly writing a huge guy like Joshua off is plain silly.

Think Foreman..Tyson..Holy..Wilder...Wlad..Fury....

Witherspoon..Holmes..Lewis..Bowe..

All beat Joshua...

Not that Louis isn't a great Heavy...It's just the Heavies were more like cruisers back then...

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Post by superflyweight on Tue 04 Jun 2019, 9:02 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Herman Jaeger wrote:Haha Joshua to beat Louis that’s a good one

https://youtu.be/kDx2k7BEIoE

https://youtu.be/E-4DMPM2lns

https://youtu.be/eofMiO7nvKc

Joshua to beat Foreman that’s even funnier. And can you imagine Ruiz beating Frazier?

Why couldn't Joshua beat Louis ???...Louis was barely above Cruiser and was chinny...

Joshua would be Five inches taller...Three stone heavier and has power in both hands..

170 pound Billy Conn had Louis staggering around...Schmelling stopped him..

One dimensional Braddock decked him and the awful Galento decked him with a round house..

Laughingly writing a huge guy like Joshua off is plain silly.

Think Foreman..Tyson..Holy..Wilder...Wlad..Fury....

Witherspoon..Holmes..Lewis..Bowe..

All beat Joshua...

Not that Louis isn't a great Heavy...It's just the Heavies were more like cruisers back then...

It's just like the old days on here.

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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Tue 04 Jun 2019, 10:39 am

Hearn selected the path of least resistance for Joshua's career and the casual matchroom fanboys lapped up the hype. The continual BS about Joshua's Olympic achievements, where he clearly lost twice.

Hearn made the Joshua-Whyte 'grudge fight' soon after Whyte returned from his drugs ban. Whyte was unfit(overweight) and he nearly KO'd Joshua.

Hearn paid Charles Martin 8m pounds to face Joshua, Martin is considered the worst heavyweight titleholder ever.

Hearn made the Joshua-Klitschko 'unification' after the Ukrainian was mentally destroyed by Fury, secondly Klitschko was out of the ring for 17 months prior to fighting Joshua. Joshua went life and death with the faded former champion. Hearn got that big name on Joshua's CV.

Hearn made the unification with Parker, whom most thought had been lucky against Ruiz jr and Hughie Fury. Joshua plotted around for 12 rounds got the belt but it was an awful fight and exposed Joshua's limitations. Hearn proclaimed Joshua was making history...

Fought Takam, whilst Joshua was winning, when Takam didn't crumble after the knockdown - Joshua was once again clueless as to what to do. But then the ref made the dodgy stoppage.

Then the clearest sign Joshua was just a hype job, fought the long faded Povetkin whom was almost KO'd by journeyman David Price. Povetkin literally schooled Joshua until Joshua overwhelmed the veteran Russian.

Hearn did a good job of fooling casuals that Joshua was facing top guys, but reality shows Joshua feasted on faded fighters

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Post by Derbymanc on Tue 04 Jun 2019, 1:22 pm

Can't believe so many 'fans' are writing Joshua off as a patsy therby totally degrading Ruiz Jr's performance whilst many more knowledgable fans are stating that it was something that could have been forseen as Ruiz Jr was a lot better than anybody gave him credit for.

The heavyweight dvision has and still is a mess, there's no one seriously great in it and none of the champions will go down as brilliant unless they face each other. For all the bluster from all camps this has (hopefully) shown that waiting for the exact perfect moment will just blow up in your face and could derail things massively.

As for AJ's performance, he made the mistake a lot of champions make when they've had smoke blown up them too long and that's too look past his opponent. Same as most of us (me included) he just saw a bloke picked up off the street that do about as much as Norrad did against Hughie. He'll be back and hopefully will learn.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 04 Jun 2019, 2:28 pm

Perhaps some of us less knowledgeable types pictured Ruiz against decent fighters like Greg Page and David Tua..

It didn't end well for him.

But what do we know....

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Post by Derbymanc on Tue 04 Jun 2019, 2:53 pm

Different era, different times Truss. If boxing was based on image alone then we'd have no decent heavyweights at all. Even Fury (considered one of the top 3 of this era) has carried some extra timber.

Ruiz was a lot more skilled than ANYONE gave him credit for and there's now a lot of people (me included) feeling very stupid and unfortunately they're not willing to give any credit where it's due.

Then again, some of these are the same fans thinking that this could be a 'dive' by Joshua to force Wilder into the ring with him so maybe your all right and Ruiz should have the titles stripped just because of how he looks


Also it's the cool thing to jump on the Joshua was overhyped bandwagon at the minute so there's that too ;-)


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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 04 Jun 2019, 3:39 pm

Different era for sure...

Out of shape one dimensional slobs didn't fare to well back then...

Fighters like Page....Tubbs...Learned their craft as Amateurs taking on the great Cubans..Winning countless Pan American titles and Golden Gloves..

Footwork...Ring generalship...Defence acquired and then top trialhorses like Alexander...Ribalta...Tillis.. and Broad to educate them as pros...

Professionals in the ring...Even if they liked their food outside it..

Helps if you were around then though...

Like you say Boxing has moved on..

Heaven help Hagler and Hearns against Jacobs and Alvarez..




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Post by Derbymanc on Tue 04 Jun 2019, 4:39 pm

Think calling Ruiz one dimensional is a bit unfair, decent footwork, good combinations and a good defence, if it wasn't for the ring of flab it wouldn't be as much as a problem.

It's rarer still (or seems to be) to have boxers going through the amateurs or even pushing to get that legacy. Alas my man it's all about the money these days

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Post by catchweight on Tue 04 Jun 2019, 10:04 pm

I dont think Joshua needs wholesale changes to his physique, camp, trainers, promoters etc I would say its largely been those things that has got him to where he is in. Hes been well managed and made a ton of money, has a highly professional training set up and its largely been his athleticism that has won him fights against some of the more technically capable boxers he faced.

Hes been generally fast tracked from the beginning, even as an amateur and been pre packaged as a gold medal winning world champion with the narrative being forced ahead to follow suit. But in experience and technical ability hes been playing catch up with his promotional image. I fancied both Klitschko and Povetkin to beat him as they were technical better boxers but Joshua's youth, power and athleticism over the older guys led to him being able to overpower them after he struggled with them in boxing terms.

I still think 8 or 9 times out of ten Joshua will beat Ruiz who may be a talented light heavyweight in an obese body and whos conditioning cant hide someone who clearly doesnt take their career with the utmost seriousness. This time around Joshua made an error associated with inexperience and rushed in to finish an opponent without being mindful of the dangers and lacking the execution to finish Ruiz off. Cant really point the finger at anyone else.

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Post by rapidringsroad on Tue 04 Jun 2019, 10:14 pm

The only loss on Ruiz's resume is against Parker and most people think that was a home town decision. I think he won that fight comfortably.

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Post by Mochyn du on Tue 04 Jun 2019, 10:28 pm

There were two things that struck me about that fight.

Ruiz was certainly not the slob made out. Nor is he by any means anywhere near the worst heavyweight champion in history considering some of the dross of the noughties holding belts.

The second was Joshua. To me he looked totally wrong in the mind and body. After just a round and a half he looked to be gassing and this was before Ruiz landed any hard leather. His body language looked terrible before the off and it could be nerves took it out of him. Big exposure fight in MSG may have got to him. Either that or his training camp was awful, focused too much on weight training and not enough cardio, as his stamina was woeful.

I seriously think Joshua's head was not in it. A rematch could see a totally different outcome. The only technical problems I saw was his jab. Needs to keep his left hand higher against shorter opponents. Ruiz was finding it too easy to get inside.

Have a feeling Joshua could reverse the rematch and I'm not saying that as a fan of his. Couldn't care less on that front but don't think he should be written off just yet.

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Post by Just John on Wed 05 Jun 2019, 8:41 am

Mochyn du wrote:his training camp was awful

Knocked down by Joey Dawejko in sparring, hence the heavy bruising on his face. Dad wanted AJ pulled from the fight, as they were worried about his health going into the fight. Hearn said the show must go on, given they were pocketing £20m for this breakthrough US fight, and the exposure he would receive, prior to making a Wilder fight. That’s pretty much how it’s been laid out.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 05 Jun 2019, 9:37 am

Interesting last post..

Hagler always said fighting was the easy bit...He said when you start sleeping in silk sheets...Getting up and motivating yourself to do 6 weeks of hard camp is the hard bit..

Perhaps Joshua is enjoying his lifestyle..

However if Tim Witherspoon hadn't bothered training he would still have beaten a David Bey tribute act..

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Wed 05 Jun 2019, 2:49 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Herman Jaeger wrote:Haha Joshua to beat Louis that’s a good one

https://youtu.be/kDx2k7BEIoE

https://youtu.be/E-4DMPM2lns

https://youtu.be/eofMiO7nvKc

Joshua to beat Foreman that’s even funnier. And can you imagine Ruiz beating Frazier?

Why couldn't Joshua beat Louis ???...Louis was barely above Cruiser and was chinny...









https://www.boxingoverbroadway.com/could-joe-louis-beat-todays-big-heavyweights-he-sure-could/

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Wed 05 Jun 2019, 2:55 pm

‘I’d expect Louis to utilise his superior mobility and greater hand speed’

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Post by Herman Jaeger on Wed 05 Jun 2019, 3:46 pm

https://youtu.be/GjbTZTcjWaU

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 05 Jun 2019, 3:56 pm

He would have to get in range to hit Joshua...

As a 170 pound super middle had him staggering..

I imagine he gets caught eventually..

After all Galento hit him often enough.

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Post by eirebilly on Wed 12 Jun 2019, 9:45 am

So Fury states that Joshua is done... Big call that from him.
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