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Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

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Post by McLaren Fri May 31, 2019 2:39 pm

First topic message reminder :

Kwini

It amazes me that a professional footballer can end up one footed. Just practice with your weak foot every day.

I remember spending a summer playing with only my left foot in the garden. Came back next season two footed.
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Post by McLaren Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:55 pm

Super

You never seem that interested in brexit being overturned?
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Post by super_realist Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:59 pm

McLaren wrote:Super

You never seem that interested in brexit being overturned?

Are you trying to infer I've changed my mind Mac? The truth is I no longer really care. I'm sick of hearing about it, I'm sick of the moaning on both sides of the argument.

I cannot see how or why it should be over-turned, so why would I bother worrying about it? There's nothing I or anyone on here can do about it now. There isn't going to be a second referendum, there isn't going to be a "people's vote" on the deal so what's the point?


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Post by dynamark Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:29 pm

We are missing Digs at present because he would be exploding about now .
A bit like Sean Dyche at the weekend when his second goal was disallowed .

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Post by navyblueshorts Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:44 am

McLaren wrote:Super

You never seem that interested in brexit being overturned?
How can it be overturned? It's not even been enacted yet, and it has to be I'm afraid, in whatever form.
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Post by dynamark Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:00 pm

I'm advised that a referendum is 'guidance' to parliament but article 50 has been triggered
so we should at some point be out the door .However I'm also sure that there is probably a way of revoking that .
Ive had word on Digs hes glued to an underground train currently getting dizzy on the circle line .

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Post by JAS Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:35 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Be_the_ball wrote:Folks, genuine question. Does anyone actually know what Labour's position is on Brexit?
No, and therein lies a huge problem. Opposition? My arse. Only by definition and convention.

No and as someone who thinks another few years of post Brexit right wing neoliberal conservatism will hurt probably the poorest 80% in society I find that extremely frustrating.

Brexit opens up an extremely complex variety of scenarios. In terms of how the economy will perform, the value of the pound, our ability to trade and with whom, the mechanics of exactly how we extricate ourselves from current arrangements, working directives, immigration, defence etc. After 3 years of government negotiations, most of those things are no clearer and the goalposts in terms of the demographics are changing. They’ll have looked at the Greek experience and how the EU will seek to crush a radical Socialist agenda.

Labours main reason to exist is supposedly to look after the best interests of ordinary working people. They have a leader who was historically a Bennite anti federalist (scour YouTube for Tony Benns rant about the EU), a significant portion of their MPs and supporters however are remainers and a proportion of MPs are in strong leave voting seats. They’ve also embarked on a change from being neoliberal consensus (Blairite) to a more radical Socialist, all of which makes for a very broad church which is proving difficult to hold together never mind form and espouse coherent policy. They are therefore stuck in the machinations of what could be best for the majority (and taking the leave voting constituencies into consideration its a very dangerous line for politicians to trot out “we know you think you want this but we know better” - That can be voter alienation personified. So basically they are trying hard to do the right thing but right now clearly defining the right thing is damn hard so I think they are stuck until Brexit or the after effects of it unfold a bit more. That I suspect will spell the end of Corbyn. I just hope they don’t lurch too far back to the neoliberal consensual right and abandon a radical agenda because one is really really needed.

The Lib Dem’s and the Tories have managed to jump to a binary conclusion and take a position and therefore “look” decisive, the reality is as Brexit unfolds they’ll be exposed as not having a clue either but one of them will be in power (99% certain it’ll be the Tories).


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Post by super_realist Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:05 pm

Corbyn is already finished JAS. Virtually no one wants a Socialist government.
Labour's best hope is to return to centre left and get a new leader. I'm not against a Labour government, but I am against one in its current form. Get rid of Corbyn, McDonnel, Williamson and Abbot and they might become a viable opposition.

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Post by McLaren Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:15 pm

Navy

Don't fall into the trap of thinking a democratic decision is static. Further votes overturning previous decions is how the system works. Thankfully our political system is not as dogmatic as religion.
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Post by super_realist Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:23 pm

McLaren wrote:Navy

Don't fall into the trap of thinking a democratic decision is static. Further votes overturning previous decions is how the system works. Thankfully our political system is not as dogmatic as religion.

When has anything like this ever been overturned? Got any examples?

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Post by McLaren Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:36 pm

Super

The obvious answer is the decision to join the common market. As it stands in theory the decision to be part of the EU has been reversed.
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Post by McLaren Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:38 pm

On other scales think about equal rights legislation or even changing the party in power. Really anything changed by government.
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Post by super_realist Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:39 pm

McLaren wrote:Super

The obvious answer is the decision to join the common market. As it stands in theory the decision to be part of the EU has been reversed.

That's not an example of a democratic decision being reversed Mac
Can't you do any better than that? I'm thinking specifically about the result of a referendum being overturned very close to the referendum being held, I'm not talking about the natural voting out of a government in a GE or a new referendum which took place 45 years after the UK first joined the EU.

There's no prior history of anything as big as Brexit being overturned, why would it happen now?


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Post by Be_the_ball Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:40 pm

JAS the problem is not that Corbyn is too far to the left, the problem is it's too easy to paint him as such. If Labour want to get into Govt, they will as Super says have to move back to center left imo with a David Milliband perhaps. What the Tories are lining up will be at least very damaging to the average person in the UK. The things they fought hardest for in this new agreement are reductions in standards and employment law. You and Diggers are 100% right imo.

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Post by kwinigolfer Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:38 pm

super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Super

The obvious answer is the decision to join the common market. As it stands in theory the decision to be part of the EU has been reversed.

That's not an example of a democratic decision being reversed Mac
Can't you do any better than that? I'm thinking specifically about the result of a referendum being overturned very close to the referendum being held, I'm not talking about the natural voting out of a government in a GE or a new referendum which took place 45 years after the UK first joined the EU.

There's no prior history of anything as big as Brexit being overturned, why would it happen now?



On the other hand, super, would you not say that the Scottish referendum has not been betrayed? Not that the UK should be run from Edinburgh, but you can bet your b0ll0cks that if it was known in 2014 that Cameron and his d1ckhead sidekicks were going to opt for a referendum and not defend UK being in the EU, that Scots would have opted for some sort of independence. Wouldn't they?

Boris the Spider's vision of EU exit was never debated prior to 2016.

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Post by super_realist Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:06 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Super

The obvious answer is the decision to join the common market. As it stands in theory the decision to be part of the EU has been reversed.

That's not an example of a democratic decision being reversed Mac
Can't you do any better than that? I'm thinking specifically about the result of a referendum being overturned very close to the referendum being held, I'm not talking about the natural voting out of a government in a GE or a new referendum which took place 45 years after the UK first joined the EU.

There's no prior history of anything as big as Brexit being overturned, why would it happen now?



On the other hand, super, would you not say that the Scottish referendum has not been betrayed? Not that the UK should be run from Edinburgh, but you can bet your b0ll0cks that if it was known in 2014 that Cameron and his d1ckhead sidekicks were going to opt for a referendum and not defend UK being in the EU, that Scots would have opted for some sort of independence. Wouldn't they?

Boris the Spider's vision of EU exit was never debated prior to 2016.

Not at all Kwini. I've never heard a single person ever claim they voted for Scottish Independence because it would keep them in Europe. I think that's something they've only latched onto lately and are now blatantly lying about it.

The SNP still haven't made any sort of credible financial case for why Scotland would be better as an independent country and they've had plenty of time to do it. It all seems to be emotional appeal and xenophobic anti English diatribe.  All I ever hear is "we want to be in charge of our own affairs", which they wouldn't be if they stayed in Europe, at least in terms that  they would be no more independent than they are at present.
Scotland has 50% fewer people paying the top rate of tax than England, oil revenue is low, whisky exports are subject to US tariffs now, financial institutions have said before they'll bail out in the event of independence. Scotland's share of the UK national debt would be crippling. So where would the money come from to provide all these wonderful services promised by the SNP?


I see the Independence movement very much like the Leave campaign, but almost see the Independence campaign as worse because it's more hypocritical and has even worse arguments behind it. They claim that it shouldn't be easy to leave the EU, but it somehow should be a 5 minute job to leave the 300 year old Union, also why would the SNP be so in favour of independence, but want to be part of Europe?

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Post by kwinigolfer Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:25 pm

super_realist wrote:
kwinigolfer wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Super

The obvious answer is the decision to join the common market. As it stands in theory the decision to be part of the EU has been reversed.

That's not an example of a democratic decision being reversed Mac
Can't you do any better than that? I'm thinking specifically about the result of a referendum being overturned very close to the referendum being held, I'm not talking about the natural voting out of a government in a GE or a new referendum which took place 45 years after the UK first joined the EU.

There's no prior history of anything as big as Brexit being overturned, why would it happen now?



On the other hand, super, would you not say that the Scottish referendum has not been betrayed? Not that the UK should be run from Edinburgh, but you can bet your b0ll0cks that if it was known in 2014 that Cameron and his d1ckhead sidekicks were going to opt for a referendum and not defend UK being in the EU, that Scots would have opted for some sort of independence. Wouldn't they?

Boris the Spider's vision of EU exit was never debated prior to 2016.

Not at all Kwini. I've never heard a single person ever claim they voted for Scottish Independence because it would keep them in Europe. I think that's something they've only latched onto lately and are now blatantly lying about it.



That's not what I said; if divorce from Europe had been on the agenda in 2014, and given the way Scotland (and Norn Iron) voted in 2016 (let alone the way things have skewed since then), it would seem that Scots would surely have voted for independence in 2016 - regardless of whether or not it was in their self-interest to do so.

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Post by super_realist Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:30 pm

I'm not so sure, there's plenty of Scottish people from the "Rangers" or "1690" side of the fence who wouldn't vote for Independence. Probably the only thing they are useful for.

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Post by McLaren Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:03 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:


On the other hand, super, would you not say that the Scottish referendum has not been betrayed? Not that the UK should be run from Edinburgh, but you can bet your b0ll0cks that if it was known in 2014 that Cameron and his d1ckhead sidekicks were going to opt for a referendum and not defend UK being in the EU, that Scots would have opted for some sort of independence. Wouldn't they?

Boris the Spider's vision of EU exit was never debated prior to 2016.


Spot on Kwini, and I don't know who super has been talking to but I know many people who would have voted differently in 2014 had they known that English nationalism would have dragged Scotland out of the EU. Especially given the rhetoric at the time about Scottish independence putting Scotland's place in Europe in danger.

I voted against independence in 2014 but unless Brexit is reversed I will be voting for independence next time. I value being part of the EU more than being part of a isolated right wing Britain.
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Post by kwinigolfer Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:22 pm

"isolated right wing Britain" should read "isolated right wing England" . . . . . . . . ..

Geographically centralised cabals are a threat to democracy wherever they occur - Major inherited a cabinet from Thatcher entirely chosen from MP's from constituencies within 100 miles of Londinium.

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Post by navyblueshorts Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:52 pm

McLaren wrote:Navy

Don't fall into the trap of thinking a democratic decision is static. Further votes overturning previous decions is how the system works. Thankfully our political system is not as dogmatic as religion.
Wrong. Brexit has to be enacted; good or bad. By all means have another plebiscite later, to reapply to join EU again. Can argue the toss by all means, but it has to be taken to its conclusion I'm afraid. Shame more people don't understand that.
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Post by navyblueshorts Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:54 pm

McLaren wrote:On other scales think about equal rights legislation or even changing the party in power. Really anything changed by government.
The clue's in what you say, above. Changing the party in power. In other words, enacting one outcome and then subsequently making a change. Not reversing a decision before it's enacted.
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Post by navyblueshorts Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:55 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Super

The obvious answer is the decision to join the common market. As it stands in theory the decision to be part of the EU has been reversed.

That's not an example of a democratic decision being reversed Mac
Can't you do any better than that? I'm thinking specifically about the result of a referendum being overturned very close to the referendum being held, I'm not talking about the natural voting out of a government in a GE or a new referendum which took place 45 years after the UK first joined the EU.

There's no prior history of anything as big as Brexit being overturned, why would it happen now?



On the other hand, super, would you not say that the Scottish referendum has not been betrayed? Not that the UK should be run from Edinburgh, but you can bet your b0ll0cks that if it was known in 2014 that Cameron and his d1ckhead sidekicks were going to opt for a referendum and not defend UK being in the EU, that Scots would have opted for some sort of independence. Wouldn't they?

Boris the Spider's vision of EU exit was never debated prior to 2016.
Scotland can sod off. And Wales, And N.I.
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Post by navyblueshorts Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:56 pm

https://unbound.com/books/brexit/

That is all.
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Post by kwinigolfer Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:36 pm

navy,
How do you feel about the IOW?

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Post by McLaren Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:02 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
Scotland can sod off. And Wales, And N.I.

NI and Scotland might take you up on that.
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Post by super_realist Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:54 am

McLaren wrote:
kwinigolfer wrote:


On the other hand, super, would you not say that the Scottish referendum has not been betrayed? Not that the UK should be run from Edinburgh, but you can bet your b0ll0cks that if it was known in 2014 that Cameron and his d1ckhead sidekicks were going to opt for a referendum and not defend UK being in the EU, that Scots would have opted for some sort of independence. Wouldn't they?

Boris the Spider's vision of EU exit was never debated prior to 2016.


Spot on Kwini, and I don't know who super has been talking to but I know many people who would have voted differently in 2014 had they known that English nationalism would have dragged Scotland out of the EU.  Especially given the rhetoric at the time about Scottish independence putting Scotland's place in Europe in danger.

I voted against independence in 2014 but unless Brexit is reversed I will be voting for independence next time. I value being part of the EU more than being part of a isolated right wing Britain.

Mac, voting for Brexit doesn't make you right wing or a nationalist that's as bad as saying that all leavers are left wing trots. I thought you were very careful not to make such intolerant and inaccurate statements? Have you seen how many of the Labour party voted Leave? Are they right wingers? How about the traditionally left wing regions of the UK that voted leave?

Why would Europe admit a leaching country with very little income like Scotland to the EU? What possible benefit would Scotland bring to the EU? Would you really want to be governed by a pathetic nationalist party like the  SNP? Maybe you would because you're a peasant. The irony of saying that you don't like English nationalism, but are happy to live under a demonstrably anti English Scottish nationalist government. How do you square that circle? You don't really care so long as you can still get the bus to Europe without interference?

I already pay 2k more a year in tax to live in Scotland than if I lived anywhere else in the UK. I would imagine in an independent Scotland that's only going to go up considering the Barnett shortfall, highest national debt in Europe and the proposals of SNP to massively improve public services using Mcdonnell type economic models.  Why would people who pay 40% and up want to remain in Scotland if it's going to cost them a fortune, whilst being governed by swivel eyed knuckle draggers like Nicola Sturgeon and Ian Blackford.

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Post by JAS Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:29 am

super_realist wrote:Corbyn is already finished JAS. Virtually no one wants a Socialist government.
Labour's best hope is to return to centre left and get a new leader. I'm not against a Labour government, but I am against one in its current form. Get rid of Corbyn, McDonnel, Williamson and Abbot and they might become a viable opposition.

Lol, the way you say “Get rid of Corbyn, McDonnel etc” makes it sound like you think I can make that happen, I can’t :-p I’d love to see Abbot sidelined as she is a complete and utter electoral liability. I do think the time has also come for Corbyn to concede that he himself is not electable in a PM capacity (that’s not to say I don’t he’d do a good job that’s an admission that I realise I’m in a minority.

The country will STILL not go for a radical Socialist agenda though, what you call moving back to the centre ground isn’t the centre ground, it’s the right. Blair wasn’t a centrist he was a Tory with a red tie who tickled the edges of Socialism but in reality, a PM who introduced part privatisation of the Health service and waded into an unwinnable war in the desert with his transatlantic neoliberal counterpart is no socialist or even centrist.

We’ve basically therefore had 40 years of rampant capitalism watching greed and income inequality grow to unacceptable levels. After all supposed strife of the 70s Government spent the 80s crushing organised labour, with unions power castrated capital was able to assert itself as it pleased in the following decades, it also happened to coincide with a big move to globalisation. So as capital globalised it was able to exploit labour even more, the masses were fed the illusion of trickledown economics although it wasn’t wealth that trickled down it was the illusion of wealth ie credit (or debt -depending on which side of the balance sheet you see it from).
Of course it all went pop but capital by that time had such a total grip of the argument that it has managed to wade on another 11 years despite being broken. The really frustrating thing is it’s going to continue to do so, people don’t want a socialist government now, give Johnson 10-15 years in power and in 15 years time we’ll be begging for one from the food banks...if we still have a vote.

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Post by navyblueshorts Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:02 am

kwinigolfer wrote:navy,
How do you feel about the IOW?
IOW?
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Post by navyblueshorts Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:02 am

McLaren wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Scotland can sod off. And Wales, And N.I.

NI and Scotland might take you up on that.
Good.
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Post by super_realist Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:10 am

JAS wrote:
super_realist wrote:Corbyn is already finished JAS. Virtually no one wants a Socialist government.
Labour's best hope is to return to centre left and get a new leader. I'm not against a Labour government, but I am against one in its current form. Get rid of Corbyn, McDonnel, Williamson and Abbot and they might become a viable opposition.

Lol, the way you say “Get rid of Corbyn, McDonnel etc” makes it sound like you think I can make that happen, I can’t :-p I’d love to see Abbot sidelined as she is a complete and utter electoral liability. I do think the time has also come for Corbyn to concede that he himself is not electable in a PM capacity (that’s not to say I don’t he’d do a good job that’s an admission that I realise I’m in a minority.

The country will STILL not go for a radical Socialist agenda though, what you call moving back to the centre ground isn’t the centre ground, it’s the right. Blair wasn’t a centrist he was a Tory with a red tie who tickled the edges of Socialism but in reality, a PM who introduced part privatisation of the Health service and waded into an unwinnable war in the desert with his transatlantic neoliberal counterpart is no socialist or even centrist.

We’ve basically therefore had 40 years of rampant capitalism watching greed and  income inequality grow to unacceptable levels. After all supposed strife of the 70s Government spent the 80s crushing organised labour, with unions power castrated capital was able to assert itself as it pleased in the following decades, it also happened to coincide with a big move to globalisation. So as capital globalised it was able to exploit labour even more, the masses were fed the illusion of trickledown economics although it wasn’t wealth that trickled down it was the illusion of wealth ie credit (or debt -depending on which side of the balance sheet you see it from).
Of course it all went pop but capital by that time had such a total grip of the argument that it has managed to wade on another 11 years despite being broken. The really frustrating thing is it’s going to continue to do so, people don’t want a socialist government now, give Johnson 10-15 years in power and in 15 years time we’ll be begging for one from the food banks...if we still have a vote.

I didn't mean that YOU should get rid of Corbyn, I meant "you" as in members of the Labour Party. Surely they can see that even if they like Corbyn (and I'm not sure how anyone could) , that a Socialist government has no chance of election? Have you not seen McDonnels unaffordable plans for returning many private sector firms to the public, his lunatic plans to get rid of private schools? Labour needs a move to the centre, but that doesn't mean it has to move over the line.
By the way, what do you propose instead of capitalism?
Someone once said it was the worst system....except for all the others.

Why will we be in food banks in 15 years? Sounds like the sort of sensationalist predictions from the death cult extinction rebellion.

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Post by JAS Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:13 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
McLaren wrote:Navy

Don't fall into the trap of thinking a democratic decision is static. Further votes overturning previous decions is how the system works. Thankfully our political system is not as dogmatic as religion.
Wrong. Brexit has to be enacted; good or bad. By all means have another plebiscite later, to reapply to join EU again. Can argue the toss by all means, but it has to be taken to its conclusion I'm afraid. Shame more people don't understand that.

Hang on a minute, if we’re looking for precedents, didn’t Ireland once vote NOT to accept the Lisbon Treaty but were encouraged to vote again to get the correct answer? They seem to be doing ok now, democracy didn’t fall apart, there weren’t riots on the streets?

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Post by navyblueshorts Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:26 am

JAS wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
McLaren wrote:Navy

Don't fall into the trap of thinking a democratic decision is static. Further votes overturning previous decions is how the system works. Thankfully our political system is not as dogmatic as religion.
Wrong. Brexit has to be enacted; good or bad. By all means have another plebiscite later, to reapply to join EU again. Can argue the toss by all means, but it has to be taken to its conclusion I'm afraid. Shame more people don't understand that.

Hang on a minute, if we’re looking for precedents, didn’t Ireland once vote NOT to accept the Lisbon Treaty but were  encouraged to vote again to get the correct answer? They seem to be doing ok now, democracy didn’t fall apart, there weren’t riots on the streets?
Yep, but it was wrong to do so as I seem to recall almost everyone saying so at the time. The utter hypocrisy of those advocating this when, had the boot been on the other foot, they'd be jumping up and down shouting "Respect our vote!" is quite funny really.
It may happen here, but it's wrong. To do so would poison our political scene for years and years, beyond that which it already is - people will only accept that Brexit is/was damaging if they live it. We made our bed, we lie in it and maybe plead to return at a later date.
Also, the way the EU behaved over Lisbon is precisely why Brexiteers are banging on about lack of democracy and 'taking back control' etc. They're partly to blame for this.
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Post by McLaren Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:04 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
McLaren wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Scotland can sod off. And Wales, And N.I.

NI and Scotland might take you up on that.
Good.

I sort of assumed you were kidding with the first comment but you actually seem to have an issue with NI and Scotland. What's your beef?
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Post by McLaren Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:28 pm

WTF BBC News - Essex Police: 39 people found dead in lorry container
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-50150070

Actual horror story.
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Post by JAS Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:17 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
JAS wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
McLaren wrote:Navy

Don't fall into the trap of thinking a democratic decision is static. Further votes overturning previous decions is how the system works. Thankfully our political system is not as dogmatic as religion.
Wrong. Brexit has to be enacted; good or bad. By all means have another plebiscite later, to reapply to join EU again. Can argue the toss by all means, but it has to be taken to its conclusion I'm afraid. Shame more people don't understand that.

Hang on a minute, if we’re looking for precedents, didn’t Ireland once vote NOT to accept the Lisbon Treaty but were  encouraged to vote again to get the correct answer? They seem to be doing ok now, democracy didn’t fall apart, there weren’t riots on the streets?
Yep, but it was wrong to do so as I seem to recall almost everyone saying so at the time. The utter hypocrisy of those advocating this when, had the boot been on the other foot, they'd be jumping up and down shouting "Respect our vote!" is quite funny really.
It may happen here, but it's wrong. To do so would poison our political scene for years and years, beyond that which it already is - people will only accept that Brexit is/was damaging if they live it. We made our bed, we lie in it and maybe plead to return at a later date.
Also, the way the EU behaved over Lisbon is precisely why Brexiteers are banging on about lack of democracy and 'taking back control' etc. They're partly to blame for this.

Yes it was wrong then and yes it’s wrong for remain here to try and do the same thing but since when was politics ever that altruistic, it’s a murky mess that makes mistakes. I also think our political scene is already very poisoned Navy.
I get what you’re saying about people having to live it to understand what fools they’ve been but at the end of the day why are we ok with dropping the living standards of millions for years to come so that we can cling on to the belief that we’ve democratically “done the right thing” when our democratically elected representatives disgrace democracy on such a regular basis.

Also on the last bit, yes the EUs behaviour over the acceptance of the LT was deplorable. One does not have to be a rampant Brexiteer to see that.

Jeez, just seen the truck horror news...wtaf??

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Post by JAS Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:21 pm

super_realist wrote:
JAS wrote:
super_realist wrote:Corbyn is already finished JAS. Virtually no one wants a Socialist government.
Labour's best hope is to return to centre left and get a new leader. I'm not against a Labour government, but I am against one in its current form. Get rid of Corbyn, McDonnel, Williamson and Abbot and they might become a viable opposition.

Lol, the way you say “Get rid of Corbyn, McDonnel etc” makes it sound like you think I can make that happen, I can’t :-p I’d love to see Abbot sidelined as she is a complete and utter electoral liability. I do think the time has also come for Corbyn to concede that he himself is not electable in a PM capacity (that’s not to say I don’t he’d do a good job that’s an admission that I realise I’m in a minority.

The country will STILL not go for a radical Socialist agenda though, what you call moving back to the centre ground isn’t the centre ground, it’s the right. Blair wasn’t a centrist he was a Tory with a red tie who tickled the edges of Socialism but in reality, a PM who introduced part privatisation of the Health service and waded into an unwinnable war in the desert with his transatlantic neoliberal counterpart is no socialist or even centrist.

We’ve basically therefore had 40 years of rampant capitalism watching greed and  income inequality grow to unacceptable levels. After all supposed strife of the 70s Government spent the 80s crushing organised labour, with unions power castrated capital was able to assert itself as it pleased in the following decades, it also happened to coincide with a big move to globalisation. So as capital globalised it was able to exploit labour even more, the masses were fed the illusion of trickledown economics although it wasn’t wealth that trickled down it was the illusion of wealth ie credit (or debt -depending on which side of the balance sheet you see it from).
Of course it all went pop but capital by that time had such a total grip of the argument that it has managed to wade on another 11 years despite being broken. The really frustrating thing is it’s going to continue to do so, people don’t want a socialist government now, give Johnson 10-15 years in power and in 15 years time we’ll be begging for one from the food banks...if we still have a vote.

I didn't mean that YOU should get rid of Corbyn, I meant "you" as in members of the Labour Party. Surely they can see that even if they like Corbyn (and I'm not sure how anyone could) , that a Socialist government has no chance of election? Have you not seen McDonnels unaffordable plans for returning many private sector firms to the public, his lunatic plans to get rid of private schools? Labour needs a move to the centre, but that doesn't mean it has to move over the line.
By the way, what do you propose instead of capitalism?
Someone once said it was the worst system....except for all the others.

Why will we be in food banks in 15 years? Sounds like the sort of sensationalist predictions from the death cult extinction rebellion.

I’m not a LP member either, tore up my card in 1999 and sent it back with a “nicely worded” diatribe about the implementation of IR35

With regard to Capitalism, a caring, socially responsible, meritocratic capitalism would almost be acceptable but that by some distance is NOT what we have nor are we getting any closer to it, we’re actually heading further the other way. Personally I think we need a strong dose of Socialism (not necessarily permanent) but long enough to arrest a global corporate greed culture and obviously it’s needed more than just here.

I thought my last comment was easily recognisable as a tongue in cheek caricature of the point I was making but you seem to have taken it literally

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Post by McLaren Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:54 pm

Does any modern mainstream form of socialism propose getting rid of capitalism? As jas points out most socialists just want to see capitalism regulated in such a way that is fairer for more people. Socialism is more about ensuring everyone has access to a decent quality of life rather than dogmatic principles like brining down capitalism, for that maybe check out communism.
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Post by kwinigolfer Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:23 pm

JAS's worst fears are already being manifested in wide swathes of the US - identify the poor and disadvantaged and make them poorer and more disadvantaged. Throw in thinly (sometimes) disguised ration of racism and it's a wonder we don't have a civil war.
There's far less special-interest-influenced gerrymandering (tho' that might not apply in NI) in the UK so marginally more democratic, but you can certainly see the seeds of a US-styled version of capitalism being sown.

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Post by Be_the_ball Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:32 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
JAS wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
McLaren wrote:Navy

Don't fall into the trap of thinking a democratic decision is static. Further votes overturning previous decsons is how the system works. Thankfully our political system is not as dogmatic as religion.
Wrong. Brexit has to be enacted; good or bad. By all means have another plebiscite later, to reapply to join EU again. Can argue the toss by all means, but it has to be taken to its conclusion I'm afraid. Shame more people don't understand that.

Hang on a minute, if we’re looking for precedents, didn’t Ireland once vote NOT to accept the Lisbon Treaty but were  encouraged to vote again to get the correct answer? They seem to be doing ok now, democracy didn’t fall apart, there weren’t riots on the streets?
Yep, but it was wrong to do so as I seem to recall almost everyone saying so at the time. The utter hypocrisy of those advocating this when, had the boot been on the other foot, they'd be jumping up and down shouting "Respect our vote!" is quite funny really.
It may happen here, but it's wrong. To do so would poison our political scene for years and years, beyond that which it already is - people will only accept that Brexit is/was damaging if they live it. We made our bed, we lie in it and maybe plead to return at a later date.
Also, the way the EU behaved over Lisbon is precisely why Brexiteers are banging on about lack of democracy and 'taking back control' etc. They're partly to blame for this.

Just to clarify what happened in Ireland re the Lisbon treaty, and how reality is very different to the perception that is so prevalent in the UK.

The Lisbon treaty was voted against in Ireland because anti EU parties lead a campaign of disinformation and lies (oh the irony). The principle lie was an introduction of an EU army, more lies included tax, employment law including reducing the minimum wage etc. The EU then clarified and gave legal assurances on the Lisbon treaty and that was then put to a second referendum. This is never acknowledged in the UK media or in discussions on QT etc. This is always brought up as an example of how the EU are antidemocratic and how the "fick paddies" were "forced" to vote again, Nigel Farage spouts this on a regular basis without any challenge and it has now become "fact".

See articles below that will clarify. Sadly none could be found in The Sun, the Daily Mail or any other tabloid rag (surprisingly?).

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/declaration-affirms-that-ireland-is-not-bound-by-mutual-defence-commitment-1.788172

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/lisbon-treaty-assurances-are-binding-424995.html?utm_source=link&utm_medium=click&utm_campaign=nextandprev

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jun/19/lisbon-treaty-ireland-eu-law

And before someone posts a comment from Guy Verhofstadt, thats just his opinion. Every EU country has a veto on the formation of an EU army.

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Post by navyblueshorts Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:04 pm

McLaren wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
McLaren wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Scotland can sod off. And Wales, And N.I.

NI and Scotland might take you up on that.
Good.

I sort of assumed you were kidding with the first comment but you actually seem to have an issue with NI and Scotland. What's your beef?
Take your pick. I have nothing personal really. However, Brexit is going to break up the U.K. anyway, Scotland do nothing but whine, N.I. will re-join Eire and Plaid were recently banging on about how badly done by Wales has been.
Time for Scotland, Wales and N.I. to stand on their own, independent, feet. Time to take responsibility, raise their own taxes to spend on their priorities and time to whine at their own politicians, instead of blame Westminster ad nauseam.
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Post by navyblueshorts Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:10 pm

Be_the_ball wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
JAS wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
McLaren wrote:Navy

Don't fall into the trap of thinking a democratic decision is static. Further votes overturning previous decsons is how the system works. Thankfully our political system is not as dogmatic as religion.
Wrong. Brexit has to be enacted; good or bad. By all means have another plebiscite later, to reapply to join EU again. Can argue the toss by all means, but it has to be taken to its conclusion I'm afraid. Shame more people don't understand that.

Hang on a minute, if we’re looking for precedents, didn’t Ireland once vote NOT to accept the Lisbon Treaty but were  encouraged to vote again to get the correct answer? They seem to be doing ok now, democracy didn’t fall apart, there weren’t riots on the streets?
Yep, but it was wrong to do so as I seem to recall almost everyone saying so at the time. The utter hypocrisy of those advocating this when, had the boot been on the other foot, they'd be jumping up and down shouting "Respect our vote!" is quite funny really.
It may happen here, but it's wrong. To do so would poison our political scene for years and years, beyond that which it already is - people will only accept that Brexit is/was damaging if they live it. We made our bed, we lie in it and maybe plead to return at a later date.
Also, the way the EU behaved over Lisbon is precisely why Brexiteers are banging on about lack of democracy and 'taking back control' etc. They're partly to blame for this.

Just to clarify what happened in Ireland re the Lisbon treaty, and how reality is very different to the perception that is so prevalent in the UK.

The Lisbon treaty was voted against in Ireland because anti EU parties lead a campaign of disinformation and lies (oh the irony). The principle lie was an introduction of an EU army, more lies included tax, employment law including reducing the minimum wage etc. The EU then clarified and gave legal assurances on the Lisbon treaty and that was then put to a second referendum. This is never acknowledged in the UK media or in discussions on QT etc. This is always brought up as an example of how the EU are antidemocratic and how the "fick paddies" were "forced" to vote again, Nigel Farage spouts this on a regular basis without any challenge and it has now become "fact".

See articles below that will clarify. Sadly none could be found in The Sun, the Daily Mail or any other tabloid rag (surprisingly?).

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/declaration-affirms-that-ireland-is-not-bound-by-mutual-defence-commitment-1.788172

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/lisbon-treaty-assurances-are-binding-424995.html?utm_source=link&utm_medium=click&utm_campaign=nextandprev

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jun/19/lisbon-treaty-ireland-eu-law

And before someone posts a comment from Guy Verhofstadt, thats just his opinion. Every EU country has a veto on the formation of an EU army.
Cool. Ta for that OK. Just goes to show how powerful having the correct info is and how easily it can be manipulated.
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Post by kwinigolfer Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:37 pm

McLaren wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
McLaren wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Scotland can sod off. And Wales, And N.I.

NI and Scotland might take you up on that.
Good.

I sort of assumed you were kidding with the first comment but you actually seem to have an issue with NI and Scotland. What's your beef?


It seems NI, S & W have all been dismissed, just like that. Wonder about "pixie"land? Still hope the IOW survives this purge but they'd possibly be well off independent with the others. Wonder how Roller feels in the IOM?

Meanwhile, at a navy stroke, we've lost six golfing Majors, three tennis Grand Slams, gawd knows how many Olympic medals, etc, etc.

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Post by navyblueshorts Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:55 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:
McLaren wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
McLaren wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Scotland can sod off. And Wales, And N.I.

NI and Scotland might take you up on that.
Good.

I sort of assumed you were kidding with the first comment but you actually seem to have an issue with NI and Scotland. What's your beef?


It seems NI, S & W have all been dismissed, just like that. Wonder about "pixie"land? Still hope the IOW survives this purge but they'd possibly be well off independent with the others. Wonder how Roller feels in the IOM?

Meanwhile, at a navy stroke, we've lost six golfing Majors, three tennis Grand Slams, gawd knows how many Olympic medals, etc, etc.
🤷 That's the way it goes. I didn't say it wasn't without losses (NATO, UN Security Council etc). I didn't say it was necessarily a good thing - I think the U.K. is overall, a positive. Simply utterly fed up with whining from Scotland, Wales and N.I. and I think the U.K. is doomed as an entity anyway; grass is always greener and all that, at least that's what, increasingly, Scottish and Welsh nationalists think. They seem to be gaining traction as well. May as well offer them the independence they profess to want and they can go away.

Britain/U.K. is a former empire that doesn't realise it's history yet; just going through its death throes at the moment. Time to grow up and make a way in the world as independent nations that were once something called the United Kingdom or Great Britain.

Incidentally, don't think you've defined 'IOW' or 'IOM' - I've no idea what you mean by them. Care to clarify?
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Post by Be_the_ball Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:09 pm

Isle of Wight, Isle of Man   thumbsup

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Post by Be_the_ball Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:10 pm

Isle of Wight, Isle of Man   thumbsup

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Post by kwinigolfer Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:25 pm

Be_the_ball wrote:Isle of Wight, Isle of Man   thumbsup

OK OK guinness guinness

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Post by JAS Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:09 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Cool. Ta for that OK. Just goes to show how powerful having the correct info is and how easily it can be manipulated.

Yup, which is a lot to do with why I get so agitated by the right wing media, clearly the Guardian and the Mirror also spout pish on occasion but the disinformation spun by the right wing Tory rags is predominantly inaccurate and frequently slanderous drivel but millions swallow it as the truth.

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Post by super_realist Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:49 am

McLaren wrote:Does any modern mainstream form of socialism propose getting rid of capitalism? As jas points out most socialists just want to see capitalism regulated in such a way that is fairer for more people. Socialism is more about ensuring everyone has access to a decent quality of life rather than dogmatic principles like brining down capitalism, for that maybe check out communism.

Have you seen Corbyn's and McDonnells plans? They might not actually go so far to remove Capitalism, but it's as near to Marxism as you're going to get.

You're also the one who wants to live under an SNP governed Independent Scotland Mac. How good do you think that will be?

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Post by super_realist Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:53 am

Paul Hollywood facing criticism for calling a desert "diabetes" on a plate. How pathetic are these peoples lives that they would be "offended" by that?

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Post by navyblueshorts Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:31 am

Be_the_ball wrote:Isle of Wight, Isle of Man   thumbsup
Ahhh. Ta.
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