Ireland WC

First topic message reminder :

Bit early i know.
Will update squads etc once they are announced.
And add the fixtures when I get a spare 10 mins.

Will Addison has been called up to the training squad

For Ireland, the only fall back position going into the RWC is that Best, Sexton, POM and RK aren't making another RWC.  Murray is 30 so he could reach potentially.  They don't get another chance and have disappointment in their memories from previous outings. I don't expect the performances to be pretty, but those elder statesmen are stubborn enough to get a result in spite of it.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:For Ireland, the only fall back position going into the RWC is that Best, Sexton, POM and RK aren't making another RWC.  Murray is 30 so he could reach potentially.  They don't get another chance and have disappointment in their memories from previous outings. I don't expect the performances to be pretty, but those elder statesmen are stubborn enough to get a result in spite of it.

There is still a small chance some of them might not make this RWC.

Joe Schmidt was very weird about Best.  Didn't exactly fully endorse him continuing as Captain or being selected for the WC....said something about Best having to deal with the "internal noise [ in his own head presumably].... because that is where the decisions are going to be made"

Hmmmm..... almost throwing the pressure onto Best to decide that he might not be able to make it for one last crusade.  Now Joe sometimes does peculiar things with the English language and you really have to concentrate to fully understand his intent, but for me, he sounded quite aloof as if beginning to distance himself from his Captain, a gap that might eventually see Rory miss the plane.

Knowing Schmidt if he wanted to drop Best he would just drop him. I dont think he would beat about the bush about it.

Don't like to kick a man when he's down and Rory could still be capable of one last big tournament but I thought we should have started seriously investing in Scannell around 2 years ago. There aren't many 37 year olds playing at this level and it was always going to be a huge ask.

Apparently this is likely to be the Ireland team?

https://extra.ie/2019/08/27/sport/rugby/ireland-xv-wales-warm-up

“...while Tommy O’Donnell could take his Munster team-mate Peter O’Mahony’s spot on the other side, after O’Mahony’s anonymous display against the English.”

Again?

mikey_dragon wrote:“...while Tommy O’Donnell could take his Munster team-mate Peter O’Mahony’s spot on the other side, after O’Mahony’s anonymous display against the English.”

Again?

It wasn’t just POM last week. Most of the pack were anonymous after about half an hour.

I hope that Schmidt selects that pack again giving them a chance to redeem themselves, and if he does I hope they play their best. You get nothing from giving another team a lashing. You get a hell of a lot when you’re tested.

You are a very prolific poster lately Maes, fair play. I think the whole back row for Ireland has been poor. We badly miss Leavy and maybe even Heaslip. Id love to see Stander play 6 and Conan take the 8 position. Vdf can stay but needs to improve too.

Collapse2005 wrote:You are a very prolific poster lately Maes, fair play. I think the whole back row for Ireland has been poor. We badly miss Leavy and maybe even Heaslip. Id love to see Stander play 6 and Conan take the 8 position.

Got a cold mate. A bit bored to be honest ya ha ha

Collapse2005 wrote:You are a very prolific poster lately Maes, fair play. I think the whole back row for Ireland has been poor. We badly miss Leavy and maybe even Heaslip. Id love to see Stander play 6 and Conan take the 8 position.

I think Conan at 8 is and exciting prospect.

maestegmafia wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:You are a very prolific poster lately Maes, fair play. I think the whole back row for Ireland has been poor. We badly miss Leavy and maybe even Heaslip. Id love to see Stander play 6 and Conan take the 8 position.

Got a cold mate. A bit bored to be honest ya ha ha

Nothing more annoying than a bit of man flu in the summer. I have a sore throat myself which is depressing because I havent been able to go to the gym in a few days now.

Collapse2005 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:You are a very prolific poster lately Maes, fair play. I think the whole back row for Ireland has been poor. We badly miss Leavy and maybe even Heaslip. Id love to see Stander play 6 and Conan take the 8 position.

Got a cold mate. A bit bored to be honest ya ha ha

Nothing more annoying than a bit of man flu in the summer. I have a sore throat myself which is depressing because I havent been able to go to the gym in a few days now.

Aye something about at the moment. I thought it was hay fever but no..!

So what do you lads think of the teams suggested in the press

The Ireland team isn't too bad. A bit weird playing O'Donnell at 6.

SecretFly wrote:Joe Schmidt was very weird about Best.  Didn't exactly fully endorse him continuing as Captain or being selected for the WC....said something about Best having to deal with the "internal noise [ in his own head presumably].... because that is where the decisions are going to be made"

I didn't interpret it that way fly, what he meant that they aren't concerned with criticism of Best from outside the camp and that there is no "internal noise" within the camp that he needs to be dropped.

Schmidt did add that he hadn't picked the captain yet, so i guess that leaves the door open for Scannell to put pressure for a starting spot.

Personally I didn't see the game so can't comment on Bests form. I think he hasn't had a great second half of the season form wise but was going well prior to christmas. I think the criticism is a bit over the top.

For me the concern is that a number of our big names, including but not exclusive to Best, all seem to have lost form since the start of the year. Ryan is probably the only exception where his level hasn't dropped off from 2018.

Then when you look outside that group, who is pushing their case and could make a difference- Farrell, Conan, Ruddock and Beirne maybe.

I think it is probably too late for knee jerk decisions. If Schmidt makes some shock calls around key players now it could instill a sense of panic that something really is wrong. The signs are he'll stick and give his key men every chance to find some form but time is running out for us....

Collapse2005 wrote:The Ireland team isn't too bad. A bit weird playing O'Donnell at 6.

Very, presumably to see POM at 7 but surely a missed opportunity to see Beirne at blindside?

Given the squad will be decided on Sunday this is either good news for Beirne (or Ruddock) or very bad...

rodders wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:The Ireland team isn't too bad. A bit weird playing O'Donnell at 6.

Very, presumably to see POM at 7 but surely a missed opportunity to see Beirne at blindside?

Given the squad will be decided on Sunday this is either good news for Beirne (or Ruddock) or very bad...

Yeah thats what I was thinking, why not just start Beirne in the backrow.

Collapse2005 wrote:

rodders wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:The Ireland team isn't too bad. A bit weird playing O'Donnell at 6.

Very, presumably to see POM at 7 but surely a missed opportunity to see Beirne at blindside?

Given the squad will be decided on Sunday this is either good news for Beirne (or Ruddock) or very bad...

Yeah thats what I was thinking, why not just start Beirne in the backrow.

Either he's done enough and will play the following week or he's been ditched. I guess it shows they are really considering O'Donnell ahead of Ruddock and Murphy.

Did Beirne get much time on Saturday?

mikey_dragon wrote:“...while Tommy O’Donnell could take his Munster team-mate Peter O’Mahony’s spot on the other side, after O’Mahony’s anonymous display against the English.”

Again?

POM was probably Ireland's best starting forward last week. Now I admit that is damning with faint praise but he perhaps gave a 6/10 performance. Stander was the truly anonymous one.

I honestly had no idea that Stander and Kleyn were playing until the commentator said their names late on in the second half. I was a big fan of Stander when he first came on the scene but he's been anonymous recently and Saturday reinforced that. Ireland needed a big, physical player like him to step up and lead by example, but he didn't. I really like Conan and from an English perspective, i'd have been more nervous seeing his name at 8 than Stander's.

Even though it is hard to take positives from a result like Saturday, I hope Irish supporters aren't too despondent. It was clearly two teams at very different ends of their world cup preparations and therefore difficult to compare performances. I expect Ireland to bounce back against Wales. For what is it worth, I thought Henderson was very good and Stockdale looked decent going forward.

Stockdale did expose big Joe's defence a couple of times, though the Irishman did rush up in defence too much to no avail.

But as with all these warm ups too much can be read into a single game and result.

bluestonevedder wrote: I was a big fan of Stander when he first came on the scene but he's been anonymous recently and Saturday reinforced that. Ireland needed a big, physical player like him to step up and lead by example, but he didn't. I really like Conan and from an English perspective, i'd have been more nervous seeing his name at 8 than Stander's.

I'm going to defend Stander here, I think part of the issue is he is the only carrier in Ireland's back row with O'Brien and Leavy out. That makes him too easy to defend. Probably he needs to adapt his game a bit to pass a bit more and attack space but he's being forced to run into brick walls.

Chris Farrell isn't a magic bullet solution but he would make a difference taking it up off first phase and allowing Stander to get a bit wider from the ruck.

Bringing in Conan at 8 and shifting O'Mahoney to 7 is looking more likely but then we lose speed to the breakdown without a genuine openside.

It seems like we are still having the same debates as we had under Kidney and that unfortunately after 6 years under Joe a lot of the fundamental weaknesses are still there in this team.

LondonTiger wrote:Stockdale did expose big Joe's defence a couple of times, though the Irishman did rush up in defence too much to no avail.

Looking at the analysis of the tries it looks like the damage was done inside and there is little he can do but shoot.

There is no doubt Stockdale's form has slipped a bit recently too but I think the endless criticism of his defense is way over the top.

bluestonevedder wrote:I honestly had no idea that Stander and Kleyn were playing until the commentator said their names late on in the second half. I was a big fan of Stander when he first came on the scene but he's been anonymous recently and Saturday reinforced that. Ireland needed a big, physical player like him to step up and lead by example, but he didn't. I really like Conan and from an English perspective, i'd have been more nervous seeing his name at 8 than Stander's.

Even though it is hard to take positives from a result like Saturday, I hope Irish supporters aren't too despondent. It was clearly two teams at very different ends of their world cup preparations and therefore difficult to compare performances. I expect Ireland to bounce back against Wales. For what is it worth, I thought Henderson was very good and Stockdale looked decent going forward.

Im not too despondent. It was a thrashing and no doubt England were way better but I reckon if it was a 6 nations game it would have been at the most a 21 point loss which is bad but fixable. I think the high score is in part also related to the fact that it is a warm up game, the players were sluggish, afraid of getting injured and not as motivated as they might normally be combine that with England being really good and Ireland being really crap a 50 point storm was the outcome.

England are better than Ireland right now but these things can change very quickly as history has confirmed fairly clearly. Henderson was very good in the loose but I think he was as much to blame for the poor lineout as Best in my view.

rodders wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Stockdale did expose big Joe's defence a couple of times, though the Irishman did rush up in defence too much to no avail.

Looking at the analysis of the tries it looks like the damage was done inside and there is little he can do but shoot.

There is no doubt Stockdale's form has slipped a bit recently too but I think the endless criticism of his defense is way over the top.

 I was thinking of Big Joe's first try and Daly's. It was not just Stockdale, though he did step in and rush, but an issue with the whole Irish alignment. These tries were scored on the outside (in the right corner for the attacking team) from first phase possession far too easily. 

I was not aware of any criticism of Stockdale's defence, his positioning was just something we noticed in the first half as we were looking straight down the pitch at him.

rodders wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote: I was a big fan of Stander when he first came on the scene but he's been anonymous recently and Saturday reinforced that. Ireland needed a big, physical player like him to step up and lead by example, but he didn't. I really like Conan and from an English perspective, i'd have been more nervous seeing his name at 8 than Stander's.

I'm going to defend Stander here, I think part of the issue is he is the only carrier in Ireland's back row with O'Brien and Leavy out. That makes him too easy to defend. Probably he needs to adapt his game a bit to pass a bit more and attack space but he's being forced to run into brick walls.

Chris Farrell isn't a magic bullet solution but he would make a difference taking it up off first phase and allowing Stander to get a bit wider from the ruck.

Bringing in Conan at 8 and shifting O'Mahoney to 7 is looking more likely but then we lose speed to the breakdown without a genuine openside.

It seems like we are still having the same debates as we had under Kidney and that unfortunately after 6 years under Joe a lot of the fundamental weaknesses are still there in this team.

Fair enough Rodders, it probably is a bit unfair to judge Stander on that performance given the lack of carriers.

Why would you move POM to 7? Couldn't you leave him at 6, Conan at 8, and then have JVdF at 7 still? Or O'Donnell?

Collapse2005 wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:I honestly had no idea that Stander and Kleyn were playing until the commentator said their names late on in the second half. I was a big fan of Stander when he first came on the scene but he's been anonymous recently and Saturday reinforced that. Ireland needed a big, physical player like him to step up and lead by example, but he didn't. I really like Conan and from an English perspective, i'd have been more nervous seeing his name at 8 than Stander's.

Even though it is hard to take positives from a result like Saturday, I hope Irish supporters aren't too despondent. It was clearly two teams at very different ends of their world cup preparations and therefore difficult to compare performances. I expect Ireland to bounce back against Wales. For what is it worth, I thought Henderson was very good and Stockdale looked decent going forward.

Im not too despondent. It was a thrashing and no doubt England were way better but I reckon if it was a 6 nations game it would have been at the most a 21 point loss which is bad but fixable. I think the high score is in part also related to the fact that it is a warm up game, the players were sluggish, afraid of getting injured and not as motivated as they might normally be.

England are better than Ireland right now but these things can change very quickly as history has confirmed fairly clearly. Henderson was very good in the loose but I think he was as much to blame for the poor lineout as Best in my view.

Totally agree. When there's nothing to play for it's easy to lose the motivation. That's the issue with these warm-ups.

bluestonevedder wrote:

rodders wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote: I was a big fan of Stander when he first came on the scene but he's been anonymous recently and Saturday reinforced that. Ireland needed a big, physical player like him to step up and lead by example, but he didn't. I really like Conan and from an English perspective, i'd have been more nervous seeing his name at 8 than Stander's.

I'm going to defend Stander here, I think part of the issue is he is the only carrier in Ireland's back row with O'Brien and Leavy out. That makes him too easy to defend. Probably he needs to adapt his game a bit to pass a bit more and attack space but he's being forced to run into brick walls.

Chris Farrell isn't a magic bullet solution but he would make a difference taking it up off first phase and allowing Stander to get a bit wider from the ruck.

Bringing in Conan at 8 and shifting O'Mahoney to 7 is looking more likely but then we lose speed to the breakdown without a genuine openside.

It seems like we are still having the same debates as we had under Kidney and that unfortunately after 6 years under Joe a lot of the fundamental weaknesses are still there in this team.

Fair enough Rodders, it probably is a bit unfair to judge Stander on that performance given the lack of carriers.

Why would you move POM to 7? Couldn't you leave him at 6, Conan at 8, and then have JVdF at 7 still? Or O'Donnell?

I was assuming Stander would move to 6 to accommodate Conan. That gives us the extra ball carrier.

bluestonevedder wrote:
Totally agree. When there's nothing to play for it's easy to lose the motivation. That's the issue with these warm-ups.

I really don't accept that as an excuse, look at the intensity in the Wales v England tests compared to Ireland against England. Wales really fronted up physically against the same England side.

There should be plenty of motivation for players to ensure they get on the plane and a bit of pride against a side that stuffed us at home in the 6N.

rodders wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

rodders wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote: I was a big fan of Stander when he first came on the scene but he's been anonymous recently and Saturday reinforced that. Ireland needed a big, physical player like him to step up and lead by example, but he didn't. I really like Conan and from an English perspective, i'd have been more nervous seeing his name at 8 than Stander's.

I'm going to defend Stander here, I think part of the issue is he is the only carrier in Ireland's back row with O'Brien and Leavy out. That makes him too easy to defend. Probably he needs to adapt his game a bit to pass a bit more and attack space but he's being forced to run into brick walls.

Chris Farrell isn't a magic bullet solution but he would make a difference taking it up off first phase and allowing Stander to get a bit wider from the ruck.

Bringing in Conan at 8 and shifting O'Mahoney to 7 is looking more likely but then we lose speed to the breakdown without a genuine openside.

It seems like we are still having the same debates as we had under Kidney and that unfortunately after 6 years under Joe a lot of the fundamental weaknesses are still there in this team.

Fair enough Rodders, it probably is a bit unfair to judge Stander on that performance given the lack of carriers.

Why would you move POM to 7? Couldn't you leave him at 6, Conan at 8, and then have JVdF at 7 still? Or O'Donnell?

I was assuming Stander would move to 6 to accommodate Conan. That gives us the extra ball carrier.

Is Ruddock in with a shout of getting a game to prove himself?

True Rodders but its never going to mean as much as the 6N.

bluestonevedder wrote:
Is Ruddock in with a shout of getting a game to prove himself?

Unless he's on the bench it doesn't look like it.

https://www.the42.ie/analysis-ireland-defence-england-2019-4782195-Aug2019/?utm_source=shortlink

For anyone who has not read this an analysis of Ireland's defence.

1. Dave Kilcoyne (Munster)
2. Rory Best (Ulster)
3. Tadhg Furlong (Leinster)

4. Devin Toner (Leinster)
5. James Ryan (Leinster)

6. Tadhg Beirne (Munster)
7. Jordi Murphy (Ulster)
8. Jack Conan (Leinster)

9. Kieran Marmion (Connacht)
10. Jack Carty (Connacht)

11. Jacob Stockdale (Ulster)/Dave Kearney (Leinster)
12. Robbie Henshaw (Leinster)
13. Chris Farrell (Munster)
14. Andrew Conway (Munster)

15. Will Addison (Ulster)

This is joe.ie team for Saturday.
I like the look of the back row.
And I really hope Addison shines

And this is the 42s

15. Will Addison
14. Andrew Conway
13. Chris Farrell
12. Bundee Aki
11. Jacob Stockdale
10. Jack Carty
9. Kieran Marmion

1. Dave Kilcoyne
2. Niall Scannell
3. John Ryan
4. Iain Henderson
5. James Ryan
6. Tadhg Beirne
7. Peter O’Mahony (captain)
8. Jack Conan

Hmm I think the Joe.ie would make more sense.

That’s three different teams from three different sources.

Someone’s got to be right..!

I'd say below will play anyway -

15. Will Addison
14.
13. Chris Farrell
12. Robbie Henshaw
11.
10. Jack Carty
9. Kieran Marmion

1. Dave Kilcoyne
2.
3. John Ryan
4. Devin Toner
5. James Ryan
6. Tadhg Beirne
7.
8. Jack Conan

Both sides are going to have a number of players all trying hard to get on the plane with little time to prove their worth.

Could be an exciting game

maestegmafia wrote:Both sides are going to have a number of players all trying hard to get on the plane with little time to prove their worth.

Could be an exciting game

Worrying thing about that is it could lead to injuries. I hope not. 

Other issue is that players can try to hard to shine individually rather than playing as a team.

LondonTiger wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Both sides are going to have a number of players all trying hard to get on the plane with little time to prove their worth.

Could be an exciting game

Worrying thing about that is it could lead to injuries. I hope not. 

Other issue is that players can try to hard to shine individually rather than playing as a team.

You can break you collar bone on the training pitch. If we shied away from the likelihood of injury where would the players get their physicality. It will be a bouncy game for sure. But no more than a regional derby or the opener against Georgia.

There are certainly no dirty buggers in the Irish team, thank god that’s not the way they play.

I hope it’s a decent contest. You get nothing from run away wins against light opponents.

It's difficult from an Irish point of view, there simply has to be a reaction after the public backlash to the England game.

Apparently planned media obligations were cancelled to do some extra training at the players behest.

However Wales will be looking to turn the screw and send Gats off with a big win. They have an away game to finish so will want the result here.

I really fear another comprehensive loss for us, maybe not as heavy as the England game but by few scores.

I actually think we will lose in Dublin and to Scotland too and maybe scrape out of the group in second.

That is best case I can for see right now and hopefully at that point we will have found some sort of form.

rodders wrote:It's difficult from an Irish point of view, there simply has to be a reaction after the public backlash to the England game.

Apparently planned media obligations were cancelled to do some extra training at the players behest.

However Wales will be looking to turn the screw and send Gats off with a big win. They have an away game to finish so will want the result here.

I really fear another comprehensive loss for us, maybe not as heavy as the England game but by few scores.

I actually think we will lose in Dublin and to Scotland too and maybe scrape out of the group in second.

That is best case I can for see right now and hopefully at that point we will have found some sort of form.

I think that's a bit pessimistic Rodders. Even if we aren't at our best we shouldn't lose to Scotland. I can see us losing to Wales on Saturday but if we do big deal, its unlikely we will face Wales in the RWC and if we do it wont be in Cardiff. Ill be disappointed if we lost to them at home.

Collapse2005 wrote:
I think that's a bit pessimistic Rodders. Even if we aren't at our best we shouldn't lose to Scotland. I can see us losing to Wales on Saturday but if we do big deal, its unlikely we will face Wales in the RWC and if we do it wont be in Cardiff. Ill be disappointed if we lost to them at home.

It is but I feel very pessimistic, something is clearly not right since the Autumn.

Whether it is Schmidt departure or something else I don't know but we haven't put in a quality performance since November.

Even in the 6N we didn't really see a response from the England defeat so its not just a recent issue. Individually players are not performing either so it isn't just the coaching or systems at fault.

Fair enough, though lets not forget Schmidt isnt the only coach leaving.

Collapse2005 wrote:Fair enough, though lets not forget Schmidt isnt the only coach leaving.

What do you think?

I mean we've had some iffy patches under Schmidt before but always the basics were strong, workrate, we've always been competitive.

I wonder is the fear factor of Joe's reviews diminished, has Joe himself switched off? Maybe Farrell is having greater influence?

No I doubt Joe has switched off. I think a guy like Joe who has great attention to detail is more likely to double his efforts when the end is near rather than the other way round.

I think we got smashed in a warm up game against a on fire England squad. No big deal because all squads have ups and downs and in the six years Schmidt has been in charge the downs tend to lead to ups fairly quickly.

I think the loss could be a good thing as it means everyone will have to double their efforts. These are big tough rugby guys not shrinking violets. They aren't just going to accept defeat I expect they will be galvanized by the set back and more focused and hungry because of it.

"They aren't just going to accept defeat I expect they will be galvanized by the set back and more focused and hungry because of it."

If they aren't, they're toast. If that loss doesn't get their A games going collectively, neither will a world cup knockout. This is about the players, not the coach. As it was in Perth for the AB's.

rodders wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Fair enough, though lets not forget Schmidt isnt the only coach leaving.

What do you think?

I mean we've had some iffy patches under Schmidt  before but always the basics were strong, workrate, we've always been competitive.

I wonder is the fear factor of Joe's reviews diminished, has Joe himself switched off? Maybe Farrell is having greater influence?

   Bad Omen for the future if so.

I'm thinking Coaches are just having a toughish time knocking Irish players out of their mental slumber.  It's relatively easy to work on the technicalities, but Irish players generally need a real carrot in front of them to get their mental states purring.  I think their minds have been on Japan since the end of November Internationals in 2018 and even a tasty game against England didn't stir their competitive juices enough to engage fully.

Joe is trying to coax them into the spirit around about now but I think they are being blunt Irish stubborn to an extent.... "nothing to play for yet, Joe.  Wait a while longer and then we'll give you everything.  We got this".
Arrogance?  Or simply players terrified of peaking too early yet one more time?  

I also sense players paralysed by the fear of getting an injury that will deny them the trip.  Now yes, that is probably foolhardy as you can still pick up serious injuries even playing less intense rugby, indeed some argue it is more likely...but psychology is psychology and I do see an obsessional fear of missing out manifesting itself in performances this year.

Anyway to conclude, I don't think Joe wanted us all fire and brimstone for these friendlies, but I do think he expected a tad more mental endeavour.  So a bit of tactical deception on his part mixed with player reluctance to fully engage on theirs.

Sounds like wishful thinking, Fly. Do you honestly think there is any real holding back of players for the last year in favour of a World Cup? You’ve been saying this since (after) the first game of the 6 Nations.

No side sets itself up to get the stuffing knocked out of it in a major tournament and then again in warm up games just to ‘bounce back’ just in time. Especially not a side who are so reliant on confidence.