England vs Ireland, one off Test - thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

England have announced their squad for the one off test match against Ireland, it is as follows

Joe Root
James Anderson
Moeen Ali
Jonny Bairstow
Stuart Broad
Rory Burns
Sam Curran
Joe Denly
Lewis Gregory
Jack Leach
Jason Roy
Olly Stone
Chris Woakes

Lewis Gregory, Jason Roy & Olly Stone could make debuts.

James Anderson included & Jack Leach returns.

Buttler and Stokes are rested.

Wood & Archer not considered because of injury. Wood out for 4 to 6 weeks.

[Duty281]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/jul/20/jason-roy-ashes-claim-england-ireland-test-lords

The most desperate article you could ever read. Ireland have about as much as chance of springing an upset as Canada do of winning the upcoming Rugby World Cup.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Would this suggest we wont see Jof in the series, then?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Would this suggest we wont see Jof in the series, then?

???

[Gooseberry]

If you're talking about his injury bits unlikely he will be fit for the first Ashes test now. Its questionable if he wouldve started the ashes anyway, but likely he wouldve been in the Ireland test squad over Stone and played.

Will he play at all? Might depend on pitches and how the attacks failed in early tests. But the first sign of a flat deck and sunny weather I'd hope England will want something more than Curran plopping it down at 80mph.

Theres also a fair chance that Anderson will break down or need resting. Theyve made no secret of wanting to move on from Broad as a new ball bowler for the past year. For the ashes opener they should have 4 fit senior seamers chasing 3 spots and I think he might well have struggled to demand a place anyway I do think he will play at some point in the ashes.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Would this suggest we wont see Jof in the series, then?

???

As posted before:

England squad for pre-Ashes camp: Joe Root (c), Moeen Ali, Jimmy Anderson, Jonny Bairstow (wk), Stuart Broad, Rory Burns, Jos Buttler (wk), Sam Curran, Joe Denly, Lewis Gregory, Jack Leach, Jason Roy, Ben Stokes, Olly Stone, Chris Woakes, Mark Wood.

Wood in there still. Is just cos Jofra is being given time out of the country?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Yeah he's got a week or two off in Barbados - would expect if fit he'll feature at some point, especially now Wood is out until at least the 4th test, probably knowing his fitness longer

[robbo277]

It seems odd that they'd want to move on from Broad, when it's Anderson who's more likely to retire first. But today Anderson is probably still the better bowler despite being 3 years older.

Will we see Woakes given the new ball in either of the first two tests with Anderson? He opens the bowling in ODIs and you'd say they are probably his best two grounds.

[alfie]

I do not believe there is any policy to " move on from Broad".  They want to develop alternatives , certainly : neither he nor Jimmy can go on forever . But as far as I can see he's only ever been left out of Tests in order to accommodate combinations of different types of bowlers in the light of particular pitch conditions on some overseas tours. Still think if he's fit and in decent form he is an automatic selection for home Tests.
Whether that remains the case through this Ashes series is yet to be seen , of course.

Obviously the time when new names are taking the new ball for England is getting closer. But some critics have written off the old guard before ...

The number of fast bowling options available at present is encouraging. It will be interesting to see just which bowlers do emerge as the eventual successors to the Anderson/Broad partnership ; but the prospects of fielding a viable pace attack after they finish now look a lot better than they did even a year or so ago.

Still a lot of Test wickets to replace !

[robbo277]

If Anderson and Broad were injured and Wood and Archer were fit, who would you be picking for the first Ashes test? And who would open the bowling? (Stokes is fine to play at 6, Moeen and Leach both available as well).

Woakes would be even more of a shoo-in for me and would definitely be opening the bowling.

The other opener would be interesting for me. I guess you have to look at the pitch. Curran has done the job a couple of times for England but never all that successfully (although when he did so in Sri Lanka he didn't bowl all that much). If it looks like it would swing, he'd be a good option. The other option would be Woakes new ball partner in ODIs Archer, who also opens the bowling for Sussex.

Mark Wood has only ever really been used as a change bowler except for in 2015 when he opened for a couple of tests against Australia when Anderson was injured, taking 1-13, 3-69 and and 1-59. The 1-13 was the other side of Broad's 8-15. The 1-59 was in the game where Australia put on plenty and only bat once. It's not too great a record, but he is in the form of his life in ODIs and could be a good option.

If the pitch was looking a bit flat I'd be tempted to go with Archer and Wood and open the bowling with Archer. If it looked like it might swing a bit I'd possibly go with Curran instead of Wood and could mix up who would open.

Incidentally I think a tail of Woakes at 8, Curran at 9, Ali at 10 and Archer 11 is possibly the strongest in test cricket as well.

[Afro]

Just done the “select your ashes xi” on the bbc and it is a tough job.

Went through and selected the “shoe-ins” for me.

1 Burns
2 ?
3 ?
4 Root
5 Stokes
6 Buttler
7 Bairstow
8 Woakes
9 ?
10 ?
11 Anderson

Picked Roy and Denly at 2 and 3, then realised I needed a spinner, so picked Leach at 10. And then was faced with trying to squeeze Broad, Archer, Wood and Curran into one spot!! And that ignores the fact I really wanted Gregory in there too!!!

Glad I’m not a selector!!

[Duty281]

I'd go for this as the strongest XI:

1) Burns (Very unimpressive so far, but what else is left - Sibley? Good grief)
2) Roy (He can't be any worse than the rest)
3) Bairstow (Won't happen, as they ended that experiment, but Bairstow is wasted at 7. Either put him up the order or ditch him completely)
4) Root (If he doesn't score heavily this summer, England's chances are redundant)
5) Northeast (Doing well in the CC)
6) Stokes (Hero, yes, but could do better with batting)
7) Buttler (Still not completely sold on his value as a Test player)
8) Woakes (Curran's right behind if Woakes starts poorly)
9) Broad or Archer (I'd like to see Archer get given a go at some point, undoubtedly he will)
10) Leach (The spinning cupboard is bare. But let's not have Moeen as a frontline option.)
11) Anderson (The old master)

[LondonTiger]

I'd go for this as the strongest XI:

1) Burns (Very unimpressive so far, but what else is left - Sibley? Good grief)
2) Roy (He can't be any worse than the rest)
3) Bairstow (Won't happen, as they ended that experiment, but Bairstow is wasted at 7. Either put him up the order or ditch him completely)
4) Root (If he doesn't score heavily this summer, England's chances are redundant)
5) Northeast (Doing well in the CC)
6) Stokes (Hero, yes, but could do better with batting)
7) Buttler (Still not completely sold on his value as a Test player)
8) Woakes (Curran's right behind if Woakes starts poorly)
9) Broad or Archer (I'd like to see Archer get given a go at some point, undoubtedly he will)
10) Leach (The spinning cupboard is bare. But let's not have Moeen as a frontline option.)
11) Anderson (The old master)

Problem is with Buttler at 7 and I assume keeping wicket, is that Bairstow is a better keeper by some margin. While not as natural as Foakes, I would argue that all the work YJB has put in with Bruce French there is only a fag paper between them in terms of effectiveness.

[robbo277]

It's top 3 and spinner for me.

4. Root
5. Bairstow
6. Stokes
7. Buttler
8. Woakes
10. Broad
11. Anderson

Is pretty much set for the opening tests. The question is over the top 3 (where we look weak) and the spinner (where we look adequate only).

Taking spinner first, Moeen has won us test matches and looked all at sea in equal measure. He was dropped from the World Cup team and Australia have taken a shine to him before. We also have Root who can bowl fairly handy off spin.

Leach has some really good county stats and looked good on the subcontinent, but whether he can trouble the Australian line-up on potentially unhelpful tracks is less certain. If we play Denly at 3, we also have a second spin option who can move the ball away from the right hander to compliment Moeen.

Someone close to Moeen will be better placed to judge. If we get him at his best then he could be a real asset coming in well down the order and counter attacking and taking key wickets. But if he's not at his best then he's a bit of a liability and maybe if Leach could offer a bit more control we can attack with our seamers.

The top 3 is more difficult. We still haven't replaced Strauss or Trott and now Cook has gone as well. Burns is probably worth persevering with, Roy is probably worth giving a shot to, and a lot of other players have been tried and ditched previously. There is the option of messing with your middle order to bring someone up, but it rarely works. We could promote Moeen to 3 to try and cause some carnage and get both spinners in, but he'll likely fail more often than he'll succeed.

With Roy and Burns at the top and people likening Roy to Warner, Burns is probably more in the mould of a Chris Rogers, and those two forged a nice partnership together for Australia. It might be worth giving Roy and Burns a long run together to try and build that understanding - and it will help that they're county colleagues. Denly is probably just a stop gap at 3, scores at a similar rate to Burns and bowls a bit of leg spin.

It's not a bad top 3. If we can get a good opening partnership then we are obviously well set. If we lose an early wicket Denly can act as a third opener to just try and get rid of the new ball and the first spells before we score the bulk of our runs from Root down.

Sibley can keep knocking on the door, and if he does will get a shot before too long, either at 3 if the opening partnership settles in well or as the 219th opener trialled since Strauss retired.

[robbo277]

I'd go for this as the strongest XI:

1) Burns (Very unimpressive so far, but what else is left - Sibley? Good grief)
2) Roy (He can't be any worse than the rest)
3) Bairstow (Won't happen, as they ended that experiment, but Bairstow is wasted at 7. Either put him up the order or ditch him completely)
4) Root (If he doesn't score heavily this summer, England's chances are redundant)
5) Northeast (Doing well in the CC)
6) Stokes (Hero, yes, but could do better with batting)
7) Buttler (Still not completely sold on his value as a Test player)
8) Woakes (Curran's right behind if Woakes starts poorly)
9) Broad or Archer (I'd like to see Archer get given a go at some point, undoubtedly he will)
10) Leach (The spinning cupboard is bare. But let's not have Moeen as a frontline option.)
11) Anderson (The old master)

Problem is with Buttler at 7 and I assume keeping wicket, is that Bairstow is a better keeper by some margin. While not as natural as Foakes, I would argue that all the work YJB has put in with Bruce French there is only a fag paper between them in terms of effectiveness.

Why does Buttler keep in ODIs if Bairstow is a better keeper? Is it because Bairstow is an opener? Or because he's a better outfielder?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I'd go for this as the strongest XI:

1) Burns (Very unimpressive so far, but what else is left - Sibley? Good grief)
2) Roy (He can't be any worse than the rest)
3) Bairstow (Won't happen, as they ended that experiment, but Bairstow is wasted at 7. Either put him up the order or ditch him completely)
4) Root (If he doesn't score heavily this summer, England's chances are redundant)
5) Northeast (Doing well in the CC)
6) Stokes (Hero, yes, but could do better with batting)
7) Buttler (Still not completely sold on his value as a Test player)
8) Woakes (Curran's right behind if Woakes starts poorly)
9) Broad or Archer (I'd like to see Archer get given a go at some point, undoubtedly he will)
10) Leach (The spinning cupboard is bare. But let's not have Moeen as a frontline option.)
11) Anderson (The old master)

Problem is with Buttler at 7 and I assume keeping wicket, is that Bairstow is a better keeper by some margin. While not as natural as Foakes, I would argue that all the work YJB has put in with Bruce French there is only a fag paper between them in terms of effectiveness.

Why does Buttler keep in ODIs if Bairstow is a better keeper? Is it because Bairstow is an opener? Or because he's a better outfielder?

Combination of Bairstow opening, and being one of the best deep fielders in the world. He probably saves more runs in the field than Buttler would, than he would save keeping over Buttler (who is a fine keeper himself, not quite as good as YJB agreed - I think the difference is standing upto the stumps, Bairstow is far better.)

[Gooseberry]

The forecast keeps changing but current has Wednesday as brutally hot and Thursday as one of the hottest days ever followed by a grey and wet Friday.
The conditions could change dramatically through the game and noone will want to be bowling in 37 degree heat.

(Indian and Austrialn posters will of course wonder what all the fuss is about)

[Gooseberry]

On buttler bairstow its partly come about through how secure their places were in each team and not wanting to keep chopping and changing who had the gloves / protect egos.

In short form Buttler is in the unquestioned selection bucket and has been for sometime. Bairstow has been in a 3 way tussle with Hales and Roy for two openers spots for some time, and had to win a spot back. It's only since Hales went off the rails that hes had long term security, and Roy's continued rise still leaves him the most dropable of the bats.

It's really the opposite in tests. Buttler being in the side at all was a questionable choice, whereas Bairstow is really the only one other than root who has a long term proven test record as a batsman. Buttler was bought back for his lower mid order batting and style, not for his keeping.
Now there is a strong case that the team would be better served taking the gloves from him and have him put all of his focus into his batting as a top order player ( even more so with his life partner Roy up there). And it's not like his outfielding wouldnt be useful in tests.
But he himself said he wanted the gloves, and England do like to keep their players happy and secure. Had he lost them when returning from injury his place in the side at all would have been under a lot of pressure even though the other batsmen were largely awful, and that pressure can sometimes worsen performance.
I guess also there was a concern as to how much buttler or foakes would have kept up their good starts, and not wanting to have to change game to game.
There is some difference in keeping styles between the formats too, and the type of bowling they work with. Stamina maybe an issue too, bairstow has shown he can maintain focus for 2 days in the field and still bat, buttler is much less experienced doing that.

I dont think it's clear cut either way but theres tactical and historic team management reasons why it's happened.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I'd be playing Mo. He's delivered in this country many times, and I think the fact that spin will be an added area rather than make or break means his apparent fragile confidence might be protected.

[Gooseberry]

Mo is a given for the Ireland test, they cant possibly build a vaguely sensible batting line up without him. Sticking him in the top 6 might be optimistic but then other option is woakes and Curran at 6 7

For the rest of the summer it may depend on pitches and on how he goes in this test. I dont knowing forcing him up the order here signals that they are going to look at the two spinner option again or not.

Honestly though expecting him to average 30 plus with the bat in tests seems optimistic at best.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Should be noted the Aussie batting lineup is likely to have at least 4, as many as 6/7 left handers (Warner, Harris, Khawaja, Head, Starc all likely play, Wade, Pattinson as outside shouts) - would suit the off spinner more than slow left arm bowler for sure

As for this week - seems like they don’t think Anderson is anywhere near ready to play, so he’ll be one to miss out.

[Gooseberry]

Yeah I think the only argument wouldve been whether you have both leech and mo in the side for this game or not. In the heat it might not be a bad idea? But in suppose you could argue the 5th seamer would allow a lot of rotation.

Either way it's going to be a very patchwork and inexperienced England side without Anderson as well. Ireland have a pedigree of shocking England in lottery formats, it shouldn't happen here but ....

[guildfordbat]

I won't be around for this one but hope you guys get to see a good match.

Very much as Goose says in his last para. It's hard to not see even this makeshift England side winning. If several of the Ireland team produce good to very good performances whilst England are below par, it could be tight. However, if the other way round, it would be embarrassing.

I actually hope Ireland do pretty well. I'm usually a sucker for the underdog and have met Gary Wilson who has been recallled. He's a top bloke and the embodiment of team spirit although I would have expected his day to have been and gone by now.

Two Ireland and Middlesex players will be on their usual home turf. Opener Stirliing - similar in style to Roy although with no pretence of sophistication - is always capable of a quick half-ton whilst seamer Murtagh has had enough years bowling at Lord's to work out the slope. However, I do suspect the veteran 'Dial M' would be more effective on a cool, grey day than with the sun blazing down.

A third who had a short time at Middlesex, before being released due to mix of injury and lack of opportunities, is number 3 Balbirnie. I've liked him for a while having seen him on tv in ODIs. An intelligent batsman who judges the situation astutely.

[Gooseberry]

I hope Ireland do well simply because England need some kind of a warm up, even if theres only 4 or 5 of the likely starting ashes team turning out for this one! 

People are very dismissive of the Australian side but I really think they should be favourites for the first test given Englands lack of preparation and issues with their batting. the likes of Roy and Denly are in for a real shock when facing Cummins and Starc as an opening pair.

[Duty281]

2/1 with the good folk at SkyBet that England win this test by an innings. England's batting might let them down though! An equally pleasant 2/1 that Ireland score fewer than 350 runs in the entire match. And a proper old punt at 7/1 that Ireland are bowled out for a two digit score in their first innings.

[Gooseberry]

Forecast is now showing 39 degrees for Thursday...or 102 in old money 

Dont count on Ireland getting blitzed out. Certainly England wont be bowling fast!

[LondonTiger]

Forecast is now showing 39 degrees for Thursday...or 102 in old money 

Dont count on Ireland getting blitzed out. Certainly England wont be bowling fast!

Win the toss and bat for two days would solve that issue for England.

As to Australia it will be interesting how they arrange their batting lineup. Certainly however they do it, it looks at least as strong as us while their bowling options look better.

I see that Australia are playing an old fashioned trial game down in Southampton for the next four days before selecting their squad.

[LondonTiger]

Anderson confirmed as missing this test.

In other news "New Zealander of the Year" nominee Ben Stokes suggests people should vote for Kane Williamson.

[Gooseberry]

Forecast is now showing 39 degrees for Thursday...or 102 in old money 

Dont count on Ireland getting blitzed out. Certainly England wont be bowling fast!

Win the toss and bat for two days would solve that issue for England.

As to Australia it will be interesting how they arrange their batting lineup. Certainly however they do it, it looks at least as strong as us while their bowling options look better.

I see that Australia are playing an old fashioned trial game down in Southampton for the next four days before selecting their squad.

You have a lot of faith in England batting.

[KP_fan]

They should stop this nonsense of 4 day tests. Didn't like when South Africa tried against Zimbabwe. Don't like it here.
Zimbabwe or Ireland at this stage, may not be lasting 5 days in many test matches. But that is not the point. They need to be given proper opportunities. These sides are not likely to get too many test matches in any case, so whatever they get, should at least be a 5 day game.

Yeah that's condescending & BBC go a step further with this.
Its never wise to take a test match lightly

England fast bowler James Anderson has been ruled out of his side's Ashes warm-up Test against Ireland at Lord's.

[Gooseberry]

Again people having a lot of faith in England batting if they see 4 day tests as a disrespect to Ireland.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Confirmed England XI (not confirmed batting order, but assumed)

Burns
Roy
Denly
Root
Bairstow
Ali
Woakes
Curran
Stone
Broad
Leach

[robbo277]

Confirmed England XI (not confirmed batting order, but assumed)

Burns
Roy
Denly
Root
Bairstow
Ali
Woakes
Curran
Stone
Broad
Leach

England playing 3x 7s in the absence of a proper 6 is very England. Bairstow batting a little up the order with the gloves as well is potentially an interesting move (and a thanks to those who provided comments on Bairstow, Buttler and wicket keeping above).

We should have enough to win this test and hopefully we can gain a bit of confidence moving forward. Top 3 in particular. If this was the first test of the Ashes, I'd worry though. Even though I'd have 8 of those in my Ashes line-up the balance of the side is a bit off.

[Duty281]

Good side given the circumstances. One advantage of being an unsettled team with places up for grabs is that there's plenty of players who will be motivated to make a telling impression on the powers that be - this England side won't be going through the motions.

Forecast doesn't look good for Saturday, so this four-day game might be a three-day game! Not that that should change the result as Ireland look very weak. They've only got two players with a FC batting average of 35+ - one is KOB, the other is James McCollum.

[KP_fan]

Forecast doesn't look good for Saturday, so this four-day game might be a three-day game! Not that that should change the result as Ireland look very weak. They've only got two players with a FC batting average of 35+ - one is KOB, the other is James McCollum.

I will trust your weather forecast and "gamble" 5£ on a draw......with 9 times return

[Eyetoldyouso]

Good side given the circumstances. One advantage of being an unsettled team with places up for grabs is that there's plenty of players who will be motivated to make a telling impression on the powers that be - this England side won't be going through the motions.

Forecast doesn't look good for Saturday, so this four-day game might be a three-day game! Not that that should change the result as Ireland look very weak. They've only got two players with a FC batting average of 35+ - one is KOB, the other is James McCollum.

One disadvantage of playing against a weak side is that you don't learn very much. Ireland /Australia - chalk/cheese

[Duty281]

Forecast doesn't look good for Saturday, so this four-day game might be a three-day game! Not that that should change the result as Ireland look very weak. They've only got two players with a FC batting average of 35+ - one is KOB, the other is James McCollum.

I will trust your weather forecast and "gamble" 5£ on a draw......with 9 times return

Well if the good people of the BBC Weather page are right, you may be onto a winner.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/2638768

[Duty281]

Good side given the circumstances. One advantage of being an unsettled team with places up for grabs is that there's plenty of players who will be motivated to make a telling impression on the powers that be - this England side won't be going through the motions.

Forecast doesn't look good for Saturday, so this four-day game might be a three-day game! Not that that should change the result as Ireland look very weak. They've only got two players with a FC batting average of 35+ - one is KOB, the other is James McCollum.

One disadvantage of playing against a weak side is that you don't learn very much. Ireland /Australia - chalk/cheese

True!

[Jetty]

6 bowlers again
2 spinners?
Last year we bowled 20 overs of spin in 2 Tests at Lords.
Bess 20.4-0-88-0

[robbo277]

6 bowlers again
2 spinners?
Last year we bowled 20 overs of spin in 2 Tests at Lords.
Bess 20.4-0-88-0

Might be worth noting they are 98 over days and the forecast is very hot. With 4 seamers and 2 spinners there will be no issue with workload, but if we came in with just the one spinner and he got hit out the attack then we might overbowl the seamers - with a short turnaround to the first Ashes test.

The squad also looks like it was picked with Anderson in mind for one of those fast bowling places, and they may have hoped to manage his workload had he played. As it is, it's unlikely that Stone will be able to bowl 20 overs a day at 90mph, so he can be used more sparingly in bursts.

[Duty281]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/jul/23/ashes-arms-race-australians-playing-each-other

If the ball moves then the Australians are clueless.

[Gooseberry]

Theyve got a better pedigree than Englands top 3. Wait to see how we get on against Irelands club cricketers before crowing too much. England have one proper batsman who's secure of a place, Australia at least have 2.

And come the Ashes it will be England facing Starc Cummins and Pattison.

The big difference between the attacks is that Australais can be dangerous in any conditions. England will likely start with 4 moderately paced swing bowlers and Moeen.

[Duty281]

I rate Australia as the better team, but the conditions will be a great leveller. It should be a very close series - likely to be 1-1 after two tests, with the first being held at fortress Edgbaston and the second at Lord's.

[Gooseberry]

Fair enough Duty. A lot may depend on the weather, cloudy humid stuff will suit England more. But unless they go all put to flatten the pitches I suspect both teams will struggle with the bat.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Good test for England first up here - pitch is green, and Murtagh will nibble it up the slope. But if they can get through the first hour, you'd have thought with 38 degree weather batting will get easier as the day goes on

[LondonTiger]

It does look very green. With 800 FC wickets, Murtagh is no mug. However he is no Trent Boult or Matt Henry either (who made life hard for Roy in the WC final)

[Duty281]

England's top order is vulnerable and with a green top and the ball nibbling around, Ireland simply must do damage in the first hour. If they don't, it'll be a very long day in the field. A 98 over and seven hour day in this heat!

[LondonTiger]

Two massive slices of luck for Roy already. Third time lucky for Ireland.

[Duty281]

If this is an example of Roy's technique in test matches, Lord help him when he's up against Starc!

He's gone now. Awful innings.

[compelling and rich]

not exactly a confidence boosting innings from roy. and lets face it the aussie attack is miles better than this irish one

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Roy a flat track slogger clueless against the moving ball. Embarrassing that we are giving out Test caps

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