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The Ashes - official thread

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 26 Jul 2019, 12:05 pm

First topic message reminder :

Seeing as this starts next week, I'll kick it off - the Aussies have selected their 17 man squad


Australia's Ashes squad: Tim Paine (c), Cameron Bancroft, Pat Cummins, Marcus Harris, Josh Hazlewood, Travis Head, Usman Khawaja, Marnus Labuschagne, Nathan Lyon, Mitchell Marsh, Michael Neser, James Pattinson, Peter Siddle, Steven Smith, Mitchell Starc, Matthew Wade, David Warner.

Main takeaway there is no specialist spinner selected behind Lyon, with Neser included suggests they don't anticipate many, if any, spinning wickets...
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Post by Pal Joey on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 9:50 am

guildfordbat wrote:JD - thanks for your report. Always good and helpful to hear from someone at the ground.

Was there a view amongst the crowd - as from several here - that Paine goofed in making the declaration too late?

Although it didn't work tonight, I understood his apparent thinking as per my earlier post. It's not just about having a sufficient lead. The more you tire out your opponents and hack them off  may mean you have more chance of taking 1 or even 2 wickets in 8 overs than 18.  I'm sure the knives will be out for the Aussie skipper if we escape with a draw being 8 or 9 down at stumps but, as I say, I'll still appreciate his reasoning.

Yes Guildford. I found it all a little too clever.

As others have said they should have declared with around 350~360 runs and had a bit more of Lyon at the end. 8 overs would have been great.
We could all see the light deteriorating in that final hour. I would have thought a minimum 12 overs, even 15 would have been the perfect thing to do. 

Makes it much better for me too. When it's 3am here - I'd much rather see some animation and dust spitting from Lyon... than silly Davey Warner (not dressed in his whites) giggling in the dressing room.

Notwithstanding getting on with getting the job done - instead of fluffing around with the England player's minds.
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Post by Duty281 on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 10:33 am

Right I think it's about a 90% chance from here that Australia win. No rain whatsoever on the horizon, so we're going to have a full 90 overs (if required). Four wickets that Australia need to take surely won't put up that much resistance (Bairstow, Ali, Anderson, Broad). Woakes, Buttler and Roy - batting to save a game isn't exactly in their repertoire! Root's out of form. Burns and Denly aren't exactly quality players. Lyon will get sharp turn and can bowl long spells. Australia can set attacking fields all day without worrying about the scoreboard. And even if it does go to the evening session, the tourists have the luxury of a second new ball about 17 overs from the end to help them over the line. All in Australia's favour, pretty much.

England's best hopes of a draw probably rely on Root and Stokes, who both have history in batting long test match innings - Root has survived 180 balls or more in a test innings on 13 occasions; Stokes has done it 5 times (180 balls, of course, being a session's worth).

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Post by robbo277 on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 10:43 am

Duty281 wrote:Right I think it's about a 90% chance from here that Australia win. No rain whatsoever on the horizon, so we're going to have a full 90 overs (if required). Four wickets that Australia need to take surely won't put up that much resistance (Bairstow, Ali, Anderson, Broad). Woakes, Buttler and Roy - batting to save a game isn't exactly in their repertoire! Root's out of form. Burns and Denly aren't exactly quality players. Lyon will get sharp turn and can bowl long spells. Australia can set attacking fields all day without worrying about the scoreboard. And even if it does go to the evening session, the tourists have the luxury of a second new ball about 17 overs from the end to help them over the line. All in Australia's favour, pretty much.

England's best hopes of a draw probably rely on Root and Stokes, who both have history in batting long test match innings - Root has survived 180 balls or more in a test innings on 13 occasions; Stokes has done it 5 times (180 balls, of course, being a session's worth).

You'd think Root would need to be there until near the end. Would he be better off when he's not worrying about the score? He looked relatively untroubled in the first innings and then sped up, before getting out.

The righthanders will be key. Lyon isn't as good in the fourth innings and isn't as good against righthanders. Can Roy and Buttler disrupt him? Can Root and Denly stick in for long periods? 5 right handers in the top 7 and we'll need to protect the lower order as long as possible - possibly even all day. If Lyon gets into Ali, Broad and Anderson I can't see any of them sticking around for too long.

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Post by king_carlos on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 10:51 am

The pitch is flat enough to bat a day. There's little movement for seamers and the spin is slow even when it does turn big.

It's whether the England batsman are good enough to bat a day. England need their top order batsman to view it as batting a session at a time and wearing the Australia bowlers down. It's day 5 and they don't have 2nd change bowlers of any significance to turn to.

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Post by king_carlos on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 10:54 am

guildfordbat wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Another nonsense is both sides trying to get the ball changed at nearly every opportunity. Needs to be a curb on that sort of behaviour, rather than slowing the game down.
These situations remind me of the wonderful interaction between Dickie Bird and Dennis Lillee when the later was unhappy with the shape of the ball.

Lillee requested the ball be changed and umpire Bird said we'll look at it at the end of the over. Lillee bowled another delivery and asked again, Bird said finish the over. Lillee bowled another delivery and asked again, captain Ian Chappell had to convince Lillee to finish the over. In true pantomime villain fashion Lillee decides that he'll finish the over by bowling off breaks. On a pitch that hadn't turned all test he got two deliveries to turn beautifully and challenge the batsman!

At the end of the over Bird looked at the ball, said yep it's out of shape Dennis and called for a replacement. A great interaction between to of the great characters the game has seen.

I'm surprised Bird didn't take the players off while he considered Lillee's request. Wink

As an even further off topic comment which I reckon you'll like, Carlos - I met Lillee's old partner Jeff Thomson when I was in New Zealand last year. It was in the bar (no surprise there!) at the Auckland cricket ground. I was wearing a Surrey t-shirt at the time. ''I recognise that top''said Tommo as he put down his bottle of beer and held out his hand. Surprisingly, a very friendly and good guy (off the pitch anyway). Very Happy
They were an inimitable pair that's for sure, guildford!

I had the pleasure of meeting Lillee once. A lovely man and incredibly knowledgeable about the game. The way he reinvented his bowling after back trouble showed how astute a cricketing mind he had and he's converted that into coaching.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 10:58 am

robbo277 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Right I think it's about a 90% chance from here that Australia win. No rain whatsoever on the horizon, so we're going to have a full 90 overs (if required). Four wickets that Australia need to take surely won't put up that much resistance (Bairstow, Ali, Anderson, Broad). Woakes, Buttler and Roy - batting to save a game isn't exactly in their repertoire! Root's out of form. Burns and Denly aren't exactly quality players. Lyon will get sharp turn and can bowl long spells. Australia can set attacking fields all day without worrying about the scoreboard. And even if it does go to the evening session, the tourists have the luxury of a second new ball about 17 overs from the end to help them over the line. All in Australia's favour, pretty much.

England's best hopes of a draw probably rely on Root and Stokes, who both have history in batting long test match innings - Root has survived 180 balls or more in a test innings on 13 occasions; Stokes has done it 5 times (180 balls, of course, being a session's worth).

You'd think Root would need to be there until near the end. Would he be better off when he's not worrying about the score? He looked relatively untroubled in the first innings and then sped up, before getting out.

The righthanders will be key. Lyon isn't as good in the fourth innings and isn't as good against righthanders. Can Roy and Buttler disrupt him? Can Root and Denly stick in for long periods? 5 right handers in the top 7 and we'll need to protect the lower order as long as possible - possibly even all day. If Lyon gets into Ali, Broad and Anderson I can't see any of them sticking around for too long.

Yep, Root surely has to be the key man - the Collingwood or Atherton of this effort. He shouldn't be worried about the score or personal milestones - only the time of day.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 11:00 am

Expecting England to be three or four down at lunch, and polished off around teatime, for what it's worth.

Cummins to start.

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Post by dummy_half on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 11:09 am

I think England still have to put the bad ball away - not really to chase the total (unless they bowl rank bad balls at Roy all morning), but to try to put some pressure back on the bowlers and fielders.

If the weather doesn't intervene I think England only have about 10% chance of holding out, especially given the pretty rotten red ball batting form of Buttler, Bairstow and Ali recently.

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Post by Steffan on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 11:13 am

Duty281 wrote:Expecting England to be three or four down at lunch, and polished off around teatime, for what it's worth
I predict a riot. I predict a riot

And a draw

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 11:15 am

That's a disappointing dismissal. Though Cummins does apparently average 8.5 with the ball on the fifth day of tests!

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 11:18 am

Oh dear. Burns didn't seem to know what he was trying to do with that ball from Cummins. I did fear his earlier achievement and the concentration that went with it would have taken a lot out of him.

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Post by Steffan on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 11:19 am

Burns got burned baby. Great bowl from Cummings

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Post by eirebilly on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 11:26 am

A very difficult day ahead for England. I am not so sure that the pitch is as bad as being said but more to do with mentality.

England will be lucky to see out a draw here.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 11:28 am

Proper decent bumper from Cummins that to get Burns - he looks to be on song this morning, another roaring bumper puts Roy on his backside next over
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Post by Duty281 on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 11:31 am

Brilliant spell of bowling from Pattinson and Cummins, especially the latter.

Root reprieved by DRS after another umpiring error.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 11:32 am

these umpires need to be fined/sacked - that was awful, clearly going down legside!
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Post by Duty281 on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 11:33 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:these umpires need to be fined/sacked - that was awful, clearly going down legside!

Sadly, we've got Aleem Dar in the next test and Joel Wilson in the third.

Nine decisions overturned in the test - seven of which were errors by Wilson.

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Post by VTR on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 11:39 am

Don't forget the shocker of giving the Aussies a new ball because they couldn't get the one they had to swing

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Post by robbo277 on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 11:40 am

We were meant to have Dharmaseena for this test, although he pulled out after the World Cup final. I guess we may see a late change with Wilson potentially being withdrawn after his performance this week.

The question, as with England's batting travails, is who do you bring in?

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Post by eirebilly on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 11:41 am

Umpiring is not an easy job but my god, some of these errors have been basic ones. The only compensation is that the umpiring has been consistently poor for both sides.
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Post by Soul Requiem on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 11:42 am

VTR wrote:Don't forget the shocker of giving the Aussies a new ball because they couldn't get the one they had to swing

Worst decision of the test and needs to be investigated as such, didn't help that Burns and Denly were the batsmen at the time, can't imagine any of the more senior guys not saying anything.

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Post by Steffan on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 11:46 am

Umpires getting their revenge on England for dodgy umpires in the past

No wait...that was dodgy empires

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Post by eirebilly on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 11:52 am

Steffan wrote:Umpires getting their revenge on England for dodgy umpires in the past

No wait...that was dodgy empires

I thought ye was Welsh? Sorry lad, never knew ye were an Aussie.
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Post by Steffan on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 11:53 am

eirebilly wrote:I thought ye was Welsh? Sorry lad, never knew ye were an Aussie.
Only in cricket lad Wink

My prediction of a draw seems to be coming true

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Post by eirebilly on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 11:54 am

Oh so ye are Welsh?

Gets so confusing on here at times.
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Post by Steffan on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 11:55 am

eirebilly wrote:Gets so confusing on here at times.
No truer words have been spoken my friend

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 11:56 am

Another error. Another overturn by drs. Joel Wilson needs to be removed from the elite panel, or whatever it is.

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Post by Pal Joey on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 11:57 am

Steffan wrote:Umpires getting their revenge on England for dodgy umpires in the past

No wait...that was dodgy empires

Likewise the sun never sets on your humour.

What I find a little bit scary are the World Cup logos still faintly visible on the field. Like old scars still healing and all that... a subtle reminder.

Honestly, the psychological torture Australia has had to endure during this summer... when will it end? Very Happy
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 11:57 am

Wilson gets another stinker wrong - clear inside edge, he looks at Dar for help, then gives it randomly
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Post by eirebilly on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 11:57 am

If the shoe was on the other foot, I feel that the Aussies would actually mount a chase for the win rather than try to simply see out the day for a draw. Same can be said for India and even South Africa. That's just the difference in mentality for me.

Something in me is a bit all or nothing.
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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 11:58 am

This is not funny anymore - even if someone has now updated Wilson's wiki page to state he is a blind umpire.

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Post by VTR on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 12:01 pm

It's easy with Steffan, if England (and Wales) are about to lose he'll be on here!

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 12:01 pm

eirebilly wrote:If the shoe was on the other foot, I feel that the Aussies would actually mount a chase for the win rather than try to simply see out the day for a draw. Same can be said for India and even South Africa. That's just the difference in mentality for me.

Something in me is a bit all or nothing.

Sorry Billy absolutely no chance - 400 on a day 5 pitch, no team in the world is doing so
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Post by Duty281 on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 12:02 pm

Now Aleem Dar has falsely said Root was playing a shot when he clearly wasn't! It's been a good test match, somewhat spoiled by atrocious umpiring.

England have done well to only lose one wicket in the opening hour. Very lively out there and plenty of chances for the Aussies.

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Post by eirebilly on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 12:03 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
eirebilly wrote:If the shoe was on the other foot, I feel that the Aussies would actually mount a chase for the win rather than try to simply see out the day for a draw. Same can be said for India and even South Africa. That's just the difference in mentality for me.

Something in me is a bit all or nothing.

Sorry Billy absolutely no chance - 400 on a day 5 pitch, no team in the world is doing so


I disagree, The Aussies would have certainly felt they had a chance at victory and I do feel they would have tried. They may have changed tact once a wicket or two had been taken but I do feel that they always feel they can win. They have a very different mentality.
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Post by Soul Requiem on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 12:08 pm

eirebilly wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
eirebilly wrote:If the shoe was on the other foot, I feel that the Aussies would actually mount a chase for the win rather than try to simply see out the day for a draw. Same can be said for India and even South Africa. That's just the difference in mentality for me.

Something in me is a bit all or nothing.

Sorry Billy absolutely no chance - 400 on a day 5 pitch, no team in the world is doing so


I disagree, The Aussies would have certainly felt they had a chance at victory and I do feel they would have tried. They may have changed tact once a wicket or two had been taken but I do feel that they always feel they can win. They have a very different mentality.

Not a chance in a live opener of an important series would they be going for the win.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 12:13 pm

Bit surprised the comms glossed over that missed chance by Paine - looked very poor keeping to me, a fairly regulation outside edge and low down catch at international level
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Post by Duty281 on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 12:18 pm

Well that's just stupid. You're batting to save a test match and you decide to charge down the pitch to their most dangerous bowler?!

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Post by compelling and rich on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 12:18 pm

oh dear roy

he does realise its not a one dayer and hes trying to save the test?

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 12:18 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Bit surprised the comms glossed over that missed chance by Paine - looked very poor keeping to me, a fairly regulation outside edge and low down catch at international level

Doesn't matter, as Roy has a brain fart. He'd looked ok against Lyon so far too, not sure why he suddenly decided he needed to dance down the track
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Post by Steffan on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 12:19 pm

Roy my boy has gone. Not Lyon about that either

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Post by compelling and rich on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 12:19 pm

cant believe what ive just seen if im honest

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Post by VTR on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 12:21 pm

That's why we are losing this. Other than Burns, Root, Stokes and Woakes, the batsmen want to dominate at all times. Four guys, one who is out already aren't going to save a match on a pitch like this

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Post by compelling and rich on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 12:22 pm

is this actually a one dayer and nobody has told me?

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 12:23 pm

compelling and rich wrote:is this actually a one dayer and nobody has told me?

Certainly no one informed Roy this is a test match! That walk of shame back to the dressing room must have been difficult.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 12:28 pm

I'm looking forward to hearing what Boycs has to say about that.

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 12:34 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:I'm looking forward to hearing what Boycs has to say about that.
Good point. Dreadful batting. In a way, Roy was fortunate he was bowled as otherwise he would surely have been stumped which would have looked far worse in the scorebook given the situation.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 12:36 pm

A mere 19 overs through today and England are three down. A bad day for the Roy/Burns/Denly group.

Not quite sure why Denly reviewed that, in all truth.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 12:36 pm

Denly with a "save my career please DRS" review. No bueno, he's gone
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Post by Soul Requiem on Mon 05 Aug 2019, 12:37 pm

I would say we may as well get rid of Roy straight away, he just lacks the mentality to cut it at test level, who comes in is anyones guess but I was more confident of Hales making the transition and that failed too.

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