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Brexit

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Brexit - Page 20 Empty Brexit

Post by JuliusHMarx on Thu 29 Aug 2019, 9:39 am

First topic message reminder :

Tea anyone?

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Brexit - Page 20 Empty Re: Brexit

Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 15 Sep 2020, 3:13 pm

superflyweight wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
Samo wrote:

Ever feel like you've been sold down the river?

That happened around six years ago.
Tumbleweed Going to be funny watching the Sheltand Islands secede from Scotland...

Perhaps you need to read this:-

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/talk-shetland-independence-wide-mark-2968657

thumbsup

While it does approach the story with a good deal of sense and realism, it does throw up an interesting issue in its own right.  How does the SNP government, which itself demands greater powers from Westminster (and eventually of course, Independence), justify its continuing power grab and centralisation of government in the face of protest from local regions who want their own level of autonomy?

A bit of a stretch considering this is one and only instance of any sort that I have heard of any dissension whatsoever. If the situation ever occurs it will be crossed at that time by whoever happens to be in power at that time in what, I'd imagine would be an independent Scotland at that time. But all the same its refreshing that we've not heard Westminster-esque soundbytes coming out of Holyrood like you're too wee, you're too poor, now is not the time, there is no appetite etc etc etc.
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Post by superflyweight on Tue 15 Sep 2020, 3:38 pm

There's been plenty of dissension over the SNP's approach to centralisation. The centralisation of the Police, Fire Service and the ongoing council tax freeze have all had strong criticism at both a local and national level.

I'm just not sure that everybody appreciates the disconnect between asking for greater devolved powers from one body while taking local powers away from other bodies.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 15 Sep 2020, 4:20 pm

So much dissension that the SNP are on course to increase their seat count at next year's Scottish Elections. Now that says one of two things. Either the dissension is not,that strong at all or underlying it is but more people see voting for SNP as the ever-growing support for independence and will overlook those issues.
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Post by superflyweight on Tue 15 Sep 2020, 4:25 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:So much dissension that the SNP are on course to increase their seat count at next year's Scottish Elections. Now that says one of two things. Either the dissension is not,that strong at all or underlying it is but more people see voting for SNP as the ever-growing support for independence and will overlook those issues.

And you don't see the problem with that kind of blinkered approach to assessing the performance of a government?  A failure of policy is a failure of policy regardless of whether or not you support the end goal of the party in power.  

I don't think it's any different to people prepared to ignore the incompetence and lies of the Conservative government simply because they will "get Brexit done".

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 15 Sep 2020, 9:26 pm

superflyweight wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:So much dissension that the SNP are on course to increase their seat count at next year's Scottish Elections. Now that says one of two things. Either the dissension is not,that strong at all or underlying it is but more people see voting for SNP as the ever-growing support for independence and will overlook those issues.

And you don't see the problem with that kind of blinkered approach to assessing the performance of a government?  A failure of policy is a failure of policy regardless of whether or not you support the end goal of the party in power.  

I don't think it's any different to people prepared to ignore the incompetence and lies of the Conservative government simply because they will "get Brexit done".

I have lived through many governments in my life in Scotland and in England and the SNP I'd put far above other governments I have lived under. Perfect? No. But better than the Tory and Labour governments.
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Post by superflyweight on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 9:43 am

Comparing against other governments is not the issue though. Blindly supporting and never criticising a government regardless of what it does because you believe in the end goal is not a healthy position to be in.

The SNP government has done ok up here, but there have been a number of failings which are deserving of real scrutiny and criticsim. It would be doing better if it had to compete with a semi-competent opposition and also if the SNP's core supporter base didn't just dismiss any complaints about its performance as "Unionist".

I've got in-laws who are teachers and who recognise that the SNP's performance on Education is dreadful, but come the next election they'll put all that to one side and vote SNP anyway. If that's the situation that we find ourselves in, where's the incentive for the SNP to imporve that performance and do anything but push for independence?

From an existential political view, we're probably better if independence is achieved as that would at least faciliate genuine opposition to the Scottish government.

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 11:03 am

Any government gets tired. Mistakes increase over time and are seldom forgotten, while so many achievements are taken for granted. Blair's labour government is a great example. Very popular and did many things, some good and some bad, but of course got worse over time. Current Tory gov does turn that on its head. They really can't seem to get anything right.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 16 Sep 2020, 11:28 am

superflyweight wrote:Comparing against other governments is not the issue though.  Blindly supporting and never criticising a government regardless of what it does because you believe in the end goal is not a healthy position to be in.  

The SNP government has done ok up here, but there have been a number of failings which are deserving of real scrutiny and criticsim.  It would be doing better if it had to compete with a semi-competent opposition and also if the SNP's core supporter base didn't just dismiss any complaints about its performance as "Unionist".  

I've got in-laws who are teachers and who recognise that the SNP's performance on Education is dreadful, but come the next election they'll put all that to one side and vote SNP anyway.  If that's the situation that we find ourselves in, where's the incentive for the SNP to imporve that performance and do anything but push for independence?  

From an existential political view, we're probably better if independence is achieved as that would at least faciliate genuine opposition to the Scottish government.  

And likewise you refer to weakness of the opposition - parties who will only have defence of the union and are the weaker for that. That is why independence will be what the country needs on the political side. It will force unionist parties to have a massive rethink on their thought processes and only on what is best for Scotland not about protecting its place in the union. And likewise it will have to see the SNP have rethinks as their main goal will have been accomplished. They may disband or likely splinter into another party or two but in the immediate aftermath I am pretty sure they will have to have a rethink on various things.
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Post by Samo on Thu 24 Sep 2020, 4:00 pm

So once again "Project Fear" is being proven to be actual reality as to avoid Kent being turned into the largest lorry park in Britain, theres going to be a de facto border put in place, and international hauliers will need a permit before being allowed into the county.

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