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Post by JuliusHMarx Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:39 am

First topic message reminder :

Tea anyone?

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Post by CaledonianCraig Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:13 pm

superflyweight wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
Samo wrote:

Ever feel like you've been sold down the river?

That happened around six years ago.
Tumbleweed Going to be funny watching the Sheltand Islands secede from Scotland...

Perhaps you need to read this:-

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/talk-shetland-independence-wide-mark-2968657

thumbsup

While it does approach the story with a good deal of sense and realism, it does throw up an interesting issue in its own right.  How does the SNP government, which itself demands greater powers from Westminster (and eventually of course, Independence), justify its continuing power grab and centralisation of government in the face of protest from local regions who want their own level of autonomy?

A bit of a stretch considering this is one and only instance of any sort that I have heard of any dissension whatsoever. If the situation ever occurs it will be crossed at that time by whoever happens to be in power at that time in what, I'd imagine would be an independent Scotland at that time. But all the same its refreshing that we've not heard Westminster-esque soundbytes coming out of Holyrood like you're too wee, you're too poor, now is not the time, there is no appetite etc etc etc.
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Post by superflyweight Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:38 pm

There's been plenty of dissension over the SNP's approach to centralisation. The centralisation of the Police, Fire Service and the ongoing council tax freeze have all had strong criticism at both a local and national level.

I'm just not sure that everybody appreciates the disconnect between asking for greater devolved powers from one body while taking local powers away from other bodies.

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Post by CaledonianCraig Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:20 pm

So much dissension that the SNP are on course to increase their seat count at next year's Scottish Elections. Now that says one of two things. Either the dissension is not,that strong at all or underlying it is but more people see voting for SNP as the ever-growing support for independence and will overlook those issues.
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Post by superflyweight Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:25 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:So much dissension that the SNP are on course to increase their seat count at next year's Scottish Elections. Now that says one of two things. Either the dissension is not,that strong at all or underlying it is but more people see voting for SNP as the ever-growing support for independence and will overlook those issues.

And you don't see the problem with that kind of blinkered approach to assessing the performance of a government?  A failure of policy is a failure of policy regardless of whether or not you support the end goal of the party in power.  

I don't think it's any different to people prepared to ignore the incompetence and lies of the Conservative government simply because they will "get Brexit done".

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Post by CaledonianCraig Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:26 pm

superflyweight wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:So much dissension that the SNP are on course to increase their seat count at next year's Scottish Elections. Now that says one of two things. Either the dissension is not,that strong at all or underlying it is but more people see voting for SNP as the ever-growing support for independence and will overlook those issues.

And you don't see the problem with that kind of blinkered approach to assessing the performance of a government?  A failure of policy is a failure of policy regardless of whether or not you support the end goal of the party in power.  

I don't think it's any different to people prepared to ignore the incompetence and lies of the Conservative government simply because they will "get Brexit done".

I have lived through many governments in my life in Scotland and in England and the SNP I'd put far above other governments I have lived under. Perfect? No. But better than the Tory and Labour governments.
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Post by superflyweight Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:43 am

Comparing against other governments is not the issue though. Blindly supporting and never criticising a government regardless of what it does because you believe in the end goal is not a healthy position to be in.

The SNP government has done ok up here, but there have been a number of failings which are deserving of real scrutiny and criticsim. It would be doing better if it had to compete with a semi-competent opposition and also if the SNP's core supporter base didn't just dismiss any complaints about its performance as "Unionist".

I've got in-laws who are teachers and who recognise that the SNP's performance on Education is dreadful, but come the next election they'll put all that to one side and vote SNP anyway. If that's the situation that we find ourselves in, where's the incentive for the SNP to imporve that performance and do anything but push for independence?

From an existential political view, we're probably better if independence is achieved as that would at least faciliate genuine opposition to the Scottish government.

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Post by lostinwales Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:03 am

Any government gets tired. Mistakes increase over time and are seldom forgotten, while so many achievements are taken for granted. Blair's labour government is a great example. Very popular and did many things, some good and some bad, but of course got worse over time. Current Tory gov does turn that on its head. They really can't seem to get anything right.

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Post by CaledonianCraig Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:28 am

superflyweight wrote:Comparing against other governments is not the issue though.  Blindly supporting and never criticising a government regardless of what it does because you believe in the end goal is not a healthy position to be in.  

The SNP government has done ok up here, but there have been a number of failings which are deserving of real scrutiny and criticsim.  It would be doing better if it had to compete with a semi-competent opposition and also if the SNP's core supporter base didn't just dismiss any complaints about its performance as "Unionist".  

I've got in-laws who are teachers and who recognise that the SNP's performance on Education is dreadful, but come the next election they'll put all that to one side and vote SNP anyway.  If that's the situation that we find ourselves in, where's the incentive for the SNP to imporve that performance and do anything but push for independence?  

From an existential political view, we're probably better if independence is achieved as that would at least faciliate genuine opposition to the Scottish government.  

And likewise you refer to weakness of the opposition - parties who will only have defence of the union and are the weaker for that. That is why independence will be what the country needs on the political side. It will force unionist parties to have a massive rethink on their thought processes and only on what is best for Scotland not about protecting its place in the union. And likewise it will have to see the SNP have rethinks as their main goal will have been accomplished. They may disband or likely splinter into another party or two but in the immediate aftermath I am pretty sure they will have to have a rethink on various things.
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Post by Samo Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:00 pm

So once again "Project Fear" is being proven to be actual reality as to avoid Kent being turned into the largest lorry park in Britain, theres going to be a de facto border put in place, and international hauliers will need a permit before being allowed into the county.

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Post by Hoonercat Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:14 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:For a Teacher you are very naive....

Quite charming in a way.

Read up on Biden and the Ukraine and get back to me...

Feel free to patronize me then....Start with how his Son with no qualifications ended up earning hundreds of thousands on a Ukranian oil Company board while Biden was VP..

Maybe they liked his smile.

He was a lawyer at one of the world's most prestigious law firms, served as vice chairman of Amtrak for 5 years and was chairman of the U.N. World Food Program. I'd hardly describe that as having no qualifications.

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Post by Duty281 Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:33 pm

Down to the final week and a bit to secure a trade agreement with the EU. Apparently there's a deadline of Tuesday the 1st of December to get it sorted by. Significant barriers over fishing and state aid rules still remain.

Globally speaking, the UK has agreed trade deals with 53 countries (the vast majority of which replicate existing EU trade deals), which will come into force on the 1st of January, the date when the UK will become an independent nation again.

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Post by Pr4wn Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:34 am

Duty281 wrote:Down to the final week and a bit to secure a trade agreement with the EU. Apparently there's a deadline of Tuesday the 1st of December to get it sorted by. Significant barriers over fishing and state aid rules still remain.

Globally speaking, the UK has agreed trade deals with 53 countries (the vast majority of which replicate existing EU trade deals), which will come into force on the 1st of January, the date when the UK will become an independent nation again.

The UK is already an independent nation. Has been for hundreds of years.

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Post by Samo Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:47 am

The Governor of the Bank of England is warning that a No-Deal Brexit will do more long term economic harm than Covid.

If you still believe this is an appropriate course of action because “Brexit must be delivered” then hell mend you. Self imposed economic damage worse than an actual plague but its fine because we’ve got out blue passports back.

Oh, and Nissan are planning to shut their plant in Sunderland costing about 7000 people their job. Well done.

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Post by superflyweight Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:38 am

Samo wrote:The Governor of the Bank of England is warning that a No-Deal Brexit will do more long term economic harm than Covid.

If you still believe this is an appropriate course of action because “Brexit must be delivered” then hell mend you. Self imposed economic damage worse than an actual plague but its fine because we’ve got out blue passports back.

Oh, and Nissan are planning to shut their plant in Sunderland costing about 7000 people their job. Well done.

Yeah, but Duty gets to dream that we'll once again be living in a fairytale image of an England of long hot summers, Pimms and lashings of freshly made jam at the Summer fete, thrashing the Aussies at cricket, pints of bitter, no blacks and the sight of Spitfires flying overhead while Elgar's Nimrod blasts out over the wireless and alll the other nonsense that exists only in the minds of the ERG and Farage.

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Post by BamBam Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:15 am

Yes but iMiGrAyShUn

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue Dec 01, 2020 2:25 pm

Poll out the other day with an overwhelming majority saying they would vote to stay in Europe if the referendum was now..

Bless them... Factories closing or just about to...Perhaps the realisation Johnny Foreigner isn't to blame for everything wrong in the World is dawning on them..

Maybe also the realisation Farage is a self centred Narcissist with a bank account that could survive a sustained Frost.

Doubt it though...these false Messiahs are great at suckering the ignorant..

Still stick it to Fritz in January and then watch Fritz have the last laugh.

It won't be Farage or Monks crying.

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Post by MrInvisible Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:37 pm

No doubt Johnson and his inner-circle, and some of the seasoned Westminster journalists get a thrill out of seeing the Brexit talks go to the wire, with UK at real risk of a no-deal and all the disruption (food and medicine shortages, delays at borders, etc) that entails, but for the rest of us it's a real headache and worry, with jobs and lives at stake.

The stupidity and stubborn-ness of refusing to extent the transition period whilst we're dealing with the Covid pandemic and its economic fallout knows no bounds.  All because 'its not what the people voted for' as Jill in Stoke on Trent doesn't like hearing Polish in the shops and Barry in Basildon thinks we should deport all asylum seekers.

Completely fed up with how the Brexiteer cult has been allowed to dominate British politics for the last 5 years.  A Norway + style deal could have satisfied both Remainers and many Brexiters, but no, it's not enough for Farage and the ERG so we can't have that.  At least the Scots have a potential way out of this depressing mess - I wish them all the best with the inevitable divorce from UK.

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Post by CaledonianCraig Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:21 pm

The secret is out about Brexit. It is not the golden egg Brexiteers proclaim. There will be no major trade deal with the US that they are banking on as there is no need or call for it in the States and further afield trade deals are not viable for fruit and such life that needs delivered fresh. Any goods coming from Europe such as food and fruit will either now not get here or be priced up massively due to tarifs hitting the UK public in the pocket. And UK manufacturers will find their goods sales to Europe slump massively. Why did England and Wales vote for Bexit again?

Don't just listen to me but this former advisor to the Tory government:-

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1320721046358642689
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Post by Duty281 Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:29 pm

MrInvisible wrote:A Norway + style deal could have satisfied both Remainers and many Brexiters, but no, it's not enough for Farage and the ERG so we can't have that. .

Can't have it because it was voted down in Parliament, at least, twice. Not sure why anyone would be satisfied with a half-in, half-out measure, like Norway have, personally.

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:37 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:The secret is out about Brexit. It is not the golden egg Brexiteers proclaim. There will be no major trade deal with the US that they are banking on as there is no need or call for it in the States and further afield trade deals are not viable for fruit and such life that needs delivered fresh. Any goods coming from Europe such as food and fruit will either now not get here or be priced up massively due to tarifs hitting the UK public in the pocket. And UK manufacturers will find their goods sales to Europe slump massively. Why did England and Wales vote for Bexit again?

Don't just listen to me but this former advisor to the Tory government:-

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1320721046358642689

You may want to check the origin of your fruit in future Craig.

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Post by Samo Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:57 pm

Duty281 wrote:
MrInvisible wrote:A Norway + style deal could have satisfied both Remainers and many Brexiters, but no, it's not enough for Farage and the ERG so we can't have that. .

Can't have it because it was voted down in Parliament, at least, twice. Not sure why anyone would be satisfied with a half-in, half-out measure, like Norway have, personally.

Not sure why anyone would be satisfied by a country imposing entirely avoidable economic sanctions on itself personally, but here we are.

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Post by Pr4wn Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:05 pm

A deal will happen. Obviously no deal would be a complete disaster for the UK. 90% of the exported meat from British livestock farms goes to the EU. The carmakers have all said that they will shut up shop and leave if there's no deal. Boris simply has to get one done because he doesn't want to be known as the PM that jumped off the Brexit no deal cliff. He cares about himself and his legacy more than anything else.

What he's try to do now is save face. Yes, he'll have to make a lot of concessions to strike a deal, as evidenced by them dropping the illegal Internal Market Bill today. He'll desperately be trying to work with his EU counterparts to allow them what they want while framing it as a compromise so that it's more palatable to the Brexit zealots in his party.

Here's to being an independent nation again, eh?

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Post by Duty281 Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:14 pm

Pr4wn wrote:Yes, he'll have to make a lot of concessions to strike a deal, as evidenced by them dropping the illegal Internal Market Bill today.

The Bill wasn't dropped, a few controversial clauses were removed.

The Tories never had any intention of following through on these clauses, they just inserted them so that when they were removed they could say 'we've made a concession, now can the EU give a concession to our position?' Like the EU making ludicrously high demands on fishing access, which they had no intention of following through on.

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Post by Pr4wn Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:49 pm

And what I'm saying is that you're giving them far too much credit. They're removing these clauses to save face, not to strengthen any negotiating position.

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Post by BamBam Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:09 pm

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1336333265045635072?s=20

Stupendous news for all the very rich, economically prosperous leave voters in South Wales, who definitely didn't want any more investment in the area.

Great work all around

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Post by JuliusHMarx Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:24 pm

BamBam wrote:https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1336333265045635072?s=20

Stupendous news for all the very rich, economically prosperous leave voters in South Wales, who definitely didn't want any more investment in the area.

Great work all around

"The business case for Hambach was overwhelming..." - 'cos, like, they are in the EU and the UK aren't.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:04 pm

If ChangeUK and the Lib Dems had agreed to a Govt of Unity last year rather than playing politics we could be in the Custom's Union at the very least with a deal.

Very sad.

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:22 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:If ChangeUK and the Lib Dems had agreed to a Govt of Unity last year rather than playing politics we could be in the Custom's Union at the very least with a deal.

Very sad.

Any such union would have failed because of Corbyn and his bone headed reluctance to compromise thus a general election and the current situation anyway.

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Post by Samo Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:12 am

Another huge win for Brexit as Ineos boss and vocal Brexit supporting Poopie Sir Jim Ratcliffe announces that their new car - a spiritual successor to the Land Rover Defender - will be built in France rather than Bridgend in Wales. This comes a few months after he became the latest in a long line of Brexit supporting elites who have upsticks and moved out of the UK - despite championing Brexit and hailing it as a brilliant opportunity.

I dont know about you, but if I were a Leave voter I'd be pretty angry right about now.

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Post by Pr4wn Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:20 am

I believe he's domiciled in Monaco now. What a patriot.

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Post by BamBam Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:47 am

Samo wrote:

I dont know about you, but if I were a Leave voter I'd be pretty angry right about now.

Something something "rEmOaNeRs", something something "sOvErEiGnTy"

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Post by lostinwales Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:50 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:If ChangeUK and the Lib Dems had agreed to a Govt of Unity last year rather than playing politics we could be in the Custom's Union at the very least with a deal.

Very sad.

That attempt failed because of Corbyn's intransigence. The only chance it had of working would have been if it could have been lead by a compromise candidate, a grey beard who had the smarts to hold things together for as long as necessary but not hang around too long. Corbyn had the beard but nothing else, and to be honest his attempts in this direction felt more like a power grab. Little evidence that he'd have gone in a different direction over Brexit anyway.

Given that a large proportion of Change UK were Labour MP's who had left because of Corbyn what honestly were the chances that they would choose to go back under his leadership?

Of course Corbyn isn't the sole reason we have Brexit, but he has more than his fair share of responsibility.

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Post by lostinwales Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:51 am

BamBam wrote:
Samo wrote:

I dont know about you, but if I were a Leave voter I'd be pretty angry right about now.

Something something "rEmOaNeRs", something something "sOvErEiGnTy"

There is a hell of a lot of 'if only the remainers had supported X or Y we would have a deal' going on.

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Post by dummy_half Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:50 am

How about 'If David Cameron had had a backbone, we'd not have got into this mess in the first place'? Oh, and the insanity of the pre-referendum pledge to go to Brussels and get us a better deal, when we were already in a disproportionately strong position as a member state - no way were the EU going to give us anything substantially better than we already had.

The oddity of the politics is that Boris isn't really a Leaver by ideology, simply an opportunist, while Corbyn really was but found himself leading a party dominated by remainers.

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Post by lostinwales Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:58 am

Just saw this

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/dec/09/uk-drops-eu-tariffs-on-boeing-as-it-seeks-post-brexit-trade-deal-with-us-joe-biden

Maybe that is a price worth paying but I can't see it going down too well with what is left of our aerospace industry.

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Post by CaledonianCraig Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:04 pm

And even at the 11th hour we have the Tory lies beaming out. Boris says they can still get an Australia-type Deal and tries painting it up as something of value. Ex-Australian PM who negotiated that deal says it is a bad deal and not something we should be wanting. Says it all.
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Post by Pr4wn Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:00 pm

Australia trade on WTO terms though, no? So saying "Australia-style" is just like saying "Mongolia-style" isn't it?

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Post by lostinwales Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:08 pm

Pr4wn wrote:Australia trade on WTO terms though, no? So saying "Australia-style" is just like saying "Mongolia-style" isn't it?

It is just another name for no-deal.

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Post by Duty281 Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:14 pm

Pr4wn wrote:Australia trade on WTO terms though, no? So saying "Australia-style" is just like saying "Mongolia-style" isn't it?

Yes, it should be called 'no-deal' not an 'Australian-type deal'. While Australia does most of its trade with the EU on WTO terms, it does have a small series of agreements on things such as wine, so it would actually be properly inaccurate to say an 'Australian-type deal' as the UK wouldn't have any such agreements under a 'no-deal' exit.

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Post by superflyweight Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:46 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Australia trade on WTO terms though, no? So saying "Australia-style" is just like saying "Mongolia-style" isn't it?

Yes, it should be called 'no-deal' not an 'Australian-type deal'. While Australia does most of its trade with the EU on WTO terms, it does have a small series of agreements on things such as wine, so it would actually be properly inaccurate to say an 'Australian-type deal' as the UK wouldn't have any such agreements under a 'no-deal' exit.

Are you happy now?

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Post by CaledonianCraig Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:45 pm

The bottom line is the man that negotiated the Australia deal with the EU says it is not something he'd wish for the British people yet that is what we are getting. The US trade deals is a humungous white elephant according to an ex-financial advisor to the Tories and so you see we have walked away from our biggest trade deals and are left with crumbs that would not sustain a houseful of mice.

-------

https://www.606v2.com/viewtopic.php?t=69929
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Brexit - Page 20 Empty Re: Brexit

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