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England's Winter

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 16 Sep 2019, 2:22 pm

First topic message reminder :

New Zealand

T20 Internationals

Friday November 1st - Christchurch
Sunday November 3rd - Wellington
Tuesday November 5th - Nelson
Friday November 8th - Napier
Sunday November 10th - Auckland

Squad
Eoin Morgan (Middlesex) captain
Jonny Bairstow (Yorkshire)
Tom Banton (Somerset)
Sam Billings (Kent)
Pat Brown (Worcestershire)
Sam Curran (Surrey)
Tom Curran (Surrey)
Joe Denly (Kent)
Lewis Gregory (Somerset)
Chris Jordan (Sussex)
Saqib Mahmood (Lancashire)
Dawid Malan (Middlesex)
Matt Parkinson (Lancashire)
Adil Rashid (Yorkshire)
James Vince (Hampshire)


Tests

Wednesday November 20th - Tauranga
Thursday November 28th - Hamilton

Squad
Joe Root (Yorkshire) captain
Jofra Archer (Sussex)
Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire)
Rory Burns (Surrey)
Jos Buttler (Lancashire)
Zak Crawley (Kent)
Sam Curran (Surrey)
Joe Denly (Kent)
Jack Leach (Somerset)
Saqib Mahmood (Lancashire)
Matthew Parkinson (Lancashire)
Ollie Pope (Surrey)
Dominic Sibley (Warwickshire)
Ben Stokes (Durham)
Chris Woakes (Warwickshire)



South Africa

Tests

Thursday 26th December - Centurion
Friday January 3rd - Cape Town
Thursday January 16th - Port Elizabeth
Friday January 24th - Johannesburg

Squad
TBC


ODI
Tuesday 4th February - Cape Town
Friday 7th February - Durban
Sunday 9th February - Johannesburg

Squad
TBC



T20 Internationals

Wednesday 12th February - East London
Friday 14th February - Durban
Sunday 16th February - Centurion


Sri Lanka

March 7th - Warm up 1, Katunayake (3 day)
March 12th - Warm up 2, Colombo (3 day)
March 19th - 1st Test, Galle
March 27th - 2nd Test, Colombo


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Post by dummy_half on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 1:50 pm

Big session and big chance for Pope to prove his worth - really need to get through for the loss of no more than one wicket if we want to post a challenging target.

Perception so far is that we're a wicket too many down, and that we keep getting almost back to a good position and then another set batsman is chipped out.

It's fair to say that this England line up isn't the strongest they've ever put out - could carry one of the top 3 with Burns and A N Other. Root and Stokes are definitely test quality, Pope may be but is very young, then the keeper spot is unsettled (Buttler, Bairstow, Foakes?), Sam Curran is a work in progress especially as a Test bowler (a bit more pace would make him much more challenging - should come as he matures), Broad's still a good bowler, but it remains to be seen whether Anderson can get back to his top form. And then there's the spinner / fifth seamer conundrum.

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Post by alfie on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 2:03 pm

Quite like what I'm seeing from Pope so far today...playing sensibly , looking to score when the chance presents (and it has to be said SA aren't providing many free hits)
172/4 is a bit of an advance as Stokes puts one into the stands clap

Important partnership. Slow scoring means they won't have a huge score on the board when the second new ball arrives...would really hope to have these two still together when it does but that is a way off yet...

Get the feeling Stokes is itching to get after the bowling a bit now.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 2:09 pm

dummy_half wrote:Big session and big chance for Pope to prove his worth - really need to get through for the loss of no more than one wicket if we want to post a challenging target.

Perception so far is that we're a wicket too many down, and that we keep getting almost back to a good position and then another set batsman is chipped out.

It's fair to say that this England line up isn't the strongest they've ever put out - could carry one of the top 3 with Burns and A N Other. Root and Stokes are definitely test quality, Pope may be but is very young, then the keeper spot is unsettled (Buttler, Bairstow, Foakes?), Sam Curran is a work in progress especially as a Test bowler (a bit more pace would make him much more challenging - should come as he matures), Broad's still a good bowler, but it remains to be seen whether Anderson can get back to his top form. And then there's the spinner / fifth seamer conundrum.

Agreed.

Add in a dose of whatever the Aussies have been feeding Labuschange and they could suddenly look a lot different. But right now the issues in the team they've been able to carry are being exposed by having some genuine weak links thrust upon them.

And in this test its not a disastrous position yet, but it just has an air of inevitability about it. Its hard to see England not failing when they keep doing it.
Pope and Stokes are hauling the position back a bit here, and I fully admit some of my pessimism is just that, but still they are a fair chunk behind a position of strength.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 2:11 pm

alfie wrote:
Get the feeling Stokes is itching to get after the bowling a bit now.

Worth making hay while they can if they can temper that against undue risk, as you note when the new ball does come they could end up back in their shells and or out pretty cheaply. Taking the spinner apart also leaves SA having to choose to put two seamers on and not have them fresh for that new ball, or turn to absolute part timers. Itll look bad if Stoke gets out trying to hit the spinner, but he is offering the runs and England need them.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 2:13 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
dummy_half wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Denly now 46 balls without a run

First day of a test match I have no problem with that as long as he stays in. Too often in the last few years we've had players who would try too hard to score rather than just keep their wicket. Also, Root's been going pretty well at the other end, so the score board generally is moving forwards

This is going to look better with hindsight (sorry I was out getting lunch!) - but there's a difference between digging in through a spell of really good bowling and just building unnecessary pressure through lack of intent. Denly's gone a bit too Nick Compton in that innings, just allowed Maharaj to bowl at him, the ball isn't turning, and now England are really behind as he's out to a bang average delivery.

Whilst there is obviously no need to be Jason Roy-esque England, just sitting in and waiting for one to get you out isn't the way to go either. It's a very fine balance to strike!!

Pope here showing what I mean - taking some quick singles down to mid on off Maharaj, nothing stupid but still looking to score rather than just allowing him to bowl maidens
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Post by alfie on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 2:13 pm

Narrow escape for Pope then ! Was a bit worried when I saw that replay...but umpires call was on his side and to be fair if the tracking was accurate he'd have been unlucky to be given out for that.
Think he prefers facing the pace though.

Aargh ! Stokes throws it away ! Just as he was getting into gear...trouble now.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 2:14 pm

Oh Ben
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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 2:15 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Oh Ben

Hmm I called this on the spinner but yes...oh. All the good work undone.

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Post by alfie on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 2:23 pm

No big partnerships ...everyone - except Crawley - getting in ; no one going on. Some good tight bowling but you'd think they should have done better than this.

May be a bit more in this for the bowlers than was first thought ; but it has been the pace of Nortje that has looked most dangerous : might be the wrong game for Archer to have got himself crocked ?

Buttler starting brightly : he's due some runs so hopefully...

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Post by alfie on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 2:37 pm

200 up at least...

Glad to see Buttler playing his natural game : reckon he's a better player this way than trying to bat time. Bit of luck needed sometimes - dropped at short cover already ; but it puts a bit of pressure back on the bowlers. Unfortunately Pope seems a bit bogged down at the moment - perhaps too conscious of the wickets column ?
But the run rate has ticked up.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 2:43 pm

BBC aren't too impressed with Buttlers approach but this is what he's in the team for, it's the failings of the top order to kick on that see us in this position.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 2:47 pm

Agree with Alfie/Soul - adding some runs before the new ball is crucial, and counter attacking keeper is Buttler's role. Lest we forget, the 1st test really turned in SA's favour when De Kock did similar in the 1st dig there.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 2:49 pm

It was also the right thing for Stokes to do of course.  

But position as it is and Buttlers poor form it makes as much sense to go for gold as try to block out.

Either way itll take a hell of an innings to get England back into the game

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 2:53 pm

Guess we're going to find out tomorrow if England have royally c0cked this up, or if in fact this is a pitch where "you're never really in"

I have a strong hunch it's the former...
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Post by alfie on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 2:55 pm

Unfortunately it hasn't lasted ...Buttler edges behind , yet another player hasn't gone on.
No complaints about his approach though : at least he added some quick runs. In truth he's more likely to do something useful playing like that than messing about as he doesn't really have a great defensive technique in the red ball game. Leaves SA well on top though.
At 221/6 it's the Surrey youngsters now carrying the hopes of the side...

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Post by alfie on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 3:02 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Guess we're going to find out tomorrow if England have royally c0cked this up, or if in fact this is a pitch where "you're never really in"

I have a strong hunch it's the former...

Suspect you are right , Olly. But I think there might be a little bit there for the bowlers - provided it doesn't go completely dead overnight. There have been a few balls that have seemed to surprise the batsmen : the short stuff that first discomfited and then did for Root for example.

Hope the tail can wag here rather than the limp display at Centurion .

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 3:03 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Guess we're going to find out tomorrow if England have royally c0cked this up, or if in fact this is a pitch where "you're never really in"

I have a strong hunch it's the former...

Likely to be the former, it’s a good batting pitch no doubt, but South Africa’s batting line up isn’t the strongest so  not entirely out of the question England can get back into it.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 3:07 pm

Whoops.

Still, Curran has broken the spell of England players getting starts and going nowhere. He just went nowhere.

Anderson - you’re bowling tonight, me old china.

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Post by guildfordbat on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 3:08 pm

Not able to watch currently but following progress (or lack of it). From the stats today and just as in the first Test, South Africa's bowlers seem to all be doing an effective job and bowling as a unit. No (obvious) weak links.

Kiss of death probably but I do rate Pope highly from seeing quite a lot of his performances in 2018. It was his and Burns' runs (circa a combined 3,000) together with Morkel's wickets than won Surrey the Championship that year. His injury cost us dear in 2019. He's also batting in his best position for England at number 6.

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Post by alfie on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 3:10 pm

Oh dear ! First Sam Curran plays a lovely drive for four...then he leaves one and loses his off stump !
Came back a bit ; but really... He seemed surprised. Did he think it was going over ?

Even so Pretorius is doing a bit with a seventy eight over old ball so maybe there is something there for the seamer ?

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 3:13 pm

185/4 to 231/8 - are Sky showing repeats?

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Post by alfie on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 3:13 pm

Anyway England will be bowling soon Smile

Bess not troubling scorers or wasting anyone's time.

231/8 . Ugh. Pope needs to start farming the strike.

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Post by VTR on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 3:18 pm

This is such a limp team at the minute. Once things get slightly tough, the whole thing falls apart incredibly quickly. It's down to the old campaigners Anderson and Broad to rescue this again. Not out of the question given the SA batting lineup, but the batting has been dreadful yet again

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 3:23 pm

I’ve surely seen it all now as Broad gets his bat stuck in his pad, meaning a Rabada yorker cleans him up.

England going to be 100-150 short on a good pitch.

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Post by alfie on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 3:26 pm

Not going to get even 250 as Broad is cleaned up...not exactly getting behind it Smile

Very disappointing effort. Not dead yet : SA will have to bat last (provided England can put up a useful second innings !) : but they're going to have to bowl out of their skins...


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Post by Duty281 on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 3:27 pm

alfie wrote:Not going to get even 250 as Broad is cleaned up...not exactly getting behind it Smile

Very disappointing effort.  Not dead yet : SA will have to bat last (provided England can put up a useful second innings !) : but they're going to have to bowl out of their skins...


Well the second innings effort normally goes better for England! It’s the useless first innings that often leaves them with too much to do.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 3:30 pm

Christ blink and you miss it end to the innings after Denly got roundly hammered for seeing off a few overs.

Fast or slow England are just not a good side at the moment are they.

Except possibly Pope who must be wondering what was going on around him.

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Post by alfie on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 3:35 pm

Pope being the bright spot for the day...

Doing a sensible job here : couple of innovative shots , trying to add a few with Jimmy...up to 244 now : every run helps !

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Post by alfie on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 3:39 pm

Fifty for Pope ...no , just 49... But two useful boundaries have put up the 250 thumbsup

Can Jimmy get him back on strike ? Or survive a Rabada over ?

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 3:47 pm

Another positive.....cricinfo carrying the headline "England ban football"


( the unkind amongst us would say they already banned playing cricket)

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Post by alfie on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 3:49 pm

Excellent fifty for Pope clap

Glad I've stayed up to watch this handy last wicket stand. Can they bat out the day now ?

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Post by alfie on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 3:53 pm

261. No... Pope is reprieved ! Big no ball Smile

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Post by Afro on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 3:54 pm

How strange that the new player with a first class average in the 50s looks the part in tests, whilst the two newbies with an average in the 30s look a bit out of their depth. Almost as if their first class averages reflect their batting ability in some way Whistle
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Post by kingraf on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 4:00 pm

Well, that final wicket went according to plan. Scratched around for long enough without major cost and we don't have to bat tonight. Pretty successful day overall.
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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 4:00 pm

Afro wrote:How strange that the new player with a first class average in the 50s looks the part in tests, whilst the two newbies with an average in the 30s look a bit out of their depth. Almost as if their first class averages reflect their batting ability in some way Whistle

That's not always the case in fairness, it's why Hick and Ramprakash couldn't cement a test place whereas Vaughan and Trescothick did off the back off a modest FC record.

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Post by alfie on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 4:02 pm

Average day one score here is apparently 268/9. They're getting close to that now...

And by the way Jimmy is looking better in defence than Stuart Broad these days . Might have to swap places in the order Smile

SA day for sure but 262/9 is better than it looked half an hour ago ! Bat on tomorrow...

Well done your Holiness thumbsup Goodnight all...

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 4:03 pm

Spirited effort from Pope. Well done to him. South Africa’s bowling unit were very good today, even if England batted poorly again.

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Post by guildfordbat on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 4:05 pm

alfie wrote:Average day one score here is apparently 268/9.  They're getting close to that now...

And by the way Jimmy is looking better in defence than Stuart Broad these days . Might have to swap places in the order Smile

SA day for sure but 262/9 is better than it looked half an hour ago !  Bat on tomorrow...

Well done your Holiness thumbsup   Goodnight all...

Glad to see you've done your prep, Alfie. Smile Sleep well.

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Post by Afro on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 4:10 pm

alfie wrote:Average day one score here is apparently 268/9.  They're getting close to that now...


Given the game is going according to that stat so far, what's the average for day 2?
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Post by protea438 on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 4:10 pm

You know England are in town when there is a standing ovation for a 50 Whistle

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 4:14 pm

protea438 wrote:You know England are in town when there is a standing ovation for a 50 Whistle

Who won in 2016?

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Post by Afro on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 4:15 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
protea438 wrote:You know England are in town when there is a standing ovation for a 50 Whistle

Who won in 2016?

Wasn't it a draw where we collapsed in the second innings?
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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 4:16 pm

Afro wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
protea438 wrote:You know England are in town when there is a standing ovation for a 50 Whistle

Who won in 2016?

Wasn't it a draw where we collapsed in the second innings?

I meant the 2-1 series win.

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Post by protea438 on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 4:21 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
Afro wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
protea438 wrote:You know England are in town when there is a standing ovation for a 50 Whistle

Who won in 2016?

Wasn't it a draw where we collapsed in the second innings?

I meant the 2-1 series win.

Whats your point, means squat when giving standing ovations for what most of the cricketing world thinks is nothing special

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Post by VTR on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 4:25 pm

Pretty sure the standing ovation was for Jimmy's forward defensive. Majestic batting

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Post by dummy_half on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 4:28 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
Afro wrote:How strange that the new player with a first class average in the 50s looks the part in tests, whilst the two newbies with an average in the 30s look a bit out of their depth. Almost as if their first class averages reflect their batting ability in some way Whistle

That's not always the case in fairness, it's why Hick and Ramprakash couldn't cement a test place whereas Vaughan and Trescothick did off the back off a modest FC record.

From your comment above, I just took a look at James Vince's career, thinking he was another that averaged at least well into the 40s in FC cricket, but was surprised to see that he also only averages 38.

My recollection is that both Vaughan and Trescothick had impressed in age group cricket, and so were promoted to the Test side more on the strength of that than on their less than stellar FC performances to that time. Going back a bit further, David Gower was another selected more because of the appearance of skill rather than an outstanding county record - indeed, at the end of his career his FC average was 40 compared with 44 in Tests.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 4:29 pm

protea438 wrote:You know England are in town when there is a standing ovation for a 50 Whistle

Or when the home fans get outnumbered. Whistle

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 4:29 pm

VTR wrote:Pretty sure the standing ovation was for Jimmy's forward defensive. Majestic batting

The Burnley Lara back to his belligerent best this evening. What a player
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Post by sirfredperry on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 4:44 pm

England's score must be judged on the basis that this is one of the least-experienced and weakest batting line-ups England have ever gone into a Test with.

Burns was at least making something of a fist of Test cricket before his idiotic injury. Bairstow has been in poor form of late, but has made Test centuries as well as thousands of runs at Test level. Both are not playing, leaving a flimsy batting order.

262 may not be such a bad score, although it looks far from enough on paper.




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Post by king_carlos on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 5:16 pm

A very England performance. 6 of the top 7 getting in but only one of them making a 50. Hopefully Pope can have some fun tomorrow and edge the score up towards 280-300.

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