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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Nov 2019, 8:17 am

First topic message reminder :

So a few comments I've lifted from the guardian from Eddie Jones. Pretty much as you'd expect in terms of looking ahead to the next challenge.
“I tell you what happens to teams – they evolve,” Jones said. “Some guys will lose desire, some guys will lose fitness, some guys will get injuries and there’ll be young guys come through. So this team is finished now. There will be a new team made. We’ll make a new team for the Six Nations and that new team for the Six Nations will be the basis of going to the next World Cup.'

Apparently the team at the weekend is the youngest to appear in a WC final so there won't be 15 new guys coming in but clearly a few are coming to the end. Are there particular areas or players jones will be looking at?

For me this bunch stand a decent chance in and around the squad to get more caps soon. Genge, Painter, Willis, Dombrandt, Smith, spencer, Robson and a outside chance of Mullins at full back.

Guys that are all young enough to be around for years to come but all with great potential. Perhaps not as good/proven as some who will step back but hugely talented.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 03 Jan 2020, 9:52 am

Cumbrian wrote:For what it is worth, I see a back-row of Jack Willis, Tom Curry and Alex Dombrandt as being a superb back-row going forward longer term.

You could have the following marra. Theres a host of options...Eddie needs to earn his money and pick the best combo.

6 Ted Hill
7 Sam Underhill
8 Zach Mercer

6 Ben Curry
7 Earl
8 Hughes

6 Mark Wilson
7 Ludlum
8 Simmonds

6 Shields
7 Kvesic
8 Vunipola

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Post by Cumbrian Fri 03 Jan 2020, 10:11 am

Aye, now openside is sorted we can go back to retro problems like the second-row, will be like the mid/late 2000s again!
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Post by Cumbrian Fri 03 Jan 2020, 10:24 am

I am only half joking about that too, by the next world cup three out of four of our current locks will be well into their early 30s. Lawes and Launchbury have had long and tough careers, with significant time on the treatment table, I worry what it means for their longevity.
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Post by lostinwales Fri 03 Jan 2020, 10:30 am

Cumbrian wrote:I am only half joking about that too, by the next world cup three out of four of our current locks will be well into their early 30s.  Lawes and Launchbury have had long and tough careers, with significant time on the treatment table, I worry what it means for their longevity.

Yes but I don't think we are too badly off. The problem with having players of the likes of Itoje, Manu and Curry is that you start taking it for granted that the next superstar is going to arrive fully formed at 20 yrs old, when its those guys who are just not normal.

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Post by Cumbrian Fri 03 Jan 2020, 10:59 am

True enough, I suppose what I am thinking is that the stars never seem to truly align for England. The second row is about the best we've ever had depth (and indeed possibly talent) wise, but the balance of the back-row has been off and there was a dearth of talent. Now the back-row is sorting itself, the sun seems to be setting on this era of second rowers!
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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 03 Jan 2020, 11:23 am

i think we're fine with lock to be honest. And i dont like the idea of focus solely on the world cup.

Players like Lawes, Kruis etc are in there until the kids are better. If they are on the wane, then you move them out. The team evolves itself and the world cup should look after it self.

Lets win the 6n / Grand slam this year...then focus on the AI's etc.

Lawes
Kruis
Itoje
Isiekwe - He's a big lump and i think he'll come through nicely.
Joel Kpoku (off to saints) looks a monstrous lad...

Plus others will come through...

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Post by Gooseberry Fri 03 Jan 2020, 11:31 am

lostinwales wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:I am only half joking about that too, by the next world cup three out of four of our current locks will be well into their early 30s.  Lawes and Launchbury have had long and tough careers, with significant time on the treatment table, I worry what it means for their longevity.

Yes but I don't think we are too badly off. The problem with having players of the likes of Itoje, Manu and Curry is that you start taking it for granted that the next superstar is going to arrive fully formed at 20 yrs old, when its those guys who are just not normal.


Its fair to say though that the levels of professionalism in specialist school/college and academy rugby for teens (plus the better supported England age grade teams) now means England are seeing 18 year olds premiership ready" both in terms of ball skills and physicality even for forwards in a way they wouldnt have done a decade ago. The idea that players need 4 years to "fill out" is gone. Players are often at their physical best at that 20 point now, when they are still young enough to be relatively unhampered by injury and at the height of their aerobic potential. Manu was an absolute freak being test ready at 18 (he played in the Tigers win over world and sanzar champs SA as his first ever pro fixture), but again had that rugby upbringing from a very early age. 

Theres long been a big churn of promising players coming through age grade rugby. I remember similar conversations about the Haskell/Narraway/Lund/Croft/Easter/Rees/Wood etc generation, it seemed at the time that England were suddenly producing and endless supply of modern big mobile backrows who would take them up a level and serve them for a decade plus....
the problem then is the same one as now, how many of them can step up from being exciting prospects who make a splash in their late teens/early 20s on the Premiership to being test stars worthy of a place in a team that aspires to be number one in the world? 
Kvesic is perhaps a case in point. I was surprised to see hes still only 27...seems hes been on the fringes for England forever, and was being groomed as far back as the Johnson era to be the answer to Englands perceived lack of a "proper" 7 whilst tearing it up for the Under 20s. Despite that hes only managed 4 caps and never really made an impression on test rugby, Jones has sniffed around him but maybe just doesn't want that type of player but really doesn't seem to rate him that highly despite being at his theoretical peak in terms of balancing fitness and experience. Hes had all the opportunities to grow into the player he promised to be, but is still just good rather than great. 
The struggles to find number 8s....Easter did well in patches, Morgan looked like he was going to be good (where even is he now?) but its only Vunipola who (between injuries) has stood up to the level England aspire to. England haven't found anyone to pressure his spot or offer an adequate fill in when hes out, Hughes really has some way to go to bridge that gap IMO. 

Its maybe a pessimistic view but I think whilst England have gotten increasingly good at producing high quality players onto the club circuit through the academies and age grade systems they've tended to stall and not keep pushing on from that in the way you see from New Zealanders.  We have got better at teaching rugby skills and developing the physiques of the kids through offering a much higher level of school and college age rugby to mirror the Kiwi system, but once out of the the elite system and premiership still isnt doing enough to keep that competition and progression going. In terms of player numbers England have always been in a good place, but in terms of genuine stars? Those team of the decade posts sum it up, its struggle to find a token English player to put in (although Id make a controversial case for Manu, whilst he missed half a decade through injury and suspension his consistency of performance and impact on games whilst on the pitch has been incredible, had England not stuffed up the world cup final he'd be on there and marrying a minor royal).

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Post by Gooseberry Fri 03 Jan 2020, 11:44 am

Cumbrian wrote:True enough, I suppose what I am thinking is that the stars never seem to truly align for England.  The second row is about the best we've ever had depth (and indeed possibly talent) wise, but the balance of the back-row has been off and there was a dearth of talent.  Now the back-row is sorting itself, the sun seems to be setting on this era of second rowers!

I guess Kruis and Launchberry will be pushing the end of their careers for the next world cup, and its a real stretch for Lawes to make it but Itoje is still a kid. Isikwe would have been capped by now if he hadnt been sat behind such a strong quartet, and is well placed to carry the torch on in the short term to keep competition strong. So certainly looking forward to the next world cup you dont need to go fishing for names, and two of those will still be around for the long term after it. if theres an apparent dearth of talent is that partly because all the discussion and focus has been on those four, its been near impossible for anyone else to get into a test squad under Jones and even Itoje had to rely on injuries to force his way into the side.

Id say of all the positions aside from wing its one that England really don't have concerns over depth in. There may be a lot of prospects for the back row, but to my mind most are still just that ..players with a bit of promise and potential, behind Curry the occasionally fit BVP and Underhill I'm less convinced England have players who would jump straight in and cut it at the highest test level ( happy to be proven wrong of course!) . Kruis, Launchberry, Itoje and Isikwe to me are players who are good enough now...and theres others out their who could be challenging that group too.

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Post by lostinwales Fri 03 Jan 2020, 12:15 pm

I still wonder if a couple of years at pro level can be very important for many players however talented and fully formed they are at 20. It isn't a question of physical strength, skills and aerobic capacity so much as toughness.

Too many who come through at that age seem to fall prey to injury problems.

The bonus with a player like Lawes these days is that he doesn't lose so much game time to injuries any more even if he's increasingly held together with sticky tape.

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Post by Recwatcher16 Fri 03 Jan 2020, 12:50 pm

[quote="GeordieFalcon"]
Cumbrian wrote:For what it is worth, I see a back-row of Jack Willis, Tom Curry and Alex Dombrandt as being a superb back-row going forward longer term.

You could have the following marra. Theres a host of options...Eddie needs to earn his money and pick the best combo.

6 Ted Hill
7 Sam Underhill
8 Zach Mercer

6 Ben Curry
7 Earl
8 Hughes

6 Mark Wilson
7 Ludlum
8 Simmonds

6 Shields
7 Kvesic
8 Vunipola

Very encouraging list of back row names and would suggest Ludlow at Gloucester & Chisholm at Quins - both underated, to the list.
From a bias perspective, Bath have Tom Ellis who has also been on the fringes of England training squads & Bayliss, previously an England U20 captain, now has a lot of Premiership experience and still very young. Watch out for young Miles Reid too, who many consider will be better than Mercer, but has unfortunately torn an ACL for this season.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 03 Jan 2020, 12:54 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:True enough, I suppose what I am thinking is that the stars never seem to truly align for England.  The second row is about the best we've ever had depth (and indeed possibly talent) wise, but the balance of the back-row has been off and there was a dearth of talent.  Now the back-row is sorting itself, the sun seems to be setting on this era of second rowers!

I guess Kruis and Launchberry will be pushing the end of their careers for the next world cup, and its a real stretch for Lawes to make it but Itoje is still a kid. Isikwe would have been capped by now if he hadnt been sat behind such a strong quartet, and is well placed to carry the torch on in the short term to keep competition strong. So certainly looking forward to the next world cup you dont need to go fishing for names, and two of those will still be around for the long term after it. if theres an apparent dearth of talent is that partly because all the discussion and focus has been on those four, its been near impossible for anyone else to get into a test squad under Jones and even Itoje had to rely on injuries to force his way into the side.

Id say of all the positions aside from wing its one that England really don't have concerns over depth in. There may be a lot of prospects for the back row, but to my mind most are still just that ..players with a bit of promise and potential, behind Curry the occasionally fit BVP and Underhill I'm less convinced England have players who would jump straight in and cut it at the highest test level ( happy to be proven wrong of course!) . Kruis, Launchberry, Itoje and Isikwe to me are players who are good enough now...and theres others out their who could be challenging that group too.

I think Kpoku could force his way in sooner rather than later if Saints work well on him. i think we're in good hands in the lock department. Short term and long term.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 03 Jan 2020, 1:04 pm

Will Ellis Genge, make that loosehead spot his own? Or is Mako still quite some way ahead? Whats Marlers plans?
Who else is in the mix at LH?

And the eternal debate...
Fly half / 12

Is Ford and Farrell here to stay? Is marcus Smith forcing his way in to the plans...he's been electric.

Will Jones continue with two playmakers...or maybe bring in a bruiser at 12 (like Devoto) and have a playmaker further out at 15...like Malins (purely an example)

Why is Sam James never in the mix??

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 03 Jan 2020, 1:57 pm

Stuart barnes is pushing for Atkinson. Not normally mentioned on here.

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Post by LondonTiger Fri 03 Jan 2020, 2:50 pm

Manu currently injured Sad

Dombrandt rumoured to have fallen out with Gustard.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 03 Jan 2020, 2:51 pm

Mark Atkinson?

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Post by Gooseberry Fri 03 Jan 2020, 2:58 pm

Think the physical 12 would've been a stronger possibility with Tuilagi fit, but I do agree theres still a very open question over where Farrell plays and if Ford makes the starting 15. Certainly space for a new centre in the training squad, but I'd be surprised to see one start.

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Post by LondonTiger Fri 03 Jan 2020, 3:11 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Mark Atkinson?

Yeah. Feels more like a Stephen Jones call than a Stuart Barnes one, but even so.....

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Post by Cumbrian Fri 03 Jan 2020, 3:20 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:I am only half joking about that too, by the next world cup three out of four of our current locks will be well into their early 30s.  Lawes and Launchbury have had long and tough careers, with significant time on the treatment table, I worry what it means for their longevity.

Yes but I don't think we are too badly off. The problem with having players of the likes of Itoje, Manu and Curry is that you start taking it for granted that the next superstar is going to arrive fully formed at 20 yrs old, when its those guys who are just not normal.


Its fair to say though that the levels of professionalism in specialist school/college and academy rugby for teens (plus the better supported England age grade teams) now means England are seeing 18 year olds premiership ready" both in terms of ball skills and physicality even for forwards in a way they wouldnt have done a decade ago. The idea that players need 4 years to "fill out" is gone. Players are often at their physical best at that 20 point now, when they are still young enough to be relatively unhampered by injury and at the height of their aerobic potential. Manu was an absolute freak being test ready at 18 (he played in the Tigers win over world and sanzar champs SA as his first ever pro fixture), but again had that rugby upbringing from a very early age. 

Theres long been a big churn of promising players coming through age grade rugby. I remember similar conversations about the Haskell/Narraway/Lund/Croft/Easter/Rees/Wood etc generation, it seemed at the time that England were suddenly producing and endless supply of modern big mobile backrows who would take them up a level and serve them for a decade plus....
the problem then is the same one as now, how many of them can step up from being exciting prospects who make a splash in their late teens/early 20s on the Premiership to being test stars worthy of a place in a team that aspires to be number one in the world? 
Kvesic is perhaps a case in point. I was surprised to see hes still only 27...seems hes been on the fringes for England forever, and was being groomed as far back as the Johnson era to be the answer to Englands perceived lack of a "proper" 7 whilst tearing it up for the Under 20s. Despite that hes only managed 4 caps and never really made an impression on test rugby, Jones has sniffed around him but maybe just doesn't want that type of player but really doesn't seem to rate him that highly despite being at his theoretical peak in terms of balancing fitness and experience. Hes had all the opportunities to grow into the player he promised to be, but is still just good rather than great. 
The struggles to find number 8s....Easter did well in patches, Morgan looked like he was going to be good (where even is he now?) but its only Vunipola who (between injuries) has stood up to the level England aspire to. England haven't found anyone to pressure his spot or offer an adequate fill in when hes out, Hughes really has some way to go to bridge that gap IMO. 

Its maybe a pessimistic view but I think whilst England have gotten increasingly good at producing high quality players onto the club circuit through the academies and age grade systems they've tended to stall and not keep pushing on from that in the way you see from New Zealanders.  We have got better at teaching rugby skills and developing the physiques of the kids through offering a much higher level of school and college age rugby to mirror the Kiwi system, but once out of the the elite system and premiership still isnt doing enough to keep that competition and progression going. In terms of player numbers England have always been in a good place, but in terms of genuine stars? Those team of the decade posts sum it up, its struggle to find a token English player to put in (although Id make a controversial case for Manu, whilst he missed half a decade through injury and suspension his consistency of performance and impact on games whilst on the pitch has been incredible, had England not stuffed up the world cup final he'd be on there and marrying a minor royal).

I agree that we were guilty of over-hyping players in that era, but I do think there was an element of desperation involved back then. England were quite often pants, and everyone could see the deficiencies that needed to be improved. It became a case of trying to project those aspirations onto guys like Wood, Croft or Haskell and being disappointed when they didn't perform in the way we hoped, quite unfair really.  I think the lads that are coming through now are performing at a very high level, and the problems that England have are more mental than anything else.
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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 03 Jan 2020, 3:29 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Stuart barnes is pushing for Atkinson. Not normally mentioned on here.

Will turn 30 early into the next 6N. Not really building for the future if he is selected. Devoto is a similar type of player but about 4 years younger.

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Post by Maddogflanker Fri 03 Jan 2020, 5:19 pm

Feels as though Devoto has been around for ever.
Am expecting a youthful squad announced with a few left field selections

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Post by king_carlos Fri 03 Jan 2020, 5:41 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Will Ellis Genge, make that loosehead spot his own? Or is Mako still quite some way ahead? Whats Marlers plans?
Who else is in the mix at LH?

And the eternal debate...
Fly half / 12

Is Ford and Farrell here to stay? Is marcus Smith forcing his way in to the plans...he's been electric.

Will Jones continue with two playmakers...or maybe bring in a bruiser at 12 (like Devoto) and have a playmaker further out at 15...like Malins (purely an example)

Why is Sam James never in the mix??

Mako is best in the loose, Marler is most consistent in the scrum and Genge is most destructive in the scrum but will give away pens in that area sometimes. Marler is better than Genge in defence but Genge is more dangerous in attack. I could see Genge getting game time with Mako being rotated more, he's played a lot of rugby and looked knackered in the RWC final frankly.

Smith will replace Cipriani as the reserve 10 I think. He's electric ball in hand. Given Jones likes controlled game plans I could see Joe Simmonds around the squad as well.

If Joseph can re-find his best form he could certainly force his way into the centre debate. Aside from the performance against NZ in the semi-final I'd say that England's best performances in the backs under Jones were with Joseph at 13. I'd certainly say our best attacking play came with JJ at 13. Slade is class but our tries have often come from forcing opposition mistakes rather than structured attack in the last 2 years.

As for Sam James I'm unsure. He's a very good player. Ryan Mills has been similarly excellent for Worcester for a long time now. Perhaps a case of Jones not seeing standout skill sets that will help them step-up.

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Post by LondonTiger Fri 03 Jan 2020, 6:11 pm

Maddogflanker wrote:Feels as though Devoto has been around for ever.
Am expecting a youthful squad announced with a few left field selections

Whereas I expect the 6Ns squad to look very similar to the WC one (which again is worth repeating was the youngest ever to make a final)

Japan tour will see all the senior players rested.

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Post by king_carlos Fri 03 Jan 2020, 6:27 pm

The 6 Nations training squad last year was a 34-man squad with 2 apprentice players.

1.Vunipola, Marler, Genge
2.George, Cowan-Dickie, Singleton
3.Sinckler, Williams
4.Itoje, Launchbury
5.Kruis, Lawes
6.T Curry, Wilson
7.Underhill, Ludlam
8.Vunipola

9.Youngs, Spencer
10.Farrell, Ford

11.May, Nowell
12.Tuilagi
13.Slade, Joseph
14.Watson
15.Daly

Those 28 players I'd say are nailed on if still fit. Cokanasiga is injured so I've left him out.

Perhaps room for - 1 tight head, 1 lock, 1 back row, 1 scrum-half, 1 fly-half, 1 centre, 1 back three.

Tight head - Cole or Painter
Lock - Ewels, Isiekwe, Jonny Hill, Kpoku, Moon
Back row - Hughes, Simmonds, Dombrandt, Jack Willis, Ben Earl, Ted Hill, Ben Curry (Mercer injured)
Scrum-half - Robson or Heinz
Fly-half - Smith or Simmonds
Centre - Francis, Devoto, Tompkins, Lozowski
Back three - McConnochie, Rokoduguni, Furbank, Malins

Like LT I think the spine of the RWC squad will remain so there will be lots of options for only a few spaces.

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Post by Cumbrian Fri 03 Jan 2020, 8:42 pm

Watching the Sale vs. Quins match and England could do worse than hope for Luke James to settle at full back.
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Post by king_carlos Fri 03 Jan 2020, 9:32 pm

Furbank and Malins are very exciting full-backs as well. There are options coming through so hopefully we see at least one of them in the 6 Nations squad.

Daly has been in excellent form for Sarries at 15 it is worth noting. I've been openly critical of his defensive work, as most of us have, but what he adds to England in attack as an extra playmaker is significant.

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Post by Cumbrian Fri 03 Jan 2020, 9:55 pm

I agree on Malins and Furbank, the latter is such a smooth runner.

The thing with Daly is I always think when he has a good game at full back there is a 'but'*

The asterisk being for a guy who isn't a full back. At international level we shouldn't be pleasantly surprised when a player does well in the position he has been picked in. I've done it myself, I found myself really enthusing when he catches a high ball, but then I think 'That should be his bread and butter!'.

I know it is sacrilege, but Daly makes the perfect bench player in my mind. He can competently cover 13 outwards.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 04 Jan 2020, 4:58 pm

I know we already have too many quality players to choose from but wish Polledri hadn't have chosen italy.

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Post by Guest Sat 04 Jan 2020, 6:13 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:I am only half joking about that too, by the next world cup three out of four of our current locks will be well into their early 30s.  Lawes and Launchbury have had long and tough careers, with significant time on the treatment table, I worry what it means for their longevity.

Yes but I don't think we are too badly off. The problem with having players of the likes of Itoje, Manu and Curry is that you start taking it for granted that the next superstar is going to arrive fully formed at 20 yrs old, when its those guys who are just not normal.


Its fair to say though that the levels of professionalism in specialist school/college and academy rugby for teens (plus the better supported England age grade teams) now means England are seeing 18 year olds premiership ready" both in terms of ball skills and physicality even for forwards in a way they wouldnt have done a decade ago. The idea that players need 4 years to "fill out" is gone. Players are often at their physical best at that 20 point now, when they are still young enough to be relatively unhampered by injury and at the height of their aerobic potential. Manu was an absolute freak being test ready at 18 (he played in the Tigers win over world and sanzar champs SA as his first ever pro fixture), but again had that rugby upbringing from a very early age. 

Theres long been a big churn of promising players coming through age grade rugby. I remember similar conversations about the Haskell/Narraway/Lund/Croft/Easter/Rees/Wood etc generation, it seemed at the time that England were suddenly producing and endless supply of modern big mobile backrows who would take them up a level and serve them for a decade plus....
the problem then is the same one as now, how many of them can step up from being exciting prospects who make a splash in their late teens/early 20s on the Premiership to being test stars worthy of a place in a team that aspires to be number one in the world? 
Kvesic is perhaps a case in point. I was surprised to see hes still only 27...seems hes been on the fringes for England forever, and was being groomed as far back as the Johnson era to be the answer to Englands perceived lack of a "proper" 7 whilst tearing it up for the Under 20s. Despite that hes only managed 4 caps and never really made an impression on test rugby, Jones has sniffed around him but maybe just doesn't want that type of player but really doesn't seem to rate him that highly despite being at his theoretical peak in terms of balancing fitness and experience. Hes had all the opportunities to grow into the player he promised to be, but is still just good rather than great. 
The struggles to find number 8s....Easter did well in patches, Morgan looked like he was going to be good (where even is he now?) but its only Vunipola who (between injuries) has stood up to the level England aspire to. England haven't found anyone to pressure his spot or offer an adequate fill in when hes out, Hughes really has some way to go to bridge that gap IMO. 

Its maybe a pessimistic view but I think whilst England have gotten increasingly good at producing high quality players onto the club circuit through the academies and age grade systems they've tended to stall and not keep pushing on from that in the way you see from New Zealanders.  We have got better at teaching rugby skills and developing the physiques of the kids through offering a much higher level of school and college age rugby to mirror the Kiwi system, but once out of the the elite system and premiership still isnt doing enough to keep that competition and progression going. In terms of player numbers England have always been in a good place, but in terms of genuine stars? Those team of the decade posts sum it up, its struggle to find a token English player to put in (although Id make a controversial case for Manu, whilst he missed half a decade through injury and suspension his consistency of performance and impact on games whilst on the pitch has been incredible, had England not stuffed up the world cup final he'd be on there and marrying a minor royal).

Great post clap clap clap

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Post by Cumbrian Tue 07 Jan 2020, 11:51 am

Well that stinks, I've just noticed that England have got TWO Sunday games. I don't even like having one!
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Post by LondonTiger Tue 07 Jan 2020, 12:09 pm

Cumbrian wrote:Well that stinks, I've just noticed that England have got TWO Sunday games. I don't even like having one!

Wheras being often busy on Saturdays, I like England playing on Sundays.

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Post by Cumbrian Tue 07 Jan 2020, 12:14 pm

Fair enough, each to their own, but it always feels a bit anti-climactic to me.
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Post by LondonTiger Tue 07 Jan 2020, 12:16 pm

Oh I hate Tiger's games on Sundays - and I would never want to watch England live on a Sunday, but as 95% of the time I am watching on TV I do not care too much about the day.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 07 Jan 2020, 1:07 pm

Malins out for 3 months with a broken foot

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Post by nlpnlp Tue 07 Jan 2020, 1:11 pm

Looks like it will be Daly and Watson fighting it out for the 15 shirt.

I hope Eddie decides to give Simmonds or Dombrandt a run in the 6 Nations.  I think Billy has to a degree been worked out by opposition teams and is now fairly easily negated.  His carrying has always masked his weaknesses - no lineout jumping, limited mobility around the park, lack of breakdown presence, propensity to break.  The likes of Hughes who I thought was better than some of his critics gave him credit for seems to have had his chance, and possibly found his best position as a sub covering second row and backrow.

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Post by propdavid_london Tue 07 Jan 2020, 4:55 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Manu currently injured Sad

Dombrandt rumoured to have fallen out with Gustard.
I had also heard that Dombrandt is rumoured to be moving on from Quins too - would be a real shame. Hope there is nothing in it.

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Post by Mr Bounce Tue 07 Jan 2020, 8:34 pm

propdavid_london wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Manu currently injured Sad

Dombrandt rumoured to have fallen out with Gustard.
I had also heard that Dombrandt is rumoured to be moving on from Quins too - would be a real shame. Hope there is nothing in it.

Saints were sniffing around but hasn't he recently signed a long contract with Quins? I suppose contracts can be re-negotiated so I guess if you're not happy somewhere there has to be get out clauses.

Gutted to see Malins has broken his foot. Perhaps he'll go on the summer tour instead once he's fixed?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 08 Jan 2020, 7:49 am

The malins news is a kick in the teeth. Always seems to happen as a young player gets the run of games needed to impress that they then pick up an injury. Let's hope it plans out all right in the end.

Stuart for tight head prop?

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Post by Cumbrian Wed 08 Jan 2020, 8:53 am

It is frustrating for the lad, I wonder how close he was to call up (same goes for Furbank too). Daly seems to be one of Eddie's favoured players, so it could be that he didn't have a chance at the moment.


Interesting to see if Stuart does get called up. I was concerned that Sinckler might be injured, but it looks like he has been cleared to play, so perhaps it is slightly less likely. I guess it depends on what happens with Cole.
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Post by propdavid_london Wed 08 Jan 2020, 9:04 am

Sinkler was pulled out of the Sale game last min because of a failed fitness test....that was the official line.
One assumes that he was cleared to play after coming off in 'the big game'. And should be good for England selection.

When it comes to 6N squads I agree with most above - its likely to be the WC squad (minus those that are injured or haven't impressed).

Cockanasinga (injured)
Launchbury (injured for last game - do we know if he is available?)
R.Mchonachie (the bath 7's covert that didn't get a match)
Singleton hasn't impressed at Sarries (will Eddie stick with him?) - there are other options for 3rd choice (Dunn, Yendle etc.)
Has Manu T been rested or injured?

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Post by propdavid_london Wed 08 Jan 2020, 9:15 am

And Also, Wilson hasn't played and we don't know about Slade yet.

So, 2 wings/ 1 hooker/2 centre a Lock and a back row that would have to be replaced. And then a couple of *Apprentice players*

2. Tom Dunn
4/5. Jonny Hill
12/13. Sam Hill
12/13. Nick Tompkins
11/14. Ollie Thorley?
11/14. Nick Woodburn?

*Ibitoye
*M.Smith

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Post by Gooseberry Wed 08 Jan 2020, 9:42 am

Tuilagis groin has gone again. How long hes out isn't entirely clear, but he wont be rushing back like he did before and trying to play through it. Should be available for the 6 nations but its not guaranteed, and hes always going to be prone to recurrences it seems.

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Post by Cumbrian Wed 08 Jan 2020, 10:32 am

With Tuilagi's propensity for injury I tend to view him as a luxury that England can intermittently call upon. You can imagine it is only going to get worse as he gets older.

If both Slade and Tuilagi are out, you would imagine Jonathan Joseph will come into the team?

From the above, I can't see Sam Hill coming in. He is a decent player and very solid, but I don't think he does anything that makes him stand out as a potential full international.
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Post by Rinsure Wed 08 Jan 2020, 10:43 am

propdavid_london wrote:
Launchbury (injured for last game - do we know if he is available?)

Withdrew due to illness just prior to kick-off. No injury, should be available for selection.

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Post by Rinsure Wed 08 Jan 2020, 10:44 am

If Slade and Tuilagi are out, then isn't it a nailed on Farrell / Joseph midfield pairing?

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Post by bluestonevedder Wed 08 Jan 2020, 11:14 am

In light of Slade and Manu's injuries, i'd be happy to see Devoto come into the squad. Big payer, great offload, and seems to be flourishing since moving to Exeter. When Tigers played the Chiefs a few weekends ago he was infuriatingly efficient at breaking the gain line and always got his hands free. I think England could do a lot worse than giving him a shot in the 6N.

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Post by propdavid_london Wed 08 Jan 2020, 11:42 am

Not many people backing Nick Tompkins? I thought that this could be the season that he really kicks on 'internationally'.
Lozowski seems to have dropped down the pecking order a bit.

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Post by Cumbrian Wed 08 Jan 2020, 12:03 pm

I think Tompkins is definitely in the conversation, looks a really classy player. He seems equally adept at both outside and inside centre, which should hold him in good stead. I don't know why, but he always reminds me of Garry Ringrose.

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Post by BamBam Wed 08 Jan 2020, 1:44 pm

Barely watched any club rugby this season, so intrigued to see what the 6N brings. I have never really agreed with the grand slam or bust mentality, but on the back of the RWC I really want to see us go out and perform at a sustained level over an entire tournament

We've got Ireland and Wales at home, both of whom have new coaching structures while we haven't had any major changes. Italy in the last game means there is (almost) no chance of a final day choke which helps relieve some pressure. Barring any major injuries, I don't think its disrespectful to expect us to beat France and Scotland, obviously being on the road has its challenges but I genuinely feel we are the best team in the tournament and we need to prove it by winning with a Slam

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Post by lostinwales Wed 08 Jan 2020, 2:10 pm

France are, arguably, improving though. Nothing is a given

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 08 Jan 2020, 2:17 pm

Yeah Devoto has been inmproving nicely since his move. He is a good ball carrier if thats what we are looking to replace manu with.

Tompkins should come in aswell.

Joseph for me is still the stand out 13 when on form though. Electric in attack and he seems to be the devensive leader aswell (or am i wrong there?)

Whilst i would put the strongest squad out possible for this 6n and rest the guys in the summer...we might have to field a more experimental squad purely down to injuries..

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