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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Nov 2019, 8:17 am

First topic message reminder :

So a few comments I've lifted from the guardian from Eddie Jones. Pretty much as you'd expect in terms of looking ahead to the next challenge.
“I tell you what happens to teams – they evolve,” Jones said. “Some guys will lose desire, some guys will lose fitness, some guys will get injuries and there’ll be young guys come through. So this team is finished now. There will be a new team made. We’ll make a new team for the Six Nations and that new team for the Six Nations will be the basis of going to the next World Cup.'

Apparently the team at the weekend is the youngest to appear in a WC final so there won't be 15 new guys coming in but clearly a few are coming to the end. Are there particular areas or players jones will be looking at?

For me this bunch stand a decent chance in and around the squad to get more caps soon. Genge, Painter, Willis, Dombrandt, Smith, spencer, Robson and a outside chance of Mullins at full back.

Guys that are all young enough to be around for years to come but all with great potential. Perhaps not as good/proven as some who will step back but hugely talented.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 08 Jan 2020, 2:44 pm

bluestonevedder wrote:In light of Slade and Manu's injuries, i'd be happy to see Devoto come into the squad. Big payer, great offload, and seems to be flourishing since moving to Exeter. When Tigers played the Chiefs a few weekends ago he was infuriatingly efficient at breaking the gain line and always got his hands free. I think England could do a lot worse than giving him a shot in the 6N.

Eddie, to be fair a half hearted sloth could break the Tigers defence these days.

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Post by bluestonevedder Wed 08 Jan 2020, 3:57 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
bluestonevedder wrote:In light of Slade and Manu's injuries, i'd be happy to see Devoto come into the squad. Big payer, great offload, and seems to be flourishing since moving to Exeter. When Tigers played the Chiefs a few weekends ago he was infuriatingly efficient at breaking the gain line and always got his hands free. I think England could do a lot worse than giving him a shot in the 6N.

Eddie, to be fair a half hearted sloth could break the Tigers defence these days.

It's still a bit too raw for jokes GF. We're on a streak of a draw and a win- let us fans enjoy it for a few more days please.

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Post by BamBam Wed 08 Jan 2020, 4:05 pm

lostinwales wrote:France are, arguably, improving though. Nothing is a given

Agree with you there lost, but I think most would be disappointed if we managed to lose to France in the opener

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 08 Jan 2020, 4:07 pm

bluestonevedder wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
bluestonevedder wrote:In light of Slade and Manu's injuries, i'd be happy to see Devoto come into the squad. Big payer, great offload, and seems to be flourishing since moving to Exeter. When Tigers played the Chiefs a few weekends ago he was infuriatingly efficient at breaking the gain line and always got his hands free. I think England could do a lot worse than giving him a shot in the 6N.

Eddie, to be fair a half hearted sloth could break the Tigers defence these days.

It's still a bit too raw for jokes GF. We're on a streak of a draw and a win- let us fans enjoy it for a few more days please.

laughing laughing Laugh Laugh

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Post by king_carlos Wed 08 Jan 2020, 4:20 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
bluestonevedder wrote:In light of Slade and Manu's injuries, i'd be happy to see Devoto come into the squad. Big payer, great offload, and seems to be flourishing since moving to Exeter. When Tigers played the Chiefs a few weekends ago he was infuriatingly efficient at breaking the gain line and always got his hands free. I think England could do a lot worse than giving him a shot in the 6N.

Eddie, to be fair a half hearted sloth could break the Tigers defence these days.

This season the sloth has to remember not to run at Taufua or Lavanini to be fair.

Maybe Eastmond should start wearing a scrum cap as a clever disguise to look like a forward...

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Post by king_carlos Wed 08 Jan 2020, 4:22 pm

BamBam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:France are, arguably, improving though. Nothing is a given

Agree with you there lost, but I think most would be disappointed if we managed to lose to France in the opener

Guirado retiring is an enormous blow for France as well. Even at 33-years old he's still one of the best hookers and leaders in rugby.

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Post by bluestonevedder Wed 08 Jan 2020, 4:25 pm

king_carlos wrote:
BamBam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:France are, arguably, improving though. Nothing is a given

Agree with you there lost, but I think most would be disappointed if we managed to lose to France in the opener

Guirado retiring is an enormous blow for France as well. Even at 33-years old he's still one of the best hookers and leaders in rugby.

That's true, but Camille Chat is a hugely imposing player. It will be great to see what he can achieve with a string of starts rather than bench appearances.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 08 Jan 2020, 4:29 pm

bluestonevedder wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
BamBam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:France are, arguably, improving though. Nothing is a given

Agree with you there lost, but I think most would be disappointed if we managed to lose to France in the opener

Guirado retiring is an enormous blow for France as well. Even at 33-years old he's still one of the best hookers and leaders in rugby.

That's true, but Camille Chat is a hugely imposing player. It will be great to see what he can achieve with a string of starts rather than bench appearances.

Sounds like something produced by a desert animal Whistle

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Post by king_carlos Wed 08 Jan 2020, 4:42 pm

bluestonevedder wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
BamBam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:France are, arguably, improving though. Nothing is a given

Agree with you there lost, but I think most would be disappointed if we managed to lose to France in the opener

Guirado retiring is an enormous blow for France as well. Even at 33-years old he's still one of the best hookers and leaders in rugby.

That's true, but Camille Chat is a hugely imposing player. It will be great to see what he can achieve with a string of starts rather than bench appearances.

A physical monster but yet to find consistency particularly in set-piece hence the high proportion of bench appearances. No doubt talented and only 24-years old though.

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Post by bluestonevedder Wed 08 Jan 2020, 4:52 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
bluestonevedder wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
BamBam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:France are, arguably, improving though. Nothing is a given

Agree with you there lost, but I think most would be disappointed if we managed to lose to France in the opener

Guirado retiring is an enormous blow for France as well. Even at 33-years old he's still one of the best hookers and leaders in rugby.

That's true, but Camille Chat is a hugely imposing player. It will be great to see what he can achieve with a string of starts rather than bench appearances.

Sounds like something produced by a desert animal Whistle

It's a terribly unfortunate name. Jim Hamilton and Andy Goode on the Rugby Pod always have a good laugh about it. Cracking podcast if anyone on here doesn't happen to listen to it

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Post by BamBam Wed 08 Jan 2020, 5:06 pm

Chat is a great player, was looking at the France thread earlier and was wondering if he'd get the opportunity to start or if there was another hooker ahead of him in the pecking order. Guirado offered a hell of a lot of leadership though, and most of the time looked by far the best player on his team so he'll be a big loss


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Post by lostinwales Thu 09 Jan 2020, 12:21 pm

Rumors that Kruis may depart Saracens, possibly for Japan, at the end of the season. This would end his England career.

If this is true I'd be tempted to leave him out of the 6N squad altogether.

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Post by Guest Thu 09 Jan 2020, 12:26 pm

If true, Kruis would be big in Japan.

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Post by lostinwales Thu 09 Jan 2020, 12:33 pm

guestalt_physicality wrote:If true, Kruis would be big in Japan.

Turning Japanese, guestalt?

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Post by Guest Thu 09 Jan 2020, 1:03 pm

Excuse me?

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Post by LondonTiger Thu 09 Jan 2020, 2:37 pm

lostinwales wrote:
guestalt_physicality wrote:If true, Kruis would be big in Japan.

Turning Japanese, guestalt?




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Post by LondonTiger Thu 09 Jan 2020, 2:39 pm

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-7866333/Sale-flanker-Ben-Curry-set-join-twin-brother-Tom-Eddie-Jones-England-squad-Six-Nations.html

Sale believe Ben Curry has as much international pedigree as his brother, with particular quality at the breakdown and in defence, as well as acting as a link man in open play. But Jones is understood to have previously indicated to the club that the uncapped Curry should be converted into a scrum-half.


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Post by bluestonevedder Thu 09 Jan 2020, 2:49 pm

LondonTiger wrote:https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-7866333/Sale-flanker-Ben-Curry-set-join-twin-brother-Tom-Eddie-Jones-England-squad-Six-Nations.html

Sale believe Ben Curry has as much international pedigree as his brother, with particular quality at the breakdown and in defence, as well as acting as a link man in open play. But Jones is understood to have previously indicated to the club that the uncapped Curry should be converted into a scrum-half.


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Mauro Bergamasco mark II!

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Post by BamBam Thu 09 Jan 2020, 3:55 pm

Laugh

What on earth?

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Post by lostinwales Thu 09 Jan 2020, 4:33 pm

Sounds like a standard EJ curveball, probably just seeing how far and fast such a rumor will spread

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Post by BamBam Thu 09 Jan 2020, 4:37 pm

Sale enjoying it on their Twitter feed

https://twitter.com/SaleSharksRugby/status/1215292766126854145

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 09 Jan 2020, 4:55 pm

Dont particularly want to click on a daily mail link bit I'm assuming that jones was taking the mick.

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Post by yappysnap Thu 09 Jan 2020, 10:40 pm

He'd still probably pass better then Youngs...

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Post by Cumbrian Fri 10 Jan 2020, 11:23 am

I refuse to click on a Daily Heil link, so will have to take your word for it. Scrum half just seems bizarre. Another failed attempt to jam a flanker into the hooking position I could have believed, but this has got to be a joke...

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Fri 10 Jan 2020, 12:12 pm

Well, Harry Mallinder makes his return from injury on Sunday, perhaps EJ will make a request to Boyd to play him at lock. A sort of Banahan in reverse.
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Post by Gooseberry Fri 10 Jan 2020, 12:40 pm

yappysnap wrote:He'd still probably pass better then Youngs...

Who's brother was a center who played at hooker for England and the Lions so who knows

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Post by Maddogflanker Fri 10 Jan 2020, 2:34 pm

by WELL-PAST-IT

Well, Harry Mallinder makes his return from injury on Sunday, perhaps EJ will make a request to Boyd to play him at lock. A sort of Banahan in reverse.

Not many locks with a kicking game tbf.

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Post by lostinwales Fri 10 Jan 2020, 3:49 pm

Maddogflanker wrote:by WELL-PAST-IT

Well, Harry Mallinder makes his return from injury on Sunday, perhaps EJ will make a request to Boyd to play him at lock. A sort of Banahan in reverse.

Not many locks with a kicking game tbf.

John Eales?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 11 Jan 2020, 9:53 am

Doesn't look good for watson. Went down in a pretty innocuous moment clutching his knee. Guess Furbank moves a step further towards a debut?

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sat 11 Jan 2020, 10:14 am

He might make the squad if Watson is out, he has the versatility that EJ likes, can play right across the backline from 10 -15
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Post by king_carlos Sat 11 Jan 2020, 11:16 pm

Joel Kpoku was excellent for Sarries when he came on today. He is a mountain of a man, carries brutally and hits hard in the tackle.

If Jones is looking for a more physical lock after how the pack fared in the RWC final then I could see Kpoku getting a look in. A very impressive second row for only 20-years old.

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Post by Cumbrian Sun 12 Jan 2020, 3:01 pm

For the wing position, I thought that both Nowell and Thorley were excellent in their respective matches.
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Post by Cumbrian Sun 12 Jan 2020, 3:03 pm

However, Watson looks like he is going to be okay:

https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/sport/other-sport/stuart-hooper-plays-down-anthony-3729314
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Post by yappysnap Mon 13 Jan 2020, 2:52 am

Shouldn't we stick with a largely unchanged team and look to set down a marker this 6N's? Win the GS show the RWC final was a one off, and carry on building with the very talented and young squad that we have.

What I don't think we want to do is start another overhaul. Just ditch Youngs, stop playing Daly at fb, replace the injuries and the retired players and carry on with the players we have.

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Post by BamBam Mon 13 Jan 2020, 9:36 am

I more or less agree with that yappy. I think I read that the RWC squad are getting the summer off, so that tour and the AIs are the time to bring through those who have consistently impressed in club rugby imo. I want to win the 6N, and a GS should be the target

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Post by Cumbrian Mon 13 Jan 2020, 10:54 am

I agree, but I think there has to be some changes in the backs due to injuries etc.

World Cup squad:

Dan Cole
Luke Cowan-Dickie
Tom Curry
Ellis Genge
Jamie George
Maro Itoje
George Kruis
Joe Launchbury
Courtney Lawes
Lewis Ludlam
Joe Marler
Kyle Sinckler
Jack Singleton
Sam Underhill
Billy Vunipola- Just doing a bit of soothsaying.
Mako Vunipola
Mark Wilson Injured?

Joe Cokanasiga- Injured
Elliot Daly
Owen Farrell
George Ford
Piers Francis
Willi Heinz- Too old
Jonathan Joseph
Jonny May
Ruaridh McConnochie- Better options
Jack Nowell
Henry Slade Injured?
Manu Tuilagi
Anthony Watson
Ben Youngs

In addition to this, we've heard Eddie say that he wants to get Ben Curry into the squad. I could be wrong, but I actually think there will be more changes than we have been anticipating. Either way, I reckon the squad may be named on Thursday (it has been named on the corresponding Thursday for the last two years 17/01/19, 18/01/18)
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Post by MichaelT Mon 13 Jan 2020, 11:20 am

I wonder if having both Dombrandt and Sam Simmonds on the bench on a 6/2 split might be something to do, at least once to see. Bench something like -

Cowan-Dickie, Genge, ?, Lawes, Dombrandt, Simmonds, Spencer, Ford or Daly


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Post by lostinwales Mon 13 Jan 2020, 11:28 am

I don't know if Simmonds will get back in. He was generally very good when he got a chance but we are so used to having a monster at 8

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Post by Cumbrian Mon 13 Jan 2020, 11:34 am

I've seen it mentioned before, and I am starting to agree, that Billy may have been 'found out' a little. He is still an important player and one of the first names on the teamsheet, but he doesn't seem as effective as he used to be. Having a player that offers a different style might be helpful.
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Post by MichaelT Mon 13 Jan 2020, 11:43 am

I think some players seem to play very well against certain teams, and the Vunipolas always seem to look great against Irish teams. Dan Biggar, and also James Hook a little further back, seem to have a knack for being great against England.

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Post by lostinwales Mon 13 Jan 2020, 12:03 pm

Cumbrian wrote:I've seen it mentioned before, and I am starting to agree, that Billy may have been 'found out' a little.  He is still an important player and one of the first names on the teamsheet, but he doesn't seem as effective as he used to be.  Having a player that offers a different style might be helpful.

The two questions are
1) Are we assessing him against his traditional ability to knock aside players like bowling pins or are we assessing him compared to other players? Sometimes we seem to assess players differently because they have been so remarkable in the past.
2) Can he adapt to not running through people all the time? The much derided Easter (who could also jump in the line out) seldom made a lot of ground but he was always there to truck the ball up, and very good at tying up defenders and getting the offload.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Mon 13 Jan 2020, 12:43 pm

When are the 6N squads announced?
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Post by Gooseberry Mon 13 Jan 2020, 12:43 pm

Cumbrian wrote:I agree, but I think there has to be some changes in the backs due to injuries etc.  

World Cup squad:

Dan Cole
Luke Cowan-Dickie
Tom Curry
Ellis Genge
Jamie George
Maro Itoje
George Kruis
Joe Launchbury
Courtney Lawes
Lewis Ludlam
Joe Marler
Kyle Sinckler
Jack Singleton
Sam Underhill
Billy Vunipola- Just doing a bit of soothsaying.
Mako Vunipola
Mark Wilson Injured?

Joe Cokanasiga- Injured
Elliot Daly
Owen Farrell
George Ford
Piers Francis
Willi Heinz- Too old
Jonathan Joseph
Jonny May
Ruaridh McConnochie- Better options
Jack Nowell
Henry Slade Injured?
Manu Tuilagi
Anthony Watson
Ben Youngs

In addition to this, we've heard Eddie say that he wants to get Ben Curry into the squad.  I could be wrong, but I actually think there will be more changes than we have been anticipating.  Either way, I reckon the squad may be named on Thursday (it has been named on the corresponding Thursday for the last two years 17/01/19, 18/01/18)


I'd fancy you could do without one senior lock, have another tighthead in the training squad, and discount Francis as well. Possibly Ludlam too as he was a bit of and edge case to get the previous squad through injuries in the first place. Even if you think its worth trying another 8 you don't leave BVP out of the squad. Tuialgis fitness is debatable so plenty of scope for centers ( which maybe gives Francis a lifeline). 
Agree that Youngs isnt getting ditched form the squad even if Jones takes a risk on a new starter. Id reckon 2 young scrum halves for the wider training squad would make sense. 

Anyone know how all this works with the EPS this year? I cant remember when a squad was last announced, its usually at the end of the club season then updated in the autumn isnt it? Obviously thats only a guide and helpful from a player management basis and doesnt stop Jones form using players form outside it...but does give a pretty strong indication of the players hes got longer term views on. 

Overall though as Ive said several times before on this thread i would be very surprised to see a squad with fundamental differences from the world cup one for the 6 nations. A few obvious places where there should be some fresh options given spots (SH, FB, 8, possibly hooker) in the training group even if the first 15 remains stable. The injuries are forcing a fair churn of opportunities elsewhere and the summer will see what amounts to a Saxons side touring. This 6 nations is about the seasoned campaigners proving they still have it, the summer is about the fresh faces making a statement for the future. the Autumn is where we see the direction England are going for the following 3 years fleshed out and we see players pensioned off. 

No need for a big bang ripping up of things, but plenty of scope for a gradual evolution of the side.

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Post by Mr Bounce Mon 13 Jan 2020, 12:56 pm

Going by Underhill's previous injury history, it's theoretically possible that both Tom and Ben Curry could end up as our flankers. Unlikely but possible. He has been on Eddie's radar before - didn't Tom replace Ben before the Baa-Baas game, played a blinder and then toured Argentina? (I seem to recall Underhill starting the 2nd test for his 1st cap in the 7 shirt).

The back row is not something that we're short of options in. Dombrandt surely must be in the mix this season along with Ben Curry.

Does anyone know when the 6 Nations squad is announced??

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Post by lostinwales Mon 13 Jan 2020, 1:01 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:Going by Underhill's previous injury history, it's theoretically possible that both Tom and Ben Curry could end up as our flankers. Unlikely but possible. He has been on Eddie's radar before - didn't Tom replace Ben before the Baa-Baas game, played a blinder and then toured Argentina? (I seem to recall Underhill starting the 2nd test for his 1st cap in the 7 shirt).

The back row is not something that we're short of options in. Dombrandt surely must be in the mix this season along with Ben Curry.

Does anyone know when the 6 Nations squad is announced??

I believe Ben was originally the 1st choice. Bad luck for him but England have not done so badly with Tom.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Mon 13 Jan 2020, 1:20 pm

A flank pairing of the Curry twins would not be bad at all.

Is there anything to stop Saracens holding back their international players?
And would they actually do it?

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Post by Guest Mon 13 Jan 2020, 1:23 pm

Cumbrian wrote:I've seen it mentioned before, and I am starting to agree, that Billy may have been 'found out' a little.  He is still an important player and one of the first names on the teamsheet, but he doesn't seem as effective as he used to be.  Having a player that offers a different style might be helpful.

Last season Billy V was at his best imo. He was looking top class and was getting comfortable with using his footwork and handling and not just his bulk. No way is he finished.

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Post by BamBam Mon 13 Jan 2020, 1:34 pm

The new coaching team has been announced

Matt Proudfoot -forwards coach
Simon Amor - attack coach
Steve Borthwick - skills coach
John Mitchell - defence

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/amor-and-proudfoot-join-england-mens-coaching-team

Borthwick as skills coach seems an interesting one, although I might be underestimating his coaching!

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Post by Mr Bounce Mon 13 Jan 2020, 1:35 pm

I agree. Billy is far from done. Just think about bringing the intensity of the NZ match with Billy, putting a hatful of points against a side that are tired and demoralised, and then have them have to deal with Dombrandt. Ouch.

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Post by LondonTiger Mon 13 Jan 2020, 1:42 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:
Does anyone know when the 6 Nations squad is announced??

Next Monday I believe.

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