Silly Season Transfer Rumours 19/20

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Not a great position for Saints, captain and international level hooker looks likely so they've resorted to signing what is at best squad filler. Presumably Haywood and Fish will carry the bulk of the playing time.

So it looks like England looking for a complete new coaching team.

It is going to be quite a merry go round next year.

BigGee wrote:So it looks like England looking for a complete new coaching team.

It is going to be quite a merry go round next year.

Eddie Jones has tended to rotate his coaches anyway. I don't think it will concern him overly.

So when has he said he is going or does that depend on winning the WC or not?

What role would Borth take at Tigers? Surely he'd want the top job? Murphy back to attack/skills/backs and Borth forwards and head coach?

Bathite wrote:What role would Borth take at Tigers? Surely he'd want the top job? Murphy back to attack/skills/backs and Borth forwards and head coach?

Unsure on that one. It could well be Murphy taking on DOR as he has a very definite view on the club ethos what the culture should be etc. We've seen a massive shift in the make up of the team under him with the development squad being given meaningful game time and the use of loans/DRs. Borthwick would be then given free reign to implement his game plan with the first team and aid the development of the younger coaches. Murphy would then take a step back from the day to day coaching. That's the favourite hypothesis.

Could be the other way with Borthwick coming in as DOR and Murphy remaining as head coach. That would be more in line with previous set ups, Borthwick taking the Cockers role and Murphy the MOC position. I think the club may want to move forward from that way of thinking though.

BigGee wrote:So when has he said he is going  or does that depend on winning the WC or not?

current contract is to the end of the 2021 season I think - but only if we beat Australia. Lose and his extension is not automatically triggered.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

BigGee wrote:So it looks like England looking for a complete new coaching team.

It is going to be quite a merry go round next year.

Eddie Jones has tended to rotate his coaches anyway. I don't think it will concern him overly.

Is he in for the next 4 years?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

BigGee wrote:So it looks like England looking for a complete new coaching team.

It is going to be quite a merry go round next year.

Eddie Jones has tended to rotate his coaches anyway. I don't think it will concern him overly.

Is he in for the next 4 years?

I think the idea is to have a staggered handover to the next man in.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

BigGee wrote:So it looks like England looking for a complete new coaching team.

It is going to be quite a merry go round next year.

Eddie Jones has tended to rotate his coaches anyway. I don't think it will concern him overly.

Is he in for the next 4 years?

I think the idea is to have a staggered handover to the next man in.

Wasnt that supposed to be Gustard or Borthwick? Wonder who they have their eyes on.

Could still be Gustard. Second season at Quins goes well, the first showed some decent promise and now he'll have been able to tune the squad to what he wants. Borthwick might be considering something similar. If Jones is there for two more years he's got time to show he can turn round Tigers fortunes and then force his way back into reckoning.

I'd expect the RFU to chase a bigger name though. Perhaps a second raid of Japan...

Northampton have signed Joel Kpoku for next season.

Fluxy wrote:Northampton have signed Joel Kpoku for next season.

Fascinating signing and perhaps a sign Sarries may be forced to shed a few to stay within the cap?

That's a great signing for Saints. A loss for Sarries with three England international locks on the books. They need quality cover. Problem for Kpoku is that all four of the locks ahead of him in the pecking order are under 30. Northampton don't have that issue, their Fijian is 33 so Kpoku is the ideal replacement. He should be able to jump Moon in the pecking order so he's likely to be on the bench for next season behind Ribbans and Lawes.

LondonTiger wrote:

Fluxy wrote:Northampton have signed Joel Kpoku for next season.

Fascinating signing and perhaps a sign Sarries may be forced to shed a few to stay within the cap?

Nick Isiekwe is out of contract too and would start for any club bar Sarries. If as rumoured Sarries are having to shed some cap I'd be surprised if they kept hold of Isiekwe and Skelton.

Kpoku has looked great in the U20s, great to see another young lock having the opportunity to challenge for game time

Isiekwe has a lot of potential too, didn't realise he was out of contract.

Did anyone see the news from Sarries at full time of the England game announcing that one of their directors was stepping down? A good day to bury news perhaps

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2019/10/26/saracens-announce-departure-board-director-time-englands-rugby/
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-7614515/Saracens-salary-cap-chief-leaves-club-amid-Premiership-Rugby-investigation.html

BamBam wrote:Kpoku has looked great in the U20s, great to see another young lock having the opportunity to challenge for game time

Isiekwe has a lot of potential too, didn't realise he was out of contract.

Did anyone see the news from Sarries at full time of the England game announcing that one of their directors was stepping down? A good day to bury news perhaps

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2019/10/26/saracens-announce-departure-board-director-time-englands-rugby/
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-7614515/Saracens-salary-cap-chief-leaves-club-amid-Premiership-Rugby-investigation.html

The departure of Bernard van Zyl there salary cap manager is the more telling one.

Rumours that Kieran Marmion is being targeted by Sarries. Presumably as a replacement for Wigglesworth and to give them a starter when Spencer is away with England.

Liam Williams rumoured to be in discussion with a return to Wales when his Sarries contract expires. Makes sense if Sarries are having to cut some weight from the cap, especially with Daly coming in.

king_carlos wrote:Liam Williams rumoured to be in discussion with a return to Wales when his Sarries contract expires. Makes sense if Sarries are having to cut some weight from the cap, especially with Daly coming in.

With the ankle surgery he has just had and at least 3 months out I guess they will also be looking for injury dispensation.

LondonTiger wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Liam Williams rumoured to be in discussion with a return to Wales when his Sarries contract expires. Makes sense if Sarries are having to cut some weight from the cap, especially with Daly coming in.

With the ankle surgery he has just had and at least 3 months out I guess they will also be looking for injury dispensation.

Goode is out for 4 months as well. Seems they'll either be looking for injury dispensation or Daly is going to be getting lots more game time at fullback.

They've got the young fullback Gallagher who has looked really good everytime I've seen him play for them. An able deputy who could improve with the additional game time. His dad was quite handy as well.

Mallins might be back from injury soon and is a livewire either at 10 or 15 and Maitland and Lewington have both had a go at 15 previously for other clubs so could slot in.

Even as is the Sarries backline post RWC could be Spencer, Farrell, Daly, Thompkins, Lozowski, Maitland, Gallagher. Which is pretty tasty. Drop Lozowski to the bench and move Daly to centre and Lewington to the wing is also an option. Barrett to return as well.

Gallagher was very good at the weekend against Tigers. At 22 he'll keep improving as well. He's got a big boot on him so suits the Sarries game plan as a fullback.

I struggle to see how Sarries hold on to Tompkins longer term. He's an excellent player but will he start ahead of Barritt or Lozowski in the big games? That's if Daly is playing in the back three as well.

Lozowski is out of contract at the end of the season but he's become such a key player for Sarries I can't see him moving on.

If Sarries do indeed need to reduce their squad for cap purposes then there are a lot of very good players for other Prem clubs to go after.

I'd take Nick Isiekwe at Tigers in a heartbeat. Likewise with either Tompkins or Lozowski.

I think Tompkins and Lozowski may well end up the first choice centre combination sooner rather than later. Barrett is 33 and he's put his body through a lot. I'd imagine they'd let him go before Tompkins.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I think Tompkins and Lozowski may well end up the first choice centre combination sooner rather than later. Barrett is 33 and he's put his body through a lot. I'd imagine they'd let him go before Tompkins.

I thought that last season but Barritt still got selected ahead of him for the final despite Tompkins getting a hattrick off the bench in the semi. Guess it's the nature of the depth Sarries have that players have to miss out though.

The Sarries dynamic is very team based as well. Thompkins will know he's got to pay his dues. Barrett is as I said not getting any younger and his body takes a lot of punishment. If Thompkins keeps playing his he has been that 12 shirt will be on his back for years. I'm sure the Sarries hierarchy have discussed the succession plan with him and set him goals to achieve that.

Allegedly Munster will sign De Allende and RG Snyman for next season.

Snyman has a two year deal in Japan, can't remember when their season runs to but the Bulls were hoping to have him back for the 2021 season so he might be a late joiner for Minster next season.

https://m.sport24.co.za/Rugby/SuperRugby/bulls-without-bok-lock-snyman-in-2020-20190514

De Allende is also in Japan.

Signing the pair of them would be massive for Munster. They are outstanding players. Going to be very pricey moves though as most of the rugby world would like to acquire those two.

That's huge if true. It helps to have an SA coach I guess.

Apparently Toulon are swooping for Liam Williams as Ospreys are struggling to meet his salary demands.

Leone Nakarawa is reportedly on the verge of getting sacked by Racing as he hasn't returned to the club following his 15-days mandatory holiday after the RWC. Apparently he hasn't contacted the club either. If Racing let Nakarawa go then clubs will be lining up to sign him.

In even more ridiculous Racing Metro news, Ben Tameifuna has been told to lose weight after returning from Japan 20kg heavier than usual. 

160kg is quite excessive even for a tight head prop!

Pretty sure that Big Ben didn’t spend all his time in Japan eating Peter’s pies and pasties... Racing were responsible for that.

Tameifuna appeared for pre-season last year at a similar mass so he can certainly pack on fat easily enough. Doing so in the Japanese humidity where most players struggled to keep weight on is even more ludicrous though!

He was an absolute weapon at his best for the Chiefs. Since joining Racing he has drifted the way of 'impact sub' though. Fortunately for him props almost always get subbed these days so it's now a viable skill set to offer.

Fluxy wrote:160kg is quite excessive even for a tight head prop!

Yikes 25 stone. Did he have a post Japan holiday at a KFC.

Pretty sure that during the England Tonga game the commentators mentioned that the Tongan team had been frequent visitors to an all you can eat meat restaurant. The commentators jokingly mentioned that they suspected Ben was a big fan of it. Now it seems they were probably right!

How soon before Sarries have to start releasing players? Their two Welsh props would be let go I’m sure?

Crikey, you would imagine the restaurant lost money that day!

It may even have had to close down!

I actually can't stand these, all you can eat places, you just end up stuffing yourself because you think it is free and then feel really ill afterwards!

mikey_dragon wrote:How soon before Sarries have to start releasing players? Their two Welsh props would be let go I’m sure?

Kpoku signed for Saints a couple of weeks back, and I've seen rumours about Isikwe's availability floating about...

I don't imagine it will be too long, and as someone mentioned on a thread somewhere (might even be this one), I expect agent's phones are ringing off the hooks.

That's a phrase which doesn't really apply these days, isn't it?

BigGee wrote:Crikey, you would imagine the restaurant lost money that day!

It may even have had to close down!

I actually can't stand these, all you can eat places, you just end up stuffing yourself because you think it is free and then feel really ill afterwards!

Yet Kalamafoni and TV have returned to Tigers looked fit and ready to go. Maybe they partake more modestly when faced with a buffet.

mikey_dragon wrote:How soon before Sarries have to start releasing players? Their two Welsh props would be let go I’m sure?

The Welsh props would be on pretty cheap contracts so I'd assume they'd be kept on. More likely to see one of Koch or Figallo head off as I'd assume Koch would be on about the same as the two young Welsh lads put together. Unlucky for Carre that he signed before making his international debut.

I would expect Premiership Rugby to ask Sarries to notify them of a squad that was inside the salary cap and then that squad would compete in the league. Any players outside of the squad would then only compete in the cup competitions.

Rinsure wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:How soon before Sarries have to start releasing players? Their two Welsh props would be let go I’m sure?

Kpoku signed for Saints a couple of weeks back, and I've seen rumours about Isikwe's availability floating about...

I don't imagine it will be too long, and as someone mentioned on a thread somewhere (might even be this one), I expect agent's phones are ringing off the hooks.

That's a phrase which doesn't really apply these days, isn't it?

Don't think Saints are allowed to approach or agree to sign players of Kpoku's age before January? I remember Cockers being very annoyed with Bath for doing so with George Ford with his comment of "what can you do when the offer is made over the family dinner table".

Kpoku and Isikwe are both out of contract in the summer hence why there's rumours. Losing Kpoku would do little to help the salary cap over spend. Losing Isikwe who will want international level money may make more impact. I'd expect to see players like Liam Williams and one of the foreign tightheads go first, much larger impacts to the salary overspend and won't effect the club performance as much.

Toronto Wolfpack (playing in RL Super League next season) have announced the signing of SBW - on a reported NZ$10m deal for two years. Rumours that they want to also sign Manu Tuilagi.

LondonTiger wrote:Toronto Wolfpack (playing in RL Super League next season) have announced the signing of SBW - on a reported NZ$10m deal for two years. Rumours that they want to also sign Manu Tuilagi.

Two marquee signings allowed so they could go nuts and offer silly money. Didn't work for Racing and Tigers would want at least a million (pounds sterling) to let him leave. On top of his salary there are the England payments so he's on a good gig here in the UK and his family is based here as well. Toronto will be hard pushed to get that deal done.

They are also rumoured to be targeted NFL pathway players Christian Wade and Valentine Holmes as both have been retained on training contracts but aren't playing. Ben Te'o is another name being bounced around as he only has a short term deal at Toulon.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:How soon before Sarries have to start releasing players? Their two Welsh props would be let go I’m sure?

The Welsh props would be on pretty cheap contracts so I'd assume they'd be kept on. More likely to see one of Koch or Figallo head off as I'd assume Koch would be on about the same as the two young Welsh lads put together. Unlucky for Carre that he signed before making his international debut.

I would expect Premiership Rugby to ask Sarries to notify them of a squad that was inside the salary cap and then that squad would compete in the league. Any players outside of the squad would then only compete in the cup competitions.

Arguably lucky for Carre as signing before making his international debut means he is exempt from 'Gatland's law'.

They are £650k over the cap by my understanding. Williams looking to move on will take a good chunk of that out.

Their issues will be compounded with players such as Isiekwe and Lozowski wanting increases as internationals though, both are out of contract. Most the league will be chasing Isiekwe either way, strong in loose, a rock in set-piece, big hitter in defence and leader to boot.

Good point on Gatland's law. Carre dodged that potential bullet.

If the overspend is only £650k then they can easily bring themselves back under. Liam Williams heading out the door should free up £250-£300k shouldn't it? Don't think he was on ridiculous money as he wanted to move closer to his girlfriend in London, maybe Quins can pick him up? Sacrificing one of their three international tightheads and Kpoku would go a long way as well.

There's some squad players around Sarries that they might opt to cut in order to try and retain the likes of Isikwe and Lozowski as they are talented and versatile players. Malins seems a likely candidate to leave anyway given his position in the squad and if you add in Tongan centre Hakalo in as well there's some extra cap to try and entice those to stay. If Wigglesworth retires replacing him internally and if Singleton isn't getting the nod with England they can dispense with the services of Joe Gray, probably can anyway to be honest he can't be the cheapest fourth choice hooker going.

If not more for Williams. North and Halfpenny got bigger contracts than that when they returned to the regions. AWJ, North and Halfpenny are rumoured to be on £350-370k, which is the threshold for National Dual Contracts. The WRU apparently won't go above the threshold to match Williams demands.

The regions could still push the boat out to sign him outside of a dual contract. This is what Dragons did to bring Moriaty back from Gloucester. They wanted a statement signing and pushed out to a rumoured £450k to bring him in, without a dual contract.

Sarries will need to get under the cap whilst also contending with significant contract increases for players out of contract. That's where I envisage the toughest losses being.

I expect they will make cuts in the front row as you say. 3 international tightheads and 4 hookers leaves room for savings. Given Carre might usurp Barrington as second choice LH that might put one of their long-term servants under pressure.

If Wigglesworth moves on they are rumoured to be in talks with Marmion.

Including loan signing Willemse their senior squad has 26 internationals in it...

Willemse was cancelled due to him being called up by SA wasn't it?

I imagine the Marmion deal might be dead in the water. Can't see them throwing money at an international scrum half when they need to make cuts and have Ben Spencer and the young lad Whitely on the books. I'm sure they can find a solid pro who will do a job.

There was a lot of rumours around the Williams deal that took him to Sarries. One was that the WRU wouldn't give him the top dollar so he looked to Sarries and at the last minute the WRU changed their mind but Williams decided Sarries was a better offer because loving near London allowed him to spend more time with his model girlfriend (can't blame him).

Barrington might end up under pressure but he's exactly the type of squad man they'd want to keep. Never going to get a call up bit always solid and dependable. Given Mako's tendency to pick up injuries they need three good looseheads.

One old dependable who might not make the cut is Duncan Taylor because he spends a lot of time injured.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Willemse was cancelled due to him being called up by SA wasn't it?

Only featured in the PRC so he's exempt from the cap. So 25 internationals in the squad currently.

Wiggleworth replacement will depend how much they think Spencer will miss with England call-ups. The Sarries game plan is very reliant on their 9.

Taylor is in contract until the end of next season. Doesn't always mean a huge amount though these days!

mikey_dragon wrote:How soon before Sarries have to start releasing players? Their two Welsh props would be let go I’m sure?

Having a mental blank. Who is the other Welsh prop to Carre?

Bathite wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:How soon before Sarries have to start releasing players? Their two Welsh props would be let go I’m sure?

Having a mental blank. Who is the other Welsh prop to Carre?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/rugby-union/48327110

Sam Wainwright, another age grader supposedly on the way to the Welsh first team.

Bathite wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:How soon before Sarries have to start releasing players? Their two Welsh props would be let go I’m sure?

Having a mental blank. Who is the other Welsh prop to Carre?

Someone signed from the development team RGC1014?

As Sarries will be over the cap for this season (pending their appeal) they need to find savings now - I wonder if Williams and Goode, who are both out till late January at least and in the last year of their contracts, may be lodged as long term injuries and not used at all this season.