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2019 General Election

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Mon 09 Dec 2019, 12:49 pm

First topic message reminder :

The key questions for me:

How many Leave voters still want Brexit;

Of those who do, how many put Brexit before all else;

What damage the Brexit party will do the the Conservatives' hopes of taking Labour leave seats.

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Post by super_realist on Fri 13 Dec 2019, 10:33 pm

If it didn't appeal to the public then it failed. Appealing to the public is their primary aim.
Labour's job is to win the election with workable policies and a deliverable manifesto that people believe in or at worst provide an effective opposition that can at least threaten to win next time out.  If you think their inability to even get close to any of those is not a failure then you wouldn't know failure if you fell over it.

If Labour were doing an exam and this election was the subject, they would get an F.
There is no way of getting around it. They failed because the aim of an election for either of the two main parties is to gain power. Do you think they aimed to not win?

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 13 Dec 2019, 11:17 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:So only the IndyRef was voted on in Scotland, then? The same way the English abandoned didn’t translate to Scotland, it was just everyone now wanting a referendum?

Scotland diversified away from the rest of the UK with devolution and it has continued to drift away. Politically, Scotland has far different tastes to what gets voted on in the rest of the UK. Also different on the EU issue but that falls on totally death ears to the Tories. They think that this election and the last one or two demonstrates Scotland's support for them even though the Tories have been a minority party in Scotland since the 1950s.

Better Together, Cameron and Mundell after the 2014 referendum harped on about Scotland being in a 'Union of Equals' with us being some sort of a partner. Some partner. Totally ignored in Brexit vote. Totally ignored in Brexit talks and totally ignored every time the SNP whips Tories arse. How does that equate exactly to a 'Union of Equals'?

You’re as bad as a Tory politician, Craig. I support the Scot’s right for an independence referendum, but rabbiting on like this is awful. You got asked a question and just ignored it. It sounds very uninformed Brexit voter (the ones who are blindly uninformed, not all) being given a prescient fact and saying Brexit means Brexit.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 14 Dec 2019, 5:48 am

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:So only the IndyRef was voted on in Scotland, then? The same way the English abandoned didn’t translate to Scotland, it was just everyone now wanting a referendum?

Scotland diversified away from the rest of the UK with devolution and it has continued to drift away. Politically, Scotland has far different tastes to what gets voted on in the rest of the UK. Also different on the EU issue but that falls on totally death ears to the Tories. They think that this election and the last one or two demonstrates Scotland's support for them even though the Tories have been a minority party in Scotland since the 1950s.

Better Together, Cameron and Mundell after the 2014 referendum harped on about Scotland being in a 'Union of Equals' with us being some sort of a partner. Some partner. Totally ignored in Brexit vote. Totally ignored in Brexit talks and totally ignored every time the SNP whips Tories arse. How does that equate exactly to a 'Union of Equals'?

You’re as bad as a Tory politician, Craig. I support the Scot’s right for an independence referendum, but rabbiting on like this is awful. You got asked a question and just ignored it. It sounds very uninformed Brexit voter (the ones who are blindly uninformed, not all) being given a prescient fact and saying Brexit means Brexit.

What question do you want answered?

Of course Scotland alone voted on IndyRef in 2014. And if you will dig in on the grounds it was fought on and look at the promises made then that have either failed to materialise or have turned out to be an exact opposite of what has actually happened it is no doubt why it needs revisiting.

Not being nasty or argumentative but your second question needs putting into coherent English before I can answer.

The truth of the matter is plain for all to see. Pre-2014 the SNP had 6 MPs at Westminster. Post-2014 it has mushroomed to returning the most MPs at every election since both at Westminster and in Scottish elections by some distance. Why do you think that is?
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Post by super_realist on Sat 14 Dec 2019, 7:28 am

Craig, I've asked I don't know how many times for you to give me the best reason why you think Scotland will be better off Independent and you keep ignoring it. So far the best you have done is give me "baby boxes"

Scotland doesn't have significant sources of income, has lower income tax receipts per head and has massive debt which excludes them from EU membership.
You seem as dishonest and swerving as a Brexit voter because you won't answer why you want to leave. If it's just because you want away from Westminster and would rather be governed by the poorly educated moron's we have in the Scottish Parliament then fine, but why is it you can't give a straight answer to a straight question?

What is it you think will be so beneficial to Scotland about having independence, and don't say "because we'll get the government we voted for" because that's a pathetic reason and applies to anyone in the world who doesn't get the party they voted for.

By the way, polling against Independence has always been the most common position. Even now after all that has gone on, support for independence is a minority.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sat 14 Dec 2019, 7:58 am

It’s coherent enough even though it could use the word Labour Very Happy

My problem here Craig is that you are framing everything through IndyRef. Could it be about anything else? It has been about many things in England, not just Brexit, and to say it’s only about your referendum is as blatant a piece of political bulls*** as shouting Get Brexit Done.

It just seems to forget that the last one didn’t go your way. I’m not Scottish nor live in Scotland, so I don’t have much an opinion, but I think it weakens your cause and your point in general to just go rhetoric. Labour have been abandoned in England, that can definitely apply for Scotland. You can’t say every vote was an IndyRef vote

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Post by super_realist on Sat 14 Dec 2019, 8:07 am

Only an idiot would claim that every vote was an Independence vote Craig
I would say it had far more to do with Labour and Tories being ineffective in Scotland.
If you are claiming that all votes In Scotland are to do with  independence, then good luck in any referendum because its still the same 45% as before.
Most people don't want independence and most don't seem to agree with your hackneyed claim that "we don't get the government we voted for" diatribe. They accept like adults that we don't always get what we want, unfortunately the SNP have never been good at accepting the result of democratic processes

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Post by GSC on Sat 14 Dec 2019, 9:45 am

SecretFly wrote:
GSC wrote:good to see McCluskey pinning the blame everywhere else when in reality he is as culpable as anyone for the failure that was Corbyns Labour

Why should so many people be concerned that a party 'failed'?  It didn't fail.  It just simply didn't appeal to the voting public.  The public didn't want the policies.  But the public still voted, and they got what they wanted.  No need for anger at or sympathy for a thing called Labour.  If it wanted to be more appealing at this moment in history it would have to have been more like the Conservatives.  And what the hell is the point in that? - mimic the enemy just to get elected?  No way! scream traditionalist party activists.  We must be against that which the Tories are for!

Sometimes I think commentators feel that a party's role is to shape the mind of the electorate - and therefore 'fail' is the grade when they lose seats.  But my opinion is that a party should listen to the mind of the electorate.  The UK electorate has been confirming over and over and over again that they want Brexit to happen and a new chapter to begin.  The politicians can fret and moan, and resist all they like but that was the clear message.  And yet all Labour and the Lib Dems could advance is that the majority Brexiteers were simply wrong in their choice and should be coaxed to change their mind.  Labour lost seats because it wouldn't change its mind and accept that many of its natural voters wanted Brexit.  But again, that couldn't happen because the arch enemy Conservatives stole that platform.  
No tears for Labour.  Labour voters voted for other ideals....and won.
If the ultimate goal was to become a protest party rather than prospective government in waiting then sure. But that wasnt and hasnt been the aim at any stage. This has been years of failure as the opposition party against one of the weakest governments they could hope to come up against

Labour might well have lost this election because of Brexit but that doesnt take into account that brexit was the central theme of this election partly because Labour did it's very best to pretend it wasnt an issue in the years prior. In the end they even gave Boris his GE centred on Brexit.

Someone has to lose an election, that's a given. But this Labour leadership has been a failure for years.
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Post by GSC on Sat 14 Dec 2019, 9:46 am

even now it looks like hes going to cling on until the heat dies down and the party can elect his chosen successor.
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Post by alfie on Sat 14 Dec 2019, 11:42 am

They should have pushed Corbyn under a bus months ago...it was clear enough he was a liability ; not that a win was ever possible but a seriously electable leader might have at least presented a contest. Apart from appearing as a sort of elderly uncle his 1950s socialism was never likely to be a winner in the modern world - and a couple of years of waffling about Brexit without ever enunciating what he really believed was in the national interest meant that no one was even prepared to believe any of his promises...
His supporters still want to spin this as All About Brexit : but it won't wash. They need to come back to earth and offer a realistic alternative to what is , after all , a Tory government massively lacking in recent achievements or any serious claims to competence.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 14 Dec 2019, 12:14 pm

GSC wrote:even now it looks like hes going to cling on until the heat dies down and the party can elect his chosen successor.

If Corbyn actually wanted to stay on - and he’s deluded enough and thick enough to believe that he can turn this around - then it would actually be very difficult for the Labour Party to remove him as the cult of Jeremy still lives on amongst the membership.

I said it at the time, his ‘resignation’ speech at the count in Islington was very odd. He specified he wouldn’t lead Labour into another general election, an event that is likely 4-5 years away.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 14 Dec 2019, 12:35 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:It’s coherent enough even though it could use the word Labour Very Happy

My problem here Craig is that you are framing everything through IndyRef. Could it be about anything else? It has been about many things in England, not just Brexit, and to say it’s only about your referendum is as blatant a piece of political bulls*** as shouting Get Brexit Done.

It just seems to forget that the last one didn’t go your way. I’m not Scottish nor live in Scotland, so I don’t have much an opinion, but I think it weakens your cause and your point in general to just go rhetoric. Labour have been abandoned in England, that can definitely apply for Scotland. You can’t say every vote was an IndyRef vote

Take a look at Lord Ashdown's exit poll done at the election.

One question asked of SNP voters on exiting the polls was: If Brexit had not been an issue what do you think you would have done?

87% said they'd have still voted SNP.

Nicola Sturgeon herself realises not everyone that voted SNP are necessarily Yes voters.

However, the same can be said of those that voted for unionist parties. The Tories are automatically pinning them down as supporting the union. That is not true either. I know of many Labour voters who support independence. And yes even last time around Tory voters voted Yes.

The Lord Ashdown poll can be found here:-

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/12/how-britain-voted-and-why-my-2019-general-election-post-vote-poll/#more-16379
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Post by LadyPutt on Sat 14 Dec 2019, 4:33 pm

super_realist wrote:Only an idiot would claim that every vote was an Independence vote Craig
I would say it had far more to do with Labour and Tories being ineffective in Scotland.
If you are claiming that all votes In Scotland are to do with  independence, then good luck in any referendum because its still the same 45% as before.
Most people don't want independence and most don't seem to agree with your hackneyed claim that "we don't get the government we voted for" diatribe. They accept like adults that we don't always get what we want, unfortunately the SNP have never been good at accepting the result of democratic processes
Well, Super, I don’t always agree with you but for once you are spot on.
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Post by GSC on Sat 14 Dec 2019, 9:23 pm

Duty281 wrote:
GSC wrote:even now it looks like hes going to cling on until the heat dies down and the party can elect his chosen successor.

If Corbyn actually wanted to stay on - and he’s deluded enough and thick enough to believe that he can turn this around - then it would actually be very difficult for the Labour Party to remove him as the cult of Jeremy still lives on amongst the membership.

I said it at the time, his ‘resignation’ speech at the count in Islington was very odd. He specified he wouldn’t lead Labour into another general election, an event that is likely 4-5 years away.
I dont think theres any chance he'll be leader in a years time, I just think hes riding out the storm until the narrative that Brexit lost the election holds, and he can be sure hes handing off to someone who shares his politics. If he walks now theres every chance someone like Keir Starmer fills the void while his supporters are licking their wounds. Especially when Pidcock lost her seat so the chosen successor is gone.
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sun 15 Dec 2019, 12:50 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:It’s coherent enough even though it could use the word Labour Very Happy

My problem here Craig is that you are framing everything through IndyRef. Could it be about anything else? It has been about many things in England, not just Brexit, and to say it’s only about your referendum is as blatant a piece of political bulls*** as shouting Get Brexit Done.

It just seems to forget that the last one didn’t go your way. I’m not Scottish nor live in Scotland, so I don’t have much an opinion, but I think it weakens your cause and your point in general to just go rhetoric. Labour have been abandoned in England, that can definitely apply for Scotland. You can’t say every vote was an IndyRef vote

Take a look at Lord Ashdown's exit poll done at the election.

One question asked of SNP voters on exiting the polls was: If Brexit had not been an issue what do you think you would have done?

87% said they'd have still voted SNP.

Nicola Sturgeon herself realises not everyone that voted SNP are necessarily Yes voters.

However, the same can be said of those that voted for unionist parties. The Tories are automatically pinning them down as supporting the union. That is not true either. I know of many Labour voters who support independence. And yes even last time around Tory voters voted Yes.

The Lord Ashdown poll can be found here:-

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/12/how-britain-voted-and-why-my-2019-general-election-post-vote-poll/#more-16379

Well, that is both a weird thing to ask, and also you have thus surely decided they can only be voting for a referendum.

Do you not accept that the amount of people who have stopped voting Labour in England, obviously nothing to do with Scotland, could have been mirrored in Scotland?

I’m not 100% sure that supports you, by the way. A lot of your confidence on a referendum is based on how Scotland is being forced out of the EU. But people are voting without Brexit in mind?

It seems as silly as saying this election is a clear indication the people want Brexit done.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 15 Dec 2019, 4:59 am

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:It’s coherent enough even though it could use the word Labour Very Happy

My problem here Craig is that you are framing everything through IndyRef. Could it be about anything else? It has been about many things in England, not just Brexit, and to say it’s only about your referendum is as blatant a piece of political bulls*** as shouting Get Brexit Done.

It just seems to forget that the last one didn’t go your way. I’m not Scottish nor live in Scotland, so I don’t have much an opinion, but I think it weakens your cause and your point in general to just go rhetoric. Labour have been abandoned in England, that can definitely apply for Scotland. You can’t say every vote was an IndyRef vote

Take a look at Lord Ashdown's exit poll done at the election.

One question asked of SNP voters on exiting the polls was: If Brexit had not been an issue what do you think you would have done?

87% said they'd have still voted SNP.

Nicola Sturgeon herself realises not everyone that voted SNP are necessarily Yes voters.

However, the same can be said of those that voted for unionist parties. The Tories are automatically pinning them down as supporting the union. That is not true either. I know of many Labour voters who support independence. And yes even last time around Tory voters voted Yes.

The Lord Ashdown poll can be found here:-

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/12/how-britain-voted-and-why-my-2019-general-election-post-vote-poll/#more-16379

Well, that is both a weird thing to ask, and also you have thus surely decided they can only be voting for a referendum.

Do you not accept that the amount of people who have stopped voting Labour in England, obviously nothing to do with Scotland, could have been mirrored in Scotland?

I’m not 100% sure that supports you, by the way. A lot of your confidence on a referendum is based on how Scotland is being forced out of the EU. But people are voting without Brexit in mind?

It seems as silly as saying this election is a clear indication the people want Brexit done.

Well 87% of SNP voters walked in to vote at thatelection stating they would have done so regardless of Brexit so if it was not Brexit then what was the reason? If not independence support then why? Remember the SNP have been in power in Holyrood for over eight years. The fact their support is strengthening suggests one of two things people on this board cannot stomach but the truth hurts. Either that 87% want another IndyRef and change from this road they are being dragged down by Westminster or they are fundamentally happy with how the SNP are governing. It is either one or the other. Take your pick.

Sure Labour voters in Scotland will also have voted elsewhere for same reasons as in the rest of the UK. For sure. However, I know of many people (some good friends) who vote Labour and support Scottish independence. And yes even the odd few Tory supporters even do too. Those that support independence come from a wider political spectrum than just the SNP you know. It is undeniable though that the SNP's raison d'etre is independence for Scotland and they could not be any clearer on that. I would say that 90% of their voters are strong independence supporters to a great degree with, to a lesser degree, people far from closed to the idea of independence but none that would always refuse independence.

And Brexit is just one of many reasons why more people support independence now. I know of many who feel cheated (some friends and some acquaintances on social media) by false promises made by Better Together in 2014. Promises such as more devolved powers to Holyrood (the opposite has happened). Promises of protection of pensions (eh the Tories aided by their think tank led by Iain Duncan-Smith want to increase retirement age to beyond that of average Scot's lifespan). Promises that we were a valued partner in a 'Union of Equals' - what happened with Brexit? The Scottish Government had no say whatsoever in Brexit negotiations. How is that any way to treat 'a valued partner'. And Mundell's rhetoric once a No vote was returned changed a few years later to 'Scotland is not a partner it is a part of the UK'. These and more reasons have fuelled the fire.


Last edited by CaledonianCraig on Sun 15 Dec 2019, 9:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by super_realist on Sun 15 Dec 2019, 9:24 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:It’s coherent enough even though it could use the word Labour Very Happy

My problem here Craig is that you are framing everything through IndyRef. Could it be about anything else? It has been about many things in England, not just Brexit, and to say it’s only about your referendum is as blatant a piece of political bulls*** as shouting Get Brexit Done.

It just seems to forget that the last one didn’t go your way. I’m not Scottish nor live in Scotland, so I don’t have much an opinion, but I think it weakens your cause and your point in general to just go rhetoric. Labour have been abandoned in England, that can definitely apply for Scotland. You can’t say every vote was an IndyRef vote

Take a look at Lord Ashdown's exit poll done at the election.

One question asked of SNP voters on exiting the polls was: If Brexit had not been an issue what do you think you would have done?

87% said they'd have still voted SNP.

Nicola Sturgeon herself realises not everyone that voted SNP are necessarily Yes voters.

However, the same can be said of those that voted for unionist parties. The Tories are automatically pinning them down as supporting the union. That is not true either. I know of many Labour voters who support independence. And yes even last time around Tory voters voted Yes.

The Lord Ashdown poll can be found here:-

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/12/how-britain-voted-and-why-my-2019-general-election-post-vote-poll/#more-16379

Lord Ashdown? Poor old paddy croaked it a while back.

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Post by super_realist on Sun 15 Dec 2019, 9:28 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:It’s coherent enough even though it could use the word Labour Very Happy

My problem here Craig is that you are framing everything through IndyRef. Could it be about anything else? It has been about many things in England, not just Brexit, and to say it’s only about your referendum is as blatant a piece of political bulls*** as shouting Get Brexit Done.

It just seems to forget that the last one didn’t go your way. I’m not Scottish nor live in Scotland, so I don’t have much an opinion, but I think it weakens your cause and your point in general to just go rhetoric. Labour have been abandoned in England, that can definitely apply for Scotland. You can’t say every vote was an IndyRef vote

Take a look at Lord Ashdown's exit poll done at the election.

One question asked of SNP voters on exiting the polls was: If Brexit had not been an issue what do you think you would have done?

87% said they'd have still voted SNP.

Nicola Sturgeon herself realises not everyone that voted SNP are necessarily Yes voters.

However, the same can be said of those that voted for unionist parties. The Tories are automatically pinning them down as supporting the union. That is not true either. I know of many Labour voters who support independence. And yes even last time around Tory voters voted Yes.

The Lord Ashdown poll can be found here:-

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/12/how-britain-voted-and-why-my-2019-general-election-post-vote-poll/#more-16379

Well, that is both a weird thing to ask, and also you have thus surely decided they can only be voting for a referendum.

Do you not accept that the amount of people who have stopped voting Labour in England, obviously nothing to do with Scotland, could have been mirrored in Scotland?

I’m not 100% sure that supports you, by the way. A lot of your confidence on a referendum is based on how Scotland is being forced out of the EU. But people are voting without Brexit in mind?

It seems as silly as saying this election is a clear indication the people want Brexit done.

Well 87% of SNP voters walked in to vote at thatelection stating they would have done so regardless of Brexit so if it was not Brexit then what was the reason? If not independence support then why? Remember the SNP have been in power in Holyrood for over eight years. The fact their support is strengthening.suggests one of two things people on this board canmot stomach but the truth hurts. Either that 87% want another IndyRef and change from this road they are being dragged down by Westminster or they are fundamentally happy with how the SNP are governing. It is either one or the other. Take your pick.

Sure Labour voters in Scotland will also have voted elsewhere for same reasons as in the rest of the UK. For sure. However, I know of many people (some good friends) who vote Labour and support Scottish independence. And yes even the odd few Tory supporters even do too. Those that support independence come from a wider political spectrum than just the SNP you know. It is undeniable though that the SNP's raison d'etre is independence for Scotland and they could not be any clearer on that. I would say that 90% of their voters are strong independence supporters to a great degree with, to a lesser degree, people far from closed to the idea of independence but none that would always refuse independence.

And Brexit is just one of many reasons why more people support independence now. I know of many who feel cheated (some friends and some acquaintances on social media) by false promises made by Better Together in 2014. Promises such as more devolved pewers to Holyrood (the opposite has happened). Promises of protection of pensions (eh the Tories aided by their think tank led by Iain Duncan-Smith want to increase retirement age to beyond that of average Scot's lifespan). Promises that we were a valued partner in a 'Union of Equals' - what happened with Brexit? The Scottish Government had no say whatsoever in Brexit negotiations. How is that any way to treat 'a valued partner'. And Mundell's rhetoric once a No vote was returned changed a few years later to 'Scotland is not a partner it is a part of the UK'. These and more reasons have fuelled the fire.

Craig, you seem to completely ignore that in the face of a terrible Labour that the SNP offer the lefty substitute. It's incredibly naïve to suggest that just because some tinpot poll of a few dozen people you have found claims that people would vote for the SNP even without Brexit doesn't answer why they did actually vote for the SNP. You make the credulous and hopeful claim that they did it for Independence, not because you have any evidence for it, because that's your agenda, but you don't actually know why they are doing it. You are using confirmation bias from your vote and applying it to everyone else who voted for them.

Again, I'm still waiting for you to explain why you think a Scotland independent of the UK would be a good thing, I've been trying for weeks now with you.  Funny you complain about the average life expectancy of some people in Glasgow, though don't attack the SNP for failing to do anything about it when they've had, as you agree many years in charge for which to do it.

You are as blinkered as the party you support and really struggle to look at things without your yellow tinted Krankie glasses on.


Last edited by super_realist on Sun 15 Dec 2019, 11:43 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sun 15 Dec 2019, 10:24 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:It’s coherent enough even though it could use the word Labour Very Happy

My problem here Craig is that you are framing everything through IndyRef. Could it be about anything else? It has been about many things in England, not just Brexit, and to say it’s only about your referendum is as blatant a piece of political bulls*** as shouting Get Brexit Done.

It just seems to forget that the last one didn’t go your way. I’m not Scottish nor live in Scotland, so I don’t have much an opinion, but I think it weakens your cause and your point in general to just go rhetoric. Labour have been abandoned in England, that can definitely apply for Scotland. You can’t say every vote was an IndyRef vote

Take a look at Lord Ashdown's exit poll done at the election.

One question asked of SNP voters on exiting the polls was: If Brexit had not been an issue what do you think you would have done?

87% said they'd have still voted SNP.

Nicola Sturgeon herself realises not everyone that voted SNP are necessarily Yes voters.

However, the same can be said of those that voted for unionist parties. The Tories are automatically pinning them down as supporting the union. That is not true either. I know of many Labour voters who support independence. And yes even last time around Tory voters voted Yes.

The Lord Ashdown poll can be found here:-

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/12/how-britain-voted-and-why-my-2019-general-election-post-vote-poll/#more-16379

Well, that is both a weird thing to ask, and also you have thus surely decided they can only be voting for a referendum.

Do you not accept that the amount of people who have stopped voting Labour in England, obviously nothing to do with Scotland, could have been mirrored in Scotland?

I’m not 100% sure that supports you, by the way. A lot of your confidence on a referendum is based on how Scotland is being forced out of the EU. But people are voting without Brexit in mind?

It seems as silly as saying this election is a clear indication the people want Brexit done.

Well 87% of SNP voters walked in to vote at thatelection stating they would have done so regardless of Brexit so if it was not Brexit then what was the reason? If not independence support then why? Remember the SNP have been in power in Holyrood for over eight years. The fact their support is strengthening suggests one of two things people on this board cannot stomach but the truth hurts. Either that 87% want another IndyRef and change from this road they are being dragged down by Westminster or they are fundamentally happy with how the SNP are governing. It is either one or the other. Take your pick.

Sure Labour voters in Scotland will also have voted elsewhere for same reasons as in the rest of the UK. For sure. However, I know of many people (some good friends) who vote Labour and support Scottish independence. And yes even the odd few Tory supporters even do too. Those that support independence come from a wider political spectrum than just the SNP you know. It is undeniable though that the SNP's raison d'etre is independence for Scotland and they could not be any clearer on that. I would say that 90% of their voters are strong independence supporters to a great degree with, to a lesser degree, people far from closed to the idea of independence but none that would always refuse independence.

And Brexit is just one of many reasons why more people support independence now. I know of many who feel cheated (some friends and some acquaintances on social media) by false promises made by Better Together in 2014. Promises such as more devolved powers to Holyrood (the opposite has happened). Promises of protection of pensions (eh the Tories aided by their think tank led by Iain Duncan-Smith want to increase retirement age to beyond that of average Scot's lifespan). Promises that we were a valued partner in a 'Union of Equals' - what happened with Brexit? The Scottish Government had no say whatsoever in Brexit negotiations. How is that any way to treat 'a valued partner'. And Mundell's rhetoric once a No vote was returned changed a few years later to 'Scotland is not a partner it is a part of the UK'. These and more reasons have fuelled the fire.

Look, you are gonna have to stop this holier than thou "truths you cant accept" stuff. I support the right for an independence referendum based on what has happened, but most of us generally and genuinely do not care that much about Scotland. If you're part of a political union with us still then I want you to get the same benefits as anyone else, treated properly and within a working NHS system etc. But I don't sit here with any pride that we are teamed with the Scots, it has no emotional hold on my life.

I would assume their stance of a referendum isn't the only reason people vote for them or all they're good for, so whilst their reputation is indyref based, people will vote for what does them best. It could be that they were the best party for them at that time and they don't see a referendum as a drawback or they don't see it as happening again so soon.

"Either that 87% want another IndyRef and change from this road they are being dragged down by Westminster or they are fundamentally happy with how the SNP are governing. It is either one or the other. Take your pick." Maybe they are happy with the governance and/or want a change from other parties they voted for.

I think your belief that to vote for the SNP you have to be behind a referendum is biased, simply put. I am not some mad Lib Dem supporter, but I didn't want to vote Labour and, mostly, I wanted to oppose the Tories.

You and many others need to come round to the fact that people voting the same as you do not have to have much in common with your stronger opinions, nor does social media volume mean, well, anything.

I think it would be frankly dangerous to go out tomorrow and demand a referendum unless they are really 100% sure they'll win. Mostly, though, I think emotion should be no part of such a thing and a political forecast of the positives and negatives should be drawn up and then a decision should be made by politicians based on that. If they can do it without bias, which I doubt personally, and find it would really be the best, to steal a phrase, the many and not the few, then go for it.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Sun 15 Dec 2019, 10:33 am

John McDonnell is still in full blown denial mode, he's also blindly backing a female leader irregardless of whether it's the best person. His backing of Long-Bailey and Rayner shows the unfortunate direction the party will take.

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Post by Muscular-mouse on Sun 15 Dec 2019, 1:46 pm

super_realist wrote:Only an idiot would claim that every vote was an Independence vote Craig
I would say it had far more to do with Labour and Tories being ineffective in Scotland.
If you are claiming that all votes In Scotland are to do with  independence, then good luck in any referendum because its still the same 45% as before.
Most people don't want independence and most don't seem to agree with your hackneyed claim that "we don't get the government we voted for" diatribe. They accept like adults that we don't always get what we want, unfortunately the SNP have never been good at accepting the result of democratic processes

I think it the election result does show Scotland wants independence. The SNP have won every single election in the past 5 years from uk general elections, European election, local elections and Scottish parliament elections. The SNP main pledge is independence. Only a turkey would vote for them if they wanted to remain in the UK.

Either way it is up to the Scottish people to decide and if they keep voting SNP then a 2nd referendum should be given.

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Post by super_realist on Sun 15 Dec 2019, 2:23 pm

Muscular-mouse wrote:
super_realist wrote:Only an idiot would claim that every vote was an Independence vote Craig
I would say it had far more to do with Labour and Tories being ineffective in Scotland.
If you are claiming that all votes In Scotland are to do with  independence, then good luck in any referendum because its still the same 45% as before.
Most people don't want independence and most don't seem to agree with your hackneyed claim that "we don't get the government we voted for" diatribe. They accept like adults that we don't always get what we want, unfortunately the SNP have never been good at accepting the result of democratic processes

I think it the election result does show Scotland wants independence. The SNP have won every single election in the past 5 years from uk general elections, European election, local elections and Scottish parliament elections. The SNP main pledge is independence. Only a turkey would vote for them if they wanted to remain in the UK.

Either way it is up to the Scottish people to decide and if they keep voting SNP then a 2nd referendum should be given.

I take it you don't live in Scotland then? Furthermore even though the SNP have the most seats, they still have a MINORITY of the votes and also more people voted to stay in the union and voted to leave the EU than have ever voted for the SNP in any election ever.

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Post by Muscular-mouse on Sun 15 Dec 2019, 4:05 pm

super_realist wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
super_realist wrote:Only an idiot would claim that every vote was an Independence vote Craig
I would say it had far more to do with Labour and Tories being ineffective in Scotland.
If you are claiming that all votes In Scotland are to do with  independence, then good luck in any referendum because its still the same 45% as before.
Most people don't want independence and most don't seem to agree with your hackneyed claim that "we don't get the government we voted for" diatribe. They accept like adults that we don't always get what we want, unfortunately the SNP have never been good at accepting the result of democratic processes

I think it the election result does show Scotland wants independence. The SNP have won every single election in the past 5 years from uk general elections, European election, local elections and Scottish parliament elections. The SNP main pledge is independence. Only a turkey would vote for them if they wanted to remain in the UK.

Either way it is up to the Scottish people to decide and if they keep voting SNP then a 2nd referendum should be given.

I take it you don't live in Scotland then? Furthermore even though the SNP have the most seats, they still have a MINORITY of the votes and also more people voted to stay in the union and voted to leave the EU than have ever voted for the SNP in any election ever.

Well lets see if the majority want to stay in the uk, lets have another referendum. The SNP support over the past 5 years show that a 2nd referendum should be given.

The Scottish parliament elections are in 2021 and if the SNP win that (which I would bet my mortgage on) than there can be no argument that the Scottish people want a 2nd referendum.

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Post by super_realist on Sun 15 Dec 2019, 4:11 pm

What a stupid rationale for having a referendum. You can't just keep having them to test the electorate. We decided strongly in 2014 that we didn't want independence.

You seem to infer that a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence or a referendum, when even the SNP admit themselves is not 100% correct. They estimate that around 20% are not in support of a referendum. Like Craig you seem to overlook that Scotland is inherently left of centre, and as such the far left Labour party isn't an effective side to pick and there's no chance they would go Tory.

Are you also going to ignore that the SNP vote is still a minority? So even if they all wanted Independence, they'd still not get it.

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Post by Muscular-mouse on Sun 15 Dec 2019, 4:19 pm

super_realist wrote:What a stupid rationale for having a referendum. You can't just keep having them to test the electorate. We decided strongly in 2014 that we didn't want independence.

You seem to infer that a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence or a referendum, when even the SNP admit themselves is not 100% correct. They estimate that around 20% are not in support of a referendum. Like Craig you seem to overlook that Scotland is inherently left of centre, and as such the far left Labour party isn't an effective side to pick and there's no chance they would go Tory.

Are you also going to ignore that the SNP vote is still a minority? So even if they all wanted Independence, they'd still not get it.

If it was a 1 off election result win for the snp then yes I would agree with you, but they have won every election in Scotland for the past 5 years.

I am not saying Scotland will vote for independence, I am arguing there are legitimate grounds for holding another referendum. Promises were broken in the 2014 referendum and the SNP have won every election.

If the SNP performed poorly in the elections over the past 5 years there would literally be no basis for a 2nd referendum. The only reason we are having that conversation is because they are winning. They are winning because the Scottish people want a 2nd referendum.


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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 15 Dec 2019, 4:24 pm

Muscular-mouse wrote:
super_realist wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
super_realist wrote:Only an idiot would claim that every vote was an Independence vote Craig
I would say it had far more to do with Labour and Tories being ineffective in Scotland.
If you are claiming that all votes In Scotland are to do with  independence, then good luck in any referendum because its still the same 45% as before.
Most people don't want independence and most don't seem to agree with your hackneyed claim that "we don't get the government we voted for" diatribe. They accept like adults that we don't always get what we want, unfortunately the SNP have never been good at accepting the result of democratic processes

I think it the election result does show Scotland wants independence. The SNP have won every single election in the past 5 years from uk general elections, European election, local elections and Scottish parliament elections. The SNP main pledge is independence. Only a turkey would vote for them if they wanted to remain in the UK.

Either way it is up to the Scottish people to decide and if they keep voting SNP then a 2nd referendum should be given.

I take it you don't live in Scotland then? Furthermore even though the SNP have the most seats, they still have a MINORITY of the votes and also more people voted to stay in the union and voted to leave the EU than have ever voted for the SNP in any election ever.

Well lets see if the majority want to stay in the uk, lets have another referendum. The SNP support over the past 5 years show that a 2nd referendum should be given.

The Scottish parliament elections are in 2021 and if the SNP win that (which I would bet my mortgage on) than there can be no argument that the Scottish people want a 2nd referendum.

Spot on.

Lets see. Right now unionist Tories claim that SNP does not have a mandate as they only got 45% vote share. Those goalposts have been moved again. After the 2016 election the unionists said you don't have a mandate because you didn't win majority of seats. They'll take Nicola's word that she realises not all SNP voters are necessarily Yes voters but they won't dare admit that Labour and Tory voters support independence. And they do - I know of Labour voters at work and through social media who openly state that.


Last edited by CaledonianCraig on Sun 15 Dec 2019, 5:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by super_realist on Sun 15 Dec 2019, 4:32 pm

Still sidestepping your best reason to have Independence (again and again and again) I see.

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Post by super_realist on Sun 15 Dec 2019, 4:36 pm

Muscular-mouse wrote:
super_realist wrote:What a stupid rationale for having a referendum. You can't just keep having them to test the electorate. We decided strongly in 2014 that we didn't want independence.

You seem to infer that a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence or a referendum, when even the SNP admit themselves is not 100% correct. They estimate that around 20% are not in support of a referendum. Like Craig you seem to overlook that Scotland is inherently left of centre, and as such the far left Labour party isn't an effective side to pick and there's no chance they would go Tory.

Are you also going to ignore that the SNP vote is still a minority? So even if they all wanted Independence, they'd still not get it.

If it was a 1 off election result win for the snp then yes I would agree with you, but they have won every election in Scotland for the past 5 years.

I am not saying Scotland will vote for independence, I am arguing there are legitimate grounds for holding another referendum. Promises were broken in the 2014 referendum and the SNP have won every election.

If the SNP performed poorly in the elections over the past 5 years there would literally be no basis for a 2nd referendum. The only reason we are having that conversation is because they are winning. They are winning because the Scottish people want a 2nd referendum.


What promises? I keep hearing people claiming that, but no SNP supporter ever brings up what they would like control of under an independent Scotland that they can't do now. The SNP are exactly the same as Brexit supporters. Never can back up why they want it. They just do. It's pathetic.

There is no evidence that the people of Scotland want a 2nd referendum. Electing the SNP doesn't mean that the majority want Independence, it's like suggesting that all those northern Labour supporters who voted Tory on Thursday want a right wing government. There's a massive amount of reasons why you might vote for a party, you, wrongly are suggesting that it can only be one reason.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 15 Dec 2019, 4:41 pm

Not sure why Scottish ‘Independence’ supporters want another vote on the issue. There’s only been two polls in the last three and a half years showing a lead for ‘independence’, indicating that the ‘independence’ movement has as much chance of winning a referendum as Labour did of winning the most recent GE. If ‘independence’ supporters were to lose a second referendum, it really would nail the issue shut for a long time.

And if there is to be another referendum, the ‘independence’ side need a much broader coalition of supporters than just the SNP.

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Post by super_realist on Sun 15 Dec 2019, 4:43 pm

Also, the lying SNP have also previously claimed they wouldn't hold a referendum until they had around 60% support. Now all of a sudden they want to have another.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Sun 15 Dec 2019, 5:13 pm

Great reasoning for a new vote there?

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 15 Dec 2019, 5:19 pm

Duty281 wrote:Not sure why Scottish ‘Independence’ supporters want another vote on the issue. There’s only been two polls in the last three and a half years showing a lead for ‘independence’, indicating that the ‘independence’ movement has as much chance of winning a referendum as Labour did of winning the most recent GE. If ‘independence’ supporters were to lose a second referendum, it really would nail the issue shut for a long time.

And if there is to be another referendum, the ‘independence’ side need a much broader coalition of supporters than just the SNP.

The broad spectrum is already there. Research polls show that in 2014 the Yes vote was made up of 87% of SNP voters, 37% of Labour voters, 39% of Lib Dem voters and 5% of Tory voters.
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Post by Muscular-mouse on Sun 15 Dec 2019, 6:43 pm

super_realist wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
super_realist wrote:What a stupid rationale for having a referendum. You can't just keep having them to test the electorate. We decided strongly in 2014 that we didn't want independence.

You seem to infer that a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence or a referendum, when even the SNP admit themselves is not 100% correct. They estimate that around 20% are not in support of a referendum. Like Craig you seem to overlook that Scotland is inherently left of centre, and as such the far left Labour party isn't an effective side to pick and there's no chance they would go Tory.

Are you also going to ignore that the SNP vote is still a minority? So even if they all wanted Independence, they'd still not get it.

If it was a 1 off election result win for the snp then yes I would agree with you, but they have won every election in Scotland for the past 5 years.

I am not saying Scotland will vote for independence, I am arguing there are legitimate grounds for holding another referendum. Promises were broken in the 2014 referendum and the SNP have won every election.

If the SNP performed poorly in the elections over the past 5 years there would literally be no basis for a 2nd referendum. The only reason we are having that conversation is because they are winning. They are winning because the Scottish people want a 2nd referendum.


What promises? I keep hearing people claiming that, but no SNP supporter ever brings up what they would like control of under an independent Scotland that they can't do now. The SNP are exactly the same as Brexit supporters. Never can back up why they want it. They just do. It's pathetic.

There is no evidence that the people of Scotland want a 2nd referendum. Electing the SNP doesn't mean that the majority want Independence, it's like suggesting that all those northern Labour supporters who voted Tory on Thursday want a right wing government. There's a massive amount of reasons why you might vote for a party, you, wrongly are suggesting that it can only be one reason.

Well an independent Scotland could join the EU (or remain in the EU).
Before the referendum Scotland was promised extensive new powers if they voted to remain, they never got these.
Independent Scotland could reverse austerity.
Independent Scotland could scrap trident nuclear weapons,

But the main issue is Scotland is very different politically to the rest of the UK, and an independent Scotland could govern how they want (left wing, socialist ideas) this was another broken promise from the referendum as Scotland was promised that by voting to remain they would be treated as equals in the UK partnership. Instead they are treated as 2nd class as whatever decision England makes, Scotland is forced to follow.

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Post by Muscular-mouse on Sun 15 Dec 2019, 6:45 pm

Duty281 wrote:Not sure why Scottish ‘Independence’ supporters want another vote on the issue. There’s only been two polls in the last three and a half years showing a lead for ‘independence’, indicating that the ‘independence’ movement has as much chance of winning a referendum as Labour did of winning the most recent GE. If ‘independence’ supporters were to lose a second referendum, it really would nail the issue shut for a long time.

And if there is to be another referendum, the ‘independence’ side need a much broader coalition of supporters than just the SNP.

I suppose you could have used that same logic before the Brexit referendum was announced. Politics is a funny old game and doesn't take much to persuade people to change their minds as shown by brexit.

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Post by tigertattie on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 12:10 am

Why are we second class citizens?

Because we didn’t want brexit but it’s happening because England and Wales wanted it?

As one family you go with the majority. You can’t pick and chose your decisions.

In and independent Scotland would Orkney and Shetland then demand their own independence as they vote for Lib Dem’s and therefore it’s not fair that they are governed by either the SNP or labour government as voted for by Glasgow!??

I’ve still never seen a valid and balanced argument for independence that can show how Scotland would be better off going alone.

Currency. Pensions. The economy. Health. Welfare. Taxation. Nothing, not a peep.

All I hear is “we want to control our own destiny” “oh but we’re happy to have rules imposed by Brussels, just not Westminster”
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 4:08 am

Shall we look at the EU?

On Brexit they had a system in place where every EU member country have to agree before moving onto a next stage. One country not happy? The process is halted. Now look at how the UK dealt with it? Quite differently? Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain. Tough. They are leaving - like it or lump it and no say on it. Seems to me like a dictatorship more so than the EU.

As for your otger points tattie you do realise that in 2014 matters such as pensions were covered. Perhaps you listened too much to Project Fear who were sounding off that Scots would lose their pension without any evidence of that and it was denied by the Yes campaign. Now spin forward to today and it is now being proposed by a Tory think tank led by Iain Duncan-Smith (the loon that states you can survive on £50 a week) that pensions should not be paid until 75. That will deprive a lot of Scots of any such payment having paid for it all of their lives. On other issues such as currency the options are out there. In the interim remain with the pound whilst processes are out in place to create own currency. And yes (despite Project Fear in 2014) that would be possible to remain with the pound and plausible as since stated by the Governor of the Bank of England. As for economy well there would be big changes in the long-term as there will be now that we are leaving the EU. I do not buy into the force fed crap we are too wee and poor to subsidise ourselves. Look at many similar sized countries around the world with less to trade with that survive just fine as an independent country - there ate lots of them. Healthcare? Look I am not painting the SNHS as some raging success here (far from it) but go and hunt down the stats and figures (even the BBC report it) that Scotland has the best performance figures over the rest of the UK. As for tavation levels I would not see them changing in the interim. Less taxes coming in but less outlay too.

I have said my piece on this and doubt I will convince you tattie-scone as you are entrenched in your views and I am entrenched in mines. One thing I can say is that Boris can kick the can down the road (as he will) but the question of Scottish independence will not go away whilst well over a million Scots support it.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 8:07 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
I have said my piece on this and doubt I will convince you tattie-scone as you are entrenched in your views and I am entrenched in mines. One thing I can say is that Boris can kick the can down the road (as he will) but the question of Scottish independence will not go away whilst well over a million Scots support it.


So better to get on with improving things rather than getting fixated on one issue I'd say.

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Post by super_realist on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 8:29 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Not sure why Scottish ‘Independence’ supporters want another vote on the issue. There’s only been two polls in the last three and a half years showing a lead for ‘independence’, indicating that the ‘independence’ movement has as much chance of winning a referendum as Labour did of winning the most recent GE. If ‘independence’ supporters were to lose a second referendum, it really would nail the issue shut for a long time.

And if there is to be another referendum, the ‘independence’ side need a much broader coalition of supporters than just the SNP.

The broad spectrum is already there. Research polls show that in 2014 the Yes vote was made up of 87% of SNP voters, 37% of Labour voters, 39% of Lib Dem voters and 5% of Tory voters.

Which still wasn't a majority. Hard cheese Craig. Keep wearing your Jimmy hat, because it's not happening any time soon.

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Post by super_realist on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 8:33 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Shall we look at the EU?

On Brexit they had a system in place where every EU member country have to agree before moving onto a next stage. One country not happy? The process is halted. Now look at how the UK dealt with it? Quite differently? Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain. Tough. They are leaving - like it or lump it and no say on it. Seems to me like a dictatorship more so than the EU.

As for your otger points tattie you do realise that in 2014 matters such as pensions were covered. Perhaps you listened too much to Project Fear who were sounding off that Scots would lose their pension without any evidence of that and it was denied by the Yes campaign. Now spin forward to today and it is now being proposed by a Tory think tank led by Iain Duncan-Smith (the loon that states you can survive on £50 a week) that pensions should not be paid until 75. That will deprive a lot of Scots of any such payment having paid for it all of their lives. On other issues such as currency the options are out there. In the interim remain with the pound whilst processes are out in place to create own currency. And yes (despite Project Fear in 2014) that would be possible to remain with the pound and plausible as since stated by the Governor of the Bank of England. As for economy well there would be big changes in the long-term as there will be now that we are leaving the EU. I do not buy into the force fed crap we are too wee and poor to subsidise ourselves. Look at many similar sized countries around the world with less to trade with that survive just fine as an independent country - there ate lots of them. Healthcare? Look I am not painting the SNHS as some raging success here (far from it) but go and hunt down the stats and figures (even the BBC report it) that Scotland has the best performance figures over the rest of the UK. As for tavation levels I would not see them changing in the interim. Less taxes coming in but less outlay too.

I have said my piece on this and doubt I will convince you tattie-scone as you are entrenched in your views and I am entrenched in mines. One thing I can say is that Boris can kick the can down the road (as he will) but the question of Scottish independence will not go away whilst well over a million Scots support it.


Craig, why is you consistently fail to answer why you think Scotland would be better off independent? How many times have I asked now? 6-7 I would say and not a peep out of you, typical Indy voter, just as myopic a the Brexit voter, seems you just want your tartan covered passport.

ALso funny how you fail to criticise the SNP for their appalling record on health and education. Also funny that you want to leave one union because of being controlled by some institution far away, but want to jump straight back into another, despite the fact that Scotland wouldn't be admitted on the basis of debt.

So come on Craig, what's so great about Independence, and no running away this time.

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Post by EWT Spoons on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 9:14 am

Scotland doesn't have debt, we can't. We have a deficit, which may be an issue if we want to join the Euro, but not the EU. Should Scotland become independent, at that point we will be responsible for a share of the UK debt (and then we will have debt), but we will also get a share of the UK assets. At this time it's not been agreed as to what either of those scenarios will look like.

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Post by super_realist on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 9:23 am

EWT Spoons wrote:Scotland doesn't have debt, we can't.  We have a deficit, which may be an issue if we want to join the Euro, but not the EU.  Should Scotland become independent, at that point we will be responsible for a share of the UK debt (and then we will have debt), but we will also get a share of the UK assets.  At this time it's not been agreed as to what either of those scenarios will look like.

It has a responsibility for the share of the national debt which takes effect upon any independence. No point in being a pedant about it. What UK assets will you get a share of? Only those in Scotland, which aren't a massive cash generator. You don't get a share of the Square Mile for instance as that wouldn't be independence would it? If you want Scotland to go it's own way, that doesn't mean taking a share in ongoing UK assets after independence.

Why would Scotland want to join the Euro anyway? Even countries with decent credit ratings (which Scotland wouldn't have due to debt/budget deficits) aren't doing well on it.

I keep asking what the best reason for Scottish independence is and why Scotland will be better off, am I writing it in invisible pixels? Why can't any indy supporter answer this?

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Post by Afro on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 9:31 am

I'm not Scottish and not a supporter of breaking up the Union, but I would say the best reasons for independence would be complete autonomy, so regardless of whether they are financially better off, they can make those decisions in the interests of Scotland alone, rather than have Westminster make decisions which may benefit the Union or England, but are detrimental to Scotland.

And on that, also the choice to rejoin the EU, which they see as beneficial.
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Post by Pr4wn on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 9:34 am

Afro wrote:I'm not Scottish and not a supporter of breaking up the Union, but I would say the best reasons for independence would be complete autonomy, so regardless of whether they are financially better off, they can make those decisions in the interests of Scotland alone, rather than have Westminster make decisions which may benefit the Union or England, but are detrimental to Scotland.

And on that, also the choice to rejoin the EU, which they see as beneficial.

Startling similarities with Brexit, eh? Save the final line, of course.

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Post by Afro on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 9:41 am

100%.

Devolving yourself from something can only ever be about self interest first.

I can’t imagine ever seeing campaign for Scottish independence because England would be better off Laugh
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Post by super_realist on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 9:43 am

Afro wrote:I'm not Scottish and not a supporter of breaking up the Union, but I would say the best reasons for independence would be complete autonomy, so regardless of whether they are financially better off, they can make those decisions in the interests of Scotland alone, rather than have Westminster make decisions which may benefit the Union or England, but are detrimental to Scotland.

And on that, also the choice to rejoin the EU, which they see as beneficial.

It's not complete autonomy though is it, because the SNP wants to immediately be in the EU, which is not 100% autonomy. Also, bit like Brexit, the SNP can't answer what they'd like to be in charge of now that they can't already do. They have tax raising ability, they have control over NHS and Education, and they still can't make it better.

Anyway, I asked why Scotland would be better off independent, and I've still not heard a decent argument for that. Autonomy doesn't make you better off, it just appeases the anti English morons who are the backbone of the SNP support.

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Post by Afro on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 9:49 am

super_realist wrote:
Afro wrote:I'm not Scottish and not a supporter of breaking up the Union, but I would say the best reasons for independence would be complete autonomy, so regardless of whether they are financially better off, they can make those decisions in the interests of Scotland alone, rather than have Westminster make decisions which may benefit the Union or England, but are detrimental to Scotland.

And on that, also the choice to rejoin the EU, which they see as beneficial.

It's not complete autonomy though is it, because the SNP wants to immediately be in the EU, which is not 100% autonomy. Also, bit like Brexit, the SNP can't answer what they'd like to be in charge of now that they can't already do. They have tax raising ability, they have control over NHS and Education, and they still can't make it better.

Anyway, I asked why Scotland would be better off independent, and I've still not heard a decent argument for that. Autonomy doesn't make you better off, it just appeases the anti English morons who are the backbone of the SNP support.

Depends on your definition of better off. Its not just about the economy and finances. Being able to make your own decisions is better off than someone making them for you.

So if they suddenly decided that they wanted to plough all their money into Iron-Bru production, they could and wouldn't have someone in London saying they can't
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Post by super_realist on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 9:54 am

Why would you vote for something to be poorer just as long as you have control of things yourself? Who on earth would want that?

Would you rather be in the current job you are in, or working for yourself for a pittance? Who would ever want that?

Again, what is it that Scotland wants to do, but isn't allowed to because of London? Indy supporters (and I know you aren't one) simply can't answer that. Even if Scotland got away from Westminster, they still want to be dictated to by Brussels

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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 9:59 am

Afro wrote:100%.

Devolving yourself from something can only ever be about self interest first.

I can’t imagine ever seeing campaign for Scottish independence because England would be better off Laugh
Oh, I don't know. I don't necessarily mean economically, but worth it so they can STFU about anything negative in Scotland being the fault of anyone but those in Scotland.
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Post by Afro on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 10:04 am

super_realist wrote:Why would you vote for something to be poorer just as long as you have control of things yourself? Who on earth would want that?

Would you rather be in the current job you are in, or working for yourself for a pittance? Who would ever want that?

Again, what is it that Scotland wants to do, but isn't allowed to because of London? Indy supporters (and I know you aren't one) simply can't answer that. Even if Scotland got away from Westminster, they still want to be dictated to by Brussels

I've got to put my hand up and say I quit a job (that I enjoyed), for a significantly lower salary, losing a decent bonus, a final salary pension scheme I had been in for 14 years and health insurance, because the other job was better for my family. So we are poorer, but are better off in many other ways.
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Post by EWT Spoons on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 10:05 am

super_realist wrote:
EWT Spoons wrote:Scotland doesn't have debt, we can't.  We have a deficit, which may be an issue if we want to join the Euro, but not the EU.  Should Scotland become independent, at that point we will be responsible for a share of the UK debt (and then we will have debt), but we will also get a share of the UK assets.  At this time it's not been agreed as to what either of those scenarios will look like.

It has a responsibility for the share of the national debt which takes effect upon any independence. No point in being a pedant about it. What UK assets will you get a share of? Only those in Scotland, which aren't a massive cash generator. You don't get a share of the Square Mile for instance as that wouldn't be independence would it? If you want Scotland to go it's own way, that doesn't mean taking a share in ongoing UK assets after independence.

Why would Scotland want to join the Euro anyway? Even countries with decent credit ratings (which Scotland wouldn't have due to debt/budget deficits) aren't doing well on it.

I keep asking what the best reason for Scottish independence is and why Scotland will be better off, am I writing it in invisible pixels? Why can't any indy supporter answer this?

Sorry but there is a very real point to be pedentic about it, as you are talking specifically about deficit not debt. As of today, we do not know what Scotland's share of any debt would be. There are estimates but it's based on assumptions, primarily around population size, but there are other methods for calculating this debt. Debt would have an impact on our ability to join the Euro (not the EU), deficit means nothing to either of them. You therefore cannot say debt would prevent us from joining the EU as we don't accurately know what level of debt we would be responsible for, and more importantly the EU don't care, unless we want to use the Euro. Which as you point out, we probably don't, especially since the Scottish Government have never really seemingly been in favour of it.

I didn't say Scotland would get a share of ongoing assets, nor would it take a share of any ongoing debt. In terms of assets, most things paid for by the UK government from taxes could be classed as an asset (MOD for one) and something an independent Scotland would be entitled to a share of. Unless we say that anything paid for by the UK gov belongs soley to the rUK at which point that would effectively also write off any debt Scotland would be eligble for as well. I'm not saying this is the approach either side want or should go for, I'm just pointing out that there are pros (assets) and cons (debts).

I've not been asked, as this is the first time I have commented on this thread, I would imagine people's reasons for voting for/against independence could be specific to them, but for me having control over our country would be nice. Someone mentioned earlier about Glasgow's appauling health record, a lot of this is due to drugs, however that's not a devolved matter, meaning the Scottish Gov can only do so much. The Scottish Gov has for the last decade+ also had to offset the policies of the tory government, bedroom tax, universal credit etc, this is not something that would be needed if Scotland had control of these matters.

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Post by super_realist on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 10:06 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
Afro wrote:100%.

Devolving yourself from something can only ever be about self interest first.

I can’t imagine ever seeing campaign for Scottish independence because England would be better off Laugh
Oh, I don't know. I don't necessarily mean economically, but worth it so they can STFU about anything negative in Scotland being the fault of anyone but those in Scotland.

I am so sick of that attitude Navy. Nothing is ever the responsibility of the SNP in Scotland despite them having control of education, health and tax. I've never hid that I can't stand Scottishness, but the negative attitude really does the country no favours at all.

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