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England's Winter

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 05 Jan 2020, 2:14 pm

First topic message reminder :

As per LT's original post:
New Zealand

T20 Internationals

Friday November 1st - Christchurch
Sunday November 3rd - Wellington
Tuesday November 5th - Nelson
Friday November 8th - Napier
Sunday November 10th - Auckland

Squad
Eoin Morgan (Middlesex) captain
Jonny Bairstow (Yorkshire)
Tom Banton (Somerset)
Sam Billings (Kent)
Pat Brown (Worcestershire)
Sam Curran (Surrey)
Tom Curran (Surrey)
Joe Denly (Kent)
Lewis Gregory (Somerset)
Chris Jordan (Sussex)
Saqib Mahmood (Lancashire)
Dawid Malan (Middlesex)
Matt Parkinson (Lancashire)
Adil Rashid (Yorkshire)
James Vince (Hampshire)


Tests

Wednesday November 20th - Tauranga
Thursday November 28th - Hamilton

Squad
Joe Root (Yorkshire) captain
Jofra Archer (Sussex)
Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire)
Rory Burns (Surrey)
Jos Buttler (Lancashire)
Zak Crawley (Kent)
Sam Curran (Surrey)
Joe Denly (Kent)
Jack Leach (Somerset)
Saqib Mahmood (Lancashire)
Matthew Parkinson (Lancashire)
Ollie Pope (Surrey)
Dominic Sibley (Warwickshire)
Ben Stokes (Durham)
Chris Woakes (Warwickshire)



South Africa

Tests

Thursday 26th December - Centurion
Friday January 3rd - Cape Town
Thursday January 16th - Port Elizabeth
Friday January 24th - Johannesburg

Squad
Ill


ODI
Tuesday 4th February - Cape Town
Friday 7th February - Durban
Sunday 9th February - Johannesburg

Squad
Ill

T20 Internationals

Wednesday 12th February - East London
Friday 14th February - Durban
Sunday 16th February - Centurion


Sri Lanka

March 7th - Warm up 1, Katunayake (3 day)
March 12th - Warm up 2, Colombo (3 day)
March 19th - 1st Test, Galle
March 27th - 2nd Test, Colombo

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 12:13 pm

In a spot of bother here
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Post by Duty281 on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 12:14 pm

World Cup hangover? Was a brilliant bit of fielding to get rid of Root, to be fair.

England’s deep batting order getting the test. Banton coming in - the most talented English batter since Kevin Pietersen.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 12:19 pm

Most talented batsman whos already nearly edged on on to his stumps and not scored off his first 6 balls. Its not really an ideal scenario for a big hitter T20 specialist to come in, but a good opportunity for him to live up to some of the hype.


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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 12:24 pm

It's a miracle Bantons still in ..3 play and misses in a row

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 12:27 pm

Duty281 wrote:World Cup hangover? Was a brilliant bit of fielding to get rid of Root, to be fair.

England’s deep batting order getting the test. Banton coming in - the most talented English batter since Kevin Pietersen.

Since when was smashing the ball about in T20 real talent?

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 12:36 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
Duty281 wrote:World Cup hangover? Was a brilliant bit of fielding to get rid of Root, to be fair.

England’s deep batting order getting the test. Banton coming in - the most talented English batter since Kevin Pietersen.

Since when was smashing the ball about in T20 real talent?

If Ashleigh and Pudsey can be the most talented thing in Britain then Banton being a short ball slogger counts. Im not sure its entirely a clear cut case that KP is even the most talented batsman since himself mind given the resources England have. Bantons struggled early but looks to be settling now after riding through the pressure. Touch of luck maybe what he needs. Denly , Root, Morgan, Bairstow all struggled on this pitch...so theres no shame hes looked out of sorts

I'm somewhere between the two stools with him. The level of hype is ridiculous, hes yet to be tested at the very highest levels and he wasnt the best English batsman at the BBL (although his SR was ridiculous).He needs to widen his game, and this is an excellent learning time.

Oh hes out? Reviewed

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 12:38 pm

Unfortunate dismissal. England need to get to 250.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 12:40 pm

This long batting line up is a bit non existent when Stokes and Buttler aren't playing.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 12:40 pm

Duty281 wrote:Unfortunate dismissal. England need to get to 250.

He completely missed the ball, its hardly unfortunate ..he misjudged and played a risky shot. And there were many occasions he could've got out prior to that even with defensive hits. Your Banton love affair is getting embarrassing.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 12:41 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:This long batting line up is a bit non existent when Stokes and Buttler aren't playing.

And when Denly is. This isnt even the best XI they could pick without those two. They really arent doing very well as a team though

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 12:45 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Unfortunate dismissal. England need to get to 250.

He completely missed the ball, its hardly unfortunate ..he misjudged and played a risky shot. And there were many occasions he could've got out prior to that even with defensive hits. Your Banton love affair is getting embarrassing.

Well excuse me for admiring some proper talent!

And yeah he was unfortunate with over 50% of the ball hitting him outside the line. Could have easily gone the other way.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 12:46 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Unfortunate dismissal. England need to get to 250.

He completely missed the ball, its hardly unfortunate ..he misjudged and played a risky shot. And there were many occasions he could've got out prior to that even with defensive hits. Your Banton love affair is getting embarrassing.

Well excuse me for admiring some proper talent!

And yeah he was unfortunate with over 50% of the ball hitting him outside the line. Could have easily gone the other way.

Well no, if it had gone the other way the bowling team would have been unlucky that doesn't mean the batsmen is unlucky however.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 12:59 pm

Every time a batsman plays and misses unless the ball had done something unusual its the bowler who's been unlucky. Banton rode his luck a lot and was very nervy not fully committing to his strokes. Its understandable, and hes hardly alone in this innings. But just admit he isn't the second coming of the player KP believes he is.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 1:59 pm

I'm advocate for dropping Denly from the test team but you can't fail to admire his fighting qualities, got England out of a massive hole here and leading the team to a respectable total backed up by Woakes. I'd be slightly confused were I Sir Chris finding myself below a far inferior batsmen.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 2:04 pm

Yeah but lets face it hes ridden his luck. England do seem to really struggle batting on these slow pitches but these two have at least given something to bowl at. Now they are swinging it does show its not impossible to score boundaries, as did Roy earlier so that flurry of wickets in the middle ultimately will likely cost them.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 2:11 pm

Denlys highest score in white ball for England.

Woakes out trying to hit over, done himself proud but England really need a few more from the tail.

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 3:22 pm

259 for the Saffers to win. Should be chased down, but they do have a lengthy tail if England can exploit it.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 4:28 pm

This bowling attack has nothing going for it at all, aside from Woakes I can't see any of them troubling the best XI.

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 5:07 pm

England badly missing Plunkett and Rashid for the ‘middle overs’ phase, though they were always at least 40 short with the bat.

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Post by JDizzle on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 6:57 pm

Plunkett being 34 and Rashid having his gammy shoulder - it is important England look at replacements though. Although I would be surprised if it was TCurran or Jordan.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 7:12 pm

Yeah have to view all this for the medium term T20 rather than short term series, England have been explicit about that. Missing Archer, Wood and Mo too (as noted England did miss a trick picking one spinner, even SA managed to have two). Not sure if Jordan will ever quite be a genuine top class ODI bowler but he still has a specialist role in the T20 squad. T Curran has had much better days for England recently, the slow pitch did him no favours.
Replacing Rashid is a bigger priority. That hes only bowled 5 overs on the tour so far suggests England are trying to get over him, and the only option is Parkinson who did take a lot of wickets in the warm ups.
The thing that concerns me with this game is that Woakes aside the only player to come out in credit was Denly, who really would be at best a bit part player in anyones first choice T20 squad. The "future" all struggled a bit.
Do feel a little for Banton that it was about the worst situation for a player whos game is all about SR to come in. I wonder if in the Bayliss era the leadership wouldve given him a firm mandate to not care about the situation and just chuck the bat at it. At the point he came in the only way England were going to get to a big total was if someone went bananas and got lucky. He didnt look at all at ease batting defensively and is clearly feeling the pressure of "needing a score" in an England shirt, he said so himself in pre match interviews. Hes a player who could lift Englands batting even higher in the shortest formats, but needs the level of arrogant confidence that Bayliss managed to give the ODI team. As fans we also need to recognise that he isnt a heaven sent being, and Vaughns assertion that hes ready to challenge for a test place was straight up absurd ( I assume hes representing Banton and gets a percentage)

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Post by king_carlos on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 8:06 pm

I think Tom Curran could fill Plunketts role well long term. It was a poor performance from him today though. As Mike Holding says, "if you can bowl a yorker well at the end of an innings then you can bowl it well in the middle of an innings". Tom seems to like batsman coming at him hence his good death bowling. He didn't adapt well to the slow pitch.

I've never understood Jordan being picked in ODIs. His T20i performances have been solid with good death bowling but he's just never offered enough over 50 overs at international level.

Prior to his season ending injury in the summer Tymal Mills may have provided an interesting curve ball for the T20 world cup squad. The seamers don't have any bolters presenting themselves currently though. Particularly with Pat Brown also injured.

I could certainly see Mark Wood being fast tracked into the squad if fit at the time.

My main hope for this series is that Parkinson can establish himself.

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Post by alfie on Tue 04 Feb 2020, 11:28 pm

Glad to see folk on here aren't going silly over a bad hair day for the (somewhat experimental version of) ODI side ...

Watched a good deal of the batting. Seems the slow pitch found England out a bit - not for the first time I think ; and they were probably a little too slow to reset their planned target from the usual 350 plus down to a more realistic 280 (which might well have been enough). That said it was encouraging to see that the deep batting did pay off in that Denly and Woakes still got them to a semi-respectable total with intelligent batting after the failure of most of the top order.
Didn't see the bowling so cannot comment on it though I am getting the impression it was a bit un-threatening ? A pity they didn't grab another early wicket as SA went in with a long tail and had either de Kock or Bavuma gone cheaply it might have been an interesting contest : at least they might have been able to exert a bit of pressure on the chasing team.
We all know England prefer to chase. And in truth when they bat first this sort of underachievement isn't uncommon for them even when they pick their best team , so I am not all that bothered by this result. I suppose it might complicate their plans for player rotation and trying out new talent ; but since I think they see these games as more trial than "must win" it probably won't have a huge effect.
Anyway I will not be surprised if they bounce back next match much as they did in the Tests.

In the meantime all the nutters on BBC hys can have their fun Smile

Happy for Denly , by the way.

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 7:07 am

Yeah no panic about England ...but I'd rather be an India fan right now. They are absolutely handing it to New Zealand in the white ball stuff on their current tour, peaking at the wrong time maybe but they look to have worked out how to score really big totals now and loved on from Dhoni.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 7:50 am

Gooseberry wrote:Yeah no panic about England ...but I'd rather be an India fan right now. They are absolutely handing it to New Zealand in the white ball stuff on their current tour, peaking at the wrong time maybe but they look to have worked out how to score really big totals now and loved on from Dhoni.

It is altogether meaningless at the current time.

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 9:50 am

And also New Zealand are on their way to hammering India in the first ODI.

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 05 Feb 2020, 9:54 am

Duty281 wrote:And also New Zealand are on their way to hammering India in the first ODI.

Crikey they turned that one around a lit, they looked like they were on a course to loose heavily earlier.

Well that will shut Jeremy Coney up

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 06 Feb 2020, 10:30 am

ECB announce Jofra Archer will miss the Sri Lanka tour and IPL with a stress fracture in his right elbow, putting him out at least 3 months.

Probably not too out of context to point out this stat...

"@SamMorshead_
Most overs by England bowlers (all formats) in 2019

Jofra Archer - 400.5
Stuart Broad - 367.4
Ben Stokes - 336.2
Chris Woakes - 299.4
Moeen Ali - 231.2
Sam Curran - 201.5
Adil Rashid - 201.5"

Considering he didn't debut until the summer - that's mad.
When he returns they really do need to manage his workload a heck of a lot better
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Post by Soul Requiem on Thu 06 Feb 2020, 11:09 am

That is ridiculous and was mentioned a lot during the ashes that he was multiple long spells in the hope he'd produce something, if you've got a bowler who can reach speeds of 95mph you need to manage him far better than that.

On average he's bowled 21 overs across 13 innings, his debut test sums it up; he bowled 44 out of 142 overs in that match alone Shocked

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 06 Feb 2020, 11:31 am

Cummins bowled 200 more overs in international cricket this year. Also worth noting that Archer hasn’t bowled much on top of that outside internationals (think it’s only 90 overs more), whilst Broad’s overall bowling this year puts him up to 582.4.

There’s definitely worth in delving into those stats a bit. Boult and Rabada both bowled more.

The Cummins figure is insane, even before considering his problems in the past.

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 06 Feb 2020, 11:44 am

Hows cummins side?

Really interesting with Aus that they went from being notorious fro ruining fast bowlers health a few years back to having players who could bowl through entire ashes series unhindered. Whatever they are doing it must be a bit more than just sanding them down at the end of the day.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 06 Feb 2020, 11:51 am

Also thought someone on that thread made an interesting point about skill.

Suggested the problem with Jof is he’s all or nothing. If he’s not top pace, he’s drastically less effective, so cannot protect himself and will be prone to more injury.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 06 Feb 2020, 11:52 am

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Cummins bowled 200 more overs in international cricket this year. Also worth noting that Archer hasn’t bowled much on top of that outside internationals (think it’s only 90 overs more), whilst Broad’s overall bowling this year puts him up to 582.4.

There’s definitely worth in delving into those stats a bit. Boult and Rabada both bowled more.

The Cummins figure is insane, even before considering his problems in the past.

All those guys have played, and been used to the international schedule for at least half a decade. I'd imagine if you delve into their stats from their first half year/year of international cricket, they didn't nearly reach Archer's level.
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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 06 Feb 2020, 11:55 am

How many minutes of soccer warm ups have the others played?

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 06 Feb 2020, 11:57 am

Not sure what that suggests though? Physically incapable because he’s a novice?

Correlation is not always causality. The hyper extension in his elbow looks about as likely a problem.

Or it could be as simple as misdiagnosing an injury and then exacerbating it after.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Thu 06 Feb 2020, 11:58 am

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Cummins bowled 200 more overs in international cricket this year. Also worth noting that Archer hasn’t bowled much on top of that outside internationals (think it’s only 90 overs more), whilst Broad’s overall bowling this year puts him up to 582.4.

There’s definitely worth in delving into those stats a bit. Boult and Rabada both bowled more.

The Cummins figure is insane, even before considering his problems in the past.

That is across ten extra test innings, 2 more ODI's and 6 more T20s, the Cummins number is also insane but some context is needed a seasoned international player and a newcomer.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Thu 06 Feb 2020, 11:59 am

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Also thought someone on that thread made an interesting point about skill.

Suggested the problem with Jof is he’s all or nothing. If he’s not top pace, he’s drastically less effective, so cannot protect himself and will be prone to more injury.

Aside from his best test figures of 6-45 where he barely touched 88mph.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 06 Feb 2020, 12:02 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Cummins bowled 200 more overs in international cricket this year. Also worth noting that Archer hasn’t bowled much on top of that outside internationals (think it’s only 90 overs more), whilst Broad’s overall bowling this year puts him up to 582.4.

There’s definitely worth in delving into those stats a bit. Boult and Rabada both bowled more.

The Cummins figure is insane, even before considering his problems in the past.

That is across ten extra test innings, 2 more ODI's and 6 more T20s, the Cummins number is also insane but some context is needed a seasoned international player and a newcomer.

Yes, but on their own they’re misleading. I don’t think it lessens the point, either. He’s played and prepared for more games, arguably had less rest etc etc.

I’m still yet to see a link between linking them for injury and then talk of experience

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 06 Feb 2020, 12:04 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Also thought someone on that thread made an interesting point about skill.

Suggested the problem with Jof is he’s all or nothing. If he’s not top pace, he’s drastically less effective, so cannot protect himself and will be prone to more injury.

Aside from his best test figures of 6-45 where he barely touched 88mph.

Fair call, I didn’t really have a strong opinion either way. I would guess it’s more likely to be a problem for Jof, I do think he’s one that probably is affected more by each delivery physically than others but I’m not sure anyone is gonna find proof to support or dispel that.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Thu 06 Feb 2020, 12:14 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Cummins bowled 200 more overs in international cricket this year. Also worth noting that Archer hasn’t bowled much on top of that outside internationals (think it’s only 90 overs more), whilst Broad’s overall bowling this year puts him up to 582.4.

There’s definitely worth in delving into those stats a bit. Boult and Rabada both bowled more.

The Cummins figure is insane, even before considering his problems in the past.

That is across ten extra test innings, 2 more ODI's and 6 more T20s, the Cummins number is also insane but some context is needed a seasoned international player and a newcomer.

Yes, but on their own they’re misleading. I don’t think it lessens the point, either. He’s played and prepared for more games, arguably had less rest etc etc.

I’m still yet to see a link between linking them for injury and then talk of experience

I'd say given Cummins' history it's been more luck than judgement that he's not broken down recently, think he and Archer and been poorly managed by their captains, over bowling them when they needed something to happen.

The elbow injury might not be a direct result of being overbowled but he has been badly mismanaged.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Thu 06 Feb 2020, 12:16 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Also thought someone on that thread made an interesting point about skill.

Suggested the problem with Jof is he’s all or nothing. If he’s not top pace, he’s drastically less effective, so cannot protect himself and will be prone to more injury.

Aside from his best test figures of 6-45 where he barely touched 88mph.

Fair call, I didn’t really have a strong opinion either way. I would guess it’s more likely to be a problem for Jof, I do think he’s one that probably is affected more by each delivery physically than others but I’m not sure anyone is gonna find proof to support or dispel that.

The perception around Archer is all wrong for me, he's a fast medium bowler who can bowl fast when it all clicks unlike Mark Wood who is an out and out paceman. The lengths he's been asked to bowl don't suit him and the fields set don't either, how many wickets can you remember him taking by bouncing someone?

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Post by Pal Joey on Thu 06 Feb 2020, 12:17 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Also thought someone on that thread made an interesting point about skill.

Suggested the problem with Jof is he’s all or nothing. If he’s not top pace, he’s drastically less effective, so cannot protect himself and will be prone to more injury.

Aside from his best test figures of 6-45 where he barely touched 88mph.

Fair call, I didn’t really have a strong opinion either way. I would guess it’s more likely to be a problem for Jof, I do think he’s one that probably is affected more by each delivery physically than others but I’m not sure anyone is gonna find proof to support or dispel that.

I like your golden chains of thought, Flipper.
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 06 Feb 2020, 12:26 pm

I agree with nearly all those points, SR. I’m amazed Australia have bowled him so much and amazed he’s been relatively scratch-free.

Archer has clearly been mismanaged on the pitch and off it. The elbow injury becoming such an issue now after the time in South Africa trying to get him ready for a test seems an indication of a big mistake. And I don’t think the short stuff is a good use of him nor good for his body.

Perception, well that’s tougher. It might well just be that he is needed to be someone who can be a blinding pace bowler to win the tests we don’t usually win.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 06 Feb 2020, 12:28 pm

Any compliment from such an esteemed man is a great one for me, Peej

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Post by Soul Requiem on Thu 06 Feb 2020, 12:35 pm

Have to add that Cummins is an astonishingly good player and even as an England fan first and foremost love watching him bowl.

The balance of the attack without Anderson and a wicket taking spinner isn't quite right at the moment, Broad goes about doing Broad things whilst the others can have terrible problems with the radar at times you then have to try and use Archer as a point of difference. We can only hope that Mark Wood is getting over his injury woes and he can be that blinding pace bowler, when on song he looks a nightmare to face. The team is heading in the right direction but needs some minor tweaks. Question marks surrounding Stokes ability to bowl both innings of a match don't help, barely used in the first innings from memory then comes to the fore in the second.

Stokes
Bess or Leach???
Archer
Wood
Broad

No the greatest tail in the world but in theory all of them are capable of a swift 20 or 30 here and there.

You can then use Archer as you need to depending on the pitch

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 06 Feb 2020, 12:52 pm

Is it three spinners again in Sri Lanka? Which three? Is Leach going to be healthy? Is Rashid an option again? Bess and/or Parkinson good enough? Mo ready?

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 06 Feb 2020, 1:29 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Cummins bowled 200 more overs in international cricket this year. Also worth noting that Archer hasn’t bowled much on top of that outside internationals (think it’s only 90 overs more), whilst Broad’s overall bowling this year puts him up to 582.4.

There’s definitely worth in delving into those stats a bit. Boult and Rabada both bowled more.

The Cummins figure is insane, even before considering his problems in the past.

That is across ten extra test innings, 2 more ODI's and 6 more T20s, the Cummins number is also insane but some context is needed a seasoned international player and a newcomer.

Yes, but on their own they’re misleading. I don’t think it lessens the point, either. He’s played and prepared for more games, arguably had less rest etc etc.

I’m still yet to see a link between linking them for injury and then talk of experience

I'd say given Cummins' history it's been more luck than judgement that he's not broken down recently, think he and Archer and been poorly managed by their captains, over bowling them when they needed something to happen.

The elbow injury might not be a direct result of being overbowled but he has been badly mismanaged.

Theres undoutably some luck with Cummins but CA did a deep delve review of how they coach monitor and use fast bowlers after their injury crisis. The change in injury rates for tests stars since then has been enormous, even siddle gets through games now. They are doing something right.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 12:36 pm

England unchanged and bowling first. 45 overs per side after the earlier rain. More rain forecast.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 12:47 pm

Unchanged? Really?
Nothing like letting Mo play himself back into confidence Rolling Eyes
As well as he did last time this also indicates they have some kind of delided belief that Denly is central to future plans.
About as depressing as the weather.

Suggestions it's another slow surface too

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 12:51 pm

You can't exactly drop the top scorer from the last match and Denly is a fine limited overs player, the balance of the team without Stokes and Moeen looks all wrong though, a seam attack that as no variation aside from one being left handed.

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