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England's Winter

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 05 Jan 2020, 2:14 pm

First topic message reminder :

As per LT's original post:
New Zealand

T20 Internationals

Friday November 1st - Christchurch
Sunday November 3rd - Wellington
Tuesday November 5th - Nelson
Friday November 8th - Napier
Sunday November 10th - Auckland

Squad
Eoin Morgan (Middlesex) captain
Jonny Bairstow (Yorkshire)
Tom Banton (Somerset)
Sam Billings (Kent)
Pat Brown (Worcestershire)
Sam Curran (Surrey)
Tom Curran (Surrey)
Joe Denly (Kent)
Lewis Gregory (Somerset)
Chris Jordan (Sussex)
Saqib Mahmood (Lancashire)
Dawid Malan (Middlesex)
Matt Parkinson (Lancashire)
Adil Rashid (Yorkshire)
James Vince (Hampshire)


Tests

Wednesday November 20th - Tauranga
Thursday November 28th - Hamilton

Squad
Joe Root (Yorkshire) captain
Jofra Archer (Sussex)
Stuart Broad (Nottinghamshire)
Rory Burns (Surrey)
Jos Buttler (Lancashire)
Zak Crawley (Kent)
Sam Curran (Surrey)
Joe Denly (Kent)
Jack Leach (Somerset)
Saqib Mahmood (Lancashire)
Matthew Parkinson (Lancashire)
Ollie Pope (Surrey)
Dominic Sibley (Warwickshire)
Ben Stokes (Durham)
Chris Woakes (Warwickshire)



South Africa

Tests

Thursday 26th December - Centurion
Friday January 3rd - Cape Town
Thursday January 16th - Port Elizabeth
Friday January 24th - Johannesburg

Squad
Ill


ODI
Tuesday 4th February - Cape Town
Friday 7th February - Durban
Sunday 9th February - Johannesburg

Squad
Ill

T20 Internationals

Wednesday 12th February - East London
Friday 14th February - Durban
Sunday 16th February - Centurion


Sri Lanka

March 7th - Warm up 1, Katunayake (3 day)
March 12th - Warm up 2, Colombo (3 day)
March 19th - 1st Test, Galle
March 27th - 2nd Test, Colombo

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 11 Feb 2020, 1:48 pm

Duty281 wrote:Surprised Broad’s in the squad, thought he might get a rest. Otherwise it’s as expected. If Moeen can’t get into the test squad for a Sri Lanka tour, it casts grave doubts on his chances of ever getting back into the side.

My guess is at the moment they are prioritising T20 cricket for him rather than risk overloading and burning him out again. He did make himself available again but I do agree with not picking him for tests until hes had a chance to play some low pressure red ball in the CC. I dont think this writes him off forever, although if Bess and Leach do well it will be increasingly hard for him to make is way back.

The big news should perhaps be that Leach is fit to travel. Thats great for everyone.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 11 Feb 2020, 2:15 pm

Yep that is great news Goose - with a tour of India next winter, more experience in the sub continent for Leach is crucial
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 11 Feb 2020, 2:19 pm

Weird to see all the seam options. Broad clearly wasn’t fussed about going, I’d rest him. Don’t moan about players rotating and then take an older player who will definitely get sore on those decks.

I’d have taken a younger alternative to Wood if the plan is rotation. Not sure rotation in a two-test series makes great sense, but you need a backup to Wood.

I’d go with it being two of three from Denly, Jennings and Crawley.

Must have been a temptation to rest Buttler too, he feels like he’s been playing a lot and under pressure continuously. There’s a weight on him in every game in every format, after all.

That’s an ideal world though, and it does have to be a balance of resting players and taking this seriously.

Sibley
Jennings
Denly
Root
Stokes
Pope
Foakes
Curran
Bess
Wood
Leach

Reasonably solid batting in that tail

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 11 Feb 2020, 2:26 pm

I'd probably swap Denly for Crawley and bring Parkinson in for Curran, there's no need for three pacemen over there let alone one who won't get anything out of the surface at all. Stokes and Wood can both bang it when needed.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 11 Feb 2020, 2:35 pm

If Bairstow had been making runs in red ball then leaving Buttler out (straight up dropping him) wouldve been a lot easier. As it is Foakes is getting a tour spot without any cricket after a run of bad form, and they had a choice between two other keepers who really dont deserve a spot either.
Taking two makes some sense, but really none of the three have actually earned a spot.

I think most of us are happy with Foakes being there all the same, hes the best gloveman of the three and succeeded in the previous tour.

I'm kinda glad they didnt go with the rumored Bairstow at 3, although he did get his last century for England batting 3 in Sri Lanka and averages 38 there despite being seen as a failure in many peoples minds.

Taking Buttler and picking Foakes to start is possibly the worst of all worlds. He gets no rest, and they cant frame it as him being rested. As a 3 format player they have to leave him out of some series, it seemed like the ideal time to do it to me. Bairstow has been tagging along carrying drinks a lot more recently, but then maybe taking him and not playing him would just drive him bananas.

All in theres just a lot of wrong answers for England there. Just taking Foakes and hoping he doesn't get inured might've been the best.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 11 Feb 2020, 2:37 pm

Foakes has earned his spot by being the best wicketkeeper available, that is more important than any perceived weakness in batting in Asia.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 11 Feb 2020, 2:51 pm

Yeah but hes always been the best keeper. He hasnt played cricket since September and had a poor county season. The best scenario is that players earn a call up by banging the door down, not through others being so poor you have to look elsewhere.

It must feel a bit ironic to him after all the times hes been left out to get a place without even playing.

As I said its not that I dont think he shouldnt be the keeper for this series, I'm just saying its not an ideal situation for England.

Id look at the seamer selections (why Woakes and Curran and Broad when you at most have one in the side) as a similar situation, its not ideal. The top order...only Sibley is really a solid starter. The spinners, Parkinson seems to be going because they want 3 and cant risk Rashids shoulder. Hes very inexperienced and hasnt shown hes test ready yet IMO (kinda hard in 20 first class games), the spin trio are very inexperienced unlike last tour.

I dont feel as confident in this squad as I did the last one. Although at least they do have a proper quick this time, I just hope that he and Stokes can be bowled a minimal amount. I agree with you that sticking Curran or Waokes in as a rotation bowler is as pointless as it was in the previous tour...might as well have an extra proper batsman and use Denly/Jennings if they dont trust Parkinson to start.

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Post by alfie on Wed 12 Feb 2020, 2:00 am

Ah now all you Foakes fans ...don't get your hopes up ! He is probably going to carry the drinks judging by the Ed Smith "continuity" waffle and the fact that Buttler remains with the squad despite horrible recent form.
The only other way they can keep Buttler in the side is to move Pope immediately up to three (or up to five and budge Stokes and Root up) - which doesn't seem the best use of resources. Also doesn't make a lot of sense given they have already got Sibley Crawley Denly and now Jennings to cover the top three spots...

I may be wrong. But I reckon one of those options is more likely than the (in my view , more sensible) teams suggested by Olly and Dolph.

(Incidentally , I am aware that Jos did rather well in Sri Lanka last time - I'd suggest it was arguably his best contribution in Tests : so taking him as a pure batsman isn't totally nuts. But it just doesn't seem logical to mess around with a batting order that seems to be working at present just to accommodate an out of form batsman - and moving Pope prematurely surely is an unnecessary risk ?)

We shall see.

As to the bowling they do seem to have a lot of candidates for just two games. Depends on the pitches , I guess. But with Stokes to assist two seamers (any two , I think , though more likely Woakes or Curran , Wood or Broad) they can pick two spinners ; or if they see a real bunsen , three and forget one of the quicks...
Not surprised no Moeen. Can't pick him off no proper cricket - oh actually I suppose they could : Smith has form for these punts Smile

Hope Leach stays healthy ! With his luck I'm glad they aren't going any closer to China...

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 12 Feb 2020, 3:05 pm

Interested to see England’s batting order for this series - big question is where to bat Buttler, he’s been arguably the best t20 opener in the world the past year or two...but he is also an exceptional finisher too. Not a bad problem to have, but I think I’d err towards him opening. If he faces 50 balls in a t20, his team is going to put up a monster score
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 12 Feb 2020, 3:07 pm

The best XI is probably; Buttler, Roy, Bairstow, Morgan, Stokes, ???, Moeen, Rashid, T Curran, Archer, Wood

??? could be anyone - Malan, Banton, Denly, Livingstone...probably someone out of position though. I don’t think Root makes the XI
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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed 12 Feb 2020, 3:09 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:The best XI is probably; Buttler, Roy, Bairstow, Morgan, Stokes, ???, Moeen, Rashid, T Curran, Archer, Wood

??? could be anyone - Malan, Banton, Denly, Livingstone...probably someone out of position though. I don’t think Root makes the XI

I'd be dropping Stokes, Wood and Archer out of it completely myself. Far too important in the other forms to waste on a glorified slogathon.

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Post by James100 on Wed 12 Feb 2020, 3:20 pm

The Buttler question's a tough one but I think I'd err toward him opening too.

If I'm picking a World Cup squad six months out, I'd go something like

Buttler
Hales
Bairstow
Stokes
Moeen
Morgan
Willey
T Curran
Jordan/Wood
Rashid
Archer

Roy
S Curran
Jordan/Wood
Parkinson

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 12 Feb 2020, 3:42 pm

Buttler should definitely be an opener for my money as well. Not only do you have the potential of him facing 40 odd balls and completely destroying the opposition, but it also means he’s in during the PowerPlay overs.

England have such a richness of batting power in the T20 department that they should be targeting winning the 2020 T20 World Cup (and the oddly placed 2021 T20 World Cup).


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Post by king_carlos on Wed 12 Feb 2020, 5:05 pm

I like Buttler opening but with Bairstow and Roy having a strong partnership I can see why they keep him further down. He's one of the best T20 players anywhere in the order and does offer somewhat of a get out of jail free card in tight or lower scoring games.

It feels somewhat like Banton is being lined up for Hales old role as 3rd opening option or powerful number 3. I'm not sure Hales will get back in Banton gets runs.

Dilly and Mo are bowling exceptionally once again in this game.

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 12 Feb 2020, 5:14 pm

Tom Curran’s bowling is reminiscent of Dernbach in his prime, though with fewer tattoos.

Thankfully Rashid has been exceptional.

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Post by king_carlos on Wed 12 Feb 2020, 5:21 pm

When Tom overbowls his variations I always think he looks poor. When he concentrates on hitting his yorkers and using his surprisingly sharp bouncer cleverly he looks much better.

He's clearly rated by the Sixers and he's been picked up by the Royals in the IPL auction (admittedly at his base price) so it's not just the England coaches who rate him.

I certainly hold him in higher regard than Jordan these days.

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 12 Feb 2020, 5:38 pm

177/8 - England clawed it back after exposing the weaknesses in South Africa’s batting depth. The chase is right in the fun zone. Chance for England’s power hitters to flex.

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Post by king_carlos on Wed 12 Feb 2020, 6:42 pm

83 needed from 10 overs with Roy flying. This is where Morgan is a perfect partner to come in alongside the big hitters.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 12 Feb 2020, 7:09 pm

Hoping that’s the last we see of Denly in a T20 side - he really shouldn’t be in with the batting talent england have in this format
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Post by king_carlos on Wed 12 Feb 2020, 7:20 pm

England trying their best to mess this up.

I'd say this is a perfect example of when Buttler is so much more dangerous at 6 than our other batsman.

A chance for Moeen to show some batting form though.

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Post by king_carlos on Wed 12 Feb 2020, 7:26 pm

Morgan out but that 4 4 6 from 3 balls before holing out should be enough to see England home.

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Post by king_carlos on Wed 12 Feb 2020, 7:30 pm

Inexperience from Curran hitting into the wind. That ball could have been an easy 2 runs rather than 6 or out.

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Post by king_carlos on Wed 12 Feb 2020, 7:33 pm

Good bowling from Ngidi and not so good batting by England.

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 12 Feb 2020, 7:36 pm

Poor from England at the end. Calmer heads should have prevailed from needing 7 off 7 and 5 off 5.

Agree with Olly about Denly - Malan should be in for this series, with Banton a strong contender further down the line.

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 12 Feb 2020, 8:45 pm

Im genuinely baffled as to why they have played Denly in so much white ball this winter. Aside from Ed Smith.

The positive is Rashid bowling effectively.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 13 Feb 2020, 12:29 pm

Yesterday was a good example for those who wish to have Buttler coming in after the powerplay is over...and actually I think it is a fair argument, so long as the batting order is flexible.

People are right in that Roy/Bairstow (Hales/Banton in reserve) can take advantage of the powerplay, probably just as effectively as Buttler can...but in those middle overs the likes of Stokes/Morgan take a little longer to get in, and aren't as big hitters as Buttler is (they are still quite big, but particularly against spin Buttler is a lot better).

Maybe there is a best of both worlds between those who want Buttler to face as many balls as possible, and those who want in him to face the mid-late overs? Could he "float" in the order to come in at the fall of wicket closest to the end of the powerplay (ie. a wicket falls in the 5th-8th over, he comes in next, despite maybe not being "down" as coming in in next?). This gives him plenty of time to face 30-50 balls, and also potentially be the "finisher"?

I suppose there would be nothing worse for an opposing captain if Roy/Bairstow have got England to say 70-0 off 6 overs...one gets out and Buttler is coming to the crease next...

It's not an easy decision either way!
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Post by Duty281 on Thu 13 Feb 2020, 1:06 pm

Don’t overcomplicate - it’s T20. Best batsman Buttler needs to open. Second best in at 2 and so on and so forth. You should never hide the most destructive batsman down the order. Do the damage up front and not later on.

England lost yesterday because they couldn’t keep their heads. Can understand Morgan going for another big hit after the three consecutive boundaries up to that point, but it was really poor batting from Moeen and Curran at the death.

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 13 Feb 2020, 1:18 pm

Calling Buttler Englands best batsman is a stretch. ( I mean last week it was Banton )

Does Stokes get a pass on 4 off 7 balls?

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Post by Duty281 on Thu 13 Feb 2020, 1:56 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Calling Buttler Englands best batsman is a stretch. ( I mean last week it was Banton )

Does Stokes get a pass on 4 off 7 balls?

Buttler is England’s best T20 batsman, I don’t think there can be much doubt. I have never said Banton is England’s best batsman (most talented and the one with greatest potential in the limited overs form for England, yes, but not proven yet. Will most likely end up being an opener or ‘3’ option down the road. )

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 13 Feb 2020, 7:50 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:Calling Buttler Englands best batsman is a stretch. ( I mean last week it was Banton )

Does Stokes get a pass on 4 off 7 balls?

Buttler is England’s best T20 batsman, I don’t think there can be much doubt. I have never said Banton is England’s best batsman (most talented and the one with greatest potential in the limited overs form for England, yes, but not proven yet. Will most likely end up being an opener or ‘3’ option down the road. )

That hes not got the best average or strike rate or ever scored a century in the format domestically or internationally puts some question on that claim. Although skewed by him not having played much in the last couple of years hes only ranked 33 in the world, Hales has played less than him recently and is ranked 15th. Morgan 11th. Malan averages 57 at 156 in T20is.
It's a claim that can be disputed.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 14 Feb 2020, 12:31 pm

Malan should be playing. I like Denly for ODIs (and tests, I’m a Denly Guy), but I really think you make sure that Malan plays even if he doesn’t open.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 14 Feb 2020, 2:15 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I like Denly for ODIs (and tests, I’m a Denly Guy)

Alright Ed I know hes a better player than his ODI record would suggest but really ahead of who? 

Roy, Bairstow, Malan, Root, Morgan are all proven performers. Lets put Hales in the bin. Banton heads up the "next big thing" brigade, whilst Sam Hain has ludicrously good domestic stats. 

The real reason why Denly shouldnt be playing ODIs now is because he will be 36 by the time the next meaningful competition in that format comes around. Why not play younger players? 

Or as was suggested by the leadership may be the case they are using the ODIs as opportunities to try out players with a view to T20. But exactly the same list holds up for that, whilst denly has less credentials to suggest he could be a major world force in that format. England have better players, and they have younger players who could be better. 

To me its a waste of time picking him "to do a job" for now in white ball. He hasnt even done it that well, his figures in ODIs and T20is are pretty medicore and his bowling makes Sam Curran in Sri Lanka look threatening. *

(* fact checks...he dismantled sri lanka in one T20i (quite ironic following the SCurann jibe) which completely skews his bowling figures for that format, but generally his bowling hasnt been good enough to warrant inclusion in a side that had 2 spinners outside absolute dustbowls)

Im reading that Denly is getting a spot ahead of Malan again for the next T20 match. Its just ridiculous. Its not even loke they bolwed Denly in the last game, and Malan can deliver part time leggies too if thats seen as such an important aspect wen youve only got 2 full time and one other part time spinner in the side.

Whilst we can debate all day who the best English T20 batsman is, we can fairly say Denly isn't one of the top 5.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 14 Feb 2020, 2:28 pm

Jesus Christ, Goose, you’re gonna give yourself an aneurysm.

I like him for ODIs is really very different from “PICK THE MESSIAH!” He’s an option and I don’t really think you automatically throw a player away cos of age at the next tournament.

There’s always a little rotation, a mix of styles needed and also good characters. I don’t think he’s someone whose game is gonna be wildly affected by being in the ODI squads and test squads either, which can be an issue for some.

He’s a solid option.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 14 Feb 2020, 2:52 pm

I'd pick him for odis suggests theres some value in doing so, my opinion is there isn't if you're (as england are) treating the bilateral series as developments for future tournaments.
He doesnt get in a first 11 or a development 11, theres players sitting out who would add more in the short term to win the game in hand and more in terms of their development for future meaningful competitions.
I wouldnt pick him for odis.

My real anger is directed at England currently picking him for T20s, again whilst leaving put far better players. I just dont see the point...its not like Malan and Banton need a rest, and frankly Id have root in ahead of him for the squad.



Pick players because they are good enough to make a first 11 or have the potential to be as good or better tha those players. Not a solid county pro who's gor a poor international record and wouldnt make anyones reserve batsman spot. Theres a pretty limited number of games for england to get their squad and team sorted for the world cup, unless they are genuinely believing Denly will be a key part of that making him a mainstay of the white ball squads is pointless.

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Post by king_carlos on Fri 14 Feb 2020, 3:55 pm

Given his record in T20is I expect that Malan will get another shot. He was on the naughty step for the first game due to not running a bye. I was surprised that dirty laundry was done in public as well.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 14 Feb 2020, 4:40 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Yesterday was a good example for those who wish to have Buttler coming in after the powerplay is over...and actually I think it is a fair argument, so long as the batting order is flexible.

People are right in that Roy/Bairstow (Hales/Banton in reserve) can take advantage of the powerplay, probably just as effectively as Buttler can...but in those middle overs the likes of Stokes/Morgan take a little longer to get in, and aren't as big hitters as Buttler is (they are still quite big, but particularly against spin Buttler is a lot better).

Maybe there is a best of both worlds between those who want Buttler to face as many balls as possible, and those who want in him to face the mid-late overs? Could he "float" in the order to come in at the fall of wicket closest to the end of the powerplay (ie. a wicket falls in the 5th-8th over, he comes in next, despite maybe not being "down" as coming in in next?). This gives him plenty of time to face 30-50 balls, and also potentially be the "finisher"?

I suppose there would be nothing worse for an opposing captain if Roy/Bairstow have got England to say 70-0 off 6 overs...one gets out and Buttler is coming to the crease next...

It's not an easy decision either way!

Another example of this flip side of the argument today, with Buttler out early and Roy/Bairstow doing damage in the powerplay again. (btw this is an example of a "good" problem to have!)
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Post by Duty281 on Fri 14 Feb 2020, 5:21 pm

Moeen’s cameo has probably tipped the game decisively in England’s favour.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 14 Feb 2020, 5:27 pm

Superb from Moeen. Excellent with the ball first game, superb with the bat here, a good reintroduction to the side so far.
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Post by alfie on Fri 14 Feb 2020, 5:28 pm

Watching this I am minded to suggest it mightn't matter much what order they all bat in as Moeen (!) and Stokes put SA to the sword...

However I tend to agree with Goose that Denly is a strange selection for this format considering the twin issues of outright class and potential for the future (though in fairness Malan is also no spring chicken). As for Buttler opening it seems a little unnecessary : sure he might come off spectacularly ; but the pairing of Roy and Bairstow seems to be highly effective in all white ball stuff so why mess with it ? Jos is certainly a master at coming in and smashing sixes from the off so why the big deal about getting him in early ? It isn't t5 Smile

Anyway as said above if Moeen is going to hit 39 from 11 all is irrelevant thumbsup

Hard to see England messing this one up from here...

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 14 Feb 2020, 5:33 pm

alfie wrote:Watching this I am minded to suggest it mightn't matter much what order they all bat in as Moeen (!) and Stokes put SA to the sword...

However I tend to agree with Goose that Denly is a strange selection for this format considering the twin issues of outright class and potential for the future (though in fairness Malan is also no spring chicken). As for Buttler opening it seems a little unnecessary : sure he might come off spectacularly ;  but the pairing of Roy and Bairstow seems to be highly effective in all white ball stuff so why mess with it ? Jos is certainly a master at coming in and smashing sixes from the off so why the big deal about getting him in early ? It isn't t5 Smile

Anyway as said above if Moeen is going to hit 39 from 11 all is irrelevant thumbsup

Hard to see England messing this one up from here...

Think I've decided on this notional top 7...

Roy
Bairstow
Banton/Hales/Livingstone
Buttler
Morgan
Stokes
Moeen

With the caveat Buttler can shift above Banton if needed. Moeen might also come in earlier, if spin is on in the middle overs - he's much better coming in against it than Stokes/Morgan are, who both take a little while to get going against it.

And yeah, I would consign the Joe Denly T20i experiment to the annuls of history. Offers us something in tests and potentially ODIs, but in this format England have far far better options.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 14 Feb 2020, 5:34 pm

Chris Jordan just got Chris Jordan'd by Bavuma there - what a grab!

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