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England 6 Nations Thread

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Post by LondonTiger Thu 23 Jan 2020, 10:04 am

First topic message reminder :

Sunday 2nd February 15:00 - France (a)
BBC Sport

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 2: Brendon Pickerill (New Zealand)
TMO: Brian MacNeice (Ireland)


Saturday 8th February 16:45 - Scotland (a)
BBC Sport

Referee: Pascal Gauzere (France)
Assistant 1: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Assistant 2: Federico Anselmi (Argentina)
TMO: James Leckie (Australia)


Sunday 23rd February 15:00 - Ireland (h)
ITV Sport

Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Marius Jonker (South Africa)


Saturday 7th March 16:45 - Wales (h)
ITV Sport, S4C

Referee: Ben O’Keeffe (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Marius Jonker (South Africa)


Saturday 14th March 16:45 - Italy (a)
ITV Sport

Referee: Pascal Gauzere (France)
Assistant 1: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Brian MacNeice (Ireland)




Squad

Forwards
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 21 caps)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 19 caps)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Ben Earl (Saracens, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 14 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 45 caps)
Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors, 1 cap)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 34 caps)
George Kruis (Saracens, 41 caps)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 62 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 81 caps)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 6 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 68 caps)
Alex Moon (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 31 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 58 caps)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 18 caps)

Backs
Elliot Daly (Saracens, 39 caps)
Ollie Devoto (Exeter Chiefs, 1 cap)
Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 79 caps)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 65 caps)
George Furbank (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 9 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 47 caps)
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 52 caps)
Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 40 caps)
Jacob Umaga (Wasps, uncapped)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 42 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 95 caps)

Apprentice players
Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Josh Hodge (Newcastle Falcons, uncapped)

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Post by yappysnap Wed 12 Feb 2020, 8:49 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:How was the interview a car crash? i thought it was great.

Breaking News: Rugby World Shocker...Rugby Player drinks a beeer after a game...Snowflakes around the world in Outrage.

Sorry guys I loved the interview. I meant more that it was totally not what the reporter would have wanted but it's far more honest for that, his answers to the dreary post match cliche questions were quality but the whole thing made me cringe in a David Brent The Office way. Genge is great and if you haven't seen him on House of Rugby you should.

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Post by yappysnap Wed 12 Feb 2020, 9:56 pm

What position does Redpath play and what's he like anyone?

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Post by lostinwales Wed 12 Feb 2020, 10:20 pm

yappysnap wrote:What position does Redpath play and what's he like anyone?

Inside centre for Sale. looking at the stats hes only played a handful of times for them. Apparently his dad used to play scrum half (yes I know who his dad is)

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Post by yappysnap Thu 13 Feb 2020, 7:48 am

yappysnap wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:How was the interview a car crash? i thought it was great.

Breaking News: Rugby World Shocker...Rugby Player drinks a beeer after a game...Snowflakes around the world in Outrage.

.
Sorry guys I loved the interview. I meant more that it was totally not what the reporter would have wanted but it's far more honest for that, his answers to the dreary post match cliche questions were quality but the whole thing made me cringe in a David Brent The Office way. Genge is great and if you haven't seen him on House of Rugby you should.

So having listened to a few podcasts I'd say the only people upset about Genge's interview are the troglodytes he references getting hysterical that he called them out. Wastes of oxygen all of them


Last edited by yappysnap on Thu 13 Feb 2020, 7:48 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by yappysnap Thu 13 Feb 2020, 7:48 am

Ok that formatted weird

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Post by SecretFly Thu 13 Feb 2020, 9:23 am

Okay, when the dust has settled, - which troglodytes was Genge actually having a go at?  Media people/journalists who criticised the French game performance?

I have nothing against his little post-game performance.  It's spice to add to the entertainment - but......
....  his speech seemed to be directed at people who perhaps wrote them off?  His tone was middle finger up, there you go, shove it, maybe you lot won't over-react again.......

And there's the bit at the end that interests me.  Because behind the laid back bravado of 'We ain't fussed about what you media types think' was a man itching with spite and ill feeling.  So who was over-reacting?

Genge has a lot to learn if he thinks some rappy jive talking post-game interview is going to keep the baying media mob under duress if or when the team underperform again.  
They don't give a damn about his sensitivity to criticism.  
If Genge or his team play badly, then their nuts will be theirs for roasting.  And now I suppose they'll enjoy it all the more.  The reaction goads them on.
This Them v Us has always been historically a bad signal of team dynamic disintegration in English rugby.  If the media sense blood...............
Jones better be careful to keep a bit of a lid on it or like rust, it will eat away and corrode.

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Post by Scottrf Thu 13 Feb 2020, 9:26 am

The stranger thing for me what that he thought that horrendous performance would silence the critics.

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Post by ebop Thu 13 Feb 2020, 9:35 am

Losing one game to France resulted in an English player, a prop, no less, going rogue and losing his cool is quite revealing. He went outside his remit as a prop and should give himself an uppercut.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 13 Feb 2020, 9:55 am

Jees fly I know you've always got your tongue firmly in your cheek but rappy jive talk so more prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt. Really.

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Post by lostinwales Thu 13 Feb 2020, 10:38 am

ebop wrote:Losing one game to France resulted in an English player, a prop, no less, going rogue and losing his cool is quite revealing. He went outside his remit as a prop and should give himself an uppercut.

Sausage alert

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Post by Rugby Fan Thu 13 Feb 2020, 10:58 am

yappysnap wrote:So having listened to a few podcasts I'd say the only people upset about Genge's interview are the troglodytes he references getting hysterical that he called them out.
One of the regulars on the Maul Over Rugby podcast was the cameraman for that interview. He likes Genge but thought he struck the wrong tone. The oddest thing for him was when Genge said everyone had changed their tune after a win. As Scottrf says, no-one has really lauded the team after that match, although it was a better effort than last week. Also, the interview took place so soon after the end of the match, it's hard to think who Genge could have heard from. It sounded more like a coaching talking point "They'll all change their tune if we get a win..."

The cameraman's colleagues on the podcast thought he was reading too much into individual comments.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Thu 13 Feb 2020, 11:07 am

king_carlos wrote:Earl having a powerful debut and the line-out functioning solidly in awful conditions make me worry less about the pack going into the Ireland game. Against Stander, van der Flier and O'Mahoney I can see Earl getting his first start.

Mako concerned me against Scotland though. I thought he looked a long way from full fitness.

The backs worry me though. Both defensively coming up against Murray and Sextons kicking game. Also in attack up against a possible centre pairing of Aki and Henshaw. If I were Andy Farrell I'd definitely be sticking with that powerful partnership given England have lacked go forward in the last two games.

9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.May 12.Devoto 13.Joseph 14.Watson/Thorley 15.Furbank

21.Heinz 22.Ford 23.Daly

I honestly think that would have a lot more balance if Manu and Slade aren't available.

That would be a good back line v Ireland...but you wont see it.

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Post by ebop Thu 13 Feb 2020, 11:35 am

lostinwales wrote:
ebop wrote:Losing one game to France resulted in an English player, a prop, no less, going rogue and losing his cool is quite revealing. He went outside his remit as a prop and should give himself an uppercut.

Sausage alert
Yeah true, Genge was a spicy little pepperoni after that loss to France
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Post by Gooseberry Thu 13 Feb 2020, 2:31 pm

Latest has it that Tullagi is in the mix for Ireland after the initial assessments in training showed hes fully healed.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 13 Feb 2020, 2:39 pm

Great news. Every time he got the ball vs france he was making yards.

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Post by BamBam Thu 13 Feb 2020, 3:20 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/51491823

Shame for Watson but we're covered for wingers. The quotes from Eddie sound like Slade could be fit too, that could be an interesting selection decision if he is


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Post by stub Thu 13 Feb 2020, 4:07 pm

Would be so good to have Manu and Slade available...

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Post by yappysnap Fri 14 Feb 2020, 12:21 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Earl having a powerful debut and the line-out functioning solidly in awful conditions make me worry less about the pack going into the Ireland game. Against Stander, van der Flier and O'Mahoney I can see Earl getting his first start.

Mako concerned me against Scotland though. I thought he looked a long way from full fitness.

The backs worry me though. Both defensively coming up against Murray and Sextons kicking game. Also in attack up against a possible centre pairing of Aki and Henshaw. If I were Andy Farrell I'd definitely be sticking with that powerful partnership given England have lacked go forward in the last two games.

9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.May 12.Devoto 13.Joseph 14.Watson/Thorley 15.Furbank

21.Heinz 22.Ford 23.Daly

I honestly think that would have a lot more balance if Manu and Slade aren't available.

That would be a good back line v Ireland...but you wont see it.

Or a Youngs/Farrell/Devoto combination could be so devoid of spark we spend 80 mins running side to side, getting frustrated, kicking poorly and then conceding. We'd probably be good in defense but attack could be terrible.

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Post by Gooseberry Fri 14 Feb 2020, 7:33 am

yappysnap wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Earl having a powerful debut and the line-out functioning solidly in awful conditions make me worry less about the pack going into the Ireland game. Against Stander, van der Flier and O'Mahoney I can see Earl getting his first start.

Mako concerned me against Scotland though. I thought he looked a long way from full fitness.

The backs worry me though. Both defensively coming up against Murray and Sextons kicking game. Also in attack up against a possible centre pairing of Aki and Henshaw. If I were Andy Farrell I'd definitely be sticking with that powerful partnership given England have lacked go forward in the last two games.

9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.May 12.Devoto 13.Joseph 14.Watson/Thorley 15.Furbank

21.Heinz 22.Ford 23.Daly

I honestly think that would have a lot more balance if Manu and Slade aren't available.

That would be a good back line v Ireland...but you wont see it.

Or a Youngs/Farrell/Devoto combination could be so devoid of spark we spend 80 mins running side to side, getting frustrated, kicking poorly and then conceding. We'd probably be good in defense but attack could be terrible.

Sausage

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 14 Feb 2020, 7:45 am

Sounds pretty likely that tuilagi will be back and in the starting lineup. I'd prefer heinz ford farrell tuilagi.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 14 Feb 2020, 9:18 am

Like these quotes from farrell senior via walesonline. I think hes spot on and given he places a seemingly high value on the constant develop bodes pretty well for where ireland want to be.

He's the best I’ve ever seen at keeping on reinventing himself, Eddie," the Ireland supremo said.

"He's hungry to keep getting better as a coach. He doesn’t get older in my eyes, Eddie, because he keeps himself relevant.

"How much he is able to be calm enough to change his mind on a few things and go with a different and fresh approach I think is key to the longevity of his coaching career.

"He’s still on the upward curve, which says everything really", Farrell said, adding: “You don’t keep reinventing yourself if things are going really well.

"Those guys who, in business or as a player or a coach, feel they are on the slide a little bit and say, ‘I’m still doing what I’ve always done and it’s worked for me in the past’...then you probably end up going a little bit lower than what you’ve got.

"That’s what you’ve got to be careful of and I think he does that pretty well".

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 14 Feb 2020, 10:07 am

yappysnap wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Earl having a powerful debut and the line-out functioning solidly in awful conditions make me worry less about the pack going into the Ireland game. Against Stander, van der Flier and O'Mahoney I can see Earl getting his first start.

Mako concerned me against Scotland though. I thought he looked a long way from full fitness.

The backs worry me though. Both defensively coming up against Murray and Sextons kicking game. Also in attack up against a possible centre pairing of Aki and Henshaw. If I were Andy Farrell I'd definitely be sticking with that powerful partnership given England have lacked go forward in the last two games.

9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.May 12.Devoto 13.Joseph 14.Watson/Thorley 15.Furbank

21.Heinz 22.Ford 23.Daly

I honestly think that would have a lot more balance if Manu and Slade aren't available.

That would be a good back line v Ireland...but you wont see it.

Or a Youngs/Farrell/Devoto combination could be so devoid of spark we spend 80 mins running side to side, getting frustrated, kicking poorly and then conceding. We'd probably be good in defense but attack could be terrible.
Devoto is a good hard carrying centre these days who finds space and can offload very well. The question is ....can he do that at the next level to the prem and European.

We will only find out if he's given time on the pitch...but that seems unlikely, the fact Jones is willing to rush back Slade and Manu.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 14 Feb 2020, 10:16 am

Slade and tuilagi are big step up from devoto though.

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Post by Gooseberry Fri 14 Feb 2020, 10:37 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
yappysnap wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Earl having a powerful debut and the line-out functioning solidly in awful conditions make me worry less about the pack going into the Ireland game. Against Stander, van der Flier and O'Mahoney I can see Earl getting his first start.

Mako concerned me against Scotland though. I thought he looked a long way from full fitness.

The backs worry me though. Both defensively coming up against Murray and Sextons kicking game. Also in attack up against a possible centre pairing of Aki and Henshaw. If I were Andy Farrell I'd definitely be sticking with that powerful partnership given England have lacked go forward in the last two games.

9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.May 12.Devoto 13.Joseph 14.Watson/Thorley 15.Furbank

21.Heinz 22.Ford 23.Daly

I honestly think that would have a lot more balance if Manu and Slade aren't available.

That would be a good back line v Ireland...but you wont see it.

Or a Youngs/Farrell/Devoto combination could be so devoid of spark we spend 80 mins running side to side, getting frustrated, kicking poorly and then conceding. We'd probably be good in defense but attack could be terrible.
Devoto is a good hard carrying centre these days who finds space and can offload very well. The question is ....can he do that at the next level to the prem and European.

We will only find out if he's given time on the pitch...but that seems unlikely, the fact Jones is willing to rush back Slade and Manu.


Sausage comment. 

Theres nothing to suggest that Tuillagi has been rushed back. He wasnt named in the initial squad on the assumption that he may not be fit, but that they would give him and Slade to the opportunity to see if they were and work their way back in the training camp rather than with their clubs . He passed through the required medical sign offs and training to show he was fit. He may or may not be named in the 23 for the matchday squad. I dont see how thats rushing someone back. if he was fit 10 days before the game he has plenty of time to get match sharp. 

That they named 3 other centers in the training squad shows that their wasnt a predetermined assumption that Slade and Tullagi would be fit. Its still not certain that both or either will be in the 23.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 14 Feb 2020, 11:14 am

Sausage Comment...

In the past Jones HAS rushed Tuilagi back even when he clearly wasnt fit...resulting in further injuries.

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Post by Cumbrian Fri 14 Feb 2020, 12:16 pm

Isn't Devoto primarily an inside centre? I suppose the risk has to be weighed up; the danger of Manu breaking down versus the risk of a novice international playing out of position and defending an unfamiliar channel.
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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 14 Feb 2020, 12:26 pm

Whats to be lost trialing Devoto at 12?

The grand slam is gone.
We have notoriusly had issues finding a 12.
Devoto has perfomed very well in Prem and Euro games.
His offloading game might actually benefit Joseph at 13.

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Post by Cumbrian Fri 14 Feb 2020, 12:31 pm

Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy to give Devoto a shot at 12, I just don't feel great about him being Manu's replacement at outside centre.

I am not one of those who think that the Championship is over once the grand slam is gone, I see winning the tournament as important, I want to win every game!
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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 14 Feb 2020, 12:40 pm

Oohh not outside centre...

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Post by Gooseberry Fri 14 Feb 2020, 1:05 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Whats to be lost trialing Devoto at 12?

The game? A chance to get the first choice partnership working in a competitive meaningful fixture? 

If Jones believes hes the best option there he will get picked. Theres an opportunity coming in the summer which will force centres outside the established group of Tuillagi, Farrell, Slade, JJ to play tests rugby, and then a likely sizeable shake up of the squad for the AIs. 

I really dont get why you''d change a side just for the sake of change on the off chance someone might do well in a one off game that may not be indicative of how they will perform long term. 

And really if Tuillagi is fit then he plays, and a Devoto Tulliga centre combination would feel more like the sort of combination sausages spent years critising England for picking.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Fri 14 Feb 2020, 1:19 pm

So does that mean you favour a devoto tuilagi combo goose?

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Post by GeordieFalcon Fri 14 Feb 2020, 7:55 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Whats to be lost trialing Devoto at 12?

The game? A chance to get the first choice partnership working in a competitive meaningful fixture? 

If Jones believes hes the best option there he will get picked. Theres an opportunity coming in the summer which will force centres outside the established group of Tuillagi, Farrell, Slade, JJ to play tests rugby, and then a likely sizeable shake up of the squad for the AIs. 

I really dont get why you''d change a side just for the sake of change on the off chance someone might do well in a one off game that may not be indicative of how they will perform long term. 

And really if Tuillagi is fit then he plays, and a Devoto Tulliga centre combination would feel more like the sort of combination sausages spent years critising England for picking.

I didnt say just for one game.

We have all said 12 is an area that needs work. Its a very settled side in general...not a risk putitng a new player in with other exoerienced players around him.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Fri 14 Feb 2020, 8:58 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Whats to be lost trialing Devoto at 12?

The game? A chance to get the first choice partnership working in a competitive meaningful fixture? 

If Jones believes hes the best option there he will get picked. Theres an opportunity coming in the summer which will force centres outside the established group of Tuillagi, Farrell, Slade, JJ to play tests rugby, and then a likely sizeable shake up of the squad for the AIs. 

I really dont get why you''d change a side just for the sake of change on the off chance someone might do well in a one off game that may not be indicative of how they will perform long term. 

And really if Tuillagi is fit then he plays, and a Devoto Tulliga centre combination would feel more like the sort of combination sausages spent years critising England for picking.

I didnt say just for one game.

We have all said 12 is an area that needs work. Its a very settled side in general...not a risk putitng a new player in with other exoerienced players around him.  

You know very well the problem with trialing Devoto Vs Ireland. To do that Jones has to drop one of the two flyhalfs. He either drops the one that's shown a shred of form or he drops the captain. If he drops the captain then that will be all over the papers, if he drops Ford then there's the very real possibility we'll lose to Ireland as Farrell has been playing at about 50%. He'll also have the problem that if it's not working Vs Ireland and he's dropped Ford then Devoto will be getting the early bath because if he's backed Farrell to start he isn't then going to sub him when the team is under pressure.

The summer could be a good time to look at our centre stock. Devoto, Dingwall, Sam James, Marchant, Lozowski and maybe Johnny Williams there's quite a few that could come in and stake a claim.

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Post by yappysnap Fri 14 Feb 2020, 10:28 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
yappysnap wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Earl having a powerful debut and the line-out functioning solidly in awful conditions make me worry less about the pack going into the Ireland game. Against Stander, van der Flier and O'Mahoney I can see Earl getting his first start.

Mako concerned me against Scotland though. I thought he looked a long way from full fitness.

The backs worry me though. Both defensively coming up against Murray and Sextons kicking game. Also in attack up against a possible centre pairing of Aki and Henshaw. If I were Andy Farrell I'd definitely be sticking with that powerful partnership given England have lacked go forward in the last two games.

9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.May 12.Devoto 13.Joseph 14.Watson/Thorley 15.Furbank

21.Heinz 22.Ford 23.Daly

I honestly think that would have a lot more balance if Manu and Slade aren't available.

That would be a good back line v Ireland...but you wont see it.

Or a Youngs/Farrell/Devoto combination could be so devoid of spark we spend 80 mins running side to side, getting frustrated, kicking poorly and then conceding. We'd probably be good in defense but attack could be terrible.

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Post by yappysnap Fri 14 Feb 2020, 10:30 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Slade and tuilagi are big step up from devoto though.

I'd agree with this.

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Post by yappysnap Fri 14 Feb 2020, 10:36 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Whats to be lost trialing Devoto at 12?

The game? A chance to get the first choice partnership working in a competitive meaningful fixture? 

If Jones believes hes the best option there he will get picked. Theres an opportunity coming in the summer which will force centres outside the established group of Tuillagi, Farrell, Slade, JJ to play tests rugby, and then a likely sizeable shake up of the squad for the AIs. 

I really dont get why you''d change a side just for the sake of change on the off chance someone might do well in a one off game that may not be indicative of how they will perform long term. 

And really if Tuillagi is fit then he plays, and a Devoto Tulliga centre combination would feel more like the sort of combination sausages spent years critising England for picking.

I didnt say just for one game.

We have all said 12 is an area that needs work. Its a very settled side in general...not a risk putitng a new player in with other exoerienced players around him.  

You know very well the problem with trialing Devoto Vs Ireland. To do that Jones has to drop one of the two flyhalfs. He either drops the one that's shown a shred of form or he drops the captain. If he drops the captain then that will be all over the papers, if he drops Ford then there's the very real possibility we'll lose to Ireland as Farrell has been playing at about 50%. He'll also have the problem that if it's not working Vs Ireland and he's dropped Ford then Devoto will be getting the early bath because if he's backed Farrell to start he isn't then going to sub him when the team is under pressure.

The summer could be a good time to look at our centre stock. Devoto, Dingwall, Sam James, Marchant, Lozowski and maybe Johnny Williams there's quite a few that could come in and stake a claim.

Thus is very true.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 15 Feb 2020, 3:20 pm

The summer tour will be fascinating....

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 15 Feb 2020, 3:22 pm

Thats true what you say about the 2 fly halves sam.

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Post by Rugby Fan Sat 15 Feb 2020, 5:18 pm

NZ press is talking a lot about the 2 playmaker set-up. NZ want to it through 10 and 15, and Beauden Barrett was only moved after Damien McKenzie got injured. Having seen McKenzie play today, I think opposition teams were lucky he didn't make the tournament.

NZ went for 2 playmakers after realizing international defences had become tougher to crack. That was their main takeaway from the Lions tour, and Irish defeats. Stuart Lancaster said in a recent Off the Ball interview that the Southerm Hemisphere had been slow to cotton on to the improvements in the North.

England never really tried 10/15 playmakers rather than 10/12, and the evidence is still too patchy on whether one is obviously better,


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Post by lostinwales Sat 15 Feb 2020, 5:41 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:NZ press is talking a lot about the 2 playmaker set-up. NZ want to it through 10 and 15, and Beauden Barrett was only moved after Damien McKenzie got injured. Having seen McKenzie play today, I think opposition teams were lucky he didn't make the tournament.

NZ went for 2 playmakers after realizing international defences had become tougher to crack. That was their main takeaway from the Lions tour, and Irish defeats. Stuart Lancaster said in a recent Off the Ball interview that the Southerm Hemisphere had been slow to cotton on to the improvements in the North.

England never really tried 10/15 playmakers rather than 10/12, and the evidence is still too patchy on whether one is obviously better,


A lot depends on the personel available. We sort of fell into the Ford/Farrell combo, and haven't really had a guy who can play 15 and act as another playmaker. (Not counting Goode).

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Post by GeordieFalcon Sat 15 Feb 2020, 7:20 pm

What's peoples thoughts on Sam Simmonds.?

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Post by king_carlos Sun 16 Feb 2020, 3:46 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:What's peoples thoughts on Sam Simmonds.?

Very good player but if we want an all rounder at 8 then I rate Earl higher. He has the physicality to standout at international level.

Zach Mercer is back and scored for Bath yesterday. He offers a different skill set at 8.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 16 Feb 2020, 4:37 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:NZ press is talking a lot about the 2 playmaker set-up. NZ want to it through 10 and 15, and Beauden Barrett was only moved after Damien McKenzie got injured. Having seen McKenzie play today, I think opposition teams were lucky he didn't make the tournament.

NZ went for 2 playmakers after realizing international defences had become tougher to crack. That was their main takeaway from the Lions tour, and Irish defeats. Stuart Lancaster said in a recent Off the Ball interview that the Southerm Hemisphere had been slow to cotton on to the improvements in the North.

England never really tried 10/15 playmakers rather than 10/12, and the evidence is still too patchy on whether one is obviously better,


A lot depends on the personel available. We sort of fell into the Ford/Farrell combo, and haven't really had a guy who can play 15 and act as another playmaker. (Not counting Goode).

A 10/15 playmaker option could be available to England shortly with Harry Mallinder back.

From experience it's a different kind of set up for your flyhalf. Your 12 tends to stand a lot closer because you are probably looking at having a heavier carrier there. Generally means it's a longer pass to find your secondary kicker.

I've long thought England have lacked imagination with Ford and Farrell. Why not play them left and right in phase play. You then always have an option for the 9 and it's going to be hard to mark because there's no obvious blindside. You distribute the backs depending on space. Got back to standard formation from lineouts.

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Post by lostinwales Sun 16 Feb 2020, 11:01 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:NZ press is talking a lot about the 2 playmaker set-up. NZ want to it through 10 and 15, and Beauden Barrett was only moved after Damien McKenzie got injured. Having seen McKenzie play today, I think opposition teams were lucky he didn't make the tournament.

NZ went for 2 playmakers after realizing international defences had become tougher to crack. That was their main takeaway from the Lions tour, and Irish defeats. Stuart Lancaster said in a recent Off the Ball interview that the Southerm Hemisphere had been slow to cotton on to the improvements in the North.

England never really tried 10/15 playmakers rather than 10/12, and the evidence is still too patchy on whether one is obviously better,


A lot depends on the personel available. We sort of fell into the Ford/Farrell combo, and haven't really had a guy who can play 15 and act as another playmaker. (Not counting Goode).

A 10/15 playmaker option could be available to England shortly with Harry Mallinder back.

From experience it's a different kind of set up for your flyhalf. Your 12 tends to stand a lot closer because you are probably looking at having a heavier carrier there. Generally means it's a longer pass to find your secondary kicker.

I've long thought England have lacked imagination with Ford and Farrell. Why not play them left and right in phase play. You then always have an option for the 9 and it's going to be hard to mark because there's no obvious blindside. You distribute the backs depending on space. Got back to standard formation from lineouts.

In the summer I'd assume Ford and Farrell will be at home. You would have to think Marcus Smith will be next in line. Tough task to produce the goods from day one but its an opportunity also.

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Post by lostinwales Sun 16 Feb 2020, 11:04 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:What's peoples thoughts on Sam Simmonds.?

I am the same height and weight as Sam Simmonds. Having him play for England feeds into the 'If only I was 25 30 years younger and still playing rugby' fantasy

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Post by king_carlos Mon 17 Feb 2020, 12:30 am

Even with the World Cup starters rested there are some very good players due game time in the summer.

1.Genge 2.Cowan-Dickie 3.Stuart 4.Launchbury 5.Isiekwe 6.Hill 7.Ludlam 8.Earl
9.Spencer 10.Smith 11.Nowell 12.Devoto 13.Lawrence 14.Thorley 15.Furbank

16.Dunn 17.Obano 18.Williams 19.Kpoku 20.Mercer 21.Randall 22.Simmonds 23.Mallinder

Personal choice hence I've gone for Lawrence over Dingwall, Isiekwe and Kpoku over Ewels and Moon, Simmonds over Umaga despite the latter players being in 6 Nations training squad.

There's a lot of talent around. I hope a few players who offer differing skill-sets to current regulars get a go. Earl and Mercer I think offer differing skills at 8 for instance. Ollie Lawrence and Joel Kpoku I think could be a real stars in the near future.

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Post by Taylorman Mon 17 Feb 2020, 1:04 am

lostinwales wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:NZ press is talking a lot about the 2 playmaker set-up. NZ want to it through 10 and 15, and Beauden Barrett was only moved after Damien McKenzie got injured. Having seen McKenzie play today, I think opposition teams were lucky he didn't make the tournament.

NZ went for 2 playmakers after realizing international defences had become tougher to crack. That was their main takeaway from the Lions tour, and Irish defeats. Stuart Lancaster said in a recent Off the Ball interview that the Southerm Hemisphere had been slow to cotton on to the improvements in the North.

England never really tried 10/15 playmakers rather than 10/12, and the evidence is still too patchy on whether one is obviously better,


A lot depends on the personel available. We sort of fell into the Ford/Farrell combo, and haven't really had a guy who can play 15 and act as another playmaker. (Not counting Goode).

Yeah agree and its not like just anyone can slot in there. We missed DMac at the tournament but I think no more than Laumape who has played stunning rugby both before and during the tournament and continues to thrive. Barrett and Mo'unga did 'ok' but didnt cope against England. DMac would have added another dimension to the entire campaign, Laumape some serious midfield brick.

Its also a Foster thing so no doubt DMac and Barrett will be back in, with Mo'unga off the bench. having all three is a bonus at sub time, with either DMac or Barrett at Fulback.

But given we have gone with the 10/15 theory its just a matter of time when more players come through in the role. Its here to stay while the heavy defence systems dominate the running game.

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Post by Taylorman Mon 17 Feb 2020, 1:07 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Sausage Comment...

In the past Jones HAS rushed Tuilagi back even when he clearly wasnt fit...resulting in further injuries.

Quite the 'Beware- Fragile contents inside' our Manu Tuilagi isnt he? Seems to be on the injured list for the majority of his career.

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Post by lostinwales Mon 17 Feb 2020, 1:10 am

Taylorman wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Sausage Comment...

In the past Jones HAS rushed Tuilagi back even when he clearly wasnt fit...resulting in further injuries.

Quite the 'Beware- Fragile contents inside' our Manu Tuilagi isnt he? Seems to be on the injured list for the majority of his career.

Yes and understandably its a topic that has been done to death. But hes a player with an aura and I am greatful for the times he does play.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 17 Feb 2020, 6:47 am

Man theres some serious talent about in england Carlos. That's without 2 guys I'd personally want in willis and Dombrandt too!

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