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Post by Duty281 on Fri 20 Dec 2019, 10:33 am

First topic message reminder :

Pr4wn wrote:Why are 16 and 17 year olds old enough to pay tax but not old enough to vote?

Good point, take them out of having to pay tax.

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Post by lostinwales on Thu 16 Apr 2020, 11:06 am

Duty281 wrote:https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-leak-report-corbyn-election-whatsapp-antisemitism-tories-yougov-poll-a9462456.html

Good luck sorting this mess out, Mr. Starmer.

Isn't it utterly bizarre. Sounds like a terrible hack job, which helps it immensely. The fact that Labour lawyers didn't want to release it feeds into left wing conspiracy theories regardless of real reasons. The fact that the released document apparently contains multiple breaches of GDPR means that the lawyers are going to be very busy. We are back to Labour screwing itself while the world burns.

On the back of this report are claims that Corbyn would have won in 2017 if it wasn't for internal briefings behind his back between people we have never heard of.

Of course what would have happened had a few more votes gone Labour's way would have been at best a coalition with Labour as the largest single party. I have no faith whatsoever that Labour under Corbyn could have held a coalition together for more than the briefest period, and would have expected the Conservatives to come back into power in the ensuing chaos. The only benefit would have been that Labour might have started sorting themselves out 2 years ago rather than now.

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Post by GSC on Thu 16 Apr 2020, 12:27 pm

I'm sure Corbyn wouldve been able to hold together a razor thin majority featuring many coalition parties that wanted to cancel Brexit
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Post by lostinwales on Thu 16 Apr 2020, 12:48 pm

GSC wrote:I'm sure Corbyn wouldve been able to hold together a razor thin majority featuring many coalition parties that wanted to cancel Brexit

Look at the brilliant job he did holding together the different parts of his own party.

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Post by MrInvisible on Thu 16 Apr 2020, 5:11 pm

Its true that Labour weren't many votes off being largest party in the 2017 election though my personal view is that its bit of a stretch to claim the inter-party plotting against Corbyn made the difference in those marginal seats they narrowly missed out on.

Assuming they had picked up those extra seats to be the largest party, clearly Corbyn and McDonnell would have struggled implementing most of their radical domestic agenda, if they were relying on Lib Dem support, but on Brexit, given how the opposition parties did work together last autumn, I do believe they would have had the votes to get a confirmatory referendum on a renegotiated deal. However, even if that had been won by the Remain side I do feel there would have been a similar election result to last December, with Conservatives harnessing a 'Brexit betrayal' backlash at the polls from voters furious at having Brexit stolen from them against a divided Remain vote.

I personally feel that once a deal between Farage and Tories was done on standing down candidates, there was an inevitability of Labour being hit by this nationalistic backlash at the polls, and this would have happened (though at potentially different degrees) regardless of whether it was Corbyn, or a candidate from another wing of party leading Labour. For me, December 2019 election had some similarities of the 2015 Scottish landslide which did so much to damage Miliband's hopes of getting a majority - nationalism and a sense of betrayal being powerful motivating forces at the ballot box.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sat 18 Apr 2020, 6:44 pm

These former Labour staffers that quit because of Corbyn supporter Anti Semitism have been caught in what's app messages...

Insulting black members...

Calling Liverpool People junkies...

Northern People loopy...

Saying they would like to burn Corbyn..

Showing disappointment at Labour winning seats in 2017..

Poor old Starmer only thought he had an Anti Semitism problem..

Labour is rancid on Left and right...

Good luck clearing the mess Sir Keir.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Sat 18 Apr 2020, 8:53 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:These former Labour staffers that quit because of Corbyn supporter Anti Semitism have been caught in what's app messages...

Insulting black members...

Calling Liverpool People junkies...

Northern People loopy...

Saying they would like to burn Corbyn..

Showing disappointment at Labour winning seats in 2017..

Poor old Starmer only thought he had an Anti Semitism problem..

Labour is rancid on Left and right...

Good luck clearing the mess Sir Keir.
.
Don't envy him, but wish him luck as we need a decent opposition.
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Post by Duty281 on Tue 21 Apr 2020, 11:33 pm

Labour have had a bounce in the polls with this new leader of theirs...they're only around 20 points behind the Tories now. But this is the key one that Starmer needs to overhaul:

On who would make best Prime Minister (YouGov):

Boris Johnson: 46%; Keir Starmer: 22%; Not sure: 28%

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Post by Samo on Thu 30 Apr 2020, 7:52 am

Starmer impressing again at “prime ministers” questions. Looking forward to see how well he does in a full house against Johnson proper, but he’s already showing off a level of political acumen that Corbyn lacked.

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Post by superflyweight on Thu 30 Apr 2020, 9:20 am

He had Raab on toast yesterday. I almost felt sorry for Raab until I remembered that he's a useless prick.

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Post by GSC on Thu 30 Apr 2020, 3:40 pm

superflyweight wrote:He had Raab on toast yesterday.  I almost felt sorry for Raab until I remembered that he's a useless prick.
Laugh
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Post by lostinwales on Fri 01 May 2020, 9:40 am

Samo wrote:Starmer impressing again at “prime ministers” questions. Looking forward to see how well he does in a full house against Johnson proper, but he’s already showing off a level of political acumen that Corbyn lacked.

Just wondering when Johnson will ever return to PMQ's. He had an appalling record at appearing vs the 'might' of Corbyn. He had a good excuse this week though.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 01 May 2020, 9:49 pm

Survation

Con....48 +2
Lab....31  -4

A little bit too Vanilla so far is Sir Keir........Like Ed Miliband all over again.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 03 May 2020, 7:18 am

Opinium..
Con 51 +1
Lab 33 =

Johnson...
Approve......51%
Disapprove.31%

Starmer..
Approve..... 36%
Disapprove.18%

46% Don't Know...Quite revealing...

Yougov...Scotland

SNP....51%
Con....26%
Lab.....15%

Labour's worst share in Scotland since Polling began.


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Post by Pr4wn on Sun 03 May 2020, 8:19 am

Polling literally doesn't matter at all right now.

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Post by MrInvisible on Sun 03 May 2020, 12:46 pm

@Trussman, its v early days, but the Ed Miliband comparison for Starmer holds in the sense that he is also from soft-left wing of the party.  Agree with Pr4wn though that voting intention at moment is pretty meaningless - we are likely to be 12 months away from next (local and mayoral) elections.

The high don't know figure is explained by fact that average person won't have seen Starmer yet - he's only really visible once a week at PMQs, whilst government gets v high visibility every day with their daily briefings.  

In Starmer's favour is that due to the wall-to-wall Covid-19 coverage, the media hasn't had the opportunity to attack him from word go, like his (post-Blair) predecessors were.  Instead, he is having the chance to grow into role as leader of opposition on his own terms and have more of a blank slate with voters on which to build impressions.

I think in addition to holding government to account on Covid-19 response, a key role for Starmer and his shadow cabinet is to push the narrative on the economic stupidity of trying to leave EU transition period at end of this year - that will cost us all more at a time when we need every penny we can get to emerge from the impending global depression.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 04 May 2020, 3:52 pm

Pr4wn wrote:Polling literally doesn't matter at all right now.

Of course polls matter...They show whether the Public approves of the job Johnson is doing.....Whether Starmer is cutting through etc..

Just because Starmer is getting hammered and you don't like it....No reason to write one line asinine garbage...

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 04 May 2020, 5:05 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Polling literally doesn't matter at all right now.

Of course polls matter...They show whether the Public approves of the job Johnson is doing.....Whether Starmer is cutting through etc..

Just because Starmer is getting hammered and you don't like it....No reason to write one line asinine garbage...

He's not getting hammered, he's just not very visible, apart from PMQ's when hes been destroying Raab for fun. The current climate is all around the Conservative government and how they spin the current crisis, and no I don't think polling is going to be particularly accurate at the moment.

On the plus side (for Starmer) is that the focus is also away from the final struggles with the corbynite cult, who detonated their suicide bomb a couple of weeks ago with the release of that fudged internal document and all its related GDPR issues.

I think we have narrowly missed overtaking Italy in the official death rankings today, but it is only a matter of time. All I can say is that the government, one way or another, have managed the PR better than the crisis. You'd like to think circumstances will catch up with them but, who knows for sure.

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Post by GSC on Mon 04 May 2020, 9:28 pm

I would rather circumstances didn't really, and I have no love for this government.
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Post by Duty281 on Tue 05 May 2020, 10:20 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Survation

Con....48 +2
Lab....31  -4

A little bit too Vanilla so far is Sir Keir........Like Ed Miliband all over again.

And has as much chance of getting a landslide as Ed Miliband, too.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 05 May 2020, 10:22 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Polling literally doesn't matter at all right now.

Of course polls matter...They show whether the Public approves of the job Johnson is doing.....Whether Starmer is cutting through etc..

Just because Starmer is getting hammered and you don't like it....No reason to write one line asinine garbage...
Laugh Lockdown getting to you, TRUSS? Hug
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Post by Pr4wn on Tue 05 May 2020, 10:28 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Polling literally doesn't matter at all right now.

Of course polls matter...They show whether the Public approves of the job Johnson is doing.....Whether Starmer is cutting through etc..

Just because Starmer is getting hammered and you don't like it....No reason to write one line asinine garbage...

Blimey mate, not really much need for that is there?

And no, it doesn't matter really. Whether the public think Johnson is good or terrible isn't all that relevant right now. They're stuck with him for another four plus years.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 05 May 2020, 4:03 pm

Have to admire the Conservative PR machine....The little island known as the UK has a death toll way out of Kilter with other Countries....The Tories should have been destroyed over this Herd immunity crap...The lies over PPE...The deficiencies of kit for frontline personnel....Lack of testing...Care home disasters..blah blah blah..

But with schmaltzy stories of the Clown's demise...Well timed photo ops with PM's Wife and Baby thrown at every media outlet...added to an opposition leader that has gone Awol...(Pound shop Ed Miliband)

They are smelling of roses....Tories have a lead that equals a 200 majority....Scandalous really.....Because they have been a deadly shambles...


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Post by Soul Requiem on Tue 05 May 2020, 5:12 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Have to admire the Conservative PR machine....The little island known as the UK has a death toll way out of Kilter with other Countries....The Tories should have been destroyed over this Herd immunity crap...The lies over PPE...The deficiencies of kit for frontline personnel....Lack of testing...Care home disasters..blah blah blah..

But with schmaltzy stories of the Clown's demise...Well timed photo ops with PM's Wife and Baby thrown at every media outlet...added to an opposition leader that has gone Awol...(Pound shop Ed Miliband)

They are smelling of roses....Tories have a lead that equals a 200 majority....Scandalous really.....Because they have been a deadly shambles...


Could be that the majority disagree with that opinion perhaps.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 05 May 2020, 5:26 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Have to admire the Conservative PR machine....The little island known as the UK has a death toll way out of Kilter with other Countries....The Tories should have been destroyed over this Herd immunity crap...The lies over PPE...The deficiencies of kit for frontline personnel....Lack of testing...Care home disasters..blah blah blah..

But with schmaltzy stories of the Clown's demise...Well timed photo ops with PM's Wife and Baby thrown at every media outlet...added to an opposition leader that has gone Awol...(Pound shop Ed Miliband)

They are smelling of roses....Tories have a lead that equals a 200 majority....Scandalous really.....Because they have been a deadly shambles...


Could be that the majority disagree with that opinion perhaps.

I suppose if you can get blue collar workers to believe Brexit is a good thing you can get the same People to believe surpassing Italy in Corona deaths is a sign of competence...

Nothing surprises me anymore....Take care..

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 07 May 2020, 6:19 pm

Best PM rating....(Yougov)

Dec 2019..

Johnson 36%
Corbyn ...19%

May 2020

Johnson...46%
Starmer....22%

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 11 May 2020, 9:26 am

Blue collar 'expendable' workers can go back to work regardless of the risk so Tory donors can utilise their wealth creators......Nothing if not predictable..

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 11 May 2020, 4:01 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Blue collar 'expendable' workers can go back to work regardless of the risk so Tory donors can utilise their wealth creators......Nothing if not predictable..

They won't be creating much wealth if they are dead.

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Post by GSC on Wed 13 May 2020, 6:03 pm

Long way for Starmer and co to go but pretty drastic turnaround in PMQs standard
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Post by guildfordbat on Wed 13 May 2020, 6:51 pm

GSC wrote:Long way for Starmer and co to go but pretty drastic turnaround in PMQs standard

Bang on. Commented more on the Covid serious chat thread.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 15 May 2020, 3:59 pm

Yougov.....Is Boris doing a good job ???

Approve.....57% (+3)
Disapprove 35%..(-3)

The Village idiot has plenty of competition for the position these days it seems..


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Post by MrInvisible on Mon 18 May 2020, 11:10 pm

Anyone who thought the virus pandemic would see the government genuinely change its attitude towards key workers who happen to be foreign and on lower pay scales is in for a rude awakening...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/may/18/points-based-uk-immigration-bill-passed-by-parliament

Same old Nasty Party...

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 18 May 2020, 11:39 pm

You do know Labour were the first party to bring in a points-based immigration system, right?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7269790.stm

Though it wasn't very effective as the UK was still in the EU then.

When the UK is out of the EU, it can have a points-based system that applies equally across the board to EU and non-EU citizens. Which is good news.

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Post by Pr4wn on Tue 19 May 2020, 2:16 pm

Anyone else find it ironic that Priti Patel is calling anyone else "low-skilled"?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 20 May 2020, 1:17 pm

Boris Johnson approvals...Yougov..

Approve...50 (-7)
Disapp.....43 (+8)

Maybe this cowardly plank hiding away from daily press conferences added to his deathly incompetence is finally hitting home..

Hope so...

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Post by GSC on Tue 26 May 2020, 10:15 am

How to lose 20 approval points in 4 days
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 26 May 2020, 10:29 am

Remember when Gary Hart was caught having an affair in the 80s and he had to quit the WH race and we were left with the lame Dukakis...

Remember when I first came here and sizeable numbers of Tories were resigning over "Back to basics" when caught helping themselves to female company...

Now we have a guy surviving when he warned everybody they couldn't go to funerals or see sick relatives but he did as he pleased..(Admire anyone btw who can go on a 540 mile round trip without stopping on the way or filling up).....We have a serial cheat as PM in the UK and two sex fiends going for the Presidency in the US...

Looks like the most deplorable standards are acceptable these days especially with such a compliant and sycophantic press....

Integrity lies bleeding and the wound is fatal.......RIP rose

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 26 May 2020, 10:35 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Remember when Gary Hart was caught having an affair in the 80s and he had to quit the WH race and we were left with the lame Dukakis...

Remember when I first came here and sizeable numbers of Tories were resigning over "Back to basics" when caught helping themselves to female company...

Now we have a guy surviving when he warned everybody they couldn't go to funerals or see sick relatives but he did as he pleased..(Admire anyone btw who can go on a 540 mile round trip without stopping on the way or filling up).....We have a serial cheat as PM in the UK and two sex fiends going for the Presidency in the US...

Looks like the most deplorable standards are acceptable these days especially with such a compliant and sycophantic press....

Integrity lies bleeding and the wound is fatal.......RIP rose
The sex issues are of questionable relevance I think. There's no real proof (is there?) that sh@gging around makes someone less good at the day job. Suspect that pre-modern media, many of the famous leaders of the past were up to all sorts. Did that make them worse at their main role(s)? Questionable. It makes a good story though and people are always interested in sex.

Re. Cummings' behaviour though and Johnson's lies on Saturday re. additional trips while Cummings was in Durham, I think it's pretty despicable. Even the better Cabinet members have been drawn into defending the indefensible.
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Post by GSC on Tue 26 May 2020, 2:57 pm

I'd like to think the shared responsibility and compassion shown by most of the public will highlight the lack of that shown by those in charge
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Post by Duty281 on Tue 26 May 2020, 11:23 pm

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 44% (-4)
LAB: 38% (+5)

via @YouGov

You fool, Johnson. You've gone from 'early-years Blair' level of popularity, to 'Thatcher-during-the-poll-tax-riots' level of popularity in the space of three days.

Which is quite the achievement.

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Post by GSC on Tue 26 May 2020, 11:24 pm

He had a good reason to belittle his entire cabinet and lose most of the public though
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 27 May 2020, 3:26 am

An election is too far away to matter right now.

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Post by Samo on Wed 27 May 2020, 12:16 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Remember when Gary Hart was caught having an affair in the 80s and he had to quit the WH race and we were left with the lame Dukakis...

Remember when I first came here and sizeable numbers of Tories were resigning over "Back to basics" when caught helping themselves to female company...

Now we have a guy surviving when he warned everybody they couldn't go to funerals or see sick relatives but he did as he pleased..(Admire anyone btw who can go on a 540 mile round trip without stopping on the way or filling up).....We have a serial cheat as PM in the UK and two sex fiends going for the Presidency in the US...

Looks like the most deplorable standards are acceptable these days especially with such a compliant and sycophantic press....

Integrity lies bleeding and the wound is fatal.......RIP rose
The sex issues are of questionable relevance I think. There's no real proof (is there?) that sh@gging around makes someone less good at the day job. Suspect that pre-modern media, many of the famous leaders of the past were up to all sorts. Did that make them worse at their main role(s)? Questionable. It makes a good story though and people are always interested in sex.

Re. Cummings' behaviour though and Johnson's lies on Saturday re. additional trips while Cummings was in Durham, I think it's pretty despicable. Even the better Cabinet members have been drawn into defending the indefensible.

Kay Burley ripped Gove to bits yesterday. Its like shooting fish in a barrel right now. Long may it continue.

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 27 May 2020, 1:51 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:An election is too far away to matter right now.

True, true, plenty of time to rebuild.

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Post by GSC on Wed 27 May 2020, 2:50 pm

Probably, I would argue Boris will probably come to regret burning his margin on this when the looming recession hits and inquiries into the govs approach start
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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed 27 May 2020, 2:53 pm

Come five years time people will do what they always do after a recession and depending on how much tax they wish to pay. Sad as it is but the economic fallout will play a more pivotal part than the social side.

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Post by lostinwales Yesterday at 10:59 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Remember when Gary Hart was caught having an affair in the 80s and he had to quit the WH race and we were left with the lame Dukakis...

Remember when I first came here and sizeable numbers of Tories were resigning over "Back to basics" when caught helping themselves to female company...

Now we have a guy surviving when he warned everybody they couldn't go to funerals or see sick relatives but he did as he pleased..(Admire anyone btw who can go on a 540 mile round trip without stopping on the way or filling up).....We have a serial cheat as PM in the UK and two sex fiends going for the Presidency in the US...

Looks like the most deplorable standards are acceptable these days especially with such a compliant and sycophantic press....

Integrity lies bleeding and the wound is fatal.......RIP rose
The sex issues are of questionable relevance I think. There's no real proof (is there?) that sh@gging around makes someone less good at the day job. Suspect that pre-modern media, many of the famous leaders of the past were up to all sorts. Did that make them worse at their main role(s)? Questionable. It makes a good story though and people are always interested in sex.

Re. Cummings' behaviour though and Johnson's lies on Saturday re. additional trips while Cummings was in Durham, I think it's pretty despicable. Even the better Cabinet members have been drawn into defending the indefensible.

Sex thing really depends. At worst its usually just mildly amusing, but when it spills over into other areas it can raise questions. For instance I really don't care at all that Johnson was 'associating' with Acuri. I do care that there is reasonable evidence (or was before it all got deleted) that our money was spent on supporting her business as a result.

lostinwales

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Political round up............. - Page 8 Empty Re: Political round up.............

Post by Luckless Pedestrian Yesterday at 12:47 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:An election is too far away to matter right now.

It's true that in terms of seats and retaining power, they're quite safe. But as things stand, the transition period ends at the end of the year, with or without a deal. So much of Brexit depended / depends on trust, especially trust in those who evangelised for it. Millions of Brexit supporters will feel so betrayed by Johnson, by Gove, by the government as a whole over the Cummings affair, and they'd be forgiven for questioning the validity of any assurances they give from now on.

Brexit is done. We're no longer a member state. But surely it's a struggle to have confidence in this government to a good job of pretty much anything now.

Luckless Pedestrian

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