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Political round up.............

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 20 Dec 2019, 10:33 am

First topic message reminder :

Pr4wn wrote:Why are 16 and 17 year olds old enough to pay tax but not old enough to vote?

Good point, take them out of having to pay tax.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 03 Jun 2020, 7:08 pm

Boris is ahead in the polls (yougov 45-35) because he still has his coalition of Brexit working class voters in the North and the ever loyal Green belt gentry.......I notice Labour have moved from a 2nd referendum position to respecting the vote but it will take time to sink in I suspect..

The Northern insulated Working class areas that hate Johnny Foreigner don't trust Labour/Starmer on the EU yet......So it kind of makes any win at PMQs redundant..

For now..

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Post by MrInvisible on Thu 11 Jun 2020, 1:00 pm

On Brexit my understanding is that we only have until end of this month to arrange an extension to transition period with EU. The official government line is that we won't request a transition, despite trade talks not going well, so there is a real risk we crash out with no deal in midst of global depression at end of year.

Starmer's official position is still 'let's take the government at their word that they can get a deal', saying that a no deal is bad but not pushing for an extension themselves - is this smart tactical thinking or unnecessary caution? To be honest as impressed as I am with Starmer on holding the government to account on Covid-19 I was hoping to see him taking a more pro-active role on spelling out the implications more explicitly and leading the agenda a bit more on Brexit. Maybe he's playing a longer game though, and given the size of government majority they will take all the responsibility for this.

Meanwhile we do have a petition to request an extension, which tantalisingly close to the 100,000 threshold (over 98,000 signatures when I last checked!) triggering a debate in parliament: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300412?fbclid=IwAR3DQPSiaAuiBP7k4fm92fPIqZtB2heFEhjqEyNhzuFmkeoeZcBLB8_sgMA

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 12 Jun 2020, 12:30 pm

Michael Gove has today said that the moment for extension has passed, as he's formally confirmed to the EU Joint Committee that there will be no extension to the transition period.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Fri 12 Jun 2020, 5:53 pm

'Checks on EU goods coming into the UK will be phased in next year to give firms "time to adjust", as ministers formally ruled out extending the Brexit transition period beyond 31 December.

'But, in response, the EU said it would implement full checks on UK exports at the start of 2021.

'The BBC's Europe editor Katya Adler said the EU would not see the UK's move as a "concession but rather a pragmatic move by a country that's not ready to implement full checks by then".'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53018020

This is a key part of brinkmanship: you have to be ready, otherwise you're just making an ass of yourself.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 19 Jun 2020, 11:44 am

Labour Together's review of the 2019 GE makes very brutal reading if you're a Labour supporter, or a previous Labour supporter. Having read it, I think the key point was that (compared to 2017) Labour lost 1.7 million Leave voters and 1 million Remain voters - they did not pick a side on the Brexit issue, hoping to be all things to all people, and that was the result. Also according to their data, voters who identified as being of the centre were 47% likely to be lost by Labour; those who were slightly left of centre were 32% likely to be lost. You can't win an election if you alienate the centre.

Labour also appear to have been overly ambitious. After the 2017 GE loss, which they treated like a win, they went into the 2019 GE targeting 96 seats, 66 of which were not ones they currently held. So they threw resources into seats they had next to no chance of winning, including Johnson's seat of Uxbridge, leading to many Lab-held marginals being undefended and under resourced and were subsequently lost.

What was surprising to read was that 20% of BAME voters voted Tory, which I believe is an increase. If the BAME demographic switches away from Labour, that's another huge blow to their chances of re-election. This is recognised in the report that Labour cannot take the BAME vote for granted, as they may have done previously. Working class votes in Scotland were also gobbled up by the SNP, not a threat Labour had to deal with 30 years ago. Labour are now the third party in Scotland - no hope of a parliamentary majority if they can't pick up in that area. Interestingly, Labour only conducted one in-house poll of voters in Scotland between the end of the 2017 GE and the 2019 GE. Horrendous strategy. The one bright point for Labour is that voters tend to be less tribal nowadays, so highly volatile voter swings are possible.

Labour were also not ready for a GE, which sounds astonishing as any party of opposition should be on a permanent election footing. Labour were understaffed in key areas and received fewer donations than even the Lib Dems in the pre-election period. Going into the GE, Labour announced broadly popular policies (though some, like 'free' broadband and the Brexit policy were unpopular), but they were widely deemed to be unfeasible and unrealistic by the electorate. There were also too many policies, leaving a confused central message - compared to the Tories who had very clear and plain messaging. And of course, there was Jeremy Corbyn, a truly hopeless leader. His failures in 2017 were masked by May's slightly bigger failures. Targeting Corbyn was the easiest open goal for the Tories.

It was somewhat dispiriting to read about the workings of Labour's internal structure - rife with racism, bullying, misogyny, factionism and anti-semitism.  Clearly something Starmer will need to sort out.

The report also mentions that for Labour to win a majority of 1 at the next GE, they will need to increase their number of MPs by 60% - something no major party has ever done. The swing would need to include Rees Mogg's seat in NE Somerset, which underlines how far-fetched the idea is. Even worse for Labour, is that there are 58 seats that only need a small swing to the Tories to go from red to blue.

Overall, the report highlighted what a mess the Labour party is in. Splinter groups pulling in different directions, online campaigning tools not functioning properly, a not particularly diverse membership base, poor communication and co-ordination, internal racism, the desertion of key voter demographics, and lack of innovation and strategy in campaigning.

Good luck, Sir Kier Starmer.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 23 Jun 2020, 9:55 am

IFOP poll....

Macron 55%
Lepen...45%

The closest the Far right have been since the attempted coup in the 1930s..

Times they are-a changin.. Crying or Very sad


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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 23 Jun 2020, 10:50 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:IFOP poll....

Macron 55%
Lepen...45%

The closest the Far right have been since the attempted coup in the 1930s..

Times they are-a changin.. Crying or Very sad

Perhaps all this sort of thing goes to show that we had a somewhat enlightened period immediately following WWII. Maybe we're a little too far removed from that sort of conflict and stupidity is once more on show. Maybe the World needs it's head banging together w/ Hell's once again.
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Post by Duty281 on Tue 23 Jun 2020, 10:50 am

The National Rally's victory for the French Presidency (formerly National Front) is inevitable, if not in 2022, then in 2027. They've been getting closer and closer since 2007 and they got a third of the vote in the second round last time out.

Add in Macron's unpopularity to the equation, too. He was meant to be the great change that France needed, but has largely failed to deliver. So the French will turn to someone else to deliver change, just like the Brazillians and Americans did not too long ago.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 23 Jun 2020, 11:22 am

Yes when things go bad...Johnny immigrant gets a boot up the backside as the Burnley Banner shows..

However Trump pretty much won because Clinton was awful......Some polls even now have her neck and neck with Trump while a guy suffering from early Dementia has double digit leads..

Shouldn't be underestimated how unpopular the crooked Clinton was/is.....No friend of the Black Community as her Husband's record shows....Hence they stayed in.....They won't in November..

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 23 Jun 2020, 11:49 am

Duty281 wrote:The National Rally's victory for the French Presidency (formerly National Front) is inevitable, if not in 2022, then in 2027. They've been getting closer and closer since 2007 and they got a third of the vote in the second round last time out.

Add in Macron's unpopularity to the equation, too. He was meant to be the great change that France needed, but has largely failed to deliver. So the French will turn to someone else to deliver change, just like the Brazillians and Americans did not too long ago.
Despite the so-called 'Liberté, egalité, fraternité', they have, and have had, a nasty underbelly. Bit like the UK is showing as well.

Working well for Brazil and the U.S.A., don't you think?
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 23 Jun 2020, 4:59 pm

Seems to me Restaurants and Bars will have a hard enough time trying to stay economically viable without having to bother Patrons for their names and addresses...

I worry for the hard working owners and their underpaid staff already as I won't be venturing to use their amenities for a good while and I'm sure their will be plenty other likeminded types that will wait for either a 2nd wave or hopefully better times..

Fingers crossed..

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Post by Samo on Wed 24 Jun 2020, 1:00 pm

Starmer leaving Johnson for dead in PMQ's again.

BJ: "I wonder if the right honourable gentleman can name a single country in the world that has a functional contact tracing app?"

KS: "Germany."


KS: "Mr Speaker the figures I gave that the PM says are inadvertently misleading are the slide from his press conference yesterday."

Johnson simply cant content with Starmer without his braying mob behind him. This is like shooting fish in a barrel for Starmer, its just a shame PMQ's matters very little in the grand scheme of things.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 24 Jun 2020, 4:52 pm

Samo wrote:Starmer leaving Johnson for dead in PMQ's again.

BJ: "I wonder if the right honourable gentleman can name a single country in the world that has a functional contact tracing app?"

KS: "Germany."


KS: "Mr Speaker the figures I gave that the PM says are inadvertently misleading are the slide from his press conference yesterday."

Johnson simply cant content with Starmer without his braying mob behind him.  This is like shooting fish in a barrel for Starmer, its just a shame PMQ's matters very little in the grand scheme of things.
Hooray; Labour have someone approximating competent in PMQs. It's a long, long way from that to Government. PMQs is a pointless, childish load of tosh. Personally, I think one of the reasons for the public's contempt of politicians is the decision to broadcast what goes on in the Commons.
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Post by guildfordbat on Wed 24 Jun 2020, 5:17 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:Starmer leaving Johnson for dead in PMQ's again.

BJ: "I wonder if the right honourable gentleman can name a single country in the world that has a functional contact tracing app?"

KS: "Germany."


KS: "Mr Speaker the figures I gave that the PM says are inadvertently misleading are the slide from his press conference yesterday."

Johnson simply cant content with Starmer without his braying mob behind him.  This is like shooting fish in a barrel for Starmer, its just a shame PMQ's matters very little in the grand scheme of things.
Hooray; Labour have someone approximating competent in PMQs. It's a long, long way from that to Government. PMQs is a pointless, childish load of tosh. Personally, I think one of the reasons for the public's contempt of politicians is the decision to broadcast what goes on in the Commons.

Possibly although I feel so many of the current Cabinet being smug, incompetent, evasive and dishonest at the daily Coronavirus briefings has more to do with it.

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Post by superflyweight on Thu 25 Jun 2020, 9:21 am

PMQ's has been pointless at times in the past, but at the moment when you have an opposition leader who is better able than previous leaders and the press to actually hold the government to account and to scrutinise their behaviour, it has become pretty vital.  Particularly as we have a PM who will blatantly lie in order to try to avoid scrutiny.

Johnson was exposed badly yesterday.

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Post by guildfordbat on Thu 25 Jun 2020, 11:06 am

superflyweight wrote:PMQ's has been pointless at times in the past, but at the moment when you have an opposition leader who is better able than previous leaders and the press to actually hold the government to account and to scrutinise their behaviour, it has become pretty vital.  Particularly as we have a PM who will blatantly lie in order to try to avoid scrutiny.

Johnson was exposed badly yesterday.

Yes, he was although it's not been as widely highlighted as it should have been.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 25 Jun 2020, 12:13 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:Starmer leaving Johnson for dead in PMQ's again.

BJ: "I wonder if the right honourable gentleman can name a single country in the world that has a functional contact tracing app?"

KS: "Germany."


KS: "Mr Speaker the figures I gave that the PM says are inadvertently misleading are the slide from his press conference yesterday."

Johnson simply cant content with Starmer without his braying mob behind him.  This is like shooting fish in a barrel for Starmer, its just a shame PMQ's matters very little in the grand scheme of things.
Hooray; Labour have someone approximating competent in PMQs. It's a long, long way from that to Government. PMQs is a pointless, childish load of tosh. Personally, I think one of the reasons for the public's contempt of politicians is the decision to broadcast what goes on in the Commons.

Possibly although I feel so many of the current Cabinet being smug, incompetent, evasive and dishonest at the daily Coronavirus briefings has more to do with it.
Not sure I agree, although some of them have been poor. Just one small piece in the jigsaw of why people don't pay much attention to, or respect, politicians anymore.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 25 Jun 2020, 12:15 pm

superflyweight wrote:PMQ's has been pointless at times in the past, but at the moment when you have an opposition leader who is better able than previous leaders and the press to actually hold the government to account and to scrutinise their behaviour, it has become pretty vital.  Particularly as we have a PM who will blatantly lie in order to try to avoid scrutiny.

Johnson was exposed badly yesterday.
🤷 Didn't see it, but even if I had, I don't know that I would have taken Starmer's word, or his interpretation of any numbers, at face value. They all lie, obfuscate, spin etc.
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Post by superflyweight on Thu 25 Jun 2020, 12:49 pm

He was relaying the government's own words back to them. There was nothing to lie or spin about it - it was hard facts

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Post by Soul Requiem on Thu 25 Jun 2020, 1:03 pm

Aside from using ONS estimate numbers instead of those who had actually tested positive.

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Post by superflyweight on Thu 25 Jun 2020, 1:40 pm

He used the word "estimated". He wasn't claiming that the figures were anything other than what they are.

It's not like he made them up off the top of his head - they came from the ONS.

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Post by Pr4wn on Thu 25 Jun 2020, 2:52 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
superflyweight wrote:PMQ's has been pointless at times in the past, but at the moment when you have an opposition leader who is better able than previous leaders and the press to actually hold the government to account and to scrutinise their behaviour, it has become pretty vital.  Particularly as we have a PM who will blatantly lie in order to try to avoid scrutiny.

Johnson was exposed badly yesterday.
🤷 Didn't see it, but even if I had, I don't know that I would have taken Starmer's word, or his interpretation of any numbers, at face value. They all lie, obfuscate, spin etc.

What a thoroughly depressing and completely uninformed view.

The guy is a former director of public prosecutions. He deals in facts. That's what Johnson can't handle.

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Post by Pr4wn on Thu 25 Jun 2020, 2:54 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Aside from using ONS estimate numbers instead of those who had actually tested positive.

Laugh Laugh Laugh

He literally used the word "estimated". Sad I haven't seen you in a while, SR. Please don't wait so long before posting again.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Thu 25 Jun 2020, 3:01 pm

That absolves him from a deliberate manipulation doesn't it, you've shown me the light again.

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Post by Pr4wn on Thu 25 Jun 2020, 3:21 pm

How is it a deliberate manipulation if he literally used the word "estimated"?

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Post by Soul Requiem on Thu 25 Jun 2020, 3:23 pm

Pr4wn wrote:How is it a deliberate manipulation if he literally used the word "estimated"?

So he deals in facts apart from when he deals in estimates?

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Post by Pr4wn on Thu 25 Jun 2020, 3:26 pm

If he's quoting an estimate, he calls it an estimate. I really don't understand what the issue is here.

Nice try, though. You'll make something stick eventually, kid.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 25 Jun 2020, 3:27 pm

Pr4wn wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
superflyweight wrote:PMQ's has been pointless at times in the past, but at the moment when you have an opposition leader who is better able than previous leaders and the press to actually hold the government to account and to scrutinise their behaviour, it has become pretty vital.  Particularly as we have a PM who will blatantly lie in order to try to avoid scrutiny.

Johnson was exposed badly yesterday.
🤷 Didn't see it, but even if I had, I don't know that I would have taken Starmer's word, or his interpretation of any numbers, at face value. They all lie, obfuscate, spin etc.

What a thoroughly depressing and completely uninformed view.

The guy is a former director of public prosecutions. He deals in facts. That's what Johnson can't handle.
With respect, he was the DPP. He chose to become a politician. I'll say it again - they all lie, obfuscate and spin. Time may tell and Starmer may be a breath of fresh air. I'll watch how he gets on, but woe betide him if he's caught spinning, lying etc. Just the facts....
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Post by Pr4wn on Thu 25 Jun 2020, 3:48 pm

Ha, yup. He's basically a very well-paid secretary.

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Post by Duty281 on Thu 25 Jun 2020, 6:05 pm

Anyone who thinks Kier Starmer will deal solely in facts is misguided. He's a politician and will lie, spin and deal in half-truths like the rest of them. His previous career of being a barrister is another one where truth is optional, and morals are dubious.

The big news of the day, politically, is RLB getting the sack. Early marker laid down by Kier Starmer, just before the release of the report by the EHRC.

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Post by superflyweight on Thu 25 Jun 2020, 7:11 pm

Duty281 wrote:Anyone who thinks Kier Starmer will deal solely in facts is misguided. He's a politician and will lie, spin and deal in half-truths like the rest of them. His previous career of being a barrister is another one where truth is optional, and morals are dubious.

The big news of the day, politically, is RLB getting the sack. Early marker laid down by Kier Starmer, just before the release of the report by the EHRC.

No one said he would deal solely in facts.  It was a specific reference to yesterday’s PMQ’s.

Nice try to spin it that way though.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sat 27 Jun 2020, 7:25 am

Samo wrote:Starmer leaving Johnson for dead in PMQ's again.

BJ: "I wonder if the right honourable gentleman can name a single country in the world that has a functional contact tracing app?"

KS: "Germany."


KS: "Mr Speaker the figures I gave that the PM says are inadvertently misleading are the slide from his press conference yesterday."

Johnson simply cant content with Starmer without his braying mob behind him.  This is like shooting fish in a barrel for Starmer, its just a shame PMQ's matters very little in the grand scheme of things.

Starmer didn't have to sack Bailey....Nothing Anti semetic in the article and she only said how much she admired Maxine Peake..Who I admire too.. Just a factional sacking.

He's obviously going to use certain forms of Racism as a PR exercise to enforce his Blairite agenda...He didn't seem concerned about censoring colleagues that were racist towards Abbott in emails until his hand was forced by a lawsuit and Muslims taking crap isn't of interest either it seems.

..Then again most BAME voters live in safe seats....

Following the Blair blueprint however is folly...Times have changed..

Blair had 50 seats in Scotland...Now the Scots can vote for an insurgent SNP if Labour goes Tory-lite...This narrative that the Left can be taken for granted is old hat.

Starmer is polling worse than Corbyn in Scotland .. He isn't winning a GE without taking a majority of seats there.

Starmer is also as dull as dish water....History suggests Charismatic leaders do better...

Johnson....Cameron....Blair....Major....Wilson...

Trump....Obama...Bush...Clinton..Reagan...Johnson...Truman...Roosevelt were all more interesting than their opponents..


Wish RLB all the best...Sacrificed to curry favour with the Board of Deputies who will never be satisfied.... After all it doesn't seem of interest when Tories are Anti Semetic..

There never was an AS problem in Labour.. It was used to stop a Left wing Govt from shaking up the Establishment....200 allegations of AS out of 500,000 members.....To scale that means if there are 20 thugs at Old Trafford that means the entire fans are all hooligans

Corbyn has his left wing Jewish supporters like Michael Rosen.. Andrew Feinstein that have called out this disgusting witch hunt out...

Unfortunately some People think chucking Racism allegations around at innocent People is Politics..

Very sad pitiful people that can find it so easy tarnishing good People so readily..

Voted Labour since I was allowed....Won't be voting for them next time..

May even vote Tory..

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 27 Jun 2020, 10:29 am

Does this mean, Truss, that you've now worked out that Starmer isn't going to win a landslide, as you originally said?

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Post by Galted on Sat 27 Jun 2020, 10:51 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Starmer is also as dull as dish water....History suggests Charismatic leaders do better...

Johnson....Cameron....Blair....Major....Wilson...

Trump....Obama...Bush...Clinton..Reagan...Johnson...Truman...Roosevelt were all more interesting than their opponents..


Lol, there's nothing on earth less interesting than Major.
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Post by guildfordbat on Sat 27 Jun 2020, 11:06 am

Galted wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Starmer is also as dull as dish water....History suggests Charismatic leaders do better...

Johnson....Cameron....Blair....Major....Wilson...

Trump....Obama...Bush...Clinton..Reagan...Johnson...Truman...Roosevelt were all more interesting than their opponents..


Lol, there's nothing on earth less interesting than Major.

Galted just beat me to it. Spitting Image hit the nail on the head portraying Major as a grey man living on a diet of peas!

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Post by navyblueshorts on Sat 27 Jun 2020, 5:22 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
Galted wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Starmer is also as dull as dish water....History suggests Charismatic leaders do better...

Johnson....Cameron....Blair....Major....Wilson...

Trump....Obama...Bush...Clinton..Reagan...Johnson...Truman...Roosevelt were all more interesting than their opponents..


Lol, there's nothing on earth less interesting than Major.

Galted just beat me to it. Spitting Image hit the nail on the head portraying Major as a grey man living on a diet of peas!
Edwina must have thought he had some charisma...
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Post by Duty281 on Sat 27 Jun 2020, 5:35 pm

Galted wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Starmer is also as dull as dish water....History suggests Charismatic leaders do better...

Johnson....Cameron....Blair....Major....Wilson...

Trump....Obama...Bush...Clinton..Reagan...Johnson...Truman...Roosevelt were all more interesting than their opponents..


Lol, there's nothing on earth less interesting than Major.

It's between the two Johns - Major and Motson - for the dullest autobiography I've ever read.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Sat 27 Jun 2020, 6:46 pm

I quite liked Major myself, unfortunate to be sandwiched between two political behemoths in Thatcher and Blair.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 28 Jun 2020, 8:59 am

Major was more interesting than windbag Kinnock..

That's all that mattered ..

Carter is probably the only President.. Since WW2 to beat a more charismatic opponent....The energy crisis hurt Ford and the fallout of the Nixon pardon..

Perhaps only Attlee and Heath here....Both helped I imagine by rebuilding from the War in Attlee's case and the devaluing chaos of 60s Labour in Heath's..

Attlee didn't have an SNP problem back then...Great PM..

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Post by MrInvisible on Sun 28 Jun 2020, 9:51 pm

I actually think that whilst charisma can help politicians go a long way (look at how far it's propelled Johnson and Farage) I don't think it's the be all and end all. Looking prime ministerial is important though, and whether we like these people or not (and they benefited from friends in the media looking after them), the only leaders of opposition who genuinely looked prime ministerial in past 30 years were Blair and Cameron.

It's v early days but Starmer does appear to have the gravitas - the status as public prosecutor, and a knighted one at that, to look prime ministerial. Anecodate alert - my parents next-door neighbour, a dyed in the wool Daily Mail reading Conservative senior citizen is appalled with government's handling of the crisis, and is impressed with Starmer. I've also mentioned this earlier - I think the timing of Starmer's beginning of tenure of leadership, at beginning of the crisis works in his favour. He has been able to grow into the role on his own terms, without being attacked/lampooned mercilessly from day 1 like Miliband and Corbyn were.

A few words on Major - his premiership was derailed by ERM fall out, the Tory European rebels (who inspired the Euro-scepticism which took hold of the party later) and the tabloids gunning for him and his cabinet over 'Back to Basics', but compared to the wretched governments of May and Johnson, he looks positively statesmanlike, especially on the world stage. I will always give Major credit for his role in Northern Ireland peace talks and despite the many mistakes of his government, looking vaguely competent and genuinely trying to be a One Nation Tory.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 29 Jun 2020, 10:24 am

Shadow Welsh Secretary..."Anyone who doesn't think RLB should have been sacked is an Antisemite"

Deary me where does it end ??......Going to be like the Invasion of the bodysnatchers with these people soon.. Rolling Eyes

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Post by lostinwales on Tue 30 Jun 2020, 11:27 am

Well it did seem a good excuse to sack RLB. On the face of it it was just a 'like' but I have seen a more detailed breakdown of what RLB did wrong and to be brutally honest she should have been much much more careful about being involved with anything like this given the current issues.

It has really upset the left wing of the party. I can't say that is a bad thing. Starmer is not going to be all things to all people. He is, after all, no Corbyn-like faultless messiah. But boring with intelligence and attention to detail are the kinds of traits we need in a leader like never before.

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Post by lostinwales on Tue 30 Jun 2020, 11:32 am

MrInvisible wrote:I actually think that whilst charisma can help politicians go a long way (look at how far it's propelled Johnson and Farage) I don't think it's the be all and end all.  Looking prime ministerial is important though, and whether we like these people or not (and they benefited from friends in the media looking after them), the only leaders of opposition who genuinely looked prime ministerial in past 30 years were Blair and Cameron.  

It's v early days but Starmer does appear to have the gravitas - the status as public prosecutor, and a knighted one at that, to look prime ministerial.  Anecodate alert - my parents next-door neighbour, a dyed in the wool Daily Mail reading Conservative senior citizen is appalled with government's handling of the crisis, and is impressed with Starmer.  I've also mentioned this earlier - I think the timing of Starmer's beginning of tenure of leadership, at beginning of the crisis works in his favour.  He has been able to grow into the role on his own terms, without being attacked/lampooned mercilessly from day 1 like Miliband and Corbyn were.    

A few words on Major - his premiership was derailed by ERM fall out, the Tory European rebels (who inspired the Euro-scepticism which took hold of the party later) and the tabloids gunning for him and his cabinet over 'Back to Basics', but compared to the wretched governments of May and Johnson, he looks positively statesmanlike, especially on the world stage.  I will always give Major credit for his role in Northern Ireland peace talks and despite the many mistakes of his government, looking vaguely competent and genuinely trying to be a One Nation Tory.

I say this frequently. Both Major and Brown came into power in governments that run their course and were already collapsing under their own weight. Both of them were quieter and more thoughtful than their predecessors, and both will be looked on more kindly by history than they were at the time of their occupation of no.10.

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 30 Jun 2020, 2:11 pm

Good to see Kier Starmer publicly oppose BLMUK's aim of abolishing the police. It increases awareness of the hard-left nature of BLMUK. It's a subject that you'd perhaps expect the leader of the Labour Party to shy away from, as in doing so he has drawn the ire of some of his MPs and doubtless some of the membership, so fair play to him.

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Tue 30 Jun 2020, 4:12 pm

Hopefully the general public are sensible not to equate any hard-left BLMUK aims with the overall BLM movement that is currently underway across the entire political and social spectrum.

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Post by Samo on Tue 30 Jun 2020, 4:16 pm

Never understood why there are some who believe in either the defunding of or total abolition of the police. If anything the police need more investment for things like better training, more officers on the street and better emotional and psychological support.

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Post by superflyweight on Tue 30 Jun 2020, 4:31 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:Hopefully the general public are sensible not to equate any hard-left BLMUK aims with the overall BLM movement that is currently underway across the entire political and social spectrum.

Indeed. It would be a shame if Duty (and other Brexit supporters) were to be guilty by association because his hero Farage is increasingly using far right media outlets to peddle anti-semitic conspiracy theories.

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 01 Jul 2020, 10:03 am

Samo wrote:Never understood why there are some who believe in either the defunding of or total abolition of the police.  If anything the police need more investment for things like better training, more officers on the street and better emotional and psychological support.

There are always areas where the police can improve - and race is a difficult area, as is weeding out the inevitable nutters - but the fundamental way in which police operate in this country currently (who knows what the future holds) is completely different than in the USA. Our police operate with the consent of the public, are trained longer and harder than in the USA and don't normally carry guns. They are a service instead of an occupying force.

I get why they want to defund some forces in the USA - it is one of the very few levers they have over forces which in some cases are, unfortunately and literally, a law unto themselves. Reading how elected chiefs of police have tried but been unable to create change in their departments, not least because of entrenched police unions, is very depressing.

Our government has over recent years cut numbers and cut police stations. You stress a service it doesn't perform as well.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 01 Jul 2020, 10:22 am

Starmer's contempt of the left and BAME members is working on the assumption like Biden that these People have no where to go...It's a risky Street to drive up..Ask Hillary..

A black member of the NEC asked him to apologise yesterday to BLM.

No doubts he is taking advice from Blair but in Blair's day the left didn't have anywhere to go....If the SNP had the seats they have now in 2005 Blair would have lost his majority.. Worth remembering.

Big chance for Lib Dems to choose Layla Moran over Davey...She isn't linked to the coalition.. Chance for them to move left to where the last decent leader Kennedy was...Often forgotten by a Neo Lib Media that the Lib Dems got more seats under Kennedy than Clegg....Admired Kennedy he seemed old school.. Sad he succumbed to alcoholism.

Looks like Davey will win though..

SNP will be Starmer's big problem.. Sturgeon for all her failings isn't a humourless stiff and I expect Johnson to leave before GE24...Perhaps for Sunak..

Have a feeling Starmer will not be wanting to throw away any voting bloc..

Though I do see Labour being the largest Party if not in the majority..

But with 30 or so Lefty Mps in Parliament  how much he could implement a Centrist utopia is open to argument.

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 01 Jul 2020, 11:43 am

I think that should be rearranged to say

'Starmer's attempts to connect with reality treated as contempt by the left and BAME members

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