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Political round up.............

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 20 Dec 2019, 10:33 am

First topic message reminder :

Pr4wn wrote:Why are 16 and 17 year olds old enough to pay tax but not old enough to vote?

Good point, take them out of having to pay tax.

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Thu 19 Nov 2020, 3:01 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Takes a strange Anti Semitic Party and leader to improve measures to kick out Anti Semites which the EHRC acknowledged...

As I'm the only one who has viewed the EHRC conclusions it's pointless engaging with grown Men who think the media is fair and balanced.

The Moon isn't made of cheese either.. Sorry to tell you.

Moving on..


I looked at it when it came out, but obviously didn't memorise it. Having looked at it again, it does say -
"We have identified serious failings in leadership during the period the investigation looked at, and an inadequate process for handling antisemitism
complaints across the Labour Party.
While there have been some improvements in how the Labour Party deals with antisemitism complaints, our analysis points to a culture within the Party which, at best, did not do enough to prevent antisemitism and, at worst, could be seen to accept it."

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 19 Nov 2020, 3:05 pm

Test and trace debacle.
Disabled denied benefits in a pandemic.
Care home travesty.
1 in 7 Businesses worried about staying alive.
Record unemployment...
Record debt.
Record Homeless.
At least 20k avoidable deaths...
Free School meal debacle...
2nd lockdown debacle..
PPE Back-hander disgrace.
University Student debacle...
A PM with shocking approvals..
Dominic Cummings..

The Tories would win a GE according to the polls...

Come on Andy Burnham start a new Party...

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Post by Soul Requiem on Thu 19 Nov 2020, 3:07 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Takes a strange Anti Semitic Party and leader to improve measures to kick out Anti Semites which the EHRC acknowledged...

As I'm the only one who has viewed the EHRC conclusions it's pointless engaging with grown Men who think the media is fair and balanced.

The Moon isn't made of cheese either.. Sorry to tell you.

Moving on..


I looked at it when it came out, but obviously didn't memorise it. Having looked at it again, it does say -
"We have identified serious failings in leadership during the period the investigation looked at, and an inadequate process for handling antisemitism
complaints across the Labour Party.
While there have been some improvements in how the Labour Party deals with antisemitism complaints, our analysis points to a culture within the Party which, at best, did not do enough to prevent antisemitism and, at worst, could be seen to accept it."

What they actually meant to say was the complete opposite. Can you stop getting your information from the Daily Mail, a paper I know you're a strong supporter of JHM.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 19 Nov 2020, 3:08 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Takes a strange Anti Semitic Party and leader to improve measures to kick out Anti Semites which the EHRC acknowledged...

As I'm the only one who has viewed the EHRC conclusions it's pointless engaging with grown Men who think the media is fair and balanced.

The Moon isn't made of cheese either.. Sorry to tell you.

Moving on..

No amount of you ignoring reality is going to gloss over the fact that Corbyn's leadership on this issue was pitiful. Why don't you just accept it? Go on; once you've done it it'll become a lot easier to move on OK.
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Post by superflyweight on Thu 19 Nov 2020, 3:08 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Test and trace debacle.
Disabled denied benefits in a pandemic.
Care home travesty.
1 in 7 Businesses worried about staying alive.
Record unemployment...
Record debt.
Record Homeless.
At least 20k avoidable deaths...
Free School meal debacle...
2nd lockdown debacle..
PPE Back-hander disgrace.
University Student debacle...
A PM with shocking approvals..
Dominic Cummings..

The Tories would win a GE according to the polls...

Come on Andy Burnham start a new Party...

Have you ever considered that it might be the Electorate that is the problem.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 19 Nov 2020, 3:10 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Test and trace debacle.
Disabled denied benefits in a pandemic.
Care home travesty.
1 in 7 Businesses worried about staying alive.
Record unemployment...
Record debt.
Record Homeless.
At least 20k avoidable deaths...
Free School meal debacle...
2nd lockdown debacle..
PPE Back-hander disgrace.
University Student debacle...
A PM with shocking approvals..
Dominic Cummings..

The Tories would win a GE according to the polls...

Come on Andy Burnham start a new Party...
Coz that would work, wouldn't it? All it would do is split the left's vote. Until and unless we get whole-scale electoral change (PR etc), we're stuck w/ the scheisse that is the UK political system.
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Post by lostinwales on Thu 19 Nov 2020, 3:52 pm

There are a fair few high quality ex MP's that left Labour because of Corbyn (and AS). Be very happy to see some of them come back in at the expense of those who would follow Corbyn into exile.

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Post by Duty281 on Thu 19 Nov 2020, 5:13 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Test and trace debacle.
Disabled denied benefits in a pandemic.
Care home travesty.
1 in 7 Businesses worried about staying alive.
Record unemployment...
Record debt.
Record Homeless.
At least 20k avoidable deaths...
Free School meal debacle...
2nd lockdown debacle..
PPE Back-hander disgrace.
University Student debacle...
A PM with shocking approvals..
Dominic Cummings..

The Tories would win a GE according to the polls...

Come on Andy Burnham start a new Party...
Coz that would work, wouldn't it? All it would do is split the left's vote. Until and unless we get whole-scale electoral change (PR etc), we're stuck w/ the scheisse that is the UK political system.

Yes and Burnham's hardly likely to start a new party after the debacle that was Change UK last year.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sat 21 Nov 2020, 10:42 am

Clackmanshire by election.

Con 51% +10
SNP 32% +2
Lab..8%..-12

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sat 21 Nov 2020, 10:49 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Test and trace debacle.
Disabled denied benefits in a pandemic.
Care home travesty.
1 in 7 Businesses worried about staying alive.
Record unemployment...
Record debt.
Record Homeless.
At least 20k avoidable deaths...
Free School meal debacle...
2nd lockdown debacle..
PPE Back-hander disgrace.
University Student debacle...
A PM with shocking approvals..
Dominic Cummings..

The Tories would win a GE according to the polls...

Come on Andy Burnham start a new Party...
Coz that would work, wouldn't it? All it would do is split the left's vote. Until and unless we get whole-scale electoral change (PR etc), we're stuck w/ the scheisse that is the UK political system.

Keir Starmer isn't my idea of left sweetie....Personally I believe if you keep voting for the lesser of two evils all the time then no real change will ever happen.

If Starmer wants Unity why kick out a guy that got 40% in 2017 for no reason.

Every time he is asked what rule Corbyn broke he goes quiet.

That is six lines for you...More than your level of debate deserves.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Sat 21 Nov 2020, 11:16 am

So Labour should bring back Tony Blair then? He did after all win three elections.

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Post by lostinwales on Sat 21 Nov 2020, 11:41 am

Blair did his time. Being in power for too long is always dangerous and govenments get tired.

But he's a very smart guy and, particularly in his first government, surrounded himself with very smart people. They didn't have monochrome views either. They got things done.

Corbyn is the complete opposite. Good intentions are great but he had no abilities and morons around him. You only have to look at our current government to see what happens when you have a weak leader and a bunch of idealistic sychophants in the cabinet.

Starmer isn't perfect, but he's another very talented and smart guy. He also has some smart people around him. He's still, for now, the best hope we have.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Sat 21 Nov 2020, 1:45 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Test and trace debacle.
Disabled denied benefits in a pandemic.
Care home travesty.
1 in 7 Businesses worried about staying alive.
Record unemployment...
Record debt.
Record Homeless.
At least 20k avoidable deaths...
Free School meal debacle...
2nd lockdown debacle..
PPE Back-hander disgrace.
University Student debacle...
A PM with shocking approvals..
Dominic Cummings..

The Tories would win a GE according to the polls...

Come on Andy Burnham start a new Party...
Coz that would work, wouldn't it? All it would do is split the left's vote. Until and unless we get whole-scale electoral change (PR etc), we're stuck w/ the scheisse that is the UK political system.

Keir Starmer isn't my idea of left sweetie....Personally I believe if you keep voting for the lesser of two evils all the time then no real change will ever happen.

If Starmer wants Unity why kick out a guy that got 40% in 2017 for no reason.

Every time he is asked what rule Corbyn broke he goes quiet.

That is six lines for you...More than your level of debate deserves.
It's four lines actually - count 'em. Oh, and grow the **** up.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sat 21 Nov 2020, 10:30 pm

Opinium...

Con 41 +3
Lab 38 -4

Deary me..

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Post by Pr4wn on Mon 23 Nov 2020, 8:37 am

So I really don't like the way this thread is going. There's a crazy amount of passive aggressive BS going on from multiple people and it stops now. Cheers.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 23 Nov 2020, 3:19 pm

Shadow Chancellor Annaliese Dodds "Our considered opinion is that Tax policy should be more progressive as a whole and we will add more details in the run up to the next Election"

Well that's only four years away.......Genius.

No policies.....No ideas.....Just a war against a faction of the Party whose votes they will need to win an Election.....Corbyn got 10m votes and had an approval of 26% in 2019 (13m in 2017)....Half of which are true believers (Really like in polls)....

Not feasible to expect to abuse a sizeable minority regularly and expect (like they do) they will vote for you as the least worst option. Look at Hillary in 2016, lost because people stayed home.

I won't be voting for Starmer and I didn't rate Corbyn..

Best PM (Opinium)..

Boris Johnson 31 =
Keir Starmer...30 -3

Can't even beat this lame duck who will be gone next year.

Let Corbyn back in...Sideline him for sure and take on the Tories....This situation is remediable. Stop being scared of Margaret Hodge.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Mon 23 Nov 2020, 3:26 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Shadow Chancellor Annaliese Dodds "Our considered opinion is that Tax policy should be more progressive as a whole and we will add more details in the run up to the next Election"

Well that's only four years away.......Genius.

No policies.....No ideas.....Just a war against a faction of the Party whose votes they will need to win an Election.....Corbyn got 10m votes and had an approval of 26% in 2019 (13m in 2017)....Half of which are true believers (Really like in polls)....

Not feasible to expect to abuse a sizeable minority regularly and expect (like they do) they will vote for you as the least worst option.  Look at Hillary in 2016, lost because people stayed home.

I won't be voting for Starmer and I didn't rate Corbyn..

Best PM (Opinium)..

Boris Johnson 31 =
Keir Starmer...30 -3

Can't even beat this lame duck who will be gone next year.

Let Corbyn back in...Sideline him for sure and take on the Tories....This situation is remediable.  Stop being scared of Margaret Hodge.

You're getting there slowly.

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Post by superflyweight on Mon 23 Nov 2020, 4:04 pm

Why would any party in opposition in the current climate come out with any serious policy or spending plans?

Positive policy change usually involves spending significant money and if Starmer was to annouce that kind of policy then he gives the Tories an easy target that Labour are going to be irresponsible during what will be a massive recession and/or that Labour will implement tax increases - both of which will stick because it reinforces accusations that have been lobbed at Labour forever and increasingly so during the Corbyn era.

These are unpredented times and people likely want to see a return to normal before they start thinking about policital change. Given the political and economic upheaval and the fact that we are all election/referendum weary, people are also less likely to respond to a poll by saying that they want any kind of change.


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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 26 Nov 2020, 3:36 pm

'Question Time' has fallen to a record low of 0.7 million viewers...

Don't watch the show but like its Sister 'Newsnight' also struggling more and more people are turning to Social media for their Politics and News...With Covid seeing The Guardian and other sheets shedding staff I think we are seeing the slow demise of Establishment propaganda...

Can only be a good thing with the standard of Journalism on both sides of the pond.

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Post by Duty281 on Thu 26 Nov 2020, 3:59 pm

BBC's impartiality score at a record low with OFCOM, too.

Hopefully the end of the BBC and the awful licence fee isn't far away.

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Thu 26 Nov 2020, 4:06 pm

Don't think everyone getting their news from social media will be good for society.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 26 Nov 2020, 4:07 pm

Absolutely not.

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Post by dummy_half on Thu 26 Nov 2020, 4:19 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:Don't think everyone getting their news from social media will be good for society.

Just look at what is going on in the US for the dangers of getting your 'news' from biased sources - algorithms based on what you like (or at least what other links you click on and what your social media friends like) is going to be this writ large.

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Post by Duty281 on Thu 26 Nov 2020, 4:30 pm

Social media news is little different to mainstream media news - politically biased with lies and half-truths in rich supply. Echo chambers on social media are not that different from the echo chambers that exist in mainstream media.

It's always up to the individual to check what they read and hear, whether they're getting it from the Telegraph, CNN or some blogger on Twitter.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 26 Nov 2020, 4:30 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:'Question Time' has fallen to a record low of 0.7 million viewers...

Don't watch the show but like its Sister 'Newsnight' also struggling more and more people are turning to Social media for their Politics and News...With Covid seeing The Guardian and other sheets shedding staff I think we are seeing the slow demise of Establishment propaganda...

Can only be a good thing with the standard of Journalism on both sides of the pond.
Nonsense. If you think the rise of social media (in its extant forms) as a source of 'news' w/ a concomitant loss of the more mainstream sources is a plus point, I think know you're misguided.
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Post by JuliusHMarx on Thu 26 Nov 2020, 4:43 pm

Duty281 wrote:
It's always up to the individual to check what they read and hear, whether they're getting it from the Telegraph, CNN or some blogger on Twitter.

Precisely why society is rapidly going downhill. Too many people willing to believe proven lies and proven liars.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 26 Nov 2020, 5:16 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
It's always up to the individual to check what they read and hear, whether they're getting it from the Telegraph, CNN or some blogger on Twitter.

Precisely why society is rapidly going downhill. Too many people willing to believe proven lies and proven liars.
'Twas ever thus. Thought we were becoming more enlightened.
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Post by lostinwales on Thu 26 Nov 2020, 5:22 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
It's always up to the individual to check what they read and hear, whether they're getting it from the Telegraph, CNN or some blogger on Twitter.

Precisely why society is rapidly going downhill. Too many people willing to believe proven lies and proven liars.
'Twas ever thus. Thought we were becoming more enlightened.

The unfortunate side effect of social media and the way in which it helps us find 'our tribe' is that it helps everyone else find their tribe too, and there are some pretty insane tribes out there.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 26 Nov 2020, 8:07 pm

Survation....Labour member poll..

Keir Starmer...
App 60
Dis..34
(After 6 months Corbyn was 80% approve)

Is Labour heading in the right direction ??
Yes 56%
No..40%

Breakdown...
Over 40k a year..
Yes..65%
No...30%

Under 20k
No...55%
Yes..40%

Should Corbyn be reinstated ??
Yes 48%
No..46%

Ed Miliband on 78% is the most popular Labour Shadow Cabinet member..

For a Leader on his Honeymoon period these aren't great numbers...

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Post by lostinwales on Thu 26 Nov 2020, 10:44 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Survation....Labour member poll..

Keir Starmer...
App 60
Dis..34
(After 6 months Corbyn was 80% approve)

Is Labour heading in the right direction ??
Yes 56%
No..40%

Breakdown...
Over 40k a year..
Yes..65%
No...30%

Under 20k
No...55%
Yes..40%

Should Corbyn be reinstated ??
Yes 48%
No..46%

Ed Miliband on 78% is the most popular Labour Shadow Cabinet member..

For a Leader on his Honeymoon period these aren't great numbers...

Given the factionalism inside Labour and the way in which momentum prioritised getting power inside the party the figures were never going to be great. But they are on the back foot for now. Take the ridiculous NEC walkout stunt (they were not going to win so chose to flounce instead, because, headlines I guess).

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Post by GSC on Fri 27 Nov 2020, 9:23 am

The secret to winning the election all along was to reinstate a man who lost every election he contested as leader of the party.

Labour will be much healthier overall to be shot of the toxic cult of personality regardless of how they respond to a poll years out from an election. Maybe if Labour stopped indulging their tantrums they could focus on the government.
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Post by superflyweight on Fri 27 Nov 2020, 9:37 am

Anyone see Emily Thornberry's magnificent evisceration of Liz Truss in the Commons? That's how you deal with these b@stards, back them into a corner with facts and embarrass them (as far as their almost complete lack of shame will allow).

It's shame that moments like that are either ignored or not understood by the majority of the electorate and no doubt that one of Truss's stupid polls will tell us that more people think Liz Truss makes a better International Trade Secretary than Emily Thornberry would.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 27 Nov 2020, 5:13 pm

Lib Dems won a seat from the SNP last night.....Maybe the Lib Dems can make hay from Labour's unnecessary infighting....2 points up nationally in the latest poll too...

Labour have lost 55,000 members in the last 6 months.....CWU are meeting to discuss whether they should bother funding the Party, Unite have already cut funding and the Baker's Union are meeting to discuss whether to quit Labour altogether...

This Antisemitism bollox quashed by the EHRC is a very silly hill to die on..

The Public aren't interested...Wakey Wakey time.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Fri 27 Nov 2020, 5:37 pm

Quashed? That's a huge leap to make based on the reality of the report.

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Post by GSC on Fri 27 Nov 2020, 5:44 pm

If the public's interests aligned with those who propped up Jeremy Corbyns leadership they might have voted for him in 2 general elections
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Post by lostinwales on Fri 27 Nov 2020, 8:41 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Lib Dems won a seat from the SNP last night.....Maybe the Lib Dems can make hay from Labour's unnecessary infighting....2 points up nationally in the latest poll too...

Labour have lost 55,000 members in the last 6 months.....CWU are meeting to discuss whether they should bother funding the Party, Unite have already cut funding and the Baker's Union are meeting to discuss whether to quit Labour altogether...

This Antisemitism bollox quashed by the EHRC is a very silly hill to die on..

The Public aren't interested...Wakey Wakey time.

Well maybe they can cut out events like Labour Live and save themselves thousands. Maybe by getting their business in order they can avoid litigation from those who were forced out by the nutters.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sat 28 Nov 2020, 9:38 am

Corbyn approval ratings....Among Labour members

App 48
Dis..46

Blair approval ratings...

App..45
Dis.. 45

Brown approval ratings..

App....66
Dis.....17

Blair remains the most unpopular Labour leader among Members....As Brown is the most popular it shows that Iraq will seemingly always sully Blair however many times he tries to re-invent....Sobering as Brown was complicit.

Still I voted for all three of them but I won't vote for Starmer.

Corbyn breakdown..

Less than 20k a year....+30
More than 40k a year....-17.

Considering that many of the red wall areas like Burnley...Bury..etc are mainly low income not sure bullying Corbyn is the best idea..

But then again for New New Labour it seems winning the next Election is just an added bonus.

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Post by lostinwales on Sat 28 Nov 2020, 12:40 pm

Does Corbyn actually have traction in the North? After all he lost so many seats there.

There is this myth that Trussman seems to have bought into that Corbyn is somehow one with the working class and Starmer, as a 'Sir' is not. But then you look at their roots. Yet another thing that really annoys me about Corbyn and the core that surrounds him is that connection with 'the working class', which when you look at it seems to be more of an idealised version of a kind of people that barely exists anymore.

Anyway I bet Corbyn has been to the middle east more times than he's been to the North.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Sat 28 Nov 2020, 3:10 pm

Some interesting thoughts from Nick Robinson:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55100767
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 4:36 pm

Deltapoll....Keir Starmer approval.

Labour voters.....60% -10
Lib Dem voters...39% -22
Conserv voters...38% +5

It figures...Blair without the personality.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Sun 29 Nov 2020, 10:05 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Deltapoll....Keir Starmer approval.

Labour voters.....60% -10
Lib Dem voters...39% -22
Conserv voters...38% +5

It figures...Blair without the personality.
Yeah, and hopefully w/o the God complex.
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Post by Soul Requiem on Mon 30 Nov 2020, 8:47 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Corbyn approval ratings....Among Labour members

App 48
Dis..46

Blair approval ratings...

App..45
Dis.. 45


So Corbyn is just as unpopular as Blair despite never being PM?

Three election wins vs two election defeats? Hmmm tricky one.

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Post by superflyweight on Mon 30 Nov 2020, 9:59 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Corbyn approval ratings....Among Labour members

App 48
Dis..46

Blair approval ratings...

App..45
Dis.. 45


So Corbyn is just as unpopular as Blair despite never being PM?

Three election wins vs two election defeats? Hmmm tricky one.

Also as popular/unpopular as Blair without leading the country into a hugely unpopular war. Can't believe that anyone would see what happened at that last election and consider that Corbyn was anything but a massive failure and that Labour needed to re-engage with the electorate and stop trying to just appeal to appeal to middle-class kids indulging in poverty tourism.

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 30 Nov 2020, 1:06 pm

Blair something something hindsight something any other PM wiould have done the same something.

Iraq has been a very convenient stick with which to beat Blair ever since, by both the right and the left, who seemingly never forgave him for being so successful.

As has repeatedly been said every PM has a sell by date  (some shorter than others, few if any as short as BJ) and Blair went past his. But he had a good run.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 30 Nov 2020, 2:26 pm

lostinwales wrote:Blair something something hindsight something any other PM wiould have done the same something.

Iraq has been a very convenient stick with which to beat Blair ever since, by both the right and the left, who seemingly never forgave him for being so successful.

As has repeatedly been said every PM has a sell by date  (some shorter than others, few if any as short as BJ) and Blair went past his. But he had a good run.
Nothing to do w/ him being 'successful'. More to do w/ the 'message from God', illegal, mass murdering war that he embroiled us in while causing David Kelly to commit suicide whilst lying through his/their teeth about evidence of WMD w/ made up dossiers for justification. May be just me, but I wouldn't **** on him if he were on fire.
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Post by Samo Yesterday at 9:35 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Blair something something hindsight something any other PM wiould have done the same something.

Iraq has been a very convenient stick with which to beat Blair ever since, by both the right and the left, who seemingly never forgave him for being so successful.

As has repeatedly been said every PM has a sell by date  (some shorter than others, few if any as short as BJ) and Blair went past his. But he had a good run.
Nothing to do w/ him being 'successful'. More to do w/ the 'message from God', illegal, mass murdering war that he embroiled us in while causing David Kelly to commit suicide whilst lying through his/their teeth about evidence of WMD w/ made up dossiers for justification. May be just me, but I wouldn't **** on him if he were on fire.

And despite all that he’s still one of the better post-war Prime Ministers.

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Post by navyblueshorts Yesterday at 10:38 am

Samo wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Blair something something hindsight something any other PM wiould have done the same something.

Iraq has been a very convenient stick with which to beat Blair ever since, by both the right and the left, who seemingly never forgave him for being so successful.

As has repeatedly been said every PM has a sell by date  (some shorter than others, few if any as short as BJ) and Blair went past his. But he had a good run.
Nothing to do w/ him being 'successful'. More to do w/ the 'message from God', illegal, mass murdering war that he embroiled us in while causing David Kelly to commit suicide whilst lying through his/their teeth about evidence of WMD w/ made up dossiers for justification. May be just me, but I wouldn't **** on him if he were on fire.

And despite all that he’s still one of the better post-war Prime Ministers.
🤷 Maybe so, but his legacy is forever tarnished by the fact he's a warmongering, lying PoS. Harsh, but fair I think.
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Yesterday at 11:36 am

I think you look at in the round. Iraq and WMDs aren't cancelled out by the good things New Labour did, but the same is true the other way round.

I'm not a Labour voter these days, but it's beyond me how Blair and Blairism have become dirty words to so many in the party. You need to win power before you can do anything, and moving to the centre is clearly the way to do it.

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Post by GSC Yesterday at 11:40 am

It's not about winning elections it's about winning the argument
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Yesterday at 12:02 pm

I don't see England voting for a party that's too far to the left, regardless of how well the argument is made, whereas in the relatively recent past it has voted for a centre-left party that held power for quite an extended period.

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