F1 2020 Season

First topic message reminder :

Thought I'd start this thread since no-one else has yet.

First glimpse of this season's cars as Haas unveil their entry for this year. Not really much difference visually from last season, but then there haven't been any major rule changes:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/51405017




Have to say I quite like this livery.

Feel free to add more pics as they are released...

RB pitted Verstappen for a fastest lap point, I'm dying

Softer compounds and hotter weather next week

Kinda sums up this season, Mercedes have been somewhat off their game but are so far clear on car pace it's irrelevant

Hot weather brings max into play.

Well that was shaping up to be a pretty boring race until the tyre failures at the end.

Gutted for Bottas and Sainz - lost 2nd and 5th place respectively. Hamilton SO lucky his tyre hung on just one lap longer. Just had to laugh at him doing his cooldown lap on 3 wheels.

Couldn't understand RB pitting Verstappen when they did. If they were worried about tyre failure, surely they would have brought him in with a few more laps to go? They must be equally gutted at missing out on a potential win (he was what 3-4 seconds behind Hamilton in the end?). But 2nd is a pretty good consolation prize.

Was looking like being a pretty miserable race for Albon, but he managed a semi-respectable finish in the end. At least got some points on the board.

Ferrari & Leclerc will be very happy to get on the podium again after their recent woes.

Pirelli with some questions to answer. Its not like they pushed the recommended limit for the hard tyres.

Very happy for Ricciardo, getting 4th and Norris another 5th place. Ocon getting 6th makes this a very good weekend for Renault. Best for along while.

Probably biggest news of the race has to be Gasly coming 7th for Alpha Tauri, overtaking Vettel in the process!

Disappointing race for the Pink Mercedes. Dunno if Stroll was having car problems but he looked well off the pace, compared to previous races.

Verstappen pitted for a fastest lap attempt

dyrewolfe wrote:Well that was shaping up to be a pretty boring race until the tyre failures at the end.

Gutted for Bottas and Sainz - lost 2nd and 5th place respectively. Hamilton SO lucky his tyre hung on just one lap longer. Just had to laugh at him doing his cooldown lap on 3 wheels.

Couldn't understand RB pitting Verstappen when they did. If they were worried about tyre failure, surely they would have brought him in with a few more laps to go? They must be equally gutted at missing out on a potential win (he was what 3-4 seconds behind Hamilton in the end?). But 2nd is a pretty good consolation prize.

Was looking like being a pretty miserable race for Albon, but he managed a semi-respectable finish in the end. At least got some points on the board.

Ferrari & Leclerc will be very happy to get on the podium again after their recent woes.

Pirelli with some questions to answer. Its not like they pushed the recommended limit for the hard tyres.

Very happy for Ricciardo, getting 4th and Norris another 5th place. Ocon getting 6th makes this a very good weekend for Renault. Best for along while.

Probably biggest news of the race has to be Gasly coming 7th for Alpha Tauri, overtaking Vettel in the process!

Disappointing race for the Pink Mercedes. Dunno if Stroll was having car problems but he looked well off the pace, compared to previous races.

Its a much acknowledged fact though (even by Valterri) that Hamilton manages his tyres just that bit better so I would not say it was luck. Mercedes pushed the tyres to the limit and it almost cost them the race. Kudos to Verstappen who just kept close enough to them to prevent them making that pit stop.

Good to see former giants McLaren and Renault getting a strong result too. The pink Mercedes looked pretty damned ordinary today.

Ferrari trying to rush out a new chassis for Vettel before Thursday. Touch and go as to whether it will arrive in time. Supposed chassis damage was undetected until post race. Seems bizarre when Vettel was complaining since Friday.

Prior to the closing laps, Bottas was already at the stage where he essentially needed a Hamilton DNF to get back into the championship picture. Post race he now needs Hamilton to have at least 2 DNFs or alternatively win all the remaining races - neither of which will happen.

Bottas, unfortunately for him, lacks that killer edge the real top drivers have.

Anyone whom witnessed the start, will see Bottas got a good start and should’ve kept his foot on the gas at turn 1, but he backed out. He’s not got the mental capacity.

It’s why Bottas has been there for four years, and why he is going to be beaten four years straight.

As for RP’s performance, I’m not totally surprised. They don’t have the drivers, and they don’t have the engineering capabilities or personel to understand, extract, and, maximise, the true potential of that car. It’s essentially still ‘Force India’ with money, which is going to need a lot more than a rebrand, in order to become truly competitive for, 2022. Hence, why it would feel pretty stupid of Vettel to sign with them, and why he’s probably holding out for RB.

Also, Renault lodged another protest against RP last night.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:Well that was shaping up to be a pretty boring race until the tyre failures at the end.

Gutted for Bottas and Sainz - lost 2nd and 5th place respectively. Hamilton SO lucky his tyre hung on just one lap longer. Just had to laugh at him doing his cooldown lap on 3 wheels.

Couldn't understand RB pitting Verstappen when they did. If they were worried about tyre failure, surely they would have brought him in with a few more laps to go? They must be equally gutted at missing out on a potential win (he was what 3-4 seconds behind Hamilton in the end?). But 2nd is a pretty good consolation prize.

Was looking like being a pretty miserable race for Albon, but he managed a semi-respectable finish in the end. At least got some points on the board.

Ferrari & Leclerc will be very happy to get on the podium again after their recent woes.

Pirelli with some questions to answer. Its not like they pushed the recommended limit for the hard tyres.

Very happy for Ricciardo, getting 4th and Norris another 5th place. Ocon getting 6th makes this a very good weekend for Renault. Best for along while.

Probably biggest news of the race has to be Gasly coming 7th for Alpha Tauri, overtaking Vettel in the process!

Disappointing race for the Pink Mercedes. Dunno if Stroll was having car problems but he looked well off the pace, compared to previous races.

Its a much acknowledged fact though (even by Valterri) that Hamilton manages his tyres just that bit better so I would not say it was luck. Mercedes pushed the tyres to the limit and it almost cost them the race. Kudos to Verstappen who just kept close enough to them to prevent them making that pit stop.

Good to see former giants McLaren and Renault getting a strong result too. The pink Mercedes looked pretty damned ordinary today.

Its also a well-known fact that race leaders suffer less tyre wear by not being in other cars' turbulence, so I wouldn't say its entirely down to Hamilton's tyre management skills either (not something I was aware he was particularly good at). Usually his engineer has to tell him to look after his tyres, so they can stick to their race strategy.

Would like to know the source for your "fact" as I've never heard or read this anywhere.

I think Bottas ran too close to Hamilton for far too long tbh. When they do those pitwall interviews with team principals, they frequently suggest staying 2secs behind if you can’t get passed. Bottas stayed in the dirty air for around 25 laps at around 1.2-1.5secs. He essentially cooked his tyres behind Hamilton.

When you sit in dirty air you put more energy through the tyres asking them to make up the difference in downforce.

That said, when the tyres blew up within a couple of laps of each other, that suggests there wasn't much difference in tyre wear and Lewis just got a bit luckier than Bottas did

Jeff Navarro wrote:Prior to the closing laps, Bottas was already at the stage where he essentially needed a Hamilton DNF to get back into the championship picture. Post race he now needs Hamilton to have at least 2 DNFs or alternatively win all the remaining races - neither of which will happen.

Bottas, unfortunately for him, lacks that killer edge the real top drivers have.

Anyone whom witnessed the start, will see Bottas got a good start and should’ve kept his foot on the gas at turn 1, but he backed out. He’s not got the mental capacity.

I'm just wondering, despite Toto Wolff's protests to the contrary about both drivers having equal opportunity, how much Bottas is being told to just be the good wingman. Considering Hamilton is on the verge of equalling Schumacher's title record, you have to wonder how much freedom to race they actually have.

I mean, you've got a 6-time champion partnered with someone with a handful of race wins to their name. Who do you think the team are going to prioritise?

Also, its all well and good saying Valtteri should have kept his foot down, but if it had resulted in a collision that took both cars out of the race, the fallout would probably cost him his career. He wouldn't have his contract renewed and he'd be facing some stiff competition to get a drive with another team.

That said, I happily acknowledge Hamilton is the better driver...I'm just also saying Valtteri may be having to deal with more than that.

Jeff Navarro wrote:
I think Bottas ran too close to Hamilton for far too long tbh. When they do those pitwall interviews with team principals, they frequently suggest staying 2secs behind if you can’t get passed. Bottas stayed in the dirty air for around 25 laps at around 1.2-1.5secs. He essentially cooked his tyres behind Hamilton.

This! Just another symptom of what's wrong with F1 at the moment (and hopefully something the new regs will go a long way to rectifying). You can stay with a car in front for a while, but after a while your tyres really suffer. Not to mention the fact your engine and brakes start to overheat because they're taking in all the hot, turbulent air.

Just John wrote:
It’s why Bottas has been there for four years, and why he is going to be beaten four years straight.

As for RP’s performance, I’m not totally surprised. They don’t have the drivers, and they don’t have the engineering capabilities or personel to understand, extract, and, maximise, the true potential of that car. It’s essentially still ‘Force India’ with money, which is going to need a lot more than a rebrand, in order to become truly competitive for, 2022. Hence, why it would feel pretty stupid of Vettel to sign with them, and why he’s probably holding out for RB.

Also, Renault lodged another protest against RP last night.

I dunno. I think its tough for any driver coming into a team with a multiple world champion as their team mate.

Just look at the team mates Schumacher chewed up and spat out during his time at Ferrari, with fans and the media dismissing them as second-rate because they could never beat him.

Just look at Vettel during his time at Red Bull...and remember Webber's "Not bad for a #2 driver" outburst.

We're just seeing the same thing with Hamilton. The fact he has been a level above every other driver for the last few years on its own makes Bottas' job hard enough. But the titles he has won has made him the #1 driver...Hamilton IS Mercedes...despite whatever Toto might say. Then you've got the fact Lewis is on a mission to equal...and likely surpass Schumacher's number of titles.

Do you not think the team will be doing everything they can to make sure this happens? Just think of the prestige it would bring.

Anyway, back to my original argument: in teams where you have drivers of similar ability and standing, you can (or should) expect equal treatment and opportunity. But in teams where there is one very obviously dominant driver, their team mate is always going to be up against it, whatever the team says in public.

Getting on to Racing Point, apparently Mercedes have made this year's car around 0.7sec quicker, over a flying lap, so all other things being equal, Stroll and Perez / Hulk should be doing well enough to keep Merc honest...probably bagging a few podiums. Just shows you can buy good equipment, but if you haven't got the drivers and engineers to get the best out of it, you're still going to perform poorly.

So yeah, Vettel may not be liking what he sees there. Then again Aston Martin could bring some of their own people into the team next season, which may improve the technical development side of things (though thats purely speculation).

I still don't see him going back to RB to play second fiddle to Verstappen - even if they offered him a contract.

Just my 2 cents, but I could see him taking a year out and coming back in 2022 when the new regs will put everything up in the air again (if the teams' contractual situations provide a suitable opening). Despite his recent problems, his stock should still be high enough that he could get a seat with most teams (besides the top 3) if they had a vacant seat.

dyrewolfe wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

dyrewolfe wrote:Well that was shaping up to be a pretty boring race until the tyre failures at the end.

Gutted for Bottas and Sainz - lost 2nd and 5th place respectively. Hamilton SO lucky his tyre hung on just one lap longer. Just had to laugh at him doing his cooldown lap on 3 wheels.

Couldn't understand RB pitting Verstappen when they did. If they were worried about tyre failure, surely they would have brought him in with a few more laps to go? They must be equally gutted at missing out on a potential win (he was what 3-4 seconds behind Hamilton in the end?). But 2nd is a pretty good consolation prize.

Was looking like being a pretty miserable race for Albon, but he managed a semi-respectable finish in the end. At least got some points on the board.

Ferrari & Leclerc will be very happy to get on the podium again after their recent woes.

Pirelli with some questions to answer. Its not like they pushed the recommended limit for the hard tyres.

Very happy for Ricciardo, getting 4th and Norris another 5th place. Ocon getting 6th makes this a very good weekend for Renault. Best for along while.

Probably biggest news of the race has to be Gasly coming 7th for Alpha Tauri, overtaking Vettel in the process!

Disappointing race for the Pink Mercedes. Dunno if Stroll was having car problems but he looked well off the pace, compared to previous races.

Its a much acknowledged fact though (even by Valterri) that Hamilton manages his tyres just that bit better so I would not say it was luck. Mercedes pushed the tyres to the limit and it almost cost them the race. Kudos to Verstappen who just kept close enough to them to prevent them making that pit stop.

Good to see former giants McLaren and Renault getting a strong result too. The pink Mercedes looked pretty damned ordinary today.

Its also a well-known fact that race leaders suffer less tyre wear by not being in other cars' turbulence, so I wouldn't say its entirely down to Hamilton's tyre management skills either (not something I was aware he was particularly good at). Usually his engineer has to tell him to look after his tyres, so they can stick to their race strategy.

Would like to know the source for your "fact" as I've never heard or read this anywhere.

Well I suppose we should issue a writ against the likes of Martin Brundle for lying then. They said Bottas (during the close season) sat down with his team to work out where he needed to improve to win the world title and tyre management was one of those areas where it was pointed out he was behind Lewis Hamilton.

It's probably a large part because Lewis laps clear at the front and can therefore control the pace and his tyres.

Vettel did similar in the RB when the tyres were more sensitive

Whereas this year Bottas has had to use his tyres to pass Verstappen or push behind Lewis

But at the end of the day Jeff is right. Rosberg realised the only way he was ever going to beat Hamilton was by getting his elbows out and going as close to the line as possible (and sometimes over). Bottas should've put Lewis right on the outside kerb at turn 1 and ran him wide at turn 3.

But he's content to play the #2 role, and that's all Mercedes want him to do, hence why he keeps getting brought back on 1 year deals until the team feels they can get Verstappen or Russell to succeed Lewis.

Better tyre wear isn't Bottas' problem, it's his mentality

Laurence Stroll supposedly grinning from ear to ear after ‘confirming’ he signed Sebastian Vettel on a 3 year deal. No announcements until Checo Perez is healthy again.

GSC wrote:
Better tyre wear isn't Bottas' problem, it's his mentality

Better tyrewear isn't his only problem and neither is mentality. It is a whole conglomeration of things.

On the Vettel issue someone mentioned him possibly holding out for Red Bull. Not a chance in the world. Verstappen would never accept Vettel as his team-mate. Likewise Vettel would never accept Verstappen as his team-mate. They will never drive in the same team.

Doubt either would be that fussed to be honest. RB represents the best chance for Seb to win races and Max would relish the chance to beat the old golden boy. Might give him a better race than being 20 seconds off the cars ahead and behind

Team Verstappen have always stated that they’ll ditch Red Bull if they don’t provide Max the championship winning car he so desperately craves. And Mercedes would sign Verstappen in a flash.

Hence why Red Bull will always be interested in Vettel - undisputedly the greatest driver in Red Bull’s history.

Red Bull would be stupid if Vettel was willing to return, they pass and then Verstappen quits. They’d be left with Kvyat, Gasly and Albon - none of whom are really treated with much respect.

Agree. There’s no way Verstappen is worried about a faded Vettel. RB aren’t in a position anymore either to pick and choose, they need a replacement for Albon, and their young driver programme is empty nowadays.

Shame for Vettel, if he’s resorted to signing for AM. Fear he’s been sold one there, I’m afraid. Even if he’s being paid a ridiculous amount, he doesn’t need it. It’s called the pink Mercedes, and people were expecting podiums, but in reality, it’s way off the pace. Should of just bowed out, because he won’t have any success at what is effectively, Force India, with some money. Going to be three to five years before they’ve assembled the engineering/mechanical staff required to topple the established elite.

Don’t the 2022 regulations reduce or limit aerodynamics on the cars?
Force India/Racing Point/Aston Martin whatever they are called have had aero issues stemming back years. If 2022 becomes even more engine dependent, then Vettel probably sees the Mercedes engine as a positive.

Would imagine they have to be to achieve the stated aim of allowing close racing.

In a major regulation change all bets are off. Particularly in a salary capped era

Just John wrote:Agree. There’s no way Verstappen is worried about a faded Vettel. RB aren’t in a position anymore either to pick and choose, they need a replacement for Albon, and their young driver programme is empty nowadays.

Shame for Vettel, if he’s resorted to signing for AM. Fear he’s been sold one there, I’m afraid. Even if he’s being paid a ridiculous amount, he doesn’t need it. It’s called the pink Mercedes, and people were expecting podiums, but in reality, it’s way off the pace. Should of just bowed out, because he won’t have any success at what is effectively, Force India, with some money. Going to be three to five years before they’ve assembled the engineering/mechanical staff required to topple the established elite.

It is not a case of either being worried by the other. They are egotists. They would demand No 1 team status or forget it. That is why it would never happen.

I don't think Max needs to demand it, he has it.

Question is more whether Vettel would be prepared to cede being the outright #1 to be in a potential race winning car or gamble that RP can close a bigger gap in a reg change

GSC wrote:I don't think Max needs to demand it, he has it.

Question is more whether Vettel would be prepared to cede being the outright #1 to be in a potential race winning car or gamble that RP can close a bigger gap in a reg change

And I would say definitely he would not. He has never been a rear gunner for anybody. Even his collisions with LeClerc and Ricciardo shows this. He'd sooner drive as No 1 at a lesser team than bow to a team-mate.

And I would say that's conjecture. vettel has never been in the position where he isn't an obvious #1 at a front running team until this year (where his teammate hit him) so really we're all guessing at his mindset

I would say the one thing I think he has been clear on is he'd rather spend a year out of F1 than have an Alonso at McLaren part II type experience in an uncompetitive car. I don't think Vettel needs the validation of another WDC like Alonso obsessed over

GSC wrote:And I would say that's conjecture. vettel has never been in the position where he isn't an obvious #1 at a front running team until this year (where his teammate hit him) so really we're all guessing at his mindset

We will agree to differ then. Whenever Vettel has been challenged by a team-mate and pressured he has been involved in spats and collisions. It happened at Red Bull with Daniel Ricciardo and has happened at Ferrari too with Charles Leclerc. I don't see that as coincedence but evidence.

It also happened with Lewis and Alonso/Button/Rosberg, what's your point?

GSC wrote:It also happened with Lewis and Alonso/Button/Rosberg, what's your point?

Not to the degree of Vettel where they were, much of the time elementary and amateurish errors done out of frustration and ire. My point being when the pressure is on he cracks a lot more than the true greats of the sport. Heck he is being out-driven too by Charles Leclerc since he came to Ferrari and it has shown with the clashes. Of course Hamilton had clashes too but nowhere near as noticeable or detrimental to the team.

Sorry but Hamilton wiped out Rosberg in Barcelona, it was very ‘noticeable’. As was when Hamilton crashed into Button in Montreal.

I know Vettel is hated by the British fans/media but he’s incidents get away more attention than similar incidents by others.

Jeff Navarro wrote:Sorry but Hamilton wiped out Rosberg in Barcelona, it was very ‘noticeable’. As was when Hamilton crashed into Button in Montreal.

I know Vettel is hated by the British fans/media but he’s incidents get away more attention than similar incidents by others.

Well it says it all if you are having to fish back to almost the start of Hamilton's career for an error. And Rosberg incident was about five years later. Vettel had comings together with Ricciardo at Red Bull (quite a few). He took out Raikonnen at the start of Singapore I think it was and has had run-ins with Leclerc who has proven last season and this that he is a quicker driver in the same car as Vettel.

I find it funny you pick and choose moments to suit your agenda tbh. ‘Fish back to the start of Hamilton’s career’ 2013 and 2016 aren’t the beginning of Hamilton’s career.

As for Vettel, Ricciardo and the German never once crashed into each other and I’m no expect on Red Bull either to know this.

Vettel twice crashed into Webber - once when he was Toro Rosso driver and the other was in Turkey. Once Vettel crashed into Button at Spa. Vettel and LeClerc crashed in São Paulo. And obviously 2017 Singapore. Vettel also hit Stroll at Monza and Verstappen in British GP.

7 major incidents yet the story suggests that Vettel is Maldonado part 2...

You can easily go and see the records of Schumacher/Senna/Hamilton and they’ve made similar amounts of errors.

Anyway...

Thought Albons crash with Magnusson was a bit of a racing incident, while more than slightly opportunistic/optimistic. All Magnusson needed to do was just carry his speed around the outside and he would've held position easily, but he was probably unsighted/has never been particularly reasonable.

I do feel for him a bit now. As much as he's been promoted too early, it looks a bit different if Lewis doesn't hit him in Austria and he wins the race.

Beginning to wonder if Haas have much of a future in F1. Allowing Grosjean and Magnusson to continue isn't exactly a great sign for how switched on management is.

Binotto no longer part of the technical side of the team - no surprise as he had never worked in that field before.

Elsewhere Ferrari are now protesting Racing Point’s car...just as Vettel signed for them...

Can see why Renault would but seems kinda petty from Ferrari. Particularly when they gave Haas the previous years chassis in their debut season for air tunnel time.

I’d also understand if it was in Mercedes’ league, or even matching a RB. In reality, it’s a midfield car, which struggled to score a point at Silverstone. Shouldn’t really be any envy from other teams. As of right now, it looks a bang average copy job, from a tin-pot, ex Force India team. Renault and Ferrari should just focus on themselves and sorting their own issues out.

Anyway in a real world it would be damned exciting Aston Martin rolling up into F1 next year but F1 is not like that now sadly. It is a subsidiary under the ownership of Daimler so no doubt it will continue to use largely Mercedes parts and be Aston Martin only in name.

It really is sad what F1 has become. The variety has gone out of it. The competing teams have evaporated and less super power car companies are involved. Also the rules restrictions on designs etc restrict ingenious designs.

Aston Martin is owned by Laurence Stroll, no association with Daimler

Jeff Navarro wrote:Aston Martin is owned by Laurence Stroll, no association with Daimler

Okay not owned by but is in partnership with Daimler who supply the engines and parts for Aston Martin cars. Even their CEO is from Mercedes-AMG.

Stroll F1, joking obviously, has a lot of people hedging their bets. Toto Wolff has a % stake. The former Mercedes CEO.

Aston Martin could become the works Mercedes team one day if Mercedes see it as a viable option to reign back their works team.

Nico Hulkenberg could be named Mercedes reserve because Esteban Gutierrez’s super license has expired and he’s not eligible to get a new one

Jeff Navarro wrote:Stroll F1, joking obviously, has a lot of people hedging their bets. Toto Wolff has a % stake. The former Mercedes CEO.

Aston Martin could become the works Mercedes team one day if Mercedes see it as a viable option to reign back their works team.

Possibly.

It is a shame there are not more motor companies aboard with greater variety. I miss the days of where the likes of Ford, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, Honda and more supplied engines and the competition was greater.

Ferrari and Vettel took part in a film day yesterday at Silverstone, 100km I think some 16 laps. They managed to get a new chassis over from Maranello.

They also added Vettel’s name back on his team wear after a furious backlash in Italy from the Tifosi.

Bottas confirms his new one-year deal

RP/Renault protest result expected tomorrow morning.

One would assume that Bottas’ deal will be his final one at Mercedes. Come 2022 I think Hamilton will potentially retire, he’s at the Sebastien Loeb situation from a few years ago whereby he lost interest because he won everything all the time.

2022 potentially will be Ocon and Russell

Sergio Perez has been linked with a sensational move to Red Bull Racing. A solid second driver like a guaranteed 7/10 most races.

RB need to have a 2nd driver they can leave alone to do the job clearly. Albon and Gasly failed as much for a lack of support, esp given Gasly at Toro Rossi has looked to back up his reputation