Golf and austerity

Is it fair to say that the golfing world during the boom years built too many golf courses. Leading to many closing as a downturn hit? Add to that golfs own struggles in the modern world in that its a time consuming activity.

There will inevitably be downturns and upturns, golf courses will come and go cyclically over the long term as the popularity of the sport waxes and wanes.

A more recent alarming trend tho is that many munis are now scheduled for that chop. Muni’s are the lifeblood of grassroots golf if golf wants to appeal to the masses. They are generally cheaper and therefore naturally more accessible to a wider demographic. Cut away the availability of municipal courses and you cut away participation levels significantly and instead of growing and appealing to a wider audience golf retreats to a more exclusive income bracket.

Commercial reality is commercial reality though and so munis simply have to up their game, I’m delighted to belong to a club based on a more forward thinking municipal. It’s over 5 years now since the council leased out our course to a private operator to run. It’s not been perfect but...the course is now much better maintained and presented that it was. The golf academy based onsite is churning out promising and committed juniors, We have a big AG store onsite (above the driving range) and our membership is up. The place is basically thriving so I’d stick my neck out and say our local council got it spot on.

Now contrast that with the news I saw in the Ayrshire Post this week, in my old home county which has something like 9 municipal courses is earmarking several for closure including Belleisle considered by many to be one of the best munis in the country. The council is being forced to make over £9m in cuts and 5 of the golf courses are in the firing line. I’m sure we were told that austerity was now over but apparently not. South Ayrshire is absolutely steeped in golf, it must bring in significant revenues to the county. Somebody needs to give them a shake about being so short sighted. The thing is once a course goes, it ain’t coming back, Not sure about some of the others earmarked but not Belleisle, surely.

Ayrshire might bring in a load of cash through golf, but it's not due to the Muni's in the area. Perhaps they are a victim of Ayrshire having so many top courses?

Camperdown in Dundee, a superb muni is also being chopped whilst several local private clubs are struggling. Golf interest is dwindling and you can't really blame them for cutting resources that have never been profitable. Councils run several amenities like swimming pools at a loss. Eventually you have to get rid I'm afraid.

super_realist wrote:Ayrshire might bring in a load of cash through golf, but it's not due to the Muni's in the area. Perhaps they are a victim of Ayrshire having so many top courses?

Camperdown in Dundee, a superb muni is also being chopped whilst several local private clubs are struggling. Golf interest is dwindling and you can't really blame them for cutting resources that have never been profitable. Councils run several amenities like swimming pools at a loss. Eventually you have to get rid I'm afraid.

Yes I know it does, people come from all over the world to play Troon, Turnberry, Prestwick etc not The Darley, Belleisle or Girvan but...those courses get many people into golf, the big private ones do not, they make pots of money on their reputation which is fine but what does that do for growing the future of the game locally?
Hmmm if every effort has failed then maybe that is the final option, I’m not convinced (certainly based on the example of my clubs turnaround), that South Ayrshire would have seriously explored their options.

Besides that there is a lot more to life and society than a bloody balance sheet.

I'm not saying courses should be shut, I just understand why they are.
There's also a lot of clubs around who aren't municipal but are offering fantastic deals because they all need the money.
This is especially true if you're fortunate to be below 35.
Golf can be fiendishly expensive, but it doesn't have to be.

Problem in Scotland is that funding to councils hasn't really recovered after various Council Tax freezes and maintenance of leisure facilities is not an essential service.

SR is right, Camperdown has a superb layout and it had the makings of being a very good course (its upkeep went downhill in the late 90's) and it's a real shame that it's being closed. However, Camperdown's not an easy place to get to from certain parts of Dundee and although the much more accessible Caird Park isn't a patch on Camperdown, it will be bringing in greater revenues.

super_realist wrote:I'm not saying courses should be shut, I just understand why they are.
There's also a lot of clubs around who aren't municipal but are offering fantastic deals because they all need the money.
This is especially true if you're fortunate to be below 35.
Golf can be fiendishly expensive, but it doesn't have to be.

I suppose I understand as well, I just don’t agree with the mentality. I also still get riled by the constant shower of lies peddled by these loony right no marks running the country. “Austerity is over” easy sound bite with no resonance to reality whatsoever. If austerity is over why are councils having to close services to balance their books, why are schools more and more dependent on fundraising activities to provide essential “little extras”

These turds running the country have no concept of what austerity means (despite creating it). I see the new chancellor made millions as a hedge fund manager during the crash. Talk about putting the lunatics in charge of the asylum...you couldn’t make it up!!

JAS wrote:

super_realist wrote:I'm not saying courses should be shut, I just understand why they are.
There's also a lot of clubs around who aren't municipal but are offering fantastic deals because they all need the money.
This is especially true if you're fortunate to be below 35.
Golf can be fiendishly expensive, but it doesn't have to be.

I suppose I understand as well, I just don’t agree with the mentality. I also still get riled by the constant shower of lies peddled by these loony right no marks running the country. “Austerity is over”  easy sound bite with no resonance to reality whatsoever. If austerity is over why are councils having to close services to balance their books, why are schools more and more dependent on fundraising activities to provide essential “little extras”

These turds running the country have no concept of what austerity means (despite creating it). I see the new chancellor made millions as a hedge fund manager during the crash. Talk about putting the lunatics in charge of the asylum...you couldn’t make it up!!

You need to drop this diatribe of the closure of local services being a problem of the loony right JAS. It isn't.

Councils (who operate golf courses, swimming pools, libraries etc) have the powers to set their own council tax rates which pay for these services. If you want to blame anyone for the closure of golf courses then blame the councils for freezing council tax, not the government as its nothing to do with them.

Bear in mind that most councils in Scotland are not run by the right, but the left and then consider why they are still shutting services.

Councils have all had decreasing funds from central Gov and need to make cut backs. Sone will cut jobs, others different services, or make bin collections 2 weekly. Libraries have closed. And obviously council run golf courses will be on the chopping block.

It's not good for golf, as these are the starting point for many. Golf is pretty expensive, in greater london anyway. I cant stump up over 100 notes a month to play once or twice if I joined a local club.

A course in our borough along with the driving range has been closed due to hs2. Council owned.

JAS, also worth noting that the revolting SNP charge an extra penny on all levels of tax and public services are still closing.
Perhaps ask Krankie what she's doing with the money.
Focus your ire on them, rather than central government which have far less influence on how money is spent locally than the SNP or local councils.
Scottish Government is more to blame then the UK government as they fund local authorities in addition to council tax and given that the a Scottish Government is tax raising, has also raised tax and still receives a higher amount of money than the rest of the UK due to the Barnet Formula then I think you might be focusing on the wrong target.

Beninho, golf has never been cheap in London, so not sure how cheap you'd expect it to be. 100 a month seems pretty good value and certainly cheaper than going to watch Spurs, Chelsea or Arsenal once a fortnight.

I tend to pay £30/£40 a round, as try and play early. Which is fine. But I do only play once a month. I'm also on the outside of london.

Courses near me are about £1500 a year. I cant justify that, no matter how much I'd like to!

beninho wrote:I tend to pay £30/£40 a round, as try and play early. Which is fine. But I do only play once a month. I'm also on the  outside of london.

Courses near me are about £1500 a year. I cant justify that, no matter how much I'd like to!

Seems a fair bit of cash, but not unreasonable.
I noticed Potters Bar Golf Club had gone fallow last time I passed.

The general interest levels in golf cannot be ignored. I hate to come close to agreeing with Super but I know for sure that golf is pretty affordable in Edinburgh despite it being on the pricier end of the spectrum in Scotland. Most clubs in the city will have a deal on membership whether it is advertised or not, I know that most club managers have the authority to negotiate a bit on the listed fee and can even offer other deals besides discounts on the subs.

If you could muster around £60 a month (or a bit less in some cases) I am almost certain you could join a club within the city limits.

And this would be drastically reduced outside the city.

The "but" here is you have to be interested enough in the game to make this seem like a bargain. And as far as I can see there just aren't the number of 2+ times a week players (in peak season) that there were 15-20(+) years ago.

In the 90's (I didn't play before then) through to early 00's at most clubs it was common to see the same core group of players rock up almost every evening in the summer after work to play at least 9 holes. These golf nuts don't seem to exist in the same numbers they used to.

If you are just going to have a half arsed go at the game then even £60/month for unlimited golf seems unreasonable.


I assume £60/month is cheaper than a gym, a weird obsession for many that has sprung up over recent years.

You could barely buy 4 cinema tickets for £60

Maybe 2 meals out if you went somewhere cheap.

One night out less a month would cover it.

The list could go on.


Essentially people just aren't willing to put the time into the game that it deserves. Hate to pick on people but ben for example needs to put more into the game. How busy can you be that it is impossible to find at least 2 hours a week for 9 holes (or less for even 6 holes) just to keep your play improving?

I agree Mac, I don't think 60 quid a month is very much considering how much people waste on things like mobile phone contracts, coffee, sandwiches for lunch etc.

I admit that I'm extremely fortunate in that I get one club for a country membership around £300 quid, and work covers the majority of my already cheap links ticket.
Basically I get all my golf for £600 a year for 7 full courses.
However I do have to drive a lot of miles to get the golf in.

In the peak of summer light you can easily play golf until 10pm, the children are surely asleep or just sitting around the house.

How come you can't meet a mate for a few holes and chipping practice late in the evening? or even just do a bit of solo practice.

People just lack the will power to put the hours in that you need to get competent at the game.

I do lack the will power or enthusiasm. I play with a couple of mates, around once a month, when we can get ourselves together.

I also, dont find it that exciting or even fun playing on my own.

The thing is, I accept my limitations, and, am not bothered. Maybe when the kids get older it will free up some time. One of my friends is moving to Ireland next year, so that may also push me into looking at options with a club, or just knocking it further on the head.

I enjoy it when I play, but that's as much as just being out with mates as much as actually playing golf.

Sorry Ben, shouldn't have made that so specific but out of interest what do you think it is about golf that has meant you are not totally hooked on the game?

I just see it as a generally fun past time with mates. I like to beat them and play well, but accept I'm not going to play as much as I would like to. That's due to my own limitations as well as not having many friends who also play the game.

If things were different, and I was involved in competitions and playing regularly, then it would probably be a lot different

Despite imposed Westminster Austerity, Council Tax in Scotland was frozen for around 8 years under central SNP policy - for votes. Lasting effects on many fronts. Unsuprising muni's in Scotland are affected. Surprising if anything they haven't been shut down long ago!

https://www.gov.scot/publications/council-tax-reduction-scotland-2017-18/pages/2/

The Council Tax freeze in place between 2008-09 and 2016-17 ended and the 2017-18 Local Government Finance settlement included an agreement between the Scottish Government and local government for locally determined Council Tax increases to be capped at 3 per cent.

Bloody hell Barra, where have you been?

Welcome back Barra.

I played Braid Hills late last summer (in September I think) and it was in pretty nice condition. I still maintain it is the best course inside the bypass.

I am not sure if it gets special treatment from the council because it is a little better known than most council courses so I assume it is not representative of the general state of council courses.

It's certainly quirky Mac, and interesting, but I don't think it's as good as Mortonhall. There are too many stupid holes on the course.

Mortonhall is ok but it just lacks the character that the braids has.


Although what do you think is the worst course in the city?

My vote for that would go to kingsknowe. (with honorable mention to Carrick Knowe)

I've not played that many Mac. Ravelston is pretty terrible. Carrick Knowe is probably the worst I've seen.
But it's OK to sneak on with a pocket of balls and a couple of clubs on a summers evening.

Are you ever going to join an Edinburgh club?

McLaren wrote:Are you ever going to join an Edinburgh club?

No point Mac, too expensive, not very good and only accessible for me on around four months of summer evenings

Golf course land in the urban(muni) areas has an awful lot of land value -housebuilding.
Headline in the local paper today about building on what was a great municipal golf course.
However local clubs are almost giving golf away at present|(may not be the same in south east)
even doing points based deals.Supply and demand I'm afraid

Where are you the rest of the year?

McLaren wrote:Where are you the rest of the year?

Are you speaking to me or Barra?

super_realist wrote:

McLaren wrote:Where are you the rest of the year?

Are you speaking to me or Barra?

You, you said you are only around to play an Edinburgh course in the summer.

McLaren wrote:

super_realist wrote:

McLaren wrote:Where are you the rest of the year?

Are you speaking to me or Barra?

You, you said you are only around to play an Edinburgh course in the summer.

You misunderstand, I don't have an Edinburgh club because during the week I work, and from October to March it is dark in the evening. Given that I play at St Andrews, paying for an Edinburgh club just to play a course on the odd summer evening would be profligate.

For a man of your wealth I would have thought an extra golf club membership would have been pocket change. Plus it gets you into the local golf scene. You would fair well in the club champs, probably play on the team, get to play more often, make new friends. For about a grand that seems worth it.

McLaren wrote:For a man of your wealth I would have thought an extra golf club membership would have been pocket change. Plus it gets you into the local golf scene. You would fair well in the club champs, probably play on the team, get to play more often, make new friends. For about a grand that seems worth it.

I've already got two clubs Mac, already play on teams etc, a third would be overkill.

Super

If you get me onto TOC as a guest I will shout you more than few rounds at my club in Edinburgh.

McLaren wrote:Super

If you get me onto TOC as a guest I will shout you more than few rounds at my club in Edinburgh.

There's perhaps a deal to be done.

Remember you would also have to pay my bus fare.

McLaren wrote:Remember you would also have to pay my bus fare.

super_realist wrote:Bloody hell Barra, where have you been?

Still kicking it around 9-holes most weekends - but now entered full on hacker status!
Will be starting this season as a double-digit handicapper for the first time since my junior days, and even then I could do with a few extra strokes or 12!

barragan wrote:

super_realist wrote:Bloody hell Barra, where have you been?

Still kicking it around 9-holes most weekends - but now entered full on hacker status!
Will be starting this season as a double-digit handicapper for the first time since my junior days, and even then I could do with a few extra strokes or 12!

Think I've moved back to Edinburgh since we last spoke.

barragan wrote:

super_realist wrote:Bloody hell Barra, where have you been?

Still kicking it around 9-holes most weekends - but now entered full on hacker status!
Will be starting this season as a double-digit handicapper for the first time since my junior days, and even then I could do with a few extra strokes or 12!

Where are you thinking of playing?

super_realist wrote:
You need to drop this diatribe of the closure of local services being a problem of the loony right JAS. It isn't.

Eh it is, it very very clearly is

super_realist wrote:

Councils (who operate golf courses, swimming pools, libraries etc) have the powers to set their own council tax rates which pay for these services. If you want to blame anyone for the closure of golf courses then blame the councils for freezing council tax, not the government as its nothing to do with them.

Again, completely and utterly incorrect, councils may decide how to divide up the pie but central govt decide the size of the pie. The exact nub of the problem is that central govt is NOT adequately financing local councils, the dividing up of the pie then becomes a futile exercise and some have to be told “actually we couldnt make enough pie so some people will have no pie” Jesus Super where have you been for the past 10 years.

super_realist wrote:

Bear in mind that most councils in Scotland are not run by the right, but the left and then consider why they are still shutting services.

Eh because it’s an easy political game to play to starve administrations of cash and then blame their ideology for failing rather than a lack of cash.

JAS wrote:

super_realist wrote:
You need to drop this diatribe of the closure of local services being a problem of the loony right JAS. It isn't.
 

Eh it is, it very very clearly is

super_realist wrote:

Councils (who operate golf courses, swimming pools, libraries etc) have the powers to set their own council tax rates which pay for these services. If you want to blame anyone for the closure of golf courses then blame the councils for freezing council tax, not the government as its nothing to do with them.

Again, completely and utterly incorrect, councils may decide how to divide up the pie but central govt decide the size of the pie. The exact nub of the problem is that central govt is NOT adequately financing local councils, the dividing up of the pie then becomes a futile exercise and some have to be told “actually we couldnt make enough pie so some people will have no pie” Jesus Super where have you been for the past 10 years.

super_realist wrote:

Bear in mind that most councils in Scotland are not run by the right, but the left and then consider why they are still shutting services.

Eh because it’s an easy political game to play to starve administrations of cash and then blame their ideology for failing rather than a lack of cash.

You've completely ignored that a large % of taxes in Scotland are raised by the Scottish Government and spent in Scotland, and that Scotland pay an extra 1% taxes than the rest of the UK, so if any part of the Uk should be less affected by austerity, then it is Scotland, especially when you add in the extra money received by the Barnett Formula. Taxes raised in Scotland account for 40% of Scottish expenditure.
You are desperate to always blame the right, when it is the left in Scotland which is making a mess of local government, NHS and Education.  The SNP have been in power for over a decade, and you are still blaming the right for closure of trivial things like golf courses. That's really quite funny.
I notice how you completely ignore that councils have the right to raise Council Tax annually by a maximum of 3% per annum, however, across most of Scotland this has remained frozen for at least 5 years in most council areas. Mmmm, I wonder if that might have anything to do with a lack of investment in local services?


I'd rather a few awful municipals shut and the money spent elsewhere, wouldn't you? I actually wonder why you still live in Britain given that the UK is destined to be under the Tories for the next 10 years at least, and given your background of working abroad, I thought you might be happier to live somewhere more closely aligned with this socialist utopia you seek to unrealistically have here.

If state benefits are not increasing and housing benefits have been capped for a number of years, do you think councils should increase council tax on people who are seeing, basically a decrease in their real time income?

People on housing benefit in most cases don't pay council tax.

However, there will always be people on benefits, so should council tax always be frozen?

McLaren wrote:Welcome back Barra.

I played Braid Hills late last summer (in September I think) and it was in pretty nice condition. I still maintain it is the best course inside the bypass.

"The best course inside the bypass." Those are words I never expected to see written about Braid Hills. I've always liked it, and I've always enjoyed it, and it's fun, but Barnton, Bruntsfield, Duddingston, Mortonhall and Prestonfield are all probably better.

Has anyone played Thornton GC in Fife?

George1507 wrote:

McLaren wrote:Welcome back Barra.

I played Braid Hills late last summer (in September I think) and it was in pretty nice condition. I still maintain it is the best course inside the bypass.

"The best course inside the bypass." Those are words I never expected to see written about Braid Hills. I've always liked it, and I've always enjoyed it, and it's fun, but Barnton, Bruntsfield, Duddingston, Mortonhall and Prestonfield are all probably better.

Has anyone played Thornton GC in Fife?

Thornton is a dog track George and even in summer can be like The Somme

super_realist wrote:

JAS wrote:

super_realist wrote:
You need to drop this diatribe of the closure of local services being a problem of the loony right JAS. It isn't.
 

Eh it is, it very very clearly is

super_realist wrote:

Councils (who operate golf courses, swimming pools, libraries etc) have the powers to set their own council tax rates which pay for these services. If you want to blame anyone for the closure of golf courses then blame the councils for freezing council tax, not the government as its nothing to do with them.

Again, completely and utterly incorrect, councils may decide how to divide up the pie but central govt decide the size of the pie. The exact nub of the problem is that central govt is NOT adequately financing local councils, the dividing up of the pie then becomes a futile exercise and some have to be told “actually we couldnt make enough pie so some people will have no pie” Jesus Super where have you been for the past 10 years.

super_realist wrote:

Bear in mind that most councils in Scotland are not run by the right, but the left and then consider why they are still shutting services.

Eh because it’s an easy political game to play to starve administrations of cash and then blame their ideology for failing rather than a lack of cash.

You've completely ignored that a large % of  taxes in Scotland are raised by the Scottish Government and spent in Scotland, and that Scotland pay an extra 1% taxes than the rest of the UK, so if any part of the Uk should be less affected by austerity, then it is Scotland, especially when you add in the extra money received by the Barnett Formula. Taxes raised in Scotland account for 40% of Scottish expenditure.
You are desperate to always blame the right, when it is the left in Scotland which is making a mess of local government, NHS and Education.  The SNP have been in power for over a decade, and you are still blaming the right for closure of trivial things like golf courses. That's really quite funny.
I notice how you completely ignore that councils have the right to raise Council Tax annually by a maximum of 3% per annum, however, across most of Scotland this has remained frozen for at least 5 years in most council areas. Mmmm, I wonder if that might have anything to do with a lack of investment in local services?


I'd rather a few awful municipals shut and the money spent elsewhere, wouldn't you? I actually wonder why you still live in Britain given that the UK is destined to be under the Tories for the next 10 years at least, and given your background of working abroad, I thought you might be happier to live somewhere more closely aligned with this socialist utopia you seek to unrealistically have here.

If it’s a choice between keeping a few munis open or providing vital social care then of course it’s a no brainer. That whizzing noise you may have heard was the point passing over. The point of fact that you bizarrely seem to persist in wishing to deny the existence of is that the Tory and coalition govts  of the past 10 years HAVE starved councils of cash. Their choice (and it was a choice) was a bit different, it was properly fund society (so that councils can make those choices about munis or essential items) or recapitalise the banks, they very decisively chose to help recapitalise the banks.

With regard to munis, there was a time when our muni was really popular and run such that it subsidised other leisure facilities. Then when austerity caused a bit of a downturn the council short sightedly saw all leisure as a drain but..in fairness to them, rather than close all and sell off to developers, they leased the better ones out to private operators to run. So getting back to the other original point of the thread, why wouldn’t the Scottish councils looking at closing courses look at that as an option, even for some of them. In the case of Ayrshire, I think there is a case for saying try Belleisle & Seafield with a private operator and cull Maybole & Dalmilling, Girvan would be a bit of a 50/50 call.

P.S. Why would I want to move abroad because I disagree with government policy, as far as I know, it’s allowed to question/challenge things you don’t agree with, we don’t live in North Korea...yet!!

Councils have always had to balance books and cut services.
Things like libraries, schools hospitals etc have always been subject to cuts, regardless of who is in charge.

My point was that if you're so unhappy with all the cuts and the lack of provision of services, then why stay? Convenient that you completely ignored all the points made about the SNP, Scottish Government funding, increases in income tax and freezing of council tax, none of which has anything to do with Westminster.

Why did they have to recapitalise the banks? Eh, ask Gordon Brown. By the way, I'd rather the banks were kept afloat than some dog track in Girvan was kept running. Which is more important to the economy?

super_realist wrote:Councils have always had to balance books and cut services.
Things like libraries, schools hospitals etc have always been subject to cuts, regardless of who is in charge.

My point was that if you're so unhappy with all the cuts and the lack of provision of services, then why stay? Convenient that you completely ignored all the points made about the SNP, Scottish Government funding, increases in income tax and freezing of council tax, none of which has anything to do with Westminster.

Why did they have to recapitalise the banks? Eh, ask Gordon Brown. By the way, I'd rather the banks were kept afloat than some dog track in Girvan was kept running. Which is more important to the economy?

“Councils have always had to balance books” Well yeah...duh!! “...and cut services” Really??? You’re actually trying to normalise cutting services??

The whole “Why stay?” Thing is utter stupidity, not everybody has to agree with what a govt is doing to live in a country, Governments have changed colour over the years and it’s not made the slightest difference in my inclination to stay or go unlike Tory spies who threaten to leave the country at the merest whiff of Socialism.

Of course I’ve ignored your points about the SNP, I live in Chippenham and pay my taxes in England, I haven’t got the time or energy to sift through the minutiae of SNP tax policy.

Why did they have to recapitalise the banks? Well to paraphrase Thatcher ....”The problem with Capitalism is that the very pillars of modern day Capitalism ran out of other people’s money” and it took a huge amount of State aid (Socialism, using mine and your taxes) to refloat them. I’ve always said, apart from the Iraq war Labours biggest miss, they last time they were in power was not rolling back at least some of the banking deregulation idiocy from the Thatcher/Regan era. Anyway most non partisan economists actually credit Brown with steering a pretty impressive course after the financial crisis hit.

I'm not trying to normalise it, but you seem to be inferring that it is only under Tory governments that cuts occur or that councils are under pressure.

You were making points about Municipal golf courses in Scotland, and sidestepped the very real influence that the Scottish government plays in funding local services.  Instead you laid the blame for failing Scottish services on Westminster austerity because you didn't realise the degree to which local authorities are dependent upon Holyrood fiscal policy not to mention them digging their own grave by freezing council tax for five years. Then you overlooked that the SNP charge 1% tax more than the rest of the UK and the Barnet formula, but services here are still suffering.

Stick to the area you know, because you've clearly been away from Scotland too long to remember how funding works here as you clearly tripped up because its the left wing SNP you should be criticising not Westminster parties of any colour for golf course closures in Scotland.

Once in a while it would be better if you attacked government as a whole, rather than constantly blame one political party and ignore the failings of the left which are also responsible for failing public services.

Super

Would you agree that the austerity programme persuaded by the coalition and then Tory governments over the last decade was an ideological one rather than an economic one?