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Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

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Post by super_realist Tue May 19, 2020 12:58 am

I'm fine with immigration of people who bring value to the country in one way or another, who wouldn't be? What I'm not in favour of is people who bring nothing to the country in terms of skills, education, money etc. I wouldn't expect the many millions of useless Britons to be able to go the other way either just for balance.

What policy is has actively being engaged to stop people of a particular race unable to enter the country anyway? I've not seen any.


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Post by Soul Requiem Tue May 19, 2020 1:05 am

beninho wrote:Glad you missed me realist!

Anyway, todays thought for the day.

Ending Freedom of Movement, after the governments vote. Must make the racist brexiteers very happy.  I can't imagine anyone who isn't, a bit racist that could be happy with the decision.

Have a good day all.

laughing

A supporter of a fairer immigration system, you must be a bit racist or in fact the complete opposite I don't wish to prioritise EU workers over anyone else and feel that the UK as a country owes our former commonwealth for past sins. You'll have to point out which race is being victimised here Ben?

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Post by beninho Tue May 19, 2020 1:08 am

super_realist wrote:I'm fine with immigration of people who bring value to the country in one way or another, who wouldn't be? What I'm not in favour of is people who bring nothing to the country in terms of skills, education, money etc.  I wouldn't expect the many millions of useless Britons to be able to go the other way either just for balance.

What policy is has actively being engaged to stop people of a particular race unable to enter the country anyway?  I've not seen any.


So, you are fine with the current FOM. As its about treaty rights.

Don't think even our country is doing anything on race.

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Post by beninho Tue May 19, 2020 1:14 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
beninho wrote:Glad you missed me realist!

Anyway, todays thought for the day.

Ending Freedom of Movement, after the governments vote. Must make the racist brexiteers very happy.  I can't imagine anyone who isn't, a bit racist that could be happy with the decision.

Have a good day all.

laughing

A supporter of a fairer immigration system, you must be a bit racist or in fact the complete opposite I don't wish to prioritise EU workers over anyone else and feel that the UK as a country owes our former commonwealth for past sins. You'll have to point out which race is being victimised here Ben?

How is it fairer? Its not fairer to the one we have, which is fair to everyone brit and non brit.

I've not said its racist, not sure if you read my point.

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue May 19, 2020 1:20 am

Do explain how prioritising EU citizens based on the luck of birth is fairer? Applying the same criteria to EU and non EU is quite clearly a fairer system.

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Post by beninho Tue May 19, 2020 1:27 am

Soul Requiem wrote:Do explain how prioritising EU citizens based on the luck of birth is fairer? Applying the same criteria to EU and non EU is quite clearly a fairer system.

Is it fairer on the UK national who will lose the rights they previously had?

Its only for people who will earn over £25,600. So you are wiping out a lot of people, hardly fairer for everyone.

For some people the concern over those immigrants coming over here stealing jobs, outweighs  the benefits afforded to UK nationals in being able to move freely through Europe. I'm more in the position that its disappointing for my children's future and other to lose the right, rather then worrying about those belgiums coming over.

But, remember to clap for the NHS and carers, but only those foreigners earning over £25,600.  You can tell the others you don't think they should be in the country. Same with the shop workers or cleaners.

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue May 19, 2020 1:33 am

Their loss of rights is down to the EU not the UK government.

Let me guess you've read a one eyed article in the guardian and not bothered looking into it beyond that?

The £25,600 is a bit of a misnomer and something the left wing media are jumping on to pedal their nonsense, it quite clearly states that a relaxation of the criteria will apply when their are shortages in a certain area so is highly unlikely to affect any NHS staff or carers but bravo on your ability to read no further than a headline.

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Post by beninho Tue May 19, 2020 1:39 am

Loss of rights is down to the eu? What? You think the eu should offer fom while the British government don't?

The £25,600 isn't nonsense though. OK it can be relaxed, but its the policy. Which is fine and what the right wingers want. Just remember to look down on those not earning it and remember they are beneath you.

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue May 19, 2020 1:42 am

beninho wrote:Loss of rights is down to the eu? What? You think the eu should offer fom while the British government don't?

The £25,600 isn't nonsense though. OK it can be relaxed, but its the policy. Which is fine and what the right wingers want. Just remember to look down on those not earning it and remember they are beneath you.

What utter garbage. 'I can't formulate a proper argument because i've not read the bill properly so i'm going to resort to childishness instead'. I don't look down on anyone with a job, I also don't give preferential treatment to (white) EU nations either.

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Post by super_realist Tue May 19, 2020 1:51 am

beninho wrote:
super_realist wrote:I'm fine with immigration of people who bring value to the country in one way or another, who wouldn't be? What I'm not in favour of is people who bring nothing to the country in terms of skills, education, money etc.  I wouldn't expect the many millions of useless Britons to be able to go the other way either just for balance.

What policy is has actively being engaged to stop people of a particular race unable to enter the country anyway?  I've not seen any.


So, you are fine with the current FOM. As its about treaty rights.

Don't think even our country is doing anything on race.

I'm in fine with immigration that brings in people as required who bring value in one way or another to the country.

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Post by super_realist Tue May 19, 2020 1:52 am

beninho wrote:

The £25,600 isn't nonsense though.

Mac would love to earn that.

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Post by beninho Tue May 19, 2020 1:53 am

I'm not here to argue or debate.

I just think that removing FOM is pretty shoddy on a number of people. And don't like people looking down on people just because they don't earn a pre agreed figure.

Also, think a lot of people don't understand treaty rights.

Don't think its anything to celebrate.

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Post by super_realist Tue May 19, 2020 1:55 am

Shoddy on whom?
Lots of countries have barriers to entry and proof is required that you'll be of value to the country before you can enter the country to live and work. Why would you be against only admitting people with skills we require and not allowing those who don't? (by skills I mean jobs of all levels that aren't necessarily "skilled" like carers, fruit pickers, hotel employees etc).




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Post by beninho Tue May 19, 2020 2:00 am

Shoddy on people from eu countries who were looking to cone to the UK and meet the treaty rights, who may not have the option anymore.

Shoddy on people in the UK who have lost the free movement they had to live, work, travel around the eu without restrictions

Shoddy on businesses, including haulage who will be held up at a number of border stops because they have lost free movement.

The whole premise of free movement is goods and people. The government doesn't want that.

I have no issues with it, though its not perfect.

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Post by beninho Tue May 19, 2020 2:09 am

I do accept that I'm in a minority in the UK. And that we have a country who wants to proceed down this route. Still think brexit is going to be an absolute sh£throw though.

A question for the Sr boys. What happens if the person loses their job, or has a child, do they get deported? What if the child has an English father?

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Post by super_realist Tue May 19, 2020 2:11 am

If you have the right to work here I don't think we should be deporting anyone.
My stance is ONLY that we should not be admitting anyone who doesn't add anything to the country, I'm not sure why you would.

In regards to freedom of movement, I'm absolutely fine with that for business and individuals, just not for those who add nothing to any country.

I'd go further in that I would be happy to have freedom of movement for the entire world if there is a need for people and if they have the skills we require.

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Post by beninho Tue May 19, 2020 2:19 am

Thats the thing with FOM. If you are following the treaty rights, you should be fine. Though there are plenty who aren't, but the government doesn't enforce any action.

There's a story, about how border control rounded up lots of rough sleepers in London to deport. It turned out, lots where working, just couldn't afford accommodation and weren't priority for council assistance. Iost a court case, and I think, it put off the government.

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Post by super_realist Tue May 19, 2020 2:22 am

Have to admit though if I was an immigrant the last country in Northern Europe I would want to come to is Britain, absolute toilet of a place.

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Post by navyblueshorts Tue May 19, 2020 4:44 am

beninho wrote:I'm  not here to argue or debate.

I just think that removing FOM is pretty shoddy on a number of people. And don't like people looking down on people just because they don't earn a pre agreed figure.

Also, think a lot of people don't understand treaty rights.

Don't think its anything to celebrate.
Laugh
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Post by navyblueshorts Tue May 19, 2020 4:46 am

super_realist wrote:Have to admit though if I was an immigrant the last country in Northern Europe I would want to come to is Britain, absolute toilet of a place.
Seriously, why don't you sling your hook to some Scandinavian Utopia?
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Post by super_realist Tue May 19, 2020 4:51 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:Have to admit though if I was an immigrant the last country in Northern Europe I would want to come to is Britain, absolute toilet of a place.
Seriously, why don't you sling your hook to some Scandinavian Utopia?

If I was fluent in one of the languages I would and unfortunately my company no longer have an office there.

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Post by navyblueshorts Tue May 19, 2020 4:53 am

super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:Have to admit though if I was an immigrant the last country in Northern Europe I would want to come to is Britain, absolute toilet of a place.
Seriously, why don't you sling your hook to some Scandinavian Utopia?

If I was fluent in one of the languages I would and unfortunately my company no longer have an office there.
Learn one. Surely you have the time just now?
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Post by navyblueshorts Tue May 19, 2020 4:54 am

It's not like they aren't fluent in English either, so is fluency in their language actually an issue? You can always learn once you're there.
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Post by Soul Requiem Tue May 19, 2020 4:57 am

It will be interesting to see what the care home statistics are for the week ending the 15th, we're now at a point where excess deaths in that environment pretty much equal deaths attributed to coronavirus.

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Post by super_realist Tue May 19, 2020 4:58 am

navyblueshorts wrote:It's not like they aren't fluent in English either, so is fluency in their language actually an issue? You can always learn once you're there.

My language skills are already half decent in the language and I would pick it up quick, but most companies work in the local language as the business language so unless you get a transfer from the company you work for or the business language is English its not easy.
I was due to move there 18 months ago but the company restructured. Mind you, Edinburgh isn't a bad place to be, certainly rather be here than London, Birmingham etc.

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Post by super_realist Tue May 19, 2020 4:59 am

Soul Requiem wrote:It will be interesting to see what the care home statistics are for the week ending the 15th, we're now at a point where excess deaths in that environment pretty much equal deaths attributed to coronavirus.

We must be virtually at a point of equity between covid deaths and covid collateral deaths.

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Post by dynamark Tue May 19, 2020 5:07 am

Some talk this morning that very elderly folk who may have serious dementia very poorly just cannot recognise and communicate their own situation and symptoms hence they just pass away without really presenting as a covid patient.
I just cannot imagine going into a care home under any circumstances must be a very difficult decision for all involved.

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Post by JAS Tue May 19, 2020 6:59 am

beninho wrote:I'm  not here to argue or debate.

I just think that removing FOM is pretty shoddy on a number of people. And don't like people looking down on people just because they don't earn a pre agreed figure.

Also, think a lot of people don't understand treaty rights.

Don't think its anything to celebrate.

What I'd like to know is....who the hell told migrant workers (you know the ones in dinghies crossing the channel that the Daily Fail loves to demonise) that Britain is the promised land of milk and honey. Eh, its mostly cold, wet, expensive and increasingly unwelcoming.

On the other hand, if a migrant, under their own steam can cross a continent and a 22 mile wide stretch of water containing one of the worlds busiest shipping lanes then we are talking about people with a helluva lot of persistence, resilience and determination. That would make them very employable in most employers eyes. They wouldn't initially have the CV to snare them a £25k+ a year job so what we are effectively doing is blocking off tomorrows entrepreneurs. Wasn't Steve Jobs the son of a Syrian migrant to the U.S.?

Of course the whole situation is a manufactured charade and you have to ask yourself... Who are trafficking these people across a continent (the odd one may have done it all on foot but I'd hazard a guess that most are trafficked)? What is their objective? Who is paying? Penniless refugees or organised criminal gangs? Then you get to the next question...Do criminal gangs have more clout than governments because lets face it, it could all be stopped if the intra-governmental will was there. Global corporation backed right wing populist governments are two faced to the highest degree, they look one way and denounce and demonise immigration stirring up the insecurities of the lower paid working class, then look the other way to allow cheap labour in to undercut indigenous workers. It's the ultimate manifestation of divide and rule and it works a treat (for them)

Whilst I don't have any strong view either way about FOM, I don't really object to it, I do think there is an optimum number of people for each country to have that allows it to flourish and prosper from a societal and economic perspective and I think that the UK may be at the top end of that number, maybe a bit over it. However I think abruptly stopping FOM is a big step in the direction of isolationism and that's not great either.

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Post by super_realist Tue May 19, 2020 7:08 am

JAS, many immigrants do jobs which the "indigenous" population simply don't want to do, rather than undercutting them. Fruit picking, agriculture, care homes, restaurants, hospitality etc are jobs which many a Brit will simply turn their nose up at and I don't really see in these industries they are really taking jobs away from anyone.

Personally I'd rather have a hotel run by European immigrants than deadbeat Brits with no work ethic.

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Post by McLaren Tue May 19, 2020 8:15 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:Have to admit though if I was an immigrant the last country in Northern Europe I would want to come to is Britain, absolute toilet of a place.
Seriously, why don't you sling your hook to some Scandinavian Utopia?

I know this wasn't aimed at me, but it might please you to know that I have raised the prospect of moving to a scandi country with my wife in recent months.
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Post by super_realist Tue May 19, 2020 8:26 am

McLaren wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:Have to admit though if I was an immigrant the last country in Northern Europe I would want to come to is Britain, absolute toilet of a place.
Seriously, why don't you sling your hook to some Scandinavian Utopia?

I know this wasn't aimed at me, but it might please you to know that I have raised the prospect of moving to a scandi country with my wife in recent months.

On what basis Mac?
Which one and what would you do there?

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Post by McLaren Tue May 19, 2020 8:43 am

On what basis? Because I fancy giving it a go.

Which one and what would you do there? Either Denmark or Sweden. And I would be happy to do whatever job I could get.

I thought you would approve given you have considered it yourself.
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Post by super_realist Tue May 19, 2020 8:53 am

McLaren wrote:On what basis? Because I fancy giving it a go.

Which one and what would you do there? Either Denmark or Sweden. And I would be happy to do whatever job I could get.

I thought you would approve given you have considered it yourself.

I've seriously considered it Mac, but it sounds like you haven't considered the difficulties involved.

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Post by McLaren Tue May 19, 2020 8:55 am

super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:On what basis? Because I fancy giving it a go.

Which one and what would you do there? Either Denmark or Sweden. And I would be happy to do whatever job I could get.

I thought you would approve given you have considered it yourself.

I've seriously considered it Mac, but it sounds like you haven't considered the difficulties involved.

Based on what? The two lines of info I gave you.
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Post by super_realist Tue May 19, 2020 8:57 am

McLaren wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:On what basis? Because I fancy giving it a go.

Which one and what would you do there? Either Denmark or Sweden. And I would be happy to do whatever job I could get.

I thought you would approve given you have considered it yourself.

I've seriously considered it Mac, but it sounds like you haven't considered the difficulties involved.

Based on what? The two lines of info I gave you.

The naivety of thinking you could just swan over there and get a job.

You've claimed to have worked abroad before, what country was that and how did you cope?

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Post by McLaren Tue May 19, 2020 9:03 am

Super

Without going into details I coped fine and moving to scandi would be much easier then where I moved to last time.

And all you need to know is that the thing preventing the move would be convincing my wife. Job, visa, finance etc would all be a formality.
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Post by super_realist Tue May 19, 2020 9:06 am

Ha ha, sure it would Mac. I'd love to see someone with your low income try to rent somewhere decent and pay taxes in Denmark or Sweden.

As for the last time you claim to have done it I don't recall it being an independent move, wasn't it with your parents or as some sort of seasonal work?

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Post by McLaren Tue May 19, 2020 9:09 am

Super

I haven't lived with my parents since I left for uni in the mid 00's and lived abroud for two years, if that counts as seasonal in your eyes.

Also you forget I have a Edinburgh flat (in nice area) I could sell which would go a long way to getting a flat in most cities in Europe. But honestly I doubt we would have to sell it.
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Post by super_realist Tue May 19, 2020 9:11 am

What country did you live in for two years?

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Post by westisbest Tue May 19, 2020 9:11 am

Good luck to you Mac.thumbsup

Just a question Super Realist.

Why the negativity on Mac, you seem to put him down a lot.
Has he done anything to upset you?

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Post by super_realist Tue May 19, 2020 9:14 am

westisbest wrote:Good luck to you Mac.thumbsup

Just a question Super Realist.

Why the negativity on Mac, you seem to put him down a lot.
Has he done anything to upset you?

I suspect a lot of what he says is utter fabrication.
We have been adversaries here since it began in about 2006-7

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Post by McLaren Tue May 19, 2020 9:19 am

Super

As you know I reckon revealing that level of detail would remove my anonymity. If you really want to know then PM your whatsapp or email and we can chat there but I just don't think my persona on here would be viewed well by my golf club.
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Post by super_realist Tue May 19, 2020 9:20 am

McLaren wrote:Super

As you know I reckon revealing that level of detail would remove my anonymity. If you really want to know then PM your whatsapp or email and we can chat there but I just don't think my persona on here would be viewed well by my golf club.

You think rather a lot of yourself if you think any club would be looking or even care what one of its members wrote on a board.

It's just the name of a country, hardly going to identify you.


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Post by McLaren Tue May 19, 2020 9:20 am

westisbest wrote:Good luck to you Mac.:thumbsup:

Just a question Super Realist.

Why the negativity on Mac, you seem to put him down a lot.
Has he done anything to upset you?

I think super just can't accept that my financial situation has changed since I was a student getting the bus to the course. The fact I got a bus to the braids over ten years ago seems to form the basis for everything he thinks about me.
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Post by super_realist Tue May 19, 2020 9:22 am

McLaren wrote:
westisbest wrote:Good luck to you Mac.thumbsup

Just a question Super Realist.

Why the negativity on Mac, you seem to put him down a lot.
Has he done anything to upset you?

I think super just can't accept that my financial situation has changed since I was a student getting the bus to the course. The fact I got a bus to the braids over ten years ago seems to form the basis for everything he thinks about me.

Wrong again Mac, it was only a couple of years ago that you claimed you know no one who earned close to 30k.

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Post by McLaren Tue May 19, 2020 9:25 am

Well thankfully the reality of my financial situation isn't determined by what you think was said on a golf forum two years ago.
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Post by super_realist Tue May 19, 2020 9:29 am

McLaren wrote:Well thankfully the reality of my financial situation isn't determined by what you think was said on a golf forum two years ago.

Well, there's a lot of your reality which seems unlikely based on what you say on a golf forum.

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Post by McLaren Tue May 19, 2020 9:35 am

Fair enough if you think that. But If I am so untrustworthy what is the point in constantly asking me about my life if you just dismiss what you find out?
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Post by Soul Requiem Tue May 19, 2020 9:35 am

Who actually cares about the private life of an anonymous internet poster?

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Post by super_realist Tue May 19, 2020 9:36 am

McLaren wrote:Fair enough if you think that. But If I am so untrustworthy what is the point in constantly asking me about my life if you just dismiss what you find out?

Interesting to probe a Walter Mitty character.

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