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Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

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Post by super_realist Tue 19 May 2020, 7:58 am

First topic message reminder :

I'm fine with immigration of people who bring value to the country in one way or another, who wouldn't be? What I'm not in favour of is people who bring nothing to the country in terms of skills, education, money etc. I wouldn't expect the many millions of useless Britons to be able to go the other way either just for balance.

What policy is has actively being engaged to stop people of a particular race unable to enter the country anyway? I've not seen any.


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Post by JAS Wed 20 May 2020, 9:27 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:Have to admit though if I was an immigrant the last country in Northern Europe I would want to come to is Britain, absolute toilet of a place.
Seriously, why don't you sling your hook to some Scandinavian Utopia?


...To which the simple answer is that most of them are center left, high tax, high spend economies that run reasonably successfully, Super wouldn't fit in!!

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Post by super_realist Wed 20 May 2020, 9:37 am

JAS wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:Have to admit though if I was an immigrant the last country in Northern Europe I would want to come to is Britain, absolute toilet of a place.
Seriously, why don't you sling your hook to some Scandinavian Utopia?


...To which the simple answer is that most of them are center left, high tax, high spend economies that run reasonably successfully, Super wouldn't fit in!!

I've probably been to them more than any other person on this board JAS (although I'm aware you were in Malmo for a while)
I used to work for one of the biggest companies in Denmark so was over there all the time.
Nothing wrong with centre left by the way (even though they all use PR) just not a fan of crackpot Corbyn left. As for high tax, fine with that too considering how much more they earn over there and its worth it for the pension.
I just don't want to pay more tax and get nothing for it which is the case here.

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Post by JAS Wed 20 May 2020, 10:38 am

super_realist wrote:
JAS wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:Have to admit though if I was an immigrant the last country in Northern Europe I would want to come to is Britain, absolute toilet of a place.
Seriously, why don't you sling your hook to some Scandinavian Utopia?


...To which the simple answer is that most of them are center left, high tax, high spend economies that run reasonably successfully, Super wouldn't fit in!!

I've probably been to them more than any other person on this board JAS (although I'm aware you were in Malmo for a while)
I used to work for one of the biggest companies in Denmark so was over there all the time.
Nothing wrong with centre left by the way (even though they all use PR) just not a fan of crackpot Corbyn left. As for high tax, fine with that too considering how much more they earn over there and its worth it for the pension.
I just don't want to pay more tax and get nothing for it which is the case here.

It was mostly Helsingborg for the 3 months I was there Super, I was only in Malmo a week so I've only seen a very small corner of Sweden really and all I've seen of Denmark is basically Copenhagen Airport on a weekly basis and a day trip across from Helsingborg to Helsingor on the ferry to see Kronebourg Castle. Bit of shame it was only 3 months and probably the worst 3 months I could have picked (Jan-Mar) as I reckon that corner of Sweden would actually be quite pleasant in the summer.

Kind of surprised you say there nothing wrong with the centre left, that's not how the majority of you posts come across, but hey...some probably think I come across as a raving commie. So it's easy to misjudge peoples internet persona.

I don't think anyone, regardless of their left/right compass wants to pay more tax than they have to. The trouble is it's not a simple binary argument is it? As soon as you start trying to define "have to" the left and right sides of the equation begin to part company.

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Post by Soul Requiem Wed 20 May 2020, 10:46 am

JAS wrote:

Kind of surprised you say there nothing wrong with the centre left, that's not how the majority of you posts come across, but hey...some probably think I come across as a raving commie. So it's easy to misjudge peoples internet persona.


I would actually yes to an extent (whilst knowing you are not) but at the same time I appreciate that I come across as being far more right wing than I actually am. The two politicians have the upmost respect for are Yvette Cooper and Hilary Benn (his father was much the same in that respect, I didn't agree much with Tony but he was articulate and respectful) whilst someone like Mark Francois is as equally embarrassing as a Jeremy Corbyn or John McDonnell. I voted Labour back in 2005 and in local elections have always voted Lib Dem who run a council far better than either of the big two.

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Post by super_realist Wed 20 May 2020, 11:00 am

I think it's pretty obvious that the only government's which work are those which are centre left or centre right, extremes of either simply don't work at all.

As for tax, I genuinely don't mind paying more provided I see something for it or that general conditions for everyone are improving.
Most people down south probably don't realise that those in Scotland pay more tax than the rest of the UK, I wouldn't mind but there is no tangible benefit to that extra money I pay, which to put it in perspective amounts about 3k a year , not an inconsiderable amount.

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Post by JAS Wed 20 May 2020, 11:28 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
JAS wrote:

Kind of surprised you say there nothing wrong with the centre left, that's not how the majority of you posts come across, but hey...some probably think I come across as a raving commie. So it's easy to misjudge peoples internet persona.


I would actually yes to an extent (whilst knowing you are not) but at the same time I appreciate that I come across as being far more right wing than I actually am. The two politicians have the upmost respect for are Yvette Cooper and Hilary Benn (his father was much the same in that respect, I didn't agree much with Tony but he was articulate and respectful) whilst someone like Mark Francois is as equally embarrassing as a Jeremy Corbyn or John McDonnell. I voted Labour back in 2005 and in local elections have always voted Lib Dem who run a council far better than either of the big two.

Crikey Soul, I had you even further right than Super!! I thought old Tony was as sharp as a pin, didn't always agree with what he said but his heart was always in the right place. Having said that, had he ever been leader he'd have met the same catastrophic electoral fate as Foot and Corbyn. It's quite clear now that there is a line in the sand heading toward the left beyond which the British public would NEVER go. If the British people collectively thought Corbyn and his policy proposals was a bigger problem than 10 years of austerity and counting then that there is the die well and truly cast. The Left of the Labour Party has to accept that and learn how to work with it.

I do think the whole left/right thing is just labelling to simplify the arguments and to be fair most of the arguments are simply NOT simple. If you look at economists that have shaped political thinking (say for example Marx, Keynes, Smith, Friedman) I'd plump myself closest to Keynes and condemn the rest of them but actually every single one of them has at least something useful to say that shouldn't be discarded. Obviously I'd have most disdain for Friedman but to be fair he was floating the idea of universal basic income back in the 60s (albeit under the guise of negative income tax). There's also a quote (unfortunately I can't remember it off the top of my head) from Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations where if you you were just given the quote and asked who said it and had a multiple choice answer list of the 4 names above 90% would say Karl Marx.

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Post by super_realist Wed 20 May 2020, 11:31 am

Where do you stand on UBI? I heard a plank from the SNP trying to talk about it last week but it sounded a truly terrible idea to me, at least in the way he had set it out as if it would immediately cure poverty and reliance on benefits.
I'm sure it would work somewhere, but can't see it working in the UK. Trials didn't go too well in Finland, so don't see why or how it could work here.

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Post by Soul Requiem Wed 20 May 2020, 11:43 am

JAS wrote:

Crikey Soul, I had you even further right than Super!! I thought old Tony was as sharp as a pin, didn't always agree with what he said but his heart was always in the right place. Having said that, had he ever been leader he'd have met the same catastrophic electoral fate as Foot and Corbyn. It's quite clear now that there is a line in the sand heading toward the left beyond which the British public would NEVER go. If the British people collectively thought Corbyn and his policy proposals was a bigger problem than 10 years of austerity and counting then that there is the die well and truly cast. The Left of the Labour Party has to accept that and learn how to work with it.

I do think the whole left/right thing is just labelling to simplify the arguments and to be fair most of the arguments are simply NOT simple. If you look at economists that have shaped political thinking (say for example Marx, Keynes, Smith, Friedman) I'd plump myself closest to Keynes and condemn the rest of them but actually every single one of them has at least something useful to say that shouldn't be discarded. Obviously I'd have most disdain for Friedman but to be fair he was floating the idea of universal basic income back in the 60s (albeit under the guise of negative income tax). There's also a quote (unfortunately I can't remember it off the top of my head) from Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations where if you you were just given the quote and asked who said it and had a multiple choice answer list of the 4 names above 90% would say Karl Marx.

During the 80's Labour were on a highway to nowhere regardless of who they had as leader, love her or loathe her but Thatcher was an almost immovable political beast during that time which also became her undoing in the 90's. You probably won't be shocked to hear that Friedman is the person i'm most aligned to, i'm economic liberal as well as someone who doesn't have children so it suits my personal situation quite well.

I'll openly admit to quite liking Johnson and would likely have voted for him regardless but my vote in both 2017 and 2019 were as much anti Corbyn than they were pro Tory, the western world is fairly right wing so anything overly left wing will be immediately dismissed as a socialist wet dream.

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Post by westisbest Wed 20 May 2020, 11:48 am

Went to Copenhagen once to see Sweden Ireland. 2 nights. Really good trip. Saw some of the city. Good craic between both sets of fans.

Very attractive woman. The locals were very friendly.

Bloody cold though. But used to that.

Wouldn’t mind going back, or going to Denmark.

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Post by JAS Wed 20 May 2020, 11:49 am

super_realist wrote:Where do you stand on UBI? I heard a plank from the SNP trying to talk about it last week but it sounded a truly terrible idea to me, at least in the way he had set it out as if it would immediately cure poverty and reliance on benefits.
I'm sure it would work somewhere, but can't see it working in the UK. Trials didn't go too well in Finland, so don't see why or how it could work here.

Well initially it sounds like a bit of a commie idea (not helped for me by the first person I heard elucidate it was the former Greek finance minister Varoufakis). But actually if somebody like Friedman was trying to promote it then maybe its not as extreme left an idea after all. I think the argument for it is being greatly enhanced now i.e. this year and what is happening now.

Many people have no money, ok the government is effectively paying 80% of the wages of millions which if you think about it is actually a partial implementation of it). If people have no money over a sustained period then spending plummets, because spending plummets many other businesses fail so even more people have no money, vicious spiral, how does a society recover from that? Whereas if UBI was in place, people would have at least some money, they could spend, the economy could move forwards.

The main resistance to it as I see it is that people are afraid of radical change, governments too are generally averse to radical change for fear of failure. The other problem with it is that most people would view it as supplementing current welfare provision rather than replacing it. To me if it was to be implemented it would have to a) replace current welfare provision b) dovetail into the taxation system in a way that everyone (employed and unemployed) could stay incentivised. I'd say b) would be so difficult to achieve that UBI won't see the light of day any time soon.


Last edited by JAS on Wed 20 May 2020, 12:00 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typo)

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Post by JAS Wed 20 May 2020, 11:56 am

westisbest wrote:Went to Copenhagen once to see Sweden Ireland. 2 nights. Really good trip. Saw some of the city. Good craic between both sets of fans.

Very attractive woman. The locals were very friendly.

Bloody cold though. But used to that.

Wouldn’t mind going back, or going to Denmark.

Must admit I always planned to go back for a long weekend in the summer, 3 years on and I still haven't!! I found it was full of stunning women too but in Jan through March they were obviously very well wrapped up :-(. I was told that Helsingborg is classed as the Swedish riviera and on summer days the beaches are pretty packed.

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Post by super_realist Wed 20 May 2020, 11:57 am

That's the point though. The SNP moron was claiming that 10k per year would eradicate the need for benefits. That's clearly complete crud.

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Post by westisbest Wed 20 May 2020, 12:03 pm

Sorry Stockholm. Doh

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Post by JAS Wed 20 May 2020, 12:03 pm

super_realist wrote:That's the point though. The SNP moron was claiming that 10k per year would eradicate the need for benefits. That's clearly complete crud.

In what way? Do you mean you'd think it was crud that Willie could get £10k for doing SFA but Jimmy next door was working 40 hours a week for £10.5k?

Or is £10k fiscally unaffordable

Or is £10k an insult to try and live on?

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Post by super_realist Wed 20 May 2020, 12:07 pm

I meant that a payment of 10k is not sufficient money to eradicate benefits.
Lots of people on benefits receive a great deal more than that.

He also tried to claim that if you give that 10k to someone like JK Rowling then you'll get all of it back in tax, which of course you won't.

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Post by super_realist Wed 20 May 2020, 12:12 pm

westisbest wrote:Sorry Stockholm. Doh

Stockholm is beautiful and very nice and warm in summer, but then so are Oslo and Copenhagen too.

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Post by I'm never wrong Wed 20 May 2020, 12:12 pm

westisbest wrote:Very attractive woman.

What happens in Copenhagen, stays in Copenhagen.......or even Stockholm

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Post by super_realist Wed 20 May 2020, 12:14 pm

I'm never wrong wrote:Very attractive woman.

Just one?

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Post by I'm never wrong Wed 20 May 2020, 12:19 pm

That was my point Super...

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Post by westisbest Wed 20 May 2020, 12:42 pm

super_realist wrote:
I'm never wrong wrote:Very attractive woman.

Just one?

Plural

Well I was pissed most of the weekend Wink

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Post by McLaren Wed 20 May 2020, 12:52 pm

super_realist wrote:
I'm never wrong wrote:Very attractive woman.

Just one?

Stil one more than you have ever sampled.
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Post by super_realist Wed 20 May 2020, 1:12 pm

McLaren wrote:
super_realist wrote:
I'm never wrong wrote:Very attractive woman.

Just one?

Stil one more than you have ever sampled.

Not true actually Mac. Had a Danish girlfriend for a while.

Anyway, I see the thread went over your pea brain again as it wasn't referring to "one woman" but that it ought to have been pluralised to account for the many stunning women you see in Scandinavian cities which I'm sure you can attest to.

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Post by dynamark Wed 20 May 2020, 1:23 pm

My overriding thought re scandi is that it is super expensive maybe 3 x mid Europe prices.Never been myself but a friend on cruise ship couldn't wait to get back on the ship after a day on land fish and chip lunch for about £50 and a mate who goes on business confirmed.But are the income levels that much higher.I believe Japan is a similar level.

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Post by McLaren Wed 20 May 2020, 1:28 pm

Super

Do you check out scandi categories on porn sites?
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Post by navyblueshorts Wed 20 May 2020, 1:38 pm

McLaren wrote:Super

Do you check out scandi categories on porn sites?
Jesus wept.

**** this. Diggers? If you're out there, I understand you 100%.
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Post by super_realist Wed 20 May 2020, 1:57 pm

dynamark wrote:My overriding thought re scandi is that it is super expensive maybe 3 x mid Europe prices.Never been myself but a friend on cruise ship couldn't wait to get back on the ship after a day on land fish and chip lunch for about £50 and a mate who goes on business confirmed.But are the income levels that much higher.I believe Japan is a similar level.

It's certainly not 3 times Europe prices. It's true I've paid £13 quid for a pint and £100 quid for a very simple pub type meal for two but those are either centre of town or in some tourist hot spot in Norway only and covering a works meal for 10 isn't going to be cheap . Off the beaten track its not that dear.
A pint in Denmark is comparable to London and Sweden is about the same.

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Post by McLaren Wed 20 May 2020, 2:04 pm

Navy

To be fair it was going somewhere. Maybe not anywhere good though.
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Post by super_realist Wed 20 May 2020, 2:05 pm

McLaren wrote:Navy

To be fair it was going somewhere. Maybe not anywhere good though.

I didn't know it was a genre Mac.

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Post by McLaren Wed 20 May 2020, 2:19 pm

You can usually filter by nationality. Just don't filter by British. Shocked
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Post by McLaren Wed 20 May 2020, 2:25 pm

Super

One of your people has risen.

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-52733060

#notallincels
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Post by dynamark Wed 20 May 2020, 2:29 pm

Thanks Super if you want to get expensive try Switzerland at altitude that is eye watering.
Theres always tourist sites at a premium.

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Post by super_realist Wed 20 May 2020, 2:38 pm

dynamark wrote:Thanks Super if you want to get expensive try Switzerland at altitude that is eye watering.
Theres always tourist sites at a premium.

Switzerland is expensive for sure. Worth bearing in mind how expensive Britain is though.

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Post by JAS Wed 20 May 2020, 5:42 pm

super_realist wrote:I meant that a payment of 10k is not sufficient money to eradicate benefits.
Lots of people on benefits receive a great deal more than that.

He also tried to claim that if you give that 10k to someone like JK Rowling then you'll get all of it back in tax, which of course you won't.

I’m resisting being dragged into the Scandinavian women convo any further :-/

Meanwhile back on UBI, I do think most people think of it as being implemented without anything else changing, it simply wouldn’t/couldn’t be like that. It would have to be set at a realistic level, not quite enough to make dossers comfortable but enough to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table and an incentive to go look for work to supplement their basic income. Obviously there would be more spending money in the economy thus the layout on basic income could be offset by increased VAT income and higher tax rates on employment. It could be made to work if the will was there. I just can’t see any government with enough balls to carry it forward though.

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Post by super_realist Wed 20 May 2020, 7:06 pm

JAS wrote:
super_realist wrote:I meant that a payment of 10k is not sufficient money to eradicate benefits.
Lots of people on benefits receive a great deal more than that.

He also tried to claim that if you give that 10k to someone like JK Rowling then you'll get all of it back in tax, which of course you won't.

I’m resisting being dragged into the Scandinavian women convo any further :-/

Meanwhile back on UBI, I do think most people think of it as being implemented without anything else changing, it simply wouldn’t/couldn’t be like that. It would have to be set at a realistic level, not quite enough to make dossers comfortable but enough to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table and an incentive to go look for work to supplement their basic income. Obviously there would be more spending money in the economy thus the layout on basic income could be offset by increased VAT income and higher tax rates on employment. It could be made to work if the will was there. I just can’t see any government with enough balls to carry it forward though.

It will never happen. If there's 40million adults in the UK, that's 400 billion every single year. It might work in small rich countries, but not here.
The British attitude is wrong too, far too many people would just a spunk it up the wall.

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Post by pedro Thu 21 May 2020, 12:23 am

Scandi governments are shifting btw centre-left and centre-right every 4-5 years or so. Politics are generally centre-left though, regardless of who’s in charge. There’s a broad consensus of what the society should look like, with immigration being the only main discussion topic.
Don’t think super or mac should bother learning the language, as far as I know there’s no real need.
Salaries (after tax) and standard of living are generally better than in the UK, unless you are a top exec, investment banker or MP.

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Post by super_realist Thu 21 May 2020, 6:58 am

pedro wrote:Scandi governments are shifting btw centre-left and centre-right every 4-5 years or so. Politics are generally centre-left though, regardless of who’s in charge. There’s a broad consensus of what the society should look like, with immigration being the only main discussion topic.
Don’t think super or mac should bother learning the language, as far as I know there’s no real need.
Salaries (after tax) and standard of living are generally better than in the UK, unless you are a top exec, investment banker or MP.

I already do speak decent Norwegian but am far from being fluent, good enough to read the paper and have a conversation.

Being someone who actively searches for jobs there and who has worked in the Norwegian office of companies I have worked for Norwegian is widely spoken in offices and the majority of job adverts are in Norwegian.
I've been to Norway about a dozen times and been to Denmark probably 3x that many. Learning the language in any country makes life considerably easier and it would be rude and silly not to. Why wouldn't you want to speak the local language?

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Post by I'm never wrong Thu 21 May 2020, 7:29 am

Seems the peoples priorities are to get a decent meal now that some takeaways have reopened. Long queue at McDonalds

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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 21 May 2020, 8:01 am

If my cooking was at such levels that I looked forward to and would queue for a McDonalds then i'd have to really re-evaluate my life choices.

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Post by super_realist Thu 21 May 2020, 8:02 am

I'm never wrong wrote:Seems the peoples priorities are to get a decent meal now that some takeaways have reopened. Long queue at McDonalds

Decent meal and Mcdonalds is an oxymoron.

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Post by I'm never wrong Thu 21 May 2020, 8:20 am

super_realist wrote:Decent meal and Mcdonalds is an oxymoron.
Was on a fly drive in Canada a few years ago, and ended up in a logging town. Asked a local for a restaurant to eat in the evening, and he suggested McDonalds. Luckily when i checked into the hotel, they had a restaurant on site.

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Post by westisbest Thu 21 May 2020, 8:34 am

Do like a good  sausage and egg McMuffin meal.

Big Mac meal.

Yeah, let’s do it, when they re open. All the way baby, all the way.

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Post by beninho Thu 21 May 2020, 8:34 am

I like the occasional maccas. Doubt I'd queue for an hour though. Kids love the occasional chicken mcnugget happy meal. Nowt wrong with it at all.

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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 21 May 2020, 8:36 am

beninho wrote:I like the occasional maccas. Doubt I'd queue for an hour though.

I used grab one before my weekly trip to the cinema (oh how I miss that) if I was short on time but if I was having to wait longer than five minutes for food it really isn't worth the effort.

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Post by westisbest Thu 21 May 2020, 8:43 am

An hour is quite the wait in fairness, even for a maccies.

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Post by westisbest Thu 21 May 2020, 8:44 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
beninho wrote:I like the occasional maccas. Doubt I'd queue for an hour though.

I used grab one before my weekly trip to the cinema (oh how I miss that) if I was short on time but if I was having to wait longer than five minutes for food it really isn't worth the effort.

Looking forward to when the cinemas re open.
Was looking forward to seeing Top Gun.

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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 21 May 2020, 9:00 am

westisbest wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
beninho wrote:I like the occasional maccas. Doubt I'd queue for an hour though.

I used grab one before my weekly trip to the cinema (oh how I miss that) if I was short on time but if I was having to wait longer than five minutes for food it really isn't worth the effort.

Looking forward to when the cinemas re open.
Was looking forward to seeing Top Gun.

I was looking forward to Black Widow although Scar Jo isn't what she once was as that character. A Quiet Place 2 was likely to have been next, interesting to see where they can go with it after the first one but Tenet is the one i'm most looking forward to seeing, Christopher Nolan rarely if ever gets it wrong, he's probably the foremost auteur of the 21st century for me.

Last thing I managed to watch was Invisible Man which was pretty decent actually, Elisabeth Moss is more often than not very good in any role. 1917 was a bit of a disappointment for me, very well made film but the story telling was a bit lacking.

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Post by super_realist Thu 21 May 2020, 9:04 am

This has certainly given me the opportunity to watch more stuff I wouldn't normally watch (steady Mac). There's a lot of good foreign language crime drama on Netflix from Russia, South Korea, Finland, Sweden etc. Find it much harder to watch something which has been dubbed into English though like a bad Bruce Lee film.

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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 21 May 2020, 9:06 am

There's a Spanish film on Netflix called The Platform which was dubbed very well, thoroughly enjoyed that film.

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Post by dynamark Thu 21 May 2020, 9:46 am

When McD first started over here 30 plus years ago I'm sure they used to say if you hadnt been served in 3 minutes the meal was free .They must have dropped that rule

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Post by George1507 Thu 21 May 2020, 10:11 am

dynamark wrote:When McD first started over here 30 plus years ago I'm sure they used to say if you hadnt been served in 3 minutes the meal was free .They must have dropped that rule

Yes, they did. But people quickly figured out that you could request something special, and McDonalds was committed to making your order precisely. So if you ordered a ¼ pounder with extra onions, then it had to be made specially for you, and it usually took at least 3 minutes, so you got it for free.

Also McDonalds started in London in the 1970s, so 40 plus years ago. Time flies when you are getting fat.

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