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Post by JuliusHMarx on Mon 25 May 2020, 7:48 pm

Self-isolating, social distancing, locked down thread split.

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Post by king_carlos on Mon 25 May 2020, 7:57 pm

At least driving tests can do away with reading out a nearby number plate to test the examinees eyesight prior to starting the test. Just hop in the car and drive for 30 minutes with a 4-year old in the back seat.

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Post by GSC on Mon 25 May 2020, 8:01 pm

Either they think we're incredibly stupid to buy this or they just think they don't have to justify themselves to the public.
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Post by Duty281 on Mon 25 May 2020, 8:06 pm

king_carlos wrote:At least driving tests can do away with reading out a nearby number plate to test the examinees eyesight prior to starting the test. Just hop in the car and drive for 30 minutes with a 4-year old in the back seat.

Spoiler:
The Covid-19 serious chat thread EY4LrvMWkAAMQ4W?format=jpg&name=large

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 25 May 2020, 8:40 pm

Samo wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
Samo wrote:“You blame the media for this mess you’ve put the government in” take that Laugh

Do you know who that guy was? He was good.

I believe it was Jason Groves from the Daily Mail.

Cheers, Samo. It might surprise some that the Mail have been very critical of the Government's handling of the pandemic and really laid into Johnson and Cummings in this morning's edition.

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 25 May 2020, 8:43 pm

Duty281 wrote:
king_carlos wrote:At least driving tests can do away with reading out a nearby number plate to test the examinees eyesight prior to starting the test. Just hop in the car and drive for 30 minutes with a 4-year old in the back seat.

Spoiler:
The Covid-19 serious chat thread EY4LrvMWkAAMQ4W?format=jpg&name=large

Brilliant, Carlos and Duty. clap clap

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 25 May 2020, 8:54 pm

Duty281 wrote:If she can drive, it makes Cummings' odd story about driving for 30 minutes to test his eyesight even odder.

Johnson's just said it's vital to ensure we all follow the rules on social distancing. Doh

She can drive. Piers Morgan* has tweeted something from her going years back to confirm this.

* I find Morgan irritating on tv - too loud and too keen to interrupt. However, I like him on twitter - says it straight and usually to strong effect.

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 25 May 2020, 9:00 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I agree that the death toll is the biggest scandal, the other things are insignificant by comparison, but what is done is done, we need to minimise the future deaths as best we can.

The Cummings scandal though will run and run, just too many wholes in the story and the press will not let this one go, even the Tory press.

It is probably time now to start bringing the government to account for the failings in their initial response:

Lockdown too late.

Not closing airports or making quarantine mandatory from day one.

PPE, all aspects

Testing - what a mess.



Watching Boris now, he has seen the light, he is starting to distance himself from Cummings, "I did know about his trips from home, but I had a lot on my plate".

The only reason that we are getting the numbers down is because people HAVE OBEYED THE GUIDELINES, except Cummings of course. His own scientific advisers are saying that Cummings has blown a hole in the guidelines.

Hi WELL-PAST-IT - I'm with you there. Another massive and shameful failure from outset was overlooking care homes. It was the media who finally forced the concentration upon them. Cummings should keep that in mind when he next slags them off.

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 25 May 2020, 9:07 pm

jimbopip wrote:Callme*, I don't think such an altruistic public servant should selflessly feel the need to fall on his sword just so you can have the pleasure of buying me a pint.

* You did say Callme Guildford didn't you? Thanks to Hilary Mantel for that one.

Jimbopip - still trying to work that one out but nonetheless happy to get you a pint if and when I'm back at the Oval. Ale Smile

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Post by jimbopip on Mon 25 May 2020, 11:13 pm

Wolf Hall.
Thomas Cronwell meets the courtier Henry Wriothesley who says, "Call me Rizzley."
Thereafter he is known to Cromwell's household as Callme.


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Post by Samo on Tue 26 May 2020, 4:19 am

guildfordbat wrote:
Samo wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
Samo wrote:“You blame the media for this mess you’ve put the government in” take that Laugh

Do you know who that guy was? He was good.

I believe it was Jason Groves from the Daily Mail.

Cheers, Samo. It might surprise some that the Mail have been very critical of the Government's handling of the pandemic and really laid into Johnson and Cummings in this morning's edition.

They’ve changed editors recently, and the new one (I forget his name) is far less forgiving than his predecessor.

Its also worth noting that Cummings stated that he wrote about pandemics and coronaviruses last year. However the only proof of this is on one of his blog posts from 2019 that just so happens to have been edited within the past month to include that part.

https://web.archive.org/web/diff/20200409151643/20200503060009/https://dominiccummings.com/2019/03/04/the-most-secure-bio-labs-routinely-make-errors-that-could-cause-a-global-pandemic-are-about-to-re-start-experiments-on-pathogens-engineered-to-make-them-mammalian-airborne-transmissible/

Text highlighted in blue is added text, yellow is deleted text.

Its this kind of engineered dishonesty that really bothers me.

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Post by guildfordbat on Tue 26 May 2020, 7:19 am

jimbopip wrote:Wolf Hall.
Thomas Cronwell meets the courtier Henry Wriothesley who says, "Call me Rizzley."
Thereafter he is known to Cromwell's household as Callme.


Would have raised a smile if an explanation hadn't been necessary - for which, mea culpa.


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Post by guildfordbat on Tue 26 May 2020, 7:21 am

Samo wrote:
GSC wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
Duty281 wrote:The one thing we've learnt from this is that if your eyesight is a bit dodgy, you should get in the car with your wife and child and take a 30 minute drive. Sound planning.

clap
Barnard Castle is like a 90 minute round trip from Durham  Laugh

No mention of the fact that that was also his wifes birthday..
.

This takes the Castle drive story way beyond credibility! I don't think the media have picked up on this sufficiently.

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Post by GSC on Tue 26 May 2020, 7:27 am

It's hard to take them to task for failing to pick up one specific hole in his story, there's only so much time in the day to pick apart all of them
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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Tue 26 May 2020, 8:27 am

It has been interesting to see reporters from the Mail lambasting Johnson and Cummings whist those from The Mail on Sunday have been very forgiving and making every excuse under the sun for them.

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Post by jimbopip on Tue 26 May 2020, 8:53 am

So, boys and girls, what did we learn yesterday?

If you are at your place of employment and your wife phones mid morning to say she is ill at home and thinks it is covid 19 what do you do?

YOU GO HOME IMMEDIATELY.

And after spending an hour or so with her and reaching the conclusion that you too are infected and that you will both collapse immenently, what do you do?

YOU RETURN TO YOUR PLACE OF EMPLOYMENT AND STAY THERE ALL DAY TELLING NO-ONE.

And after work?

YOU IGNORE GUIDELINES AND DRIVE 260 MILES FROM A LOCATION WITH AN R NUMBER3 TO ONE WITH A VERY LOW LEVEL OF INFECTION.

What do we do if after being infected our vision seems affected.

PUT YOUR FAMILY IN THE CAR AND DRIVE THIRTY MILES TO A LOCAL BEAUTY SPOT IN "ABOUT 30 MINUTES" , AVERAGE SPEED 60 MPH, JUST TO SEE IF YOU ARE ABLE TO DRIVE.

I'm no spring chicken, almost as ancient as Callme, I have an Honours Degree in Politics but I struggle to remember any British politician standing by someone who behaved as Cummings has and having the barefaced insolence to tell the British people yhat he would not dismiss him because he acted, "responsibly, legally and with integrity throughout."

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Post by GSC on Tue 26 May 2020, 9:44 am

The MP for Moray just resigned from his position in government so at least 1 of them has the integrity to do more than complain internally
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Post by GSC on Tue 26 May 2020, 9:51 am

Gove now claiming he goes driving to check his eyesight.

This explains half the drivers I see on the roads
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Post by Samo on Tue 26 May 2020, 10:21 am

The police have actually had to issue a statement telling people not to drive if their vision is impaired.

This is were we are now.

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Post by GSC on Tue 26 May 2020, 10:26 am

Fairly sure you have to inform the DVLA before driving if your eyesight is impaired. Not sure why I'm scrutinising it anyway
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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Tue 26 May 2020, 10:38 am

They are just digging a big hole for themselves and going deeper and deeper.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 26 May 2020, 10:41 am

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:Yes, I'm back. Whatever.

How dare the PM insult me, as a father, saying I'd do the same as Cummings?

Boris Johnson - utter Charlie, Uniform, November, Tango.

Cummings couldn't get sister to pick up sprog and take back to Durham? Cummings hasn't got anyone else to take sprog to Durham? What of those whose father in laws aren't minted and have a castle w/ spare properties in which to self-isolate? **** right off.

No admission, even, that on reflection, this was a mistake but that it was understandable re. child. Just barefaced FU response.

Absolutely spitting mad. **** the lot of them. Hancock, Sunak - the lot of them. I gave you lot the benefit of the doubt re. Covid based on where we were at start, you ****ing morons. You disgust me.

For me (not that I voted for them last time), but this is a Blair/Iraq moment for me - there's no way, no matter what they do now, that I'll vote for them next GE.

Sadly, there's nothing anyone can do. ~5 years, no election and no way of enforcing anything.

I hate to tell you that we told you what Johnson was like. As the saying does "I will promise you anything as long as I don't have to deliver". Boris has always from his early political days, throughout the Mayoral times and now stood up for the political elite and his friends whilst mouthing off about the inequalities of life and how unfair they were and how he was going to fix them. As long as it meant him spending lavish amounts on his friends (garden bridge), possible lovers ( Can't remember her name-Yank)and political backers (think of a large country off the coats of Japan) he will promise anything. He does not have a truthful bone in his body.

BRING BACK SPITTING IMAGE, JUST THINK OF WHAT THEY COULD DO WITH HIM.
With respect, this is one issue and doesn't necessarily make everything else a lie. That said, it's pretty much holed any faith I had in them below the waterline - how could it not? They just don't 'get' it and/or they don't give a damn.

Best I can say for Cummings is that he might actually believe he's done no wrong. If so, I can understand what he did. That said, it just makes him a minor sociopath, but it still doesn't put him on the right side of this argument.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 26 May 2020, 10:45 am

jimbopip wrote:Mr Bat, I  cannot believe that we now know going into lockdown a week earlier would have saved 30 000 lives and Boris isn't dangling from a lamppost.
He's got 5 years to spin his way out of it.
With respect (I'm going to wear this phrase out), of course locking down earlier would have saved more and 30k is just a stab in the dark that sounds good. Its a bit like saying bears sha-la-la-la in the woods. The question is why we didn't shut down earlier, and that's going to require an enquiry.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 26 May 2020, 10:50 am

Samo wrote:While Im glad more and more people are starting to realize that this government is a shambles, I can't help but wonder why its taken them so long?
I'm not sure that one man's self-entitled a-holery (and misguided defence by the PM) is evidence that everything else UKG does/has done is a 'shambles'.
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Post by lostinwales on Tue 26 May 2020, 10:53 am

Saw a comment over the weekend. Someone in Blair's government basically said that if you ever end up in a situation where the Guardian and Daily Mail agree then you have had it.

So much of the gaffs, failures and petty corruption that goes on can be forgotten because in general it happens to other people. Yes the money wasted is ours but it can be spun as just being the government's. The big problem with the Cummings fiasco is that it cuts right to the heart of the personal experiences of everyone, either directly or because we all know someone who it has.

Ultimately people will die because of this act.

The only people who are in a position to ignore the Cummings road trip are those invested in the government to the point where losing Cummings seems unthinkable, and the nutters who would claim lockdown was wrong from day one.

The killer paragraph in that Scottish minister's resignation letter
Douglas Ross wrote: I have constituents who didn't get to say goodbye to loved ones; families who could not mourn together; people who didn't visit sick relatives because they followed guidance of the government. I cannot in good faith tell them they were all wrong and one senior adviser to the government was right.

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Post by jimbopip on Tue 26 May 2020, 10:55 am

Mr Shorts, with all due respect, because pandemics have an exponential rate of infection it is mathematically possible to look at the figures and say "If we had done x when there were y people of infected then the total number of people would have been z instead of z times 4."

The 30 000 wasn't my figure, I got it from a BBC article quoting a study by a mathematical epidemiologist ( or some such job title) the point is it was a bona fide academic study not some sports fan ranting on a silly forum.

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Post by lostinwales on Tue 26 May 2020, 10:58 am

navyblueshorts wrote:...

Best I can say for Cummings is that he might actually believe he's done no wrong. If so, I can understand what he did. That said, it just makes him a minor sociopath, but it still doesn't put him on the right side of this argument.

I agree with this. It is not just the act itself though, it is how it has been presented. They might just have saved things had they gone down the 'great mistake under stress and very sorry' type of route. Instead they rewrite history to say what he did is OK and so undermine everything

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 26 May 2020, 10:59 am

Duty281 wrote:This would never have happened if Cameron was in charge. Sod Durham, he would have just left his kids in the nearest pub.
Laugh
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Post by jimbopip on Tue 26 May 2020, 11:09 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:While Im glad more and more people are starting to realize that this government is a shambles, I can't help but wonder why its taken them so long?
I'm not sure that one man's self-entitled a-holery (and misguided defence by the PM) is evidence that everything else UKG does/has done is a 'shambles'.

With respect, if you wanted a model of behaviour which is guaranteed to spread a virus and sustain a pandemic...how about this;

Leave your place of work, mid morning, to go home and see your wife who tells you she is ill. Both agree that you both are most likely infected.
Return to your place of work and tell no-one. Remain there to the end of your working day. How would you feel if someone at your place of work did that?
Immediately after work leave the epicentre of the infection (London) and drive with your wife who you believe to be ill to a part of the country hundreds of miles away which has a very low rate of infection.
Two weeks later when you are still feeling unwell (problems with vision) drive to a local beauty spot on your wife's birthday.

Navyblueshorts, that is as cut and dried a case of undermining the government's Stay Home campaign as you could wish to see.

What makes it indicative of the shambles that this government is is the way that Downing Street has refused to recognise how irresponsible his behaviour was and has spent so much time and effort orchestrating a campaign to keep him in his job.

People will die because they will think that his behaviour is "responsible, legal and (done with) integrity". The will think that because the Prime Minister said so : people will take a similar attitude to restrictions on their freedom of movement.
People will die.
If that is not a shambolic way to run the country what is?
With all due respect.



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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 26 May 2020, 11:14 am

jimbopip wrote:Mr Shorts, with all due respect, because pandemics have an exponential rate of infection it is mathematically possible to look at the figures and say "If we had done x when there were y people of infected then the total number of people would have been z instead of z times 4."

The 30 000 wasn't my figure, I got it from a BBC article quoting a study by a mathematical epidemiologist ( or some such job title) the point is it was a bona fide academic study not some sports fan ranting on a silly forum.
With respect, it's possible to model, yes. But a model is all it is. Sheisse in, scheisse out, as my engineer father might have said. You're saying it suggests saving 30k, or that 30k less would have been infected? Happy to agree that many, many more would have been prevented from getting infected but, to be clear, I don't think that's the issue really.
What was the reason we locked down when we did, and not earlier? If it was genuinely based on best advice at the time, tragic it may have been, but evil/stupid I don't think I can support. If it was Johnson's cavalier bravado? Yes, then I'm afraid I do think they'll have to face the music at some point. I'm afraid we'll all have to await the enquiry, but that probably won't clarify all that should be clarified.
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Post by guildfordbat on Tue 26 May 2020, 11:18 am

Samo wrote:The police have actually had to issue a statement telling people not to drive if their vision is impaired.

This is were we are now.

Really??? Astounding!!!

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 26 May 2020, 11:19 am

lostinwales wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:...

Best I can say for Cummings is that he might actually believe he's done no wrong. If so, I can understand what he did. That said, it just makes him a minor sociopath, but it still doesn't put him on the right side of this argument.

I agree with this. It is not just the act itself though, it is how it has been presented. They might just have saved things had they gone down the 'great mistake under stress and very sorry'  type of route. Instead they rewrite history to say what he did is OK and so undermine everything
Absolutely agree w/ this. I think people would still have been annoyed, but if their approach was "With hindsight, I might have handled this better and chosen a more sensible option etc", I think a lot of people might have understood better. The FU attitude and "No, I haven't even considered resignation" compounds the error.

TBH, I don't think there's any point in him going now. Damage done and any quitting now doesn't suggest a realisation of actual issue; just trying to right the ship for political gain. Screw them. He might actually be a good advisor and get a lot of things right. Who knows?

People (many of them) won't recall this (or give a damn) in ~5 years. Look at the effect of Blair/Iraq on the New Labour third term - f-all. Maybe this'll play more due to the fact it isn't 100s of thousands of Johnny Foreigner Iraqis dying this time?
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Post by guildfordbat on Tue 26 May 2020, 11:21 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:Yes, I'm back. Whatever.

How dare the PM insult me, as a father, saying I'd do the same as Cummings?

Boris Johnson - utter Charlie, Uniform, November, Tango.

Cummings couldn't get sister to pick up sprog and take back to Durham? Cummings hasn't got anyone else to take sprog to Durham? What of those whose father in laws aren't minted and have a castle w/ spare properties in which to self-isolate? **** right off.

No admission, even, that on reflection, this was a mistake but that it was understandable re. child. Just barefaced FU response.

Absolutely spitting mad. **** the lot of them. Hancock, Sunak - the lot of them. I gave you lot the benefit of the doubt re. Covid based on where we were at start, you ****ing morons. You disgust me.

For me (not that I voted for them last time), but this is a Blair/Iraq moment for me - there's no way, no matter what they do now, that I'll vote for them next GE.

Sadly, there's nothing anyone can do. ~5 years, no election and no way of enforcing anything.

I hate to tell you that we told you what Johnson was like. As the saying does "I will promise you anything as long as I don't have to deliver". Boris has always from his early political days, throughout the Mayoral times and now stood up for the political elite and his friends whilst mouthing off about the inequalities of life and how unfair they were and how he was going to fix them. As long as it meant him spending lavish amounts on his friends (garden bridge), possible lovers ( Can't remember her name-Yank)and political backers (think of a large country off the coats of Japan) he will promise anything. He does not have a truthful bone in his body.

BRING BACK SPITTING IMAGE, JUST THINK OF WHAT THEY COULD DO WITH HIM.
With respect, this is one issue and doesn't necessarily make everything else a lie. That said, it's pretty much holed any faith I had in them below the waterline - how could it not? They just don't 'get' it and/or they don't give a damn.

Best I can say for Cummings is that he might actually believe he's done no wrong. If so, I can understand what he did. That said, it just makes him a minor sociopath, but it still doesn't put him on the right side of this argument.

Navy - do you think that even Cummings can have belief in his Barnard Castle story?

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 26 May 2020, 11:24 am

jimbopip wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:While Im glad more and more people are starting to realize that this government is a shambles, I can't help but wonder why its taken them so long?
I'm not sure that one man's self-entitled a-holery (and misguided defence by the PM) is evidence that everything else UKG does/has done is a 'shambles'.

With respect, if you wanted a model of behaviour which is guaranteed to spread a virus and sustain a pandemic...how about this;

Leave your place of work, mid morning, to go home and see your wife who tells you she is ill. Both agree that you both are most likely infected.
Return to your place of work and tell no-one. Remain there to the end of your working day. How would you feel if someone at your place of work did that?
Immediately after work leave the epicentre of the infection (London) and drive with your wife who you believe to be ill to a part of the country hundreds of miles away which has a very low rate of infection.
Two weeks later when you are still feeling unwell (problems with vision) drive to a local beauty spot on your wife's birthday.

Navyblueshorts, that is as cut and dried a case of undermining the government's Stay Home campaign as you could wish to see.

What makes it indicative of the shambles that this government is is the way that Downing Street has refused to recognise how irresponsible his behaviour was and has spent so much time and effort orchestrating a campaign to keep him in his job.

People will die because they will think that his behaviour is "responsible, legal and (done with) integrity". The will think that because the Prime Minister said so : people will take a similar attitude to restrictions on their freedom of movement.
People will die.
If that is not a shambolic way to run the country what is?
With all due respect.


Take the point, but this is one issue, utterly screwed up though it is. I understand your political position, in general, and you're free to extrapolate to wider UKG behaviour. You suggested the entirety of UKG is a shambles. I might even agree w/ you more now than I did before this blew up, but I'm afraid I'm handicapped by my natural tendency to want something more concrete if I'm to tar all they do as scheisse.
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Post by lostinwales on Tue 26 May 2020, 11:25 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:...

Best I can say for Cummings is that he might actually believe he's done no wrong. If so, I can understand what he did. That said, it just makes him a minor sociopath, but it still doesn't put him on the right side of this argument.

I agree with this. It is not just the act itself though, it is how it has been presented. They might just have saved things had they gone down the 'great mistake under stress and very sorry'  type of route. Instead they rewrite history to say what he did is OK and so undermine everything
Absolutely agree w/ this. I think people would still have been annoyed, but if their approach was "With hindsight, I might have handled this better and chosen a more sensible option etc", I think a lot of people might have understood better. The FU attitude and "No, I haven't even considered resignation" compounds the error.

TBH, I don't think there's any point in him going now. Damage done and any quitting now doesn't suggest a realisation of actual issue; just trying to right the ship for political gain. Screw them. He might actually be a good advisor and get a lot of things right. Who knows?

People (many of them) won't recall this (or give a damn) in ~5 years. Look at the effect of Blair/Iraq on the New Labour third term - f-all. Maybe this'll play more due to the fact it isn't 100s of thousands of Johnny Foreigner Iraqis dying this time?

Johnny Foreigner dying is a lot easier to deal with, even if we have had that same message rammed down our throat by the Tories and the left wing of the Labour party. What Cummings did hits many of us at a personal level. I don't think it will be forgotten easily.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 26 May 2020, 11:28 am

guildfordbat wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:Yes, I'm back. Whatever.

How dare the PM insult me, as a father, saying I'd do the same as Cummings?

Boris Johnson - utter Charlie, Uniform, November, Tango.

Cummings couldn't get sister to pick up sprog and take back to Durham? Cummings hasn't got anyone else to take sprog to Durham? What of those whose father in laws aren't minted and have a castle w/ spare properties in which to self-isolate? **** right off.

No admission, even, that on reflection, this was a mistake but that it was understandable re. child. Just barefaced FU response.

Absolutely spitting mad. **** the lot of them. Hancock, Sunak - the lot of them. I gave you lot the benefit of the doubt re. Covid based on where we were at start, you ****ing morons. You disgust me.

For me (not that I voted for them last time), but this is a Blair/Iraq moment for me - there's no way, no matter what they do now, that I'll vote for them next GE.

Sadly, there's nothing anyone can do. ~5 years, no election and no way of enforcing anything.

I hate to tell you that we told you what Johnson was like. As the saying does "I will promise you anything as long as I don't have to deliver". Boris has always from his early political days, throughout the Mayoral times and now stood up for the political elite and his friends whilst mouthing off about the inequalities of life and how unfair they were and how he was going to fix them. As long as it meant him spending lavish amounts on his friends (garden bridge), possible lovers ( Can't remember her name-Yank)and political backers (think of a large country off the coats of Japan) he will promise anything. He does not have a truthful bone in his body.

BRING BACK SPITTING IMAGE, JUST THINK OF WHAT THEY COULD DO WITH HIM.
With respect, this is one issue and doesn't necessarily make everything else a lie. That said, it's pretty much holed any faith I had in them below the waterline - how could it not? They just don't 'get' it and/or they don't give a damn.

Best I can say for Cummings is that he might actually believe he's done no wrong. If so, I can understand what he did. That said, it just makes him a minor sociopath, but it still doesn't put him on the right side of this argument.

Navy - do you think that even Cummings can have belief in his Barnard Castle story?
Hard to say, given I think everything he's done here is Grade A nonsense. Who knows how a sociopath thinks, but thinking of those other than oneself probably isn't high on their list. In answer though, no, it's hard to see how anyone could believe that his little jaunt while 'isolating' to "test his eyesight" (picard) is anything other than stupid.

People do very stupid things; even me! Given that, it's how someone reacts having done so. I think that Cummings' attitude to this from the get go stinks and now he's drawn senior Cabinet and Johnson into his defence, which has trashed so much of the capital they had. Idiots.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 26 May 2020, 11:31 am

lostinwales wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:...

Best I can say for Cummings is that he might actually believe he's done no wrong. If so, I can understand what he did. That said, it just makes him a minor sociopath, but it still doesn't put him on the right side of this argument.

I agree with this. It is not just the act itself though, it is how it has been presented. They might just have saved things had they gone down the 'great mistake under stress and very sorry'  type of route. Instead they rewrite history to say what he did is OK and so undermine everything
Absolutely agree w/ this. I think people would still have been annoyed, but if their approach was "With hindsight, I might have handled this better and chosen a more sensible option etc", I think a lot of people might have understood better. The FU attitude and "No, I haven't even considered resignation" compounds the error.

TBH, I don't think there's any point in him going now. Damage done and any quitting now doesn't suggest a realisation of actual issue; just trying to right the ship for political gain. Screw them. He might actually be a good advisor and get a lot of things right. Who knows?

People (many of them) won't recall this (or give a damn) in ~5 years. Look at the effect of Blair/Iraq on the New Labour third term - f-all. Maybe this'll play more due to the fact it isn't 100s of thousands of Johnny Foreigner Iraqis dying this time?

Johnny Foreigner dying is a lot easier to deal with, even if we have had that same message rammed down our throat by the Tories and the left wing of the Labour party. What Cummings did hits many of us at a personal level. I don't think it will be forgotten easily.
Agree, but never underestimate the UK public's apparent ability to ignore this sort of thing, especially after ~5 years. Be interesting to see what happens at any intervening elections for Councils etc.

Truth of the matter is, there's almost no way anyone can force him out of this position. We'll just have to suck it up I'm afraid.
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Post by Samo on Tue 26 May 2020, 11:38 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:While Im glad more and more people are starting to realize that this government is a shambles, I can't help but wonder why its taken them so long?
I'm not sure that one man's self-entitled a-holery (and misguided defence by the PM) is evidence that everything else UKG does/has done is a 'shambles'.

I guess I’m just struggling to understand how someone can look at things like the fallout of the Grenfell tower tragedy, the Windrush scandal, the missing garden bridge money, the gambling of the UK’s national future because you were scared of losing a few seats to UKIP, the Universal Credit fiasco, the work capability assessments that literally lead to deaths, homelessness doubled, national debt trebled, foodbank use skyrocketed and the most recent disastrous handling of the pandemic and think that isnt a shambles.

But that might just be my political bias showing Wink

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Post by lostinwales on Tue 26 May 2020, 11:51 am

Terrific new word (at least for me) in the Grauniad coverage - 'clusterbourach'

In context it was referring to the Scottish tory party's attempts to steer clear of the 'Westminster clusterbourachs'

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Post by 123456789. on Tue 26 May 2020, 11:56 am

The thing that keeps coming to mind here is how completely unnecessary all this trauma is for the government. Why would he not have 'sacked' him and then brought him back into the government quietly six months on? It shows how utterly reliant on an adviser that Johnson can't bear to be without him for a matter of months until the furore has moved on.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 26 May 2020, 11:56 am

Samo wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:While Im glad more and more people are starting to realize that this government is a shambles, I can't help but wonder why its taken them so long?
I'm not sure that one man's self-entitled a-holery (and misguided defence by the PM) is evidence that everything else UKG does/has done is a 'shambles'.

I guess I’m just struggling to understand how someone can look at things like the fallout of the Grenfell tower tragedy, the Windrush scandal, the missing garden bridge money, the gambling of the UK’s national future because you were scared of losing a few seats to UKIP, the Universal Credit fiasco, the work capability assessments that literally lead to deaths, homelessness doubled, national debt trebled, foodbank use skyrocketed and the most recent disastrous handling of the pandemic and think that isnt a shambles.

But that might just be my political bias showing Wink
Maybe so. To be fair though, much of that was not specifically under this Government. I was kind of hoping that a lot of Johnson's claptrap was to gain power to actually do something, which would then be used more liberally than assumed. I'd hoped this pandemic might be the making of him.

🤷 We all make mistakes...
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Post by jimbopip on Tue 26 May 2020, 11:58 am

Samo wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:While Im glad more and more people are starting to realize that this government is a shambles, I can't help but wonder why its taken them so long?
I'm not sure that one man's self-entitled a-holery (and misguided defence by the PM) is evidence that everything else UKG does/has done is a 'shambles'.

I guess I’m just struggling to understand how someone can look at things like the fallout of the Grenfell tower tragedy, the Windrush scandal, the missing garden bridge money, the gambling of the UK’s national future because you were scared of losing a few seats to UKIP, the Universal Credit fiasco, the work capability assessments that literally lead to deaths, homelessness doubled, national debt trebled, foodbank use skyrocketed and the most recent disastrous handling of the pandemic and think that isnt a shambles.

But that might just be my political bias showing Wink

Samo...are you saying that the incompetence and dishonesty coupled with the cynical selective use of facts by this government is business as usual and not an isolated incident brought on by a global pandemic which snuck up on them and caught them unawares?

You really are letting you political bias show. Whistle Hug

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Post by GSC on Tue 26 May 2020, 1:10 pm

Yougov at 59% saying he should go.

71% think he broke lockdown which means 29% of the UK is about to hit the road
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Post by Pr4wn on Tue 26 May 2020, 1:11 pm

GSC wrote:Yougov at 59% saying he should go.

71% think he broke lockdown which means 29% of the UK is about to hit the road

Eyesight problems?

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Post by 123456789. on Tue 26 May 2020, 1:22 pm

GSC wrote:Yougov at 59% saying he should go.

71% think he broke lockdown which means 29% of the UK is about to hit the road


I see that includes 52% of Leave Voters. It seems the People's Unelected Adviser has lost the confidence of the 'real people'.

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Post by lostinwales on Tue 26 May 2020, 1:27 pm

123456789. wrote:
GSC wrote:Yougov at 59% saying he should go.

71% think he broke lockdown which means 29% of the UK is about to hit the road


I see that includes 52% of Leave Voters. It seems the People's Unelected Adviser has lost the confidence of the 'real people'.

52%? Looks like an overwhelming majority to me

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Post by GSC on Tue 26 May 2020, 1:32 pm

When is the prime minister going to respect the will of the people
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Post by lostinwales on Tue 26 May 2020, 1:37 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:.... I was kind of hoping that a lot of Johnson's claptrap was to gain power to actually do something, which would then be used more liberally than assumed. I'd hoped this pandemic might be the making of him.

We all make mistakes...

Unfortunately the evidence has always been there that he's useless. It really is quite astonishing that he has got so far on so little. You do get situations where talented people hide that ability until the right moment, and people can develop. You see it with government types when they finally switch between parroting the official line and saying what they really feel, often showing a degree of understanding and choice of phrase  which had been previously invisible.

I could be wrong but Boris has only ever shown a talent to promote himself and get promoted. I know he has his followers, and I'd really love to see what they see in him, understand what they hope for from him.

For the record Corbyn had (still has) his own set of cultists. I could understand some of what he represented to them even if I have no faith that he would ever have been able to deliver. Boris? no.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 26 May 2020, 3:32 pm

lostinwales wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:.... I was kind of hoping that a lot of Johnson's claptrap was to gain power to actually do something, which would then be used more liberally than assumed. I'd hoped this pandemic might be the making of him.

We all make mistakes...

Unfortunately the evidence has always been there that he's useless. It really is quite astonishing that he has got so far on so little. You do get situations where talented people hide that ability until the right moment, and people can develop. You see it with government types when they finally switch between parroting the official line and saying what they really feel, often showing a degree of understanding and choice of phrase  which had been previously invisible.

I could be wrong but Boris has only ever shown a talent to promote himself and get promoted. I know he has his followers, and I'd really love to see what they see in him, understand what they hope for from him.

For the record Corbyn had (still has) his own set of cultists. I could understand some of what he represented to them even if I have no faith that he would ever have been able to deliver. Boris? no.
Yeah. As I say, we all make mistakes OK. As I ranted earlier on, they can forget my vote at the next GE as I won't forget this.

I really despair over the political scene in this country though. The only good thing is it could either be a dictatorship (i.e. DPRK) or America under Trump.
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Post by tigertattie on Tue 26 May 2020, 4:08 pm

Righto, I'm off to the pub.

If anyone asks, is a garden centre and it has an opticians inside, we've renamed it "The Barnard Castle"
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