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The Covid-19 serious chat thread

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Post by JuliusHMarx Mon 25 May 2020, 7:48 pm

First topic message reminder :

Self-isolating, social distancing, locked down thread split.

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Post by navyblueshorts Tue 02 Mar 2021, 5:20 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:With regard to not having a high death rate compared to other countries, I agree we should not use countries such as NZ as a comparison, but see below the death rates in comparable countries, not just the death rate, but the amount of cases:

UK              Cases     4.18M      Deaths    123K
France        Cases      3.76M     Deaths      87K
Italy           Cases      2.94M     Deaths      94K
Spain         Cases       3.20M      Deaths    70k
Germany    Cases       2.46M     Deaths     70K
Turkey       Cases        2.71M    Deaths     28K  ( possibly a government figure and therefore not correct)


All have similar of larger populations and have done a lot better than we have. Why?
That's what we're waiting to find out at the enquiry(ies). Difficult to draw too many definitive conclusions just now.
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Post by Samo Tue 02 Mar 2021, 6:13 pm

I could have a guess.

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Post by navyblueshorts Wed 03 Mar 2021, 8:52 am

Samo wrote:I could have a guess.
You would OK.
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Post by LordDowlais Wed 03 Mar 2021, 9:00 am

I bet they will spout some nonsense like the UK having a bigger older age generation or some rubbish along those line.

But we are an island, we could have been a lot more proactive. International travel should have been banned from the outset, accept for exceptional or serious instances like business or import and export, and even then that could have been controlled better.

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Post by dummy_half Wed 03 Mar 2021, 5:00 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:With regard to not having a high death rate compared to other countries, I agree we should not use countries such as NZ as a comparison, but see below the death rates in comparable countries, not just the death rate, but the amount of cases:

UK              Cases     4.18M      Deaths    123K
France        Cases      3.76M     Deaths      87K
Italy           Cases      2.94M     Deaths      94K
Spain         Cases       3.20M      Deaths    70k
Germany    Cases       2.46M     Deaths     70K
Turkey       Cases        2.71M    Deaths     28K  ( possibly a government figure and therefore not correct)


All have similar of larger populations and have done a lot better than we have. Why?
That's what we're waiting to find out at the enquiry(ies). Difficult to draw too many definitive conclusions just now.

Ignoring Turkey, where it is very likely the figures are incorrect (and anyway is not comparable in terms of lifestyle or climate), I'm not sure you'd say anyone bar Germany has done A LOT better - Spain has had more cases per head, and the differences otherwise could well be to do with different means of collating the data (the BBC lists 3 different numbers for Covid deaths in the UK) as much as different outcomes, so I think we could describe as comparable with Spain, Italy and France. The US has an even higher case rate (may be an artefact of more testing earlier in the pandemic) and only slightly lower death rate than the UK.

I'm not for a moment arguing that the Government or the population in general have handled the pandemic well (with the exception of the vaccine roll-out, which has largely been well handled), and I've argued previously that in trying to have the best of both worlds of controlling the virus and minimising economic damage, we've ended up having the worst of both. We've also had some bad luck with the Kent mutation increasing infection rates rapidly around November (accepting that the bad luck was partly of our own making, in that relatively high case levels increased the likelihood of such mutations). Oh, and some of the issues like procurement have been badly handled and even more poorly messaged.

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Post by Pr4wn Wed 03 Mar 2021, 11:15 pm

Procurement appears to have been outwardly corrupt. Hancock saying last week that it wasn't in the public interest to declare that the government had broken the law regarding these contracts really says it all.

Vaccine roll-out has been superb, what an amazing effort by all involved.

Telling that the vaccine roll-out is actually being done by the NHS (amazing) but "NHS" Track and Trace is being managed by Serco and it's been a complete farce despite costing "" (twenty-flipping-two!!) billion pounds.

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Post by dummy_half Thu 04 Mar 2021, 11:44 am

Hancock's answer was stupid. He should have said something like 'we were rather busy dealing with a pandemic and needed supplies fast, which this achieved'. I think people could understand some bending of normal rules under the circumstances, but it's another case where the Gov haven't controlled the message well.

Serco are just a bit crap generally. They keep getting contracts for things that they aren't competent at or experienced in (happened with stuff they took over at the council where my wife works), and it ends up costing their customer rather than saving them money.

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Post by Samo Fri 05 Mar 2021, 10:02 am

Pr4wn wrote:a complete farce despite costing "" (twenty-flipping-two!!) billion pounds.

Looks like its going to top out at £37bn. Meanwhile nurses get an extra £3.50 a week.

Its good to have friends in high places.

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Post by Pr4wn Fri 05 Mar 2021, 11:12 am

Samo wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:a complete farce despite costing "" (twenty-flipping-two!!) billion pounds.

Looks like its going to top out at £37bn. Meanwhile nurses get an extra £3.50 a week.

Its good to have friends in high places.

I just don't understand why this isn't a big deal in the press. It's an absolute tragedy.

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Post by navyblueshorts Fri 05 Mar 2021, 11:17 am

With all due respect to 'the nurses', not all of them are/were on the Covid 'frontline' and just when the country is in hock to an additional, what, ~£400 billion quid, that's the right time to agitate for inflation busting pay increases? Good grief.

...and I say this as an academic who's had f-all by way of a decent pay rise for eons. Seven years formal training to post-doctoral level, plus years thereafter prior to the academic position. Work my butt off, 55-y/o, not even close the the 40% income tax bracket, pension scheme being eviscerated, UKG doesn't (and never has) give a schiesse about value of HE to the UK....
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Post by BamBam Fri 05 Mar 2021, 11:23 am

Hold on just a minute, surely the NHS nurses don't need a pay rise after all those claps they got last year?!

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Post by hampo17 Fri 05 Mar 2021, 1:34 pm

It's funny that they can only afford to give the nurses a 1% pay rise, anyone remember when an independent body had to stop the MPs getting a nice juicy pay rise last year, that was an awful lot higher than 1%.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 05 Mar 2021, 3:07 pm

Ah but that's different. Somehow.

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Post by Samo Fri 05 Mar 2021, 3:25 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:With all due respect to 'the nurses', not all of them are/were on the Covid 'frontline' and just when the country is in hock to an additional, what, ~£400 billion quid, that's the right time to agitate for inflation busting pay increases? Good grief.

...and I say this as an academic who's had f-all by way of a decent pay rise for eons. Seven years formal training to post-doctoral level, plus years thereafter prior to the academic position. Work my butt off, 55-y/o, not even close the the 40% income tax bracket, pension scheme being eviscerated, UKG doesn't (and never has) give a schiesse about value of HE to the UK....

This sounds like "I didnt get one so why should they?"

With all due respect..

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 05 Mar 2021, 3:31 pm

Nick Pettigrew wrote:The last year repeatedly proved that the govt can afford to do anything it feels is necessary. When they say they can't afford to give nurses a decent pay rise, what they mean is they don't feel it's necessary. Like austerity, it's a choice. They can, they just don't want to.

(@Nick_Pettigrew on Twitter)

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Post by Duty281 Fri 05 Mar 2021, 4:02 pm

PaulHv2 wrote:It's funny that they can only afford to give the nurses a 1% pay rise, anyone remember when an independent body had to stop the MPs getting a nice juicy pay rise last year, that was an awful lot higher than 1%.

It's the independent body - IPSA - who decide on MPs' pay and possible pay rises, not MPs themselves. IPSA had advocated for a MP's pay rise back in October, of somewhere around 4%, but they performed a u-turn after a backlash from many MPs, including Johnson and Starmer.

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Post by navyblueshorts Fri 05 Mar 2021, 4:09 pm

PaulHv2 wrote:It's funny that they can only afford to give the nurses a 1% pay rise, anyone remember when an independent body had to stop the MPs getting a nice juicy pay rise last year, that was an awful lot higher than 1%.
Apologies if I have this arse about face, but wasn't it an independent review body that recommended a nice fat increase, but which wasn't accepted as good optics by those self-same MPs?

Out of interest, does anyone really think MPs are paid anywhere near enough? Love them or loathe them, they are kind of responsible for a lot.
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Post by hampo17 Fri 05 Mar 2021, 4:13 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
PaulHv2 wrote:It's funny that they can only afford to give the nurses a 1% pay rise, anyone remember when an independent body had to stop the MPs getting a nice juicy pay rise last year, that was an awful lot higher than 1%.
Apologies if I have this arse about face, but wasn't it an independent review body that recommended a nice fat increase, but which wasn't accepted as good optics by those self-same MPs?

Out of interest, does anyone really think MPs are paid anywhere near enough? Love them or loathe them, they are kind of responsible for a lot.

Some of them, yes I do. I live in North Wales and look at the stupid bint who is conservative MP for Wrexham, Sarah Atherton. She has done zero for local business. The local pubs who made sure they kept going by turning to takeaways got zero coverage from her, but when Maccies reopened she was posing for pictures all over the show with a big mac. In her case, and countless others who are beyond useless a pay cut would be quite justified.

On the subject of nurses, living with one has given me an insight in to the toll it has taken on their mental and physical health over the last 18 months, the hospitals are underfunded and understaffed anyway but when you throw in a pandemic things become much worse very fast.

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Post by navyblueshorts Fri 05 Mar 2021, 4:14 pm

BamBam wrote:Hold on just a minute, surely the NHS nurses don't need a pay rise after all those claps they got last year?!
Did I say they didn't deserve a pay rise, period? I don't think so. I think the timing is pathetic, however. Still, suppose their Union has to strike while the pandemic is in the public's mind, eh?

The real problem is that the UK public won't wear the tax bill in order to supply enough funds to pay good nurses what they're worth. No, I don't mean all of them, but there are loads who're outstanding, deal with a lot of genuinely difficult issues and have a huge skills set. They should have the ability to earn a salary commensurate with that skill set.
Christ - if the NHS didn't already exist, there's no way the good old clapping UK public would accept its creation on the basis that it currently exists. That would mean dipping into pockets for a large wad and we can't have that, can we?
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Post by Duty281 Fri 05 Mar 2021, 4:16 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
PaulHv2 wrote:It's funny that they can only afford to give the nurses a 1% pay rise, anyone remember when an independent body had to stop the MPs getting a nice juicy pay rise last year, that was an awful lot higher than 1%.
Apologies if I have this arse about face, but wasn't it an independent review body that recommended a nice fat increase, but which wasn't accepted as good optics by those self-same MPs?

Out of interest, does anyone really think MPs are paid anywhere near enough? Love them or loathe them, they are kind of responsible for a lot.

I think MPs should be paid a lot more, yes, but the number of MPs needs to be drastically cut. Double the pay, halve the number, happy days.

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Post by hampo17 Fri 05 Mar 2021, 4:17 pm

I said this on twitter earlier and seems quite apt for this thread at the moment.

Twelve months ago the nurses were heroes, you were told you were unsympathetic if you didn't clap on a Thursday and that you didn't respect or appreciate them. Now their pay rise is being discussed, they're being called scroungers for wanting to be paid what they deserve.

The sad state of a percentage of the British public.

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Post by navyblueshorts Fri 05 Mar 2021, 4:18 pm

Samo wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:With all due respect to 'the nurses', not all of them are/were on the Covid 'frontline' and just when the country is in hock to an additional, what, ~£400 billion quid, that's the right time to agitate for inflation busting pay increases? Good grief.

...and I say this as an academic who's had f-all by way of a decent pay rise for eons. Seven years formal training to post-doctoral level, plus years thereafter prior to the academic position. Work my butt off, 55-y/o, not even close the the 40% income tax bracket, pension scheme being eviscerated, UKG doesn't (and never has) give a schiesse about value of HE to the UK....

This sounds like "I didnt get one so why should they?"

With all due respect..
You would see it that way. Still, that would only move me inline w/ the average 'what's in it for me?' Brit.
Read it that way if you want, but the important issue (clouded, admittedly, by the last ranting paragraph; still, I teach pre-clinical medics, but I still get relative peanuts for qualifications/experience - you're damned right I'm ****ed off re. my own renumeration) is that this is not the time to be stupid over demanding a pay increase? Talk about dumb - what are they going to do if they don't get it? Strike? Yeah, that'll win hearts and minds when we aren't yet out of the pandemic or its aftermath. Their Union should be shot.
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Post by navyblueshorts Fri 05 Mar 2021, 4:19 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Nick Pettigrew wrote:The last year repeatedly proved that the govt can afford to do anything it feels is necessary. When they say they can't afford to give nurses a decent pay rise, what they mean is they don't feel it's necessary. Like austerity, it's a choice. They can, they just don't want to.

(@Nick_Pettigrew on Twitter)
Laugh Nonsense. Who is that tool?

Yeah, you can make/print money etc. Borrow like crazy, but get this - it has to come from somewhere eventually.
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Post by navyblueshorts Fri 05 Mar 2021, 4:20 pm

Duty281 wrote:
PaulHv2 wrote:It's funny that they can only afford to give the nurses a 1% pay rise, anyone remember when an independent body had to stop the MPs getting a nice juicy pay rise last year, that was an awful lot higher than 1%.

It's the independent body - IPSA - who decide on MPs' pay and possible pay rises, not MPs themselves. IPSA had advocated for a MP's pay rise back in October, of somewhere around 4%, but they performed a u-turn after a backlash from many MPs, including Johnson and Starmer.
Them's the people I was trying to recall.
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Post by Duty281 Fri 05 Mar 2021, 4:21 pm

PaulHv2 wrote:I said this on twitter earlier and seems quite apt for this thread at the moment.

Twelve months ago the nurses were heroes, you were told you were unsympathetic if you didn't clap on a Thursday and that you didn't respect or appreciate them. Now their pay rise is being discussed, they're being called scroungers for wanting to be paid what they deserve.

The sad state of a percentage of the British public.

Who is calling them scroungers? And how much of a pay rise is the 'deserved' amount?

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Post by hampo17 Fri 05 Mar 2021, 4:23 pm

Duty281 wrote:
PaulHv2 wrote:I said this on twitter earlier and seems quite apt for this thread at the moment.

Twelve months ago the nurses were heroes, you were told you were unsympathetic if you didn't clap on a Thursday and that you didn't respect or appreciate them. Now their pay rise is being discussed, they're being called scroungers for wanting to be paid what they deserve.

The sad state of a percentage of the British public.

Who is calling them scroungers? And how much of a pay rise is the 'deserved' amount?

Like I said Duty, I have taken a post I put on social media so as you can imagine, there are plenty on that wonderful sesspool calling them that and worse.

As for the amount, that isn't for me to say, but £3.50 a week net is a bit of a joke isn't it? Would you be happy with that? I certainly wouldn't and I do an office job.

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Post by Duty281 Fri 05 Mar 2021, 4:27 pm

PaulHv2 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
PaulHv2 wrote:I said this on twitter earlier and seems quite apt for this thread at the moment.

Twelve months ago the nurses were heroes, you were told you were unsympathetic if you didn't clap on a Thursday and that you didn't respect or appreciate them. Now their pay rise is being discussed, they're being called scroungers for wanting to be paid what they deserve.

The sad state of a percentage of the British public.

Who is calling them scroungers? And how much of a pay rise is the 'deserved' amount?

Like I said Duty, I have taken a post I put on social media so as you can imagine, there are plenty on that wonderful sesspool calling them that and worse.

As for the amount,  that isn't for me to say, but £3.50 a week net is a bit of a joke isn't it? Would you be happy with that? I certainly wouldn't and I do an office job.

Well, yes, it's Twitter. Lovely place.

It's £3.50 a week for 'experienced nurses', I don't know the exact figure for those at the lower-end of the pay band. And, yes, it's low, no doubt, but there's a severe economic crisis and over a million other public sector workers - teachers, the police etc. - won't have any pay rise at all for a year.

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Post by hampo17 Fri 05 Mar 2021, 4:30 pm

Duty281 wrote:
PaulHv2 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
PaulHv2 wrote:I said this on twitter earlier and seems quite apt for this thread at the moment.

Twelve months ago the nurses were heroes, you were told you were unsympathetic if you didn't clap on a Thursday and that you didn't respect or appreciate them. Now their pay rise is being discussed, they're being called scroungers for wanting to be paid what they deserve.

The sad state of a percentage of the British public.

Who is calling them scroungers? And how much of a pay rise is the 'deserved' amount?

Like I said Duty, I have taken a post I put on social media so as you can imagine, there are plenty on that wonderful sesspool calling them that and worse.

As for the amount,  that isn't for me to say, but £3.50 a week net is a bit of a joke isn't it? Would you be happy with that? I certainly wouldn't and I do an office job.

Well, yes, it's Twitter. Lovely place.

It's £3.50 a week for 'experienced nurses', I don't know the exact figure for those at the lower-end of the pay band. And, yes, it's low, no doubt, but there's a severe economic crisis and over a million other public sector workers - teachers, the police etc. - won't have any pay rise at all for a year.

The police were awarded a 2.5% pay rise last year, teachers I believe had a 5.5% pay rise announced last year. That's why people are reacting the way they are.

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Post by navyblueshorts Fri 05 Mar 2021, 4:31 pm

PaulHv2 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
PaulHv2 wrote:It's funny that they can only afford to give the nurses a 1% pay rise, anyone remember when an independent body had to stop the MPs getting a nice juicy pay rise last year, that was an awful lot higher than 1%.
Apologies if I have this arse about face, but wasn't it an independent review body that recommended a nice fat increase, but which wasn't accepted as good optics by those self-same MPs?

Out of interest, does anyone really think MPs are paid anywhere near enough? Love them or loathe them, they are kind of responsible for a lot.

Some of them, yes I do. I live in North Wales and look at the stupid bint who is conservative MP for Wrexham, Sarah Atherton. She has done zero for local business. The local pubs who made sure they kept going by turning to takeaways got zero coverage from her, but when Maccies reopened she was posing for pictures all over the show with a big mac. In her case, and countless others who are beyond useless a pay cut would be quite justified.

On the subject of nurses, living with one has given me an insight in to the toll it has taken on their mental and physical health over the last 18 months, the hospitals are underfunded and understaffed anyway but when you throw in a pandemic things become much worse very fast.
We should have a recall process for pants MPs - do we? That said, I wouldn't know what my MP has to do and for which she's paid what I think is very little for. She's a wet blanket and I don't think she's any good, but I don't see all these superstar members of the public rushing to stand.

To be clear on nurses - I know their value. My mum spent a career as an SRN and Sister. I know a good few through work colleagues and the fact I watched many of them repeatedly save my son over ~14 months post-partum neonatal intensive care when he decided he was going to **** up a number of people's lives through being born at 28 weeks. We love him really. Sort of. However, not all nurses are 'heroes' or anything close to it.

I hope your other half is OK. I would happily see the best of that profession rewarded much more than they are now. Staffing levels and funding of the NHS is a wide issue, but one the UK apparently isn't willing to discuss like grown ups.
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Post by Samo Fri 05 Mar 2021, 4:51 pm

Duty281 wrote:
PaulHv2 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
PaulHv2 wrote:I said this on twitter earlier and seems quite apt for this thread at the moment.

Twelve months ago the nurses were heroes, you were told you were unsympathetic if you didn't clap on a Thursday and that you didn't respect or appreciate them. Now their pay rise is being discussed, they're being called scroungers for wanting to be paid what they deserve.

The sad state of a percentage of the British public.

Who is calling them scroungers? And how much of a pay rise is the 'deserved' amount?

Like I said Duty, I have taken a post I put on social media so as you can imagine, there are plenty on that wonderful sesspool calling them that and worse.

As for the amount,  that isn't for me to say, but £3.50 a week net is a bit of a joke isn't it? Would you be happy with that? I certainly wouldn't and I do an office job.

Well, yes, it's Twitter. Lovely place.

It's £3.50 a week for 'experienced nurses', I don't know the exact figure for those at the lower-end of the pay band. And, yes, it's low, no doubt, but there's a severe economic crisis and over a million other public sector workers - teachers, the police etc. - won't have any pay rise at all for a year.

But they still managed to find £37bn of taxpayer money to give to their mates.

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Post by Duty281 Fri 05 Mar 2021, 4:59 pm

PaulHv2 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
PaulHv2 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
PaulHv2 wrote:I said this on twitter earlier and seems quite apt for this thread at the moment.

Twelve months ago the nurses were heroes, you were told you were unsympathetic if you didn't clap on a Thursday and that you didn't respect or appreciate them. Now their pay rise is being discussed, they're being called scroungers for wanting to be paid what they deserve.

The sad state of a percentage of the British public.

Who is calling them scroungers? And how much of a pay rise is the 'deserved' amount?

Like I said Duty, I have taken a post I put on social media so as you can imagine, there are plenty on that wonderful sesspool calling them that and worse.

As for the amount,  that isn't for me to say, but £3.50 a week net is a bit of a joke isn't it? Would you be happy with that? I certainly wouldn't and I do an office job.

Well, yes, it's Twitter. Lovely place.

It's £3.50 a week for 'experienced nurses', I don't know the exact figure for those at the lower-end of the pay band. And, yes, it's low, no doubt, but there's a severe economic crisis and over a million other public sector workers - teachers, the police etc. - won't have any pay rise at all for a year.

The police were awarded a 2.5% pay rise last year, teachers I believe had a 5.5% pay rise announced last year. That's why people are reacting the way they are.

Yes, and NHS nurses had a three year deal in place (called the New Pay Deal, from 2018-2021) where their salaries increased by a minimum of 6.5% in that time-frame, so they haven't previously been denied raises.

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Post by Duty281 Fri 05 Mar 2021, 5:01 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
PaulHv2 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
PaulHv2 wrote:It's funny that they can only afford to give the nurses a 1% pay rise, anyone remember when an independent body had to stop the MPs getting a nice juicy pay rise last year, that was an awful lot higher than 1%.
Apologies if I have this arse about face, but wasn't it an independent review body that recommended a nice fat increase, but which wasn't accepted as good optics by those self-same MPs?

Out of interest, does anyone really think MPs are paid anywhere near enough? Love them or loathe them, they are kind of responsible for a lot.

Some of them, yes I do. I live in North Wales and look at the stupid bint who is conservative MP for Wrexham, Sarah Atherton. She has done zero for local business. The local pubs who made sure they kept going by turning to takeaways got zero coverage from her, but when Maccies reopened she was posing for pictures all over the show with a big mac. In her case, and countless others who are beyond useless a pay cut would be quite justified.

On the subject of nurses, living with one has given me an insight in to the toll it has taken on their mental and physical health over the last 18 months, the hospitals are underfunded and understaffed anyway but when you throw in a pandemic things become much worse very fast.
We should have a recall process for pants MPs - do we? That said, I wouldn't know what my MP has to do and for which she's paid what I think is very little for. She's a wet blanket and I don't think she's any good, but I don't see all these superstar members of the public rushing to stand.

To be clear on nurses - I know their value. My mum spent a career as an SRN and Sister. I know a good few through work colleagues and the fact I watched many of them repeatedly save my son over ~14 months post-partum neonatal intensive care when he decided he was going to **** up a number of people's lives through being born at 28 weeks. We love him really. Sort of. However, not all nurses are 'heroes' or anything close to it.

I hope your other half is OK. I would happily see the best of that profession rewarded much more than they are now. Staffing levels and funding of the NHS is a wide issue, but one the UK apparently isn't willing to discuss like grown ups.

Only if they commit crime or get suspended from the House of Commons. Otherwise it's the usual five-year contract.

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Post by navyblueshorts Fri 05 Mar 2021, 5:13 pm

Duty281 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
PaulHv2 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
PaulHv2 wrote:It's funny that they can only afford to give the nurses a 1% pay rise, anyone remember when an independent body had to stop the MPs getting a nice juicy pay rise last year, that was an awful lot higher than 1%.
Apologies if I have this arse about face, but wasn't it an independent review body that recommended a nice fat increase, but which wasn't accepted as good optics by those self-same MPs?

Out of interest, does anyone really think MPs are paid anywhere near enough? Love them or loathe them, they are kind of responsible for a lot.

Some of them, yes I do. I live in North Wales and look at the stupid bint who is conservative MP for Wrexham, Sarah Atherton. She has done zero for local business. The local pubs who made sure they kept going by turning to takeaways got zero coverage from her, but when Maccies reopened she was posing for pictures all over the show with a big mac. In her case, and countless others who are beyond useless a pay cut would be quite justified.

On the subject of nurses, living with one has given me an insight in to the toll it has taken on their mental and physical health over the last 18 months, the hospitals are underfunded and understaffed anyway but when you throw in a pandemic things become much worse very fast.
We should have a recall process for pants MPs - do we? That said, I wouldn't know what my MP has to do and for which she's paid what I think is very little for. She's a wet blanket and I don't think she's any good, but I don't see all these superstar members of the public rushing to stand.

To be clear on nurses - I know their value. My mum spent a career as an SRN and Sister. I know a good few through work colleagues and the fact I watched many of them repeatedly save my son over ~14 months post-partum neonatal intensive care when he decided he was going to **** up a number of people's lives through being born at 28 weeks. We love him really. Sort of. However, not all nurses are 'heroes' or anything close to it.

I hope your other half is OK. I would happily see the best of that profession rewarded much more than they are now. Staffing levels and funding of the NHS is a wide issue, but one the UK apparently isn't willing to discuss like grown ups.

Only if they commit crime or get suspended from the House of Commons. Otherwise it's the usual five-year contract.
Ta. Clearly, we don't want something where MPs are recalled at the drop of a hat, but not sure what you describe is stringent enough IMO.
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Post by lostinwales Fri 05 Mar 2021, 5:24 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:With all due respect to 'the nurses', not all of them are/were on the Covid 'frontline' and just when the country is in hock to an additional, what, ~£400 billion quid, that's the right time to agitate for inflation busting pay increases? Good grief.

...and I say this as an academic who's had f-all by way of a decent pay rise for eons. Seven years formal training to post-doctoral level, plus years thereafter prior to the academic position. Work my butt off, 55-y/o, not even close the the 40% income tax bracket, pension scheme being eviscerated, UKG doesn't (and never has) give a schiesse about value of HE to the UK....

I am a former academic turned consulting engineer. I am, overall, much happier in my current role, however I am currently being paid less than I was as an academic 10 years ago.

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Post by navyblueshorts Sat 06 Mar 2021, 12:59 pm

lostinwales wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:With all due respect to 'the nurses', not all of them are/were on the Covid 'frontline' and just when the country is in hock to an additional, what, ~£400 billion quid, that's the right time to agitate for inflation busting pay increases? Good grief.

...and I say this as an academic who's had f-all by way of a decent pay rise for eons. Seven years formal training to post-doctoral level, plus years thereafter prior to the academic position. Work my butt off, 55-y/o, not even close the the 40% income tax bracket, pension scheme being eviscerated, UKG doesn't (and never has) give a schiesse about value of HE to the UK....

I am a former academic turned consulting engineer. I am, overall, much happier in my current role, however I am currently being paid less than I was as an academic 10 years ago.
Interesting. Guess your new career choice was driven by job satisfaction. Interesting insight into consulting engineer salaries too, because the majority academic salaries (given qualifications etc) are scheisse. No, it's not poverty, but...
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Post by navyblueshorts Sat 06 Mar 2021, 1:12 pm

Interesting and amateur back of fag packet numbers on nurses salaries, powered by red wine:

RCN are asking for what appears to be absurd 12.5%.

# of nurses in NHS: ~300,000 (source)
Average NHS salary: ~£33,000 (source)

Basic 12.5% increase based on above: 0.125 x 33000 x 300000 = ~£1.24 billion.

Doesn't seem so bad in context of some other pandemic-related costs I guess.

Anyone out there tax or pension experts? How would the above sort of numbers add(?) to overall cost?

I presume one of the issues UKG is considering is some of the optics re. other public sector workers if nurses are seen to be given 12.5%.
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Post by hampo17 Sat 06 Mar 2021, 1:15 pm

Let’s be honest, 12.5% is a headline grabbing figure, that would never happen. But going back to my Mrs, she’s on £24k as are a lot of nurses, so that’s a £2.40 gross pay rise per week, she’d be happy with a annual pay rise that would cover the cost of having to join the NMC.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 06 Mar 2021, 1:21 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:Interesting and amateur back of fag packet numbers on nurses salaries, powered by red wine:

RCN are asking for what appears to be absurd 12.5%.

# of nurses in NHS: ~300,000 (source)
Average NHS salary: ~£33,000 (source)

Basic 12.5% increase based on above: 0.125 x 33000 x 300000 = ~£1.24 billion.

Doesn't seem so bad in context of some other pandemic-related costs I guess.

Anyone out there tax or pension experts? How would the above sort of numbers add(?) to overall cost?

I presume one of the issues UKG is considering is some of the optics re. other public sector workers if nurses are seen to be given 12.5%.
Therein lies the longer term issue with some of the absurd incompetency in procuring PPE. The magic money tree was shaken and cash showered down on companies incapable of delivering. When that happens others will naturally ask why not us?

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Post by lostinwales Sat 06 Mar 2021, 1:33 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:With all due respect to 'the nurses', not all of them are/were on the Covid 'frontline' and just when the country is in hock to an additional, what, ~£400 billion quid, that's the right time to agitate for inflation busting pay increases? Good grief.

...and I say this as an academic who's had f-all by way of a decent pay rise for eons. Seven years formal training to post-doctoral level, plus years thereafter prior to the academic position. Work my butt off, 55-y/o, not even close the the 40% income tax bracket, pension scheme being eviscerated, UKG doesn't (and never has) give a schiesse about value of HE to the UK....

I am a former academic turned consulting engineer. I am, overall, much happier in my current role, however I am currently being paid less than I was as an academic 10 years ago.
Interesting. Guess your new career choice was driven by job satisfaction. Interesting insight into consulting engineer salaries too, because the majority academic salaries (given qualifications etc) are scheisse. No, it's not poverty, but...

I think there are some issues with my current (possibly soon to be ex) employers. Job satisfaction is indeed very high, but salary wise not so great. In academia I was a senior research fellow (or equivalent) so being paid at roughly the same level as a principle lecturer. I would have needed to go to reader (or eventually professor) to move on up the tree, but lots of reasons as to why that wasn't going to happen.

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Post by Samo Sat 06 Mar 2021, 2:03 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:Interesting and amateur back of fag packet numbers on nurses salaries, powered by red wine:

RCN are asking for what appears to be absurd 12.5%.

# of nurses in NHS: ~300,000 (source)
Average NHS salary: ~£33,000 (source)

Basic 12.5% increase based on above: 0.125 x 33000 x 300000 = ~£1.24 billion.

Doesn't seem so bad in context of some other pandemic-related costs I guess.

Anyone out there tax or pension experts? How would the above sort of numbers add(?) to overall cost?

I presume one of the issues UKG is considering is some of the optics re. other public sector workers if nurses are seen to be given 12.5%.

Well according to Johnsons big red bus the NHS should be £18.2bn better off a year. We could maybe use some of that?

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 06 Mar 2021, 2:46 pm

Were there not a global pandemic your continued insistence to bring up the buses might have some relevance. Shows a lack of mental dexterity.

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Post by Samo Sat 06 Mar 2021, 2:58 pm

If its all the same to you I’ll continue to insist that politicians are held accountable for words they say and promises they make. If you want to sweep them under the rug and forget about them be my guest.

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Post by Pr4wn Sat 06 Mar 2021, 6:38 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Were there not a global pandemic your continued insistence to bring up the buses might have some relevance. Shows a lack of mental dexterity.

A completely needless personal insult. Please don't do this.

Back to the point, the pandemic does, indeed, give this government the perfect excuse to do what they were always going to do anyway. Not spend this money on the NHS. Also funny how the global pandemic has allowed this government to award contracts worth hundreds of billions to their donors/spouses/friends/neighbours/former pub landlords.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler Sat 06 Mar 2021, 6:42 pm

If you calculate actual hours worked, the pay is depressing. Was the same in teaching.

I’d bet a lot of nurses would be somewhat the same as teachers - if you felt funding was correct for you to do your job - not wages, just funding - then it would help. But you’re underpaid, hamstrung by the money available to do the job, and increasingly under appreciated whilst expected to do more than ever.

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Post by Duty281 Sat 06 Mar 2021, 7:49 pm

Pr4wn wrote:Back to the point, the pandemic does, indeed, give this government the perfect excuse to do what they were always going to do anyway. Not spend this money on the NHS.

Eh? Planned spending for the Department of Health was nearly £202 billion in 2020/21, an increase of over £50 billion due to the Covid-19 pandemic. £5 billion of extra revenue spending was also allocated by the government in the Spring Budget last year.

Before Covid-19 even happened to this country, the government put through the NHS Funding Bill in January 2020 which would increase NHS spending by £34 billion by 2024.

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Post by hampo17 Sat 06 Mar 2021, 9:02 pm

Duty you do realise how badly funded the NHS has been for the last decade right? Factor in that a lot of that money never filters down to the areas that actually need,something that the government will be aware of, it is just the fat cat getting fatter.

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Post by Duty281 Sat 06 Mar 2021, 9:29 pm

PaulHv2 wrote:Duty you do realise how badly funded the NHS has been for the last decade right? Factor in that a lot of that money never filters down to the areas that actually need,something that the government will be aware of, it is just the fat cat getting fatter.

The NHS has still had increased funding through every year of the last decade - £126.1 billion was the Department of Health's budget in 2010, up to £148.8 billion in 2020. Granted the NHS' increases in that time have been smaller than previous years, but that was a direct result of the financial hit and subsequent economic downturn starting in 2008. The NHS Funding Bill last year, however, was going to implement bigger increases in NHS funding up to and including 2024.

I can agree with your latter point, because the NHS is a bureaucratic monster that swallows up all this extra funding and, like Oliver Twist, will soon be back for more.

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Post by Pr4wn Sat 06 Mar 2021, 9:30 pm

So it's the NHS's fault?

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Post by lostinwales Sat 06 Mar 2021, 11:20 pm

Duty281 wrote:
PaulHv2 wrote:Duty you do realise how badly funded the NHS has been for the last decade right? Factor in that a lot of that money never filters down to the areas that actually need,something that the government will be aware of, it is just the fat cat getting fatter.

The NHS has still had increased funding through every year of the last decade - £126.1 billion was the Department of Health's budget in 2010, up to £148.8 billion in 2020. Granted the NHS' increases in that time have been smaller than previous years, but that was a direct result of the financial hit and subsequent economic downturn starting in 2008. The NHS Funding Bill last year, however, was going to implement bigger increases in NHS funding up to and including 2024.

I can agree with your latter point, because the NHS is a bureaucratic monster that swallows up all this extra funding and, like Oliver Twist, will soon be back for more.

We should all not grow old or get sick then there won't be any problems.

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Post by lostinwales Sat 06 Mar 2021, 11:23 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
PaulHv2 wrote:Duty you do realise how badly funded the NHS has been for the last decade right? Factor in that a lot of that money never filters down to the areas that actually need,something that the government will be aware of, it is just the fat cat getting fatter.

The NHS has still had increased funding through every year of the last decade - £126.1 billion was the Department of Health's budget in 2010, up to £148.8 billion in 2020. Granted the NHS' increases in that time have been smaller than previous years, but that was a direct result of the financial hit and subsequent economic downturn starting in 2008. The NHS Funding Bill last year, however, was going to implement bigger increases in NHS funding up to and including 2024.

I can agree with your latter point, because the NHS is a bureaucratic monster that swallows up all this extra funding and, like Oliver Twist, will soon be back for more.

We should all not grow old or get sick then there won't be any problems.

Actually being serious - yes the NHS eats cash. But the alternatives eat cash faster. Well worth looking at the figures on how much a health service actually costs in different countries. The NHS tends to do very well under that criteria.

The big problem with health, just like with social security, is that yiou cannot actually, ultimately, avoid paying for it. It is just a question of how, and where you pay for it.

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