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The Covid-19 serious chat thread

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Mon 25 May 2020, 7:48 pm

First topic message reminder :

Self-isolating, social distancing, locked down thread split.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 15 Oct 2020, 5:04 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Serious question. Apologies if the answer should be obvious to me.

I'm in tier 1 and can have visitors in my house subject to the rule of 6. Does that also allow for visitors from a tier 2 area?  I particularly ask as there don't seem to be travel restrictions for people leaving tier 2 where there are clear prohibitions upon house visits.

Thanks.


Simple answer: no. People shouldn't be making unnecessary journeys. Period. Not aimed at you Guildford, but seriously, how hard can this be? I know UKG aren't all that, but just because they aren't word explicit on something, doesn't mean people have to be dense about it. It's logical, and dare I say obvious, that leaving a Tier 2 locale to stay w/ friends/family in a Tier 1 locale is just ridiculous. Far too many people aren't taking responsibility for their own actions, but are then blaming central government.

Also, far too many are just laughing at this virus as if somehow they're clever. This is an ACDP Hazard Group 3 virus (https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/advisory-committee-on-dangerous-pathogens) - it is no joke. Other pathogens in this group include anthrax, verotoxic E. coli, Salmonella typhi, some Shigella species (dysentery), Yersinia pestis (plague/Black Death; no, I'm, not kidding), Trypanosma cruzi (sleeping sickness), prions (vCJD), SARS-CoV-1, MERS, some polio strains, yellow fever virus etc etc.
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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 15 Oct 2020, 5:17 pm

This is what the Welsh government is trying to prevent: people from high-risk / high-incidence areas travelling to areas where fortunately the rate is low. There are already several counties in Wales (Newport is one of them) under local lockdown, part of which involves no non-essential travel in or out of those areas. The First Minister was simply asking the Prime Minister to take the eminently sensible step of placing similar restrictions on travel in and out of such areas in England, so that people from Manchester or Merseyside aren't potentially bringing coronavirus with them to Gwynedd or Pembrokeshire. He wouldn't, and that's left the Welsh government with no choice but to do what it can to stop such travel into Wales from high-incidence areas - which inevitably, tediously, the Conservatives are spinning as 'anti-English' measures.

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Post by guildfordbat on Thu 15 Oct 2020, 6:53 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:Serious question. Apologies if the answer should be obvious to me.

I'm in tier 1 and can have visitors in my house subject to the rule of 6. Does that also allow for visitors from a tier 2 area?  I particularly ask as there don't seem to be travel restrictions for people leaving tier 2 where there are clear prohibitions upon house visits.

Thanks.


Simple answer: no. People shouldn't be making unnecessary journeys. Period. Not aimed at you Guildford, but seriously, how hard can this be? I know UKG aren't all that, but just because they aren't word explicit on something, doesn't mean people have to be dense about it. It's logical, and dare I say obvious, that leaving a Tier 2 locale to stay w/ friends/family in a Tier 1 locale is just ridiculous. Far too many people aren't taking responsibility for their own actions, but are then blaming central government.

Also, far too many are just laughing at this virus as if somehow they're clever. This is an ACDP Hazard Group 3 virus (https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/advisory-committee-on-dangerous-pathogens) - it is no joke. Other pathogens in this group include anthrax, verotoxic E. coli, Salmonella typhi, some Shigella species (dysentery), Yersinia pestis (plague/Black Death; no, I'm, not kidding), Trypanosma cruzi (sleeping sickness), prions (vCJD), SARS-CoV-1, MERS, some polio strains, yellow fever virus etc etc.

Hi Navy, thanks for the response. I appreciate you are strongly saying it shouldn't happen but are you sure it's expressly prohibited? Tiger and Luckless appear to suggest it's not and that was really behind my question.

Imo the blurring of specific rules and general guidance has been a problem for both the Government and the public ever since the antics of Cummins came to light. Perhaps this will become another example of that.

As regards the introduction of the three current tiers, my take is that they will create national irritation and worse but do little to eliminate the virus.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Fri 16 Oct 2020, 9:49 am

Navy, it is not that people are dense about it, it's that they couldn't give a damn about anyone else and think they are Covid proof. As an example, look at those idiots up in Liverpool the other night. They know they shouldn't have done it but simply didn't care. After Cummings and the other fiascos that the government and other parties have been involved in, the young in particular employ the reasoning that "if it's good for them...."

They really need somehow to either be taught a lesson or punished to an extent that it just isn't worth the risk.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 16 Oct 2020, 10:11 am

guildfordbat wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:Serious question. Apologies if the answer should be obvious to me.

I'm in tier 1 and can have visitors in my house subject to the rule of 6. Does that also allow for visitors from a tier 2 area?  I particularly ask as there don't seem to be travel restrictions for people leaving tier 2 where there are clear prohibitions upon house visits.

Thanks.


Simple answer: no. People shouldn't be making unnecessary journeys. Period. Not aimed at you Guildford, but seriously, how hard can this be? I know UKG aren't all that, but just because they aren't word explicit on something, doesn't mean people have to be dense about it. It's logical, and dare I say obvious, that leaving a Tier 2 locale to stay w/ friends/family in a Tier 1 locale is just ridiculous. Far too many people aren't taking responsibility for their own actions, but are then blaming central government.

Also, far too many are just laughing at this virus as if somehow they're clever. This is an ACDP Hazard Group 3 virus (https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/advisory-committee-on-dangerous-pathogens) - it is no joke. Other pathogens in this group include anthrax, verotoxic E. coli, Salmonella typhi, some Shigella species (dysentery), Yersinia pestis (plague/Black Death; no, I'm, not kidding), Trypanosma cruzi (sleeping sickness), prions (vCJD), SARS-CoV-1, MERS, some polio strains, yellow fever virus etc etc.

Hi Navy, thanks for the response. I appreciate you are strongly saying it shouldn't happen but are you sure it's expressly prohibited? Tiger and Luckless appear to suggest it's not and that was really behind my question.

Imo the blurring of specific rules and general guidance has been a problem for both the Government and the public ever since the antics of Cummins came to light. Perhaps this will become another example of that.

As regards the introduction of the three current tiers, my take is that they will create national irritation and worse but do little to eliminate the virus.

Listening to this specific question on the radio today, and Hancock stated that what you are asking is not forbidden, so long as all other rules are applied, but is not desired.

Slightly different but my younger daughter will be picked up by her mum today and taken from a tier 1 to a tier 2 zone for the weekend. Main reason it is different is we are one support bubble (plus the issue of divorced parents and child under 18). My daughter however is refusing to leave the house in london while down there.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 16 Oct 2020, 10:19 am

And in other news:

D1 down in Bath is self isolating as a flat mate has symptoms. A test was requested a week ago, arrived yesterday and no guarantee the results will be back before next week. While crappy for daughter and flatmates (especially as daughter has her birthday this weekend) it highlights the issues with our Test, Track and Trace system in that it will be 10 days between getting symptoms and getting a test result. If positive that is 10 days when people who should have been traced and told to isolate have been walking around potentially infecting others.

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Post by guildfordbat on Fri 16 Oct 2020, 11:45 am

LondonTiger wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:Serious question. Apologies if the answer should be obvious to me.

I'm in tier 1 and can have visitors in my house subject to the rule of 6. Does that also allow for visitors from a tier 2 area?  I particularly ask as there don't seem to be travel restrictions for people leaving tier 2 where there are clear prohibitions upon house visits.

Thanks.


Simple answer: no. People shouldn't be making unnecessary journeys. Period. Not aimed at you Guildford, but seriously, how hard can this be? I know UKG aren't all that, but just because they aren't word explicit on something, doesn't mean people have to be dense about it. It's logical, and dare I say obvious, that leaving a Tier 2 locale to stay w/ friends/family in a Tier 1 locale is just ridiculous. Far too many people aren't taking responsibility for their own actions, but are then blaming central government.

Also, far too many are just laughing at this virus as if somehow they're clever. This is an ACDP Hazard Group 3 virus (https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/advisory-committee-on-dangerous-pathogens) - it is no joke. Other pathogens in this group include anthrax, verotoxic E. coli, Salmonella typhi, some Shigella species (dysentery), Yersinia pestis (plague/Black Death; no, I'm, not kidding), Trypanosma cruzi (sleeping sickness), prions (vCJD), SARS-CoV-1, MERS, some polio strains, yellow fever virus etc etc.

Hi Navy, thanks for the response. I appreciate you are strongly saying it shouldn't happen but are you sure it's expressly prohibited? Tiger and Luckless appear to suggest it's not and that was really behind my question.

Imo the blurring of specific rules and general guidance has been a problem for both the Government and the public ever since the antics of Cummins came to light. Perhaps this will become another example of that.

As regards the introduction of the three current tiers, my take is that they will create national irritation and worse but do little to eliminate the virus.

Listening to this specific question on the radio today, and Hancock stated that what you are asking is not forbidden, so long as all other rules are applied, but is not desired.

Slightly different but my younger daughter will be picked up by her mum today and taken from a tier 1 to a tier 2 zone for the weekend. Main reason it is different is we are one support bubble (plus the issue of divorced parents and child under 18). My daughter however is refusing to leave the house in london while down there.

Thanks, Tiger. As it so happened, this question was also raised last night on the BBC London & South East News. The Beeb reporter who had been checking various Covid questions during the day started off by saying ''we have actually struggled to get an absolutely definitive answer on this one'' but ended up giving the same answer as Hancock above.

Hope all goes well with your daughters.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 16 Oct 2020, 12:39 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:Serious question. Apologies if the answer should be obvious to me.

I'm in tier 1 and can have visitors in my house subject to the rule of 6. Does that also allow for visitors from a tier 2 area?  I particularly ask as there don't seem to be travel restrictions for people leaving tier 2 where there are clear prohibitions upon house visits.

Thanks.


Simple answer: no. People shouldn't be making unnecessary journeys. Period. Not aimed at you Guildford, but seriously, how hard can this be? I know UKG aren't all that, but just because they aren't word explicit on something, doesn't mean people have to be dense about it. It's logical, and dare I say obvious, that leaving a Tier 2 locale to stay w/ friends/family in a Tier 1 locale is just ridiculous. Far too many people aren't taking responsibility for their own actions, but are then blaming central government.

Also, far too many are just laughing at this virus as if somehow they're clever. This is an ACDP Hazard Group 3 virus (https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/advisory-committee-on-dangerous-pathogens) - it is no joke. Other pathogens in this group include anthrax, verotoxic E. coli, Salmonella typhi, some Shigella species (dysentery), Yersinia pestis (plague/Black Death; no, I'm, not kidding), Trypanosma cruzi (sleeping sickness), prions (vCJD), SARS-CoV-1, MERS, some polio strains, yellow fever virus etc etc.

Hi Navy, thanks for the response. I appreciate you are strongly saying it shouldn't happen but are you sure it's expressly prohibited? Tiger and Luckless appear to suggest it's not and that was really behind my question.

Imo the blurring of specific rules and general guidance has been a problem for both the Government and the public ever since the antics of Cummins came to light. Perhaps this will become another example of that.

As regards the introduction of the three current tiers, my take is that they will create national irritation and worse but do little to eliminate the virus.
As far as I know, there's nothing explicit about that, but that still doesn't justify doing something that's clearly not sensible. As far as I can see, it's implicit that people shouldn't be doing this.

Re. the tiers, it's either that or national lockdown again, with all the bleating that'll engender.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 16 Oct 2020, 12:44 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Navy, it is not that people are dense about it, it's that they couldn't give a damn about anyone else and think they are Covid proof. As an example, look at those idiots up in Liverpool the other night. They know they shouldn't have done it but simply didn't care. After Cummings and the other fiascos that the government and other parties have been involved in, the young in particular employ the reasoning that "if it's good for them...."

They really need somehow to either be taught a lesson or punished to an extent that it just isn't worth the risk.
I sort of understand some of it; even using Cummings's behaviour as some sort of twisted justification. However, two wrongs don't make a right.

They're stupid. It's not even the risk to themselves, but then they clearly don't think of others. This is about not overwhelming the NHS, as before. It's about the fact that many are ill enough that, although they survive, they'll experience long-term impact from this (so will the NHS, and therefore those d!ck heads if/when they pay into the NHS) etc.

TBH, I personally don't give much of a 4X anymore. I'm looking after myself and mine and trying my damnedest to ensure we all stay free of this.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 16 Oct 2020, 12:57 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:Serious question. Apologies if the answer should be obvious to me.

I'm in tier 1 and can have visitors in my house subject to the rule of 6. Does that also allow for visitors from a tier 2 area?  I particularly ask as there don't seem to be travel restrictions for people leaving tier 2 where there are clear prohibitions upon house visits.

Thanks.


Simple answer: no. People shouldn't be making unnecessary journeys. Period. Not aimed at you Guildford, but seriously, how hard can this be? I know UKG aren't all that, but just because they aren't word explicit on something, doesn't mean people have to be dense about it. It's logical, and dare I say obvious, that leaving a Tier 2 locale to stay w/ friends/family in a Tier 1 locale is just ridiculous. Far too many people aren't taking responsibility for their own actions, but are then blaming central government.

Also, far too many are just laughing at this virus as if somehow they're clever. This is an ACDP Hazard Group 3 virus (https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/advisory-committee-on-dangerous-pathogens) - it is no joke. Other pathogens in this group include anthrax, verotoxic E. coli, Salmonella typhi, some Shigella species (dysentery), Yersinia pestis (plague/Black Death; no, I'm, not kidding), Trypanosma cruzi (sleeping sickness), prions (vCJD), SARS-CoV-1, MERS, some polio strains, yellow fever virus etc etc.

Hi Navy, thanks for the response. I appreciate you are strongly saying it shouldn't happen but are you sure it's expressly prohibited? Tiger and Luckless appear to suggest it's not and that was really behind my question.

Imo the blurring of specific rules and general guidance has been a problem for both the Government and the public ever since the antics of Cummins came to light. Perhaps this will become another example of that.

As regards the introduction of the three current tiers, my take is that they will create national irritation and worse but do little to eliminate the virus.

Listening to this specific question on the radio today, and Hancock stated that what you are asking is not forbidden, so long as all other rules are applied, but is not desired.

Slightly different but my younger daughter will be picked up by her mum today and taken from a tier 1 to a tier 2 zone for the weekend. Main reason it is different is we are one support bubble (plus the issue of divorced parents and child under 18). My daughter however is refusing to leave the house in london while down there.
From gov.uk re. Tier 2 requirements:


  • You must not socialise with anybody outside of your household or support bubble in any indoor setting, whether at home or in a public place.


So, from the perspective of anyone in a Tier 2 region, you can't mix w/ anyone outside of your own household, except those in the same support bubble. I suppose a grey area is the "whether at home", as they wouldn't be "at home" (i.e. their own home). It would seem to me, however, to be clearly saying that if you're in Tier 1, you cannot have visitors into your home from a higher control area i.e. those in the Tier 2 locale would be mixing w/ those outside of their own household. From a risk assessment perspective, why would anyone actively decide to do this, just to visit some friends/family?? From the Tier 1 perspective, probably OK (even if daft), but from the Tier 2 perspective, I don't think you should be doing this, so main responsibility w/ them I would suggest.

Maybe too many need each detail written down in black and white, which isn't going to happen. Some of this does require some thought, but everyone appears to think that UKG should be leading them by nose rings.

All the best to your daughters; hope they remain safe.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 16 Oct 2020, 1:03 pm

Negative news on remdesivir:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-54566730

Not surprised Gilead disagree as they stand to lose billions if this is correct.
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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 16 Oct 2020, 1:28 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:Serious question. Apologies if the answer should be obvious to me.

I'm in tier 1 and can have visitors in my house subject to the rule of 6. Does that also allow for visitors from a tier 2 area?  I particularly ask as there don't seem to be travel restrictions for people leaving tier 2 where there are clear prohibitions upon house visits.

Thanks.


Simple answer: no. People shouldn't be making unnecessary journeys. Period. Not aimed at you Guildford, but seriously, how hard can this be? I know UKG aren't all that, but just because they aren't word explicit on something, doesn't mean people have to be dense about it. It's logical, and dare I say obvious, that leaving a Tier 2 locale to stay w/ friends/family in a Tier 1 locale is just ridiculous. Far too many people aren't taking responsibility for their own actions, but are then blaming central government.

Also, far too many are just laughing at this virus as if somehow they're clever. This is an ACDP Hazard Group 3 virus (https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/advisory-committee-on-dangerous-pathogens) - it is no joke. Other pathogens in this group include anthrax, verotoxic E. coli, Salmonella typhi, some Shigella species (dysentery), Yersinia pestis (plague/Black Death; no, I'm, not kidding), Trypanosma cruzi (sleeping sickness), prions (vCJD), SARS-CoV-1, MERS, some polio strains, yellow fever virus etc etc.

Hi Navy, thanks for the response. I appreciate you are strongly saying it shouldn't happen but are you sure it's expressly prohibited? Tiger and Luckless appear to suggest it's not and that was really behind my question.

Imo the blurring of specific rules and general guidance has been a problem for both the Government and the public ever since the antics of Cummins came to light. Perhaps this will become another example of that.

As regards the introduction of the three current tiers, my take is that they will create national irritation and worse but do little to eliminate the virus.

Listening to this specific question on the radio today, and Hancock stated that what you are asking is not forbidden, so long as all other rules are applied, but is not desired.

Slightly different but my younger daughter will be picked up by her mum today and taken from a tier 1 to a tier 2 zone for the weekend. Main reason it is different is we are one support bubble (plus the issue of divorced parents and child under 18). My daughter however is refusing to leave the house in london while down there.
From gov.uk re. Tier 2 requirements:


  • You must not socialise with anybody outside of your household or support bubble in any indoor setting, whether at home or in a public place.


So, from the perspective of anyone in a Tier 2 region, you can't mix w/ anyone outside of your own household, except those in the same support bubble. I suppose a grey area is the "whether at home", as they wouldn't be "at home" (i.e. their own home). It would seem to me, however, to be clearly saying that if you're in Tier 1, you cannot have visitors into your home from a higher control area i.e. those in the Tier 2 locale would be mixing w/ those outside of their own household. From a risk assessment perspective, why would anyone actively decide to do this, just to visit some friends/family?? From the Tier 1 perspective, probably OK (even if daft), but from the Tier 2 perspective, I don't think you should be doing this, so main responsibility w/ them I would suggest.

Maybe too many need each detail written down in black and white, which isn't going to happen. Some of this does require some thought, but everyone appears to think that UKG should be leading them by nose rings.

All the best to your daughters; hope they remain safe.

It is all an issue with the messaging. I agree that Tier 2 people should not be putting anyone else at risk by travelling to Tier 1, but for now it is not prohibited. HMG are caught in this trap of trying to be flexible, overcomplicating matters and then sending mixed messages. Since day one we have had ministers managing to contradict each other on a regular basis.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 16 Oct 2020, 1:29 pm

Thanks to everyone sending their best wishes - always appreciated.

I hope everyone else is at least surviving.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 16 Oct 2020, 3:36 pm

Seems more and more strange that the Government has not, until now, actually shifted to more local control. It would otherwise seem like the perfect opportunity to pass the blame.

So much endless rubbish. Reopening Nightingale hospitals but still not having any staff to actually man them.

I do find the while government performance or lack of, corruption, and failure to communicate well hugely depressing. Then we have Brexit too, and falling back on a Narnia style deal.

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Post by Pr4wn on Fri 16 Oct 2020, 4:19 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYmn76Y50Us

Jonathan Pie often hits the nail on the head.

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Post by guildfordbat on Fri 16 Oct 2020, 4:45 pm

lostinwales wrote:Seems more and more strange that the Government has not, until now, actually shifted to more local control. It would otherwise seem like the perfect opportunity to pass the blame.

So much endless rubbish. Reopening Nightingale hospitals but still not having any staff to actually man them.

I do find the while government performance or lack of, corruption, and failure to communicate well hugely depressing.
Then we have Brexit too, and falling back on a Narnia style deal.

Sadly, LinW, I find things much the same as you there. As a consequence, I suspect the Government have lost not only the dressing room but also much of the stadium. I don't think you can blame people if they are now prepared to do no more than obey the letter of the law, if even that.

Without an adequate (forget about world beating) test and trace system, I struggle to see any positive turnaround.

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Post by king_carlos on Fri 16 Oct 2020, 5:22 pm

Meanwhile Jonson has today told us to brace for a no deal Brexit due to the Earth shattering surprise that the EU haven't altered the negotiation position they've held since day one. That oven ready deal looking impressive as ever.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Fri 16 Oct 2020, 6:05 pm

Pr4wn wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYmn76Y50Us

Jonathan Pie often hits the nail on the head.

Bit OTT for my taste, but I cannot argue with the basis of the content.

Saw it again today, Boris asked a question on the tier system and what a person could do, answer - go and look it up on the government website. Either he didn't know, or he couldn't be bothered to explain it.

Anyone noticed how thin he is getting on top, needs to talk to his mate Trump about that. I am sure he has a cocktail of things to help hair growth. ........................the testicles of a bat, the gizzard of a crow, your wife's three day old urine, mix it all together, blend and apply daily.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 19 Oct 2020, 2:06 pm

My daughter's flatmate finally got a positive test result back yesterday evening, 9 days since she requested the initial test. I do wonder just how many people she came into contact with just before the symptoms started have been wandering around spreading to others?

Dido was in the Times on Saturday explaining that Test, Track and Trace was not a "silver bullet" and that they were doing a wonderful job. While I agree with the first bit, it is still the most important tool in managing the spread and allowing the country to try and stay open. The latter bit is frankly ridiculous.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 19 Oct 2020, 2:30 pm

I think it depends who gives the tests as well. I arranged one through the non nhs one and received results in 24 hours and was chased by track and trace with 48 hours as was postive. My wife had to get one through a locally agreed key workers pathway ie nhs run service and labs. Test and trace still havent got the result, also positive and despite being told have not asked for her contacts as as far as they've concerned shes not had a test. That was 2 weeks ago nearly so if she had chosen to sit tight and not let people know herself that's an awful lot of people wandering around with a good chance of covid.

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Post by Pr4wn on Mon 19 Oct 2020, 3:09 pm

Dido Harding's husband is the UK's Anti-Corruption Champion. Just let that sink in.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 20 Oct 2020, 12:50 pm

Pr4wn wrote:Dido Harding's husband is the UK's Anti-Corruption Champion. Just let that sink in.
Laugh In what Division? Infants' School Year 1 League? Nursery school?
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Post by Samo on Wed 21 Oct 2020, 11:15 am

Big fan of watching Andy Burnham find out that Manchester is getting £22m in Tier 3 relief. From reporters. Live on TV. Outstanding levels of leadership on display and he was right to call them out.

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Post by lostinwales on Wed 21 Oct 2020, 3:15 pm

Samo wrote:Big fan of watching Andy Burnham find out that Manchester is getting £22m in Tier 3 relief.  From reporters.  Live on TV.  Outstanding levels of leadership on display and he was right to call them out.

I wonder who 'disliked' that?

It is a big deal. AB's statement on why the £5m makes a difference is also brilliant, and it is very apparent how the government are trying to spin it as a political game. As is being pointed out frequently £5m is not a lot compared to where the government is throwing money. Although there are a few Manchester tory MP's blaming AB others are supporting him. Apparently the chairman of the 1922 committee is the conservative MP for Altrincham and Sale, which could make things interesting.

Back on Covid - the advice Manchester got was that tier 3 lockdown would not make enough of a difference to make the economic pain worthwhile. At the same time infection rates are coming down here, although hospitals are becoming dangerously full.




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Post by Derbymanc on Thu 22 Oct 2020, 9:37 am

All this has shown to me is just how utterly corrupt and inept our system of government is. 65 million is a drop in the Ocean considering how much has been squandered and it would have kept the North/south Divide from widening to massive levels.

I don't know if i'm just jaded with it all or my moods have gone but I hope the North just turns round and tells them to stick it all. Although Bolton are sucking up to try and get some money, it's ridiculous.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Fri 23 Oct 2020, 8:30 am

The UKG's handling of just about every thing to do with Covid has been an abject failure in one form or another, but it is the handling of the procurement that really riles me. Incompetence is just something that people are born with and cannot do much about, out and out cronyism is something else. It took me 5 minutes to find these issues on the procurement of PPE, all the contracts went to companies that have no expertise in either PPE or procurement of any kind, the result was that a significant proportion of the PPE was not fit for purpose. What is worse is that these companies, some just off the shelf could never have afforded to purchase the PPE or have access to sufficient credit, therefore they must have been receiving the monies up front.

The government awarded multimillion pound contracts for PPE to a number of obscure companies – including a sweet wholesaler and a ‘family office’ owned through an offshore holding firm.

Ayanda Capital Limited ”won” a £252.5 million contract to supply an undisclosed number of face masks to the Department of Health and Social Care in April, at the height of the coronavirus pandemic. The firm – which describes itself as “a London-based family office focused on a broad investment strategy” – is owned through a Mauritius-based holding company and headed by Tom Horlick, a former director of investment bank Kleinwort Benson.

Its website states that the company specialises in “currency trading, offshore property, private equity and trade financing”. The firm also appears to have existing links with the government. Andrew Mills – who, according to LinkedIn, has been a ‘Senior Board Adviser’ to Ayanda Capital since March – is one of twelve advisers to the Board of Trade, chaired by International Trade Secretary Liz Truss.

TED filings also reveal that the government purchased £18.5 million worth of facemasks from a company called Aventis Solutions Limited – an employment agency with net assets of £322.

The government has also awarded a £108 million PPE contract to PestFix – a little-known pest control firm based in Sussex, with just 16 members of staff. According to filings on Companies House, Crisp Websites Limited – which trades as PestFix – has cash assets of just over £19,000. It was reportedly the only bidder for the PPE contract.

PestFix – a little-known pest control firm based in Sussex, with just 16 members of staff – was given a £168.5 million contract to provide three different types of face masks in April, the company was forced to recall the FFP3 facemasks – which it had supplied for the NHS – in August, because they did not meet the safety “standard required”. Now it has emerged that PestFix also recalled the FFP2 masks that the government had purchased – “because they only meet the requirements of an FFP1 mask”. Two of the three types of mask supplied by PestFix turned out to be faulty.

According to filings on Companies House, Crisp Websites Limited – which trades as PestFix – has cash assets of just over £19,000. It was reportedly the only bidder for the PPE contract, supplying three types of face masks for use in the NHS

Now I wonder have these companies that provided all this substandard equipment which it would appear to have been paid for up front by the UKG handed back the money to the UKG?

On a separate note, Johnson has now apologised for the failings in our "World Class" test and trace system, some 5 months after he was told and shown it was a failure.

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Post by Derbymanc on Fri 23 Oct 2020, 12:39 pm

Is there absolutely nothing we can do about all this as I've never seen such blatant corruption in my life

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Post by Pr4wn on Fri 23 Oct 2020, 1:59 pm

Just spoke with my younger brother who is a tracer in the "world beating" system. He said the app and NHS test and trace don't share any data whatsoever.

He also said the vast majority of people he speaks to have already been contacted at least three times before.

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Post by Derbymanc on Fri 23 Oct 2020, 3:08 pm

Just seen on the news that if your contacted by the NHS App then your not eligible for government benefits, that's mine uninstalled now

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Post by 123456789. on Sun 25 Oct 2020, 12:35 am

Derbymanc wrote:Is there absolutely nothing we can do about all this as I've never seen such blatant corruption in my life

Allan Massie, a Scottish Conservative commentator, recently made the point that it was quite predictable that the most useless foreign secretary in recent memory would predictably be a terrible terrible PM. There should be no surprise that a man who has made built his career on mistruths, dog-whistle racism, disingenuous populism and high profile connections turned out to be completely useless when it came to the big occasion. In recent months Johnson has been unapologetic on his racism, he lied as a matter of course on Brexit and he's lying through his teeth on Covid, his populism has undermined the Covid attempts. He has given titles to his cronies and stood by them when they undermined the Covid regulations.
The fact is that our political parties are supposed to act as the gatekeepers for democracy, instead the Tory party put up a crook. Most people's friends have got worse off through Covid, his have got better off at our expense. Boris Johnson handed a £122 million contract to a one-month-old company. I've never voted Labour in my life, I've voted Tory more often than not, I wouldn't vote for Boris Johnson if you paid me. Or more accurately, I wouldn't vote for Boris Johnson if he paid me with taxpayers money (how he treats his mistresses, his garden bridges and not starving children). The guy is a crook plain and simple. We knew that in December. The age-old quote is that you get the politicians you deserve, but I don't think anyone deserves Alexander De Pfeffel Johnson.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 26 Oct 2020, 1:41 pm

Samo wrote:Big fan of watching Andy Burnham find out that Manchester is getting £22m in Tier 3 relief.  From reporters.  Live on TV.  Outstanding levels of leadership on display and he was right to call them out.
With all due respect, says Andy Burnham. He's a politician - take what he says at face-value at your peril.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 26 Oct 2020, 1:45 pm

Derbymanc wrote:All this has shown to me is just how utterly corrupt and inept our system of government is. 65 million is a drop in the Ocean considering how much has been squandered and it would have kept the North/south Divide from widening to massive levels.

I don't know if i'm just jaded with it all or my moods have gone but I hope the North just turns round and tells them to stick it all. Although Bolton are sucking up to try and get some money, it's ridiculous.
I think you're missing an important point. You can't have one special case for Manchester when Liverpool etc have accepted whatever outcome was arrived at from the model used. You could say that, maybe, UKG should have given over the £65mil and then upped the monies to Liverpool etc in equal proportion, but that isn't what people are moaning/arguing about as far as I can see.
Either way, UKG had him over a barrel - no matter what you think of it, his brinksmanship delayed money and Tier 3 restrictions being implemented, which may well have caused increased infections and hospital admissions.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 26 Oct 2020, 1:48 pm

Derbymanc wrote:Is there absolutely nothing we can do about all this as I've never seen such blatant corruption in my life
Vote them out in just over 4 years? Everyone will have forgotten about this then, though, I suspect. Most have the attention span of a fruit fly and will be more interested in the latest Love Island or the like.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 26 Oct 2020, 1:49 pm

Derbymanc wrote:Just seen on the news that if your contacted by the NHS App then your not eligible for government benefits, that's mine uninstalled now
Maybe check the veracity of that before jumping to conclusions?
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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Yesterday at 8:15 am

It now looks like their is no long term immunity to the bug, just because you have had it and recovered, you may still be susceptible. The antibodies seem to start dying off after a couple of months. This coming from researchers at Imperial College London.

Do the more knowledgeable on the subject think this will affect a vaccine?

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Post by Derbymanc Yesterday at 10:33 am

It was all over Sky News last week Navy with one of the advisors confirming it due to the fact that sometimes it tells people to self isolate when they shouldn't


https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-people-told-to-self-isolate-stopped-from-claiming-500-grant-by-flaw-in-contract-tracing-app-12111795

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Post by lostinwales Yesterday at 10:34 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:All this has shown to me is just how utterly corrupt and inept our system of government is. 65 million is a drop in the Ocean considering how much has been squandered and it would have kept the North/south Divide from widening to massive levels.

I don't know if i'm just jaded with it all or my moods have gone but I hope the North just turns round and tells them to stick it all. Although Bolton are sucking up to try and get some money, it's ridiculous.
I think you're missing an important point. You can't have one special case for Manchester when Liverpool etc have accepted whatever outcome was arrived at from the model used. You could say that, maybe, UKG should have given over the £65mil and then upped the monies to Liverpool etc in equal proportion, but that isn't what people are moaning/arguing about as far as I can see.
Either way, UKG had him over a barrel - no matter what you think of it, his brinksmanship delayed money and Tier 3 restrictions being implemented, which may well have caused increased infections and hospital admissions.

These things are open to interpretation. The AB narrative is that Liverpool for one had been railroaded into tier 3 before costing things or understanding reasons and consequences. It is also that he had been advised (by top Government science advisers ) that tier 3 would not make much difference to infection rates. Those had been high in Manchester (lots and lots of students) but were starting to tail off.

The support offered was less per head than that offered elsewhere.

AB's argument was that he had costed what it would take to support those whose income would be destroyed by tier 3, and it was £15m a month I believe (the £90m was for the next few months)

He was faced with being asked to put Manchest into tier 3 which had the effect of applying economic sanctions without enough support or likely benefits in controlling the virus. Of course he's a politician, but what is he supposed to do in the circumstances? You could just as easily say that the Government has been using Covid as an opportunity to undermine Labour controlled areas - this seems to be very much what is happening in London with the TFL and (now) Hammersmith bridge scandals.

From a personal point of view the party that Burnham and Khan are both members of should not be an issue. There will be plenty of areas where Labour politicians are not up to the mark, but these two are both good at their job. Also worth pointing out that although some Tory MP's in Manchester were sticking the boot in, many are supportive of AB in this area, even my own MP (an ERG member) who  also managed to vote against the government over FSM.

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Post by Derbymanc Yesterday at 10:38 am

Morning Navy, hope your well bud.

I don't know if it's just me, but this doesn't seem like the normal run of the mill backhanders politicians hand out. It seems like absolute blatant corruption to me so whilst the idea to vote them out is good I was more on about from a legal standpoint.

I have never felt more jaded about the whole thing in my life and i'm used to feeling this way half the time :-).

I think the problem they've got is Andy Burnham worked out exactly how much money they needed (again a drop in the ocean to whats been handed out in 'contracts') and had to fight his corner, it's a pity that the North didn't get together and tell BoJo to stick it as the area will be wrecked after christmas

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Post by Soul Requiem Yesterday at 10:43 am

Derbymanc wrote:Morning Navy, hope your well bud.

I don't know if it's just me, but this doesn't seem like the normal run of the mill backhanders politicians hand out. It seems like absolute blatant corruption to me so whilst the idea to vote them out is good I was more on about from a legal standpoint.

I have never felt more jaded about the whole thing in my life and i'm used to feeling this way half the time :-).

I think the problem they've got is Andy Burnham worked out exactly how much money they needed (again a drop in the ocean to whats been handed out in 'contracts') and had to fight his corner, it's a pity that the North didn't get together and tell BoJo to stick it as the area will be wrecked after christmas

How would that have helped anyone?

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Post by Pr4wn Yesterday at 11:00 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:Morning Navy, hope your well bud.

I don't know if it's just me, but this doesn't seem like the normal run of the mill backhanders politicians hand out. It seems like absolute blatant corruption to me so whilst the idea to vote them out is good I was more on about from a legal standpoint.

I have never felt more jaded about the whole thing in my life and i'm used to feeling this way half the time :-).

I think the problem they've got is Andy Burnham worked out exactly how much money they needed (again a drop in the ocean to whats been handed out in 'contracts') and had to fight his corner, it's a pity that the North didn't get together and tell BoJo to stick it as the area will be wrecked after christmas

How would that have helped anyone?

We could end up with a competent government.

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Post by Soul Requiem Yesterday at 11:05 am

That election in 2024 has a real bearing on the here and now doesn't it. The North isn't an autonomous region so one way or another restrictions were going to be enacted so suggesting they could have told the government to stick it is absurd.

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Post by lostinwales Yesterday at 11:17 am

Soul Requiem wrote:That election in 2024 has a real bearing on the here and now doesn't it. The North isn't an autonomous region so one way or another restrictions were going to be enacted so suggesting they could have told the government to stick it is absurd.

The thing is had the government given more local control to dealing with the virus I suspect responses would often be faster and more successful. Certainly local track and trace is likely to be very much cheaper and more effective than the Serco system is proving to be. Local control would have also allowed the Government to pass the buck.

None of this is easy, but so much of the behaviour of the 'rebelious North', as with subversive organisations such as the RHA, is all down to poor and often one way communication from the Government.

Covid is sweeping over the continent again despite the best efforts of well organised governments. Even Germany is beginning to feel the strain. We have it bad but we also lag behind the worst of Europe, so I expect things to get very much worse. Now we are faced with NHS staff shortages and now rumors of drug shortages also. We know a great deal more about how to treat the worst affected victims, but we are in for a grim winter.

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Post by Pr4wn Yesterday at 11:53 am

Soul Requiem wrote:That election in 2024 has a real bearing on the here and now doesn't it. The North isn't an autonomous region so one way or another restrictions were going to be enacted so suggesting they could have told the government to stick it is absurd.

File under: whoosh.

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Post by Soul Requiem Yesterday at 11:57 am

Pr4wn wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:That election in 2024 has a real bearing on the here and now doesn't it. The North isn't an autonomous region so one way or another restrictions were going to be enacted so suggesting they could have told the government to stick it is absurd.

File under: whoosh.

Another sparkling contribution, bravo.

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Post by Derbymanc Yesterday at 1:31 pm

Manchester did a good job of it by themselves for a few days, also embarrassing the government in the process as everyone was wondering how they were negotiating for tier 3 (as surely if it's a government decisions it comes in straight away).

It's pretty simple, every tier 3 area in the North says F you to the government and carries on as normal since a lot of people are at a good chance of being destitute over this.

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Post by Soul Requiem Yesterday at 1:33 pm

Derbymanc wrote:Manchester did a good job of it by themselves for a few days, also embarrassing the government in the process as everyone was wondering how they were negotiating for tier 3 (as surely if it's a government decisions it comes in straight away).

It's pretty simple, every tier 3 area in the North says F you to the government and carries on as normal since a lot of people are at a good chance of being destitute over this.

Then the government simply turns around and forces tier 3 restrictions on Manchester thus achieving nothing. Odd stance to take.

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Post by Derbymanc Yesterday at 1:44 pm

Not really Soul, it's shown Manchester itself that the government doesn't give a Poopie but their mayor does. It wasn't a massive amount of money and had been costed completely to cover people for the next 3 months. Any gains that the cons had their have ben wiped out completely and it once again shows that this government is more clueless than anyone originally though.

Think anyone (other than trump) would do better than BoJo and I was all for it, and as I've stated, don't think we've ever seen so much blatant cronyism and down right corruption as we have done through this.

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Post by Soul Requiem Yesterday at 1:52 pm

I'll back the costings of Rishi Sunak myself but each to their own, none of that answers the question of how Burnham could have turned around, told the government to F off and carry on as normal? The government can and rightfully did steamroll him in the knowledge that this had far reaching consequences through the whole of the UK and isn't isolated to just Manchester.

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Post by lostinwales Yesterday at 1:58 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:I'll back the costings of Rishi Sunak myself but each to their own, none of that answers the question of how Burnham could have turned around, told the government to F off and carry on as normal? The government can and rightfully did steamroll him in the knowledge that this had far reaching consequences through the whole of the UK and isn't isolated to just Manchester.

That is still hugely divisive. Even down to Sunak's costings, which I would bet are as opaque as everything else this government does. The government is dictating when they should be working with the regions.

And please say what these 'far reaching consequences' are?

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Post by Pr4wn Yesterday at 1:59 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:I'll back the costings of Rishi Sunak myself but each to their own, none of that answers the question of how Burnham could have turned around, told the government to F off and carry on as normal? The government can and rightfully did steamroll him in the knowledge that this had far reaching consequences through the whole of the UK and isn't isolated to just Manchester.

That is still hugely divisive. Even down to Sunak's costings, which I would bet are as opaque as everything else this government does. The government is dictating when they should be working with the regions.

And please say what these 'far reaching consequences' are?

Also as opaque as his trust which is undoubtedly held offshore and which he is naturally, refusing to disclose the details of.

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